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Someone who shares my opinions! I will say that Metroid sucks, and that everyone who likes it is stupid. And ugly.
If it didn't "force you to be a cartographer" then it's just Contra. Being a cartographer is awesome.
I'm not watching it yet, because I'll wait until I can watch your face in HD, but I didn't like Metroid that much. Then I downloaded Symphony of the Night on XBLA and hated it.
Everything you hate about Metroidvanias, I love. It brings out the OCD completionist side of me.
I can see why you would hate backtracking but for me I gain a ton of satisfaction from exploring every nook and cranny. Maybe thats why my gamerscore is 60k+. When I start something I NEED to do it 100% or not at all. Anything less is just failure.
I can see why you would hate backtracking but for me I gain a ton of satisfaction from exploring every nook and cranny. Maybe thats why my gamerscore is 60k+. When I start something I NEED to do it 100% or not at all. Anything less is just failure.
I love SotN, but I hate Metroid games. As for backtracking, SotN isn't a big offender. The teleporters really streamline travel. Now, if you wanna gripe about backtracking in Metroidvanias, then try HoD (Harmony of Dissonance), instead.
Backtracking ruins games for me. Especially in games where it is there for no real purpose but to lengthen the game.
The reason I think so many people, including myself, enjoy Metroidvanias is because of the sense of empowerment they give you. You may have to repeat the same environments later in the game, but you have new powers and the game plays differently. Because of the way you gain abilities in these games, you find yourself speeding through previously difficult segments. I think that's the reason I actually enjoy backtracking in Super Metroid but hate it in Metal Gear Solid 2. In Metal Gear Solid 2, you never get significantly stronger or gain any game changing powers (with the exception of the samurai sword). In MGS2, you still get caught by guards and go into alert mode no matter if you're an hour in or an hour from the end.
That's the biggest turn off in the metroid series, no matter much fun a boss is to hunt down and fight most of the game play consists of going back and forth between identical rooms, not that this changed in modern games, in Far Cry identical rooms become identical jungle parts, and so on.
Hurrah! I'm not alone in the world!
All my friends make fun of me because I dislike metroid and think it's bullshit. Can I have a hug?
All my friends make fun of me because I dislike metroid and think it's bullshit. Can I have a hug?
I think it's something to do with the cohesiveness that such backtracking can add to a world - like you mentioned it makes it feel like a much more organic place. If done right.
Personally, I always prefer games that have me getting to know one location really well over its course than a game with a bunch of interconnected levels. Examples of this include MGS1 (4 was all over the place and so I never felt connected with the world), Devil May Cry and Bioshock. But they pulled it off because when you found that door you couldn't get through before it was because the game had painted a giant red arrow over its location and basically held your hand until you got back there.
Metroidvanias don't do that. In expecting you to find the goal yourself they expect you to think a certain way and this inevitably breeds frustration when you get stumped or forget (I remember coming back to Prime after a 3 week hiatus due to a holiday, was 3/4 completed and yet couldn't get any further 'coes I'd completely forgotten where to go and gave up).
Personally, I always prefer games that have me getting to know one location really well over its course than a game with a bunch of interconnected levels. Examples of this include MGS1 (4 was all over the place and so I never felt connected with the world), Devil May Cry and Bioshock. But they pulled it off because when you found that door you couldn't get through before it was because the game had painted a giant red arrow over its location and basically held your hand until you got back there.
Metroidvanias don't do that. In expecting you to find the goal yourself they expect you to think a certain way and this inevitably breeds frustration when you get stumped or forget (I remember coming back to Prime after a 3 week hiatus due to a holiday, was 3/4 completed and yet couldn't get any further 'coes I'd completely forgotten where to go and gave up).
I think this is simply solved by asking:
Are you OCD/Attentive? You'll like Metroidvanias
Are you simple? You'll hate them
They're a different genre (2D-3D action exploration) and aren't for everyone.
Backtracking sucks, but Metroid/Castlevania barely had them. When you went back to previous areas, you blew up a wall you couldn't previously enter, and opened up a whole new area. Saying those games were backtracking when the overlap was like 30 seconds is a bit odd. Now, DMC4......
Are you OCD/Attentive? You'll like Metroidvanias
Are you simple? You'll hate them
They're a different genre (2D-3D action exploration) and aren't for everyone.
Backtracking sucks, but Metroid/Castlevania barely had them. When you went back to previous areas, you blew up a wall you couldn't previously enter, and opened up a whole new area. Saying those games were backtracking when the overlap was like 30 seconds is a bit odd. Now, DMC4......
I think that some gamers just have some kind of OCD when it comes to games and going back to do every little thing feels accomplishing to them. That said, I hated Metroid for those same reasons and I have that kind of OCD. Also Venture Brothers is just good, man.
I don't have any sort of logical rebuttal to this. I derive some sort of intense satisfaction exploring and finally earning an ability that will allow me to collect a treasure I've known about for awhile. I've also never been one to complain about backtracking in any game...
I don't know. I like both Metroid and Castlevania, but as Jumbo said, they will be like Contra or something.
Backtracking is something really good when it's done with some elegance. Like, there are some games that pretend that the previous areas and levels are in fact new ones. Also, Metroid and Castlevania doesn't have different levels but a single huge one. Actually, that means that they divide their progress on how the player collects the upgrades. It's not re-use of the same level, because the game only has one and it really takes a lot of work on the level design to make an efficient backtracking game. That's why we loved Metroid and Castlevania. They feel like we actually explore the stage's structure and an explorer must remember all sorts of things or, at least, he has to turn back to see if he forgot something that can get with those new abilities.
It's the first time I don't agree with you Anthony, but that's ok I guess. Different opinios are always welcome ^_^
Backtracking is something really good when it's done with some elegance. Like, there are some games that pretend that the previous areas and levels are in fact new ones. Also, Metroid and Castlevania doesn't have different levels but a single huge one. Actually, that means that they divide their progress on how the player collects the upgrades. It's not re-use of the same level, because the game only has one and it really takes a lot of work on the level design to make an efficient backtracking game. That's why we loved Metroid and Castlevania. They feel like we actually explore the stage's structure and an explorer must remember all sorts of things or, at least, he has to turn back to see if he forgot something that can get with those new abilities.
It's the first time I don't agree with you Anthony, but that's ok I guess. Different opinios are always welcome ^_^
Why do people think M:OM is a 2D Metroid. The trailer was mostly cutscenes with splashes of gameplay which is hard to identify.
Anyway, I don't think there is much to say. Everything you hate, I love. You don't have to enjoy every game type, Anthony. Sometimes, you just don't like something. To this day the only FPS's that I've actually liked since Doom-ish games have been the Metroid Prime games (and a little the N64 shooters).
Anyway, I don't think there is much to say. Everything you hate, I love. You don't have to enjoy every game type, Anthony. Sometimes, you just don't like something. To this day the only FPS's that I've actually liked since Doom-ish games have been the Metroid Prime games (and a little the N64 shooters).
This is really interesting, because I've never even really thought of the backtracking in Metroidvania games as equivalent to the backtracking in other games. As much as I love the MGS series, I got frustrated any time I had to backtrack in any of the games. I guess that just ties back to my other post, though. I'm the opposite of Anthony, I ALWAYS feel like I'm making progress in Metroidvanias. I different people think of games differently. And for the record, I don't just like these games because of nostalgia. The first Metroidvania game I played was Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow.
Backtracking that reviewers complain about in MOST games is forcing the player to return to a place they've JUST pretty much finished to find a key or something so it makes you feel like if you had KNOWN that you had to pick up that THING 10 rooms back then you would already be done with this crap.
In a Metroidvania game, you basically just return to an area when you have new powers and are more powerful, essentially making the level a demonstration of how much more awesome you are because it USED to be kind of difficult.
Also, as someone else said, I don't really think there's that much backtracking in SotN since most of the time you just teleport back to another area and go through a now accessible door which opens an entirely new area to you.
I'm guessing you're not the "completionist" type of game player either? Because all of the additional backtracking in SotN is to obtain secret stuff that either gives you new abilities or new endings or new weapons. Only the new areas are necessary, and the rest of the stuff is just a bonus.
Don't you like secrets?
In a Metroidvania game, you basically just return to an area when you have new powers and are more powerful, essentially making the level a demonstration of how much more awesome you are because it USED to be kind of difficult.
Also, as someone else said, I don't really think there's that much backtracking in SotN since most of the time you just teleport back to another area and go through a now accessible door which opens an entirely new area to you.
I'm guessing you're not the "completionist" type of game player either? Because all of the additional backtracking in SotN is to obtain secret stuff that either gives you new abilities or new endings or new weapons. Only the new areas are necessary, and the rest of the stuff is just a bonus.
Don't you like secrets?
*by "Castlevania barely had backtracking" I meant Symphony of the Night simply is not an offender. It has more original areas than nearly any other 2D game, and the inverse castle is a completely different experience. It's backtracking at its most minimal that you can find it.
I can see where you are coming from on some of these issues. But I feel the opposite of how you feel about how it takes away your feeling of progression. I hate when action/adventure games give you new items or powers only when those items and powers are needed to overcome an obstacle directly after you obtain them. One such example of these is in Zelda games when you obtain the bow, you know that the boss of that dungeon is going to be the boss that you kill with the bow. Those are the kinds of situations that, if they weren't rectified by the ability to backtrack to a previous location and solve a puzzle using the new item, would make me feel like I'm not really getting anywhere. All i would be doing is completing a series of scripted events where each powerup only exists as a means to overcome a single obstacle of gameplay. That, in my mind, is lazy level design. But instead, the makers choose to sprinkle the game world with secrets and hidden goodies. Completing these goodies and secrets makes me feel like i am actually getting somewhere in the game, rather than just following the bread crumb trail that the developer has left for me. Although i can understand frustration when the developer requires backtracking as an essential part of gameplay. Like your example of metroid prime, i enjoy going back and collecting extra missles and health upgrades, but i don't like it when i have to go back to advance the story. So....this comment was alot longer than i had originally planned it to be.
I absolutely adore metroidvania's, and games like Dead Space, or DMC, with a little bit of backtracking I don't really mind. In those games the backtracking is not very tedious, not annoying, and I like to return to old levels, it makes me think that the developers didn't just throw away those areas once you go through them, and when done right, backtracking makes the world more immersive.
As for CV and Metroid games, you're right, you are a cartographer. But I for one love that and keeping track of all the doors, secret passages, what abilities let me go where, and stuff, that is awesome to me. When you revisit an area you're almost always much stronger, thereby making you feel super cool as you just plow through al the old enemies who gave you such a hard time before. Admit it, the clock tower in SOTN is actually FUN once you get the crissaegrim.
As for the rewards, yes sometimes all you get is a stupid potion, but most of the time, you'll get something neat. Also, usually you don't even have to go through all the secret passages, most metroidvania's are designed in such a way that the pathway's to continue the story are clear and you'll always know that it's the way you must go. Plus once you get 100% completion and fill out your map, it is very satisfying.
I never really thought that people would dislike metroidvania's well at least the 2d ones. I do know people who got turned off from Metroid Prime for the same reasons as you Anthony. I guess they were just expecting something different. I knew the Prime games would have a focus on exploration and isolation, and I enjoyed them for that. Maybe if there was a co-op metroidvania you'd like it Anthony... isn't Shadow Complex going to have co-op?
As for CV and Metroid games, you're right, you are a cartographer. But I for one love that and keeping track of all the doors, secret passages, what abilities let me go where, and stuff, that is awesome to me. When you revisit an area you're almost always much stronger, thereby making you feel super cool as you just plow through al the old enemies who gave you such a hard time before. Admit it, the clock tower in SOTN is actually FUN once you get the crissaegrim.
As for the rewards, yes sometimes all you get is a stupid potion, but most of the time, you'll get something neat. Also, usually you don't even have to go through all the secret passages, most metroidvania's are designed in such a way that the pathway's to continue the story are clear and you'll always know that it's the way you must go. Plus once you get 100% completion and fill out your map, it is very satisfying.
I never really thought that people would dislike metroidvania's well at least the 2d ones. I do know people who got turned off from Metroid Prime for the same reasons as you Anthony. I guess they were just expecting something different. I knew the Prime games would have a focus on exploration and isolation, and I enjoyed them for that. Maybe if there was a co-op metroidvania you'd like it Anthony... isn't Shadow Complex going to have co-op?
All the frustrations you've mentioned with Metroid style games are completely valid. I've never played one of those games and not been infuriated at one point by feeling absolutely stuck, and I've had to make two or three runs through the entire world available to me until I stumble upon the next progression point I'd been overlooking. However, the pleasures these types of game offer (and they're some of my favorites) generally make the pain they cause worth while for me.
I think there's a simple improvement these games could make that would stop at least some of the frustration. I would love for them to add a "journey paint" mode, where you can flip on a switch and it starts to paint the rooms you've been through on the map screen. Most games include a rudimentary form of this that charts areas you've been through once, but I would love to use this function for my own purposes. Let's say I need to find hover boots. I turn on the "journey paint" option while I'm looking for them. I can easily track which rooms I've looked through for just specifically the hover boots. When I've found that object, I can erase my hover boots journey paint and start a new journey paint that records rooms where I've tried my new hover boots out.
This doesn't address your issue with backtracking at all, but I feel it would make the backtracking a less taxing prospect and enhance the sense of adventuring most of us enjoy with these games. Maybe the journey paint already exists, and I'd love to be pointed toward a game that implements it well.
I think there's a simple improvement these games could make that would stop at least some of the frustration. I would love for them to add a "journey paint" mode, where you can flip on a switch and it starts to paint the rooms you've been through on the map screen. Most games include a rudimentary form of this that charts areas you've been through once, but I would love to use this function for my own purposes. Let's say I need to find hover boots. I turn on the "journey paint" option while I'm looking for them. I can easily track which rooms I've looked through for just specifically the hover boots. When I've found that object, I can erase my hover boots journey paint and start a new journey paint that records rooms where I've tried my new hover boots out.
This doesn't address your issue with backtracking at all, but I feel it would make the backtracking a less taxing prospect and enhance the sense of adventuring most of us enjoy with these games. Maybe the journey paint already exists, and I'd love to be pointed toward a game that implements it well.
This is more dribble than I care to read. Point being... Metroidvanias ROCK! If you dont like em just dont play them and STFU.
You're right. I think it's a relic of the past. People only realize how annoying it is when they apply it to more modern games(i.e. Dead Space)
Knytt rocks! I love just staring at the world but I do kinda get bored which is why I don't complete the games in one sitting.
Knytt rocks! I love just staring at the world but I do kinda get bored which is why I don't complete the games in one sitting.
I guess this is the way I think about it: there are two types of progression in games, the progression of your character getting stronger/better or changing in any way and the progression of moving towards your final goal. Maybe there are different terms for these, I don't know. Anyway, Metroidvanias focus on the first type of progression I mentioned, the progression of your character. I hate to bring up MGS again, but I just played through all of the games recently so it's on my mind. In Metal Gear Solid 3 you almost always feel like you're progressing the mission forward, but Snake doesn't change from a gameplay standpoint. You use the same CQC techniques the whole game, and the attacks have the same effects, and yet at the end of the game *SPOILERS* you can use CQC to best The Boss. That doesn't really make sense from a gameplay perspective. Well, I'm not even talking about Metroidvanias anymore so I guess I'll just leave you guys with this unless someone responds. Thanks for actually reading this.
Side Note: all games that involve heavy exploration such as Metroid or Elder Scrolls and Fallout should include some sort of function that allows you to take notes on the map.
Yay, someone who thinks like me! Wait, no... I love Metroids and Castlevanias, to bad I can't express exactly why, except that backtracking is not much different to what's done in adventure games and RPGs, generally it leads to more powerups who open up different gameplay opportunities in different and cool environments. Its quite enjoyable.
Man, you crossed the line bringing up Venture Bros.
Also Metroid Prime 3 was amazing and really cut down backtracking shit with the spaceship / landing pad system.
Also Metroid Prime 3 was amazing and really cut down backtracking shit with the spaceship / landing pad system.
I feel it's more like watching the world (pardon the poetic imagery) unfold like a flower (radially) rather than like a tapestry (linearly). It also makes sense from a believability standpoint that "Why would they put the doors that could only be opened with ITEMX after the point when you get ITEMX?" That would defeat the purpose of locking them.
In another sense it gives you something visual to work for. For example a green door in super metroid eggs you on to find whatever weapon will open it. Instead of getting a weapon and then finding the door it would open after the fact.
I can see how this can be frustrating in the same way people think LOST is frustrating. You're given a mystery that you have to keep in mind as you progress to make sense of the overall narrative.
In another sense it gives you something visual to work for. For example a green door in super metroid eggs you on to find whatever weapon will open it. Instead of getting a weapon and then finding the door it would open after the fact.
I can see how this can be frustrating in the same way people think LOST is frustrating. You're given a mystery that you have to keep in mind as you progress to make sense of the overall narrative.
Real life exploring doesn't involve reaching a cave, and not being able to get in because you left your pickaxe on another island. When you're exploring, you have your items. Metroidvanias, to me, remind me of badly arranged scout trips. NO ONE IS PREPARED.
I feel like Metroid (never played Castlevania) is very much an action puzzle game. In the same way that Monkey Island would pose some form of elaborate puzzle that I had to figure out, Metroid does the same thing, except that instead of clicking on random items and trying to find where they needed to go, I have an elaborate world that gives me the same thing.
The back tracking in Metroid Prime pissed me the fuck off, but that's why I stopped playing them. I found that in the GBA Metroids, if there was back tracking, I could do it quickly and fairly easily, because I knew how to get past things.
If you play Metroid feeling that you have to go everywhere and do everything, you will want to kill yourself out of repetition. If an area is blocked off, leave it be for now, because eventually you'll stumble back across it with the weapons to move past it.
Also, usually if there's only a couple health things in a room, there's a secret block that gives a better upgrade in the same room.
The back tracking in Metroid Prime pissed me the fuck off, but that's why I stopped playing them. I found that in the GBA Metroids, if there was back tracking, I could do it quickly and fairly easily, because I knew how to get past things.
If you play Metroid feeling that you have to go everywhere and do everything, you will want to kill yourself out of repetition. If an area is blocked off, leave it be for now, because eventually you'll stumble back across it with the weapons to move past it.
Also, usually if there's only a couple health things in a room, there's a secret block that gives a better upgrade in the same room.
It's satisfying to conquer an entire world one corridor at a time. Backtracking never bothers me as long as I have a totally sweet new upgrade that will let me kick ass in new and exciting ways and reach places that I couldn't before.
I'm pretty much the target audience for Metroidvanias and I'm okay with this.
I'm pretty much the target audience for Metroidvanias and I'm okay with this.
Why do all your rants come off as condescending?
Its hard to watch them because you come off as such a know-it all regardless of your like or dislike for what you are discussing.
Ah well, at its core its just more of your "everything popular sucks BUT CHECK OUT THIS INDIE GAME" drivel you spew constantly.
Its hard to watch them because you come off as such a know-it all regardless of your like or dislike for what you are discussing.
Ah well, at its core its just more of your "everything popular sucks BUT CHECK OUT THIS INDIE GAME" drivel you spew constantly.
Backtracking is bullshit.
One reason why I loved and hated Legend of Zelda Phantom Hourglass was because it allowed you to take notes on the map with your stylus. You could even write exactly what you would need. For some parts of the game, this was required. With this feature, backtracking wasn't so bad.
But then the game makes you to go through the STUPID temple of the Ocean King like 10 times. Not only was there a time limit and you had to go through the parts that you already had done but it forced horrid stealth gameplay on you.
Fuck that noise. I never beat the game.
One reason why I loved and hated Legend of Zelda Phantom Hourglass was because it allowed you to take notes on the map with your stylus. You could even write exactly what you would need. For some parts of the game, this was required. With this feature, backtracking wasn't so bad.
But then the game makes you to go through the STUPID temple of the Ocean King like 10 times. Not only was there a time limit and you had to go through the parts that you already had done but it forced horrid stealth gameplay on you.
Fuck that noise. I never beat the game.
Honestly, by harping on backtracking, you're harping on practically the entire RPG, Adventure, and Action Adventure genres, not to mention major games in other genres (Devil May Cry, Super Mario 64, Many games in the Mega Man series, etc.). I don't think you've thought this through, really. I think you're trying to assign rational reasons for irrational tastes.
Keep in mind that, when I call your taste irrational, it's because it's a taste. My tastes are irrational too. I don't give a crap about Halo or Grand Theft Auto. It's just not my taste. Metroidvanias just don't match your taste. That doesn't mean the game developers are lazy or that fans of the games are heroically patient.
Keep in mind that, when I call your taste irrational, it's because it's a taste. My tastes are irrational too. I don't give a crap about Halo or Grand Theft Auto. It's just not my taste. Metroidvanias just don't match your taste. That doesn't mean the game developers are lazy or that fans of the games are heroically patient.
I think you've answered your own questions as to why you don't like this style of gameplay.
It revolves around being a completion-ist, getting satisfaction from doing every possible thing in the game, as well as satisfying those urges to remember inaccessible areas, and later come back to them to see what treasures they hold.
However backtracking is not always fun. Like you stated, if you remember an inaccessible place for hours, and finally return to it after getting the necessary upgrade and you get some shitty reward for your trouble, it feels like a kick to the dick.
It revolves around being a completion-ist, getting satisfaction from doing every possible thing in the game, as well as satisfying those urges to remember inaccessible areas, and later come back to them to see what treasures they hold.
However backtracking is not always fun. Like you stated, if you remember an inaccessible place for hours, and finally return to it after getting the necessary upgrade and you get some shitty reward for your trouble, it feels like a kick to the dick.
Its a perplexing topic really. I think the reason it is forgiven in metroidvanias is because you were not really guided in the direction of the newly accessible area. Other games beat you over the head with it. Let me explain.
There is a sense of satisfaction in having a good enough memory to return to an area and find a newly accessible passage. Although it is false, it makes the player feel smart for deducing, "That grate I saw an hour ago, I'll bet that new power I got will let me go through it!".
There is a sense of satisfaction in having a good enough memory to return to an area and find a newly accessible passage. Although it is false, it makes the player feel smart for deducing, "That grate I saw an hour ago, I'll bet that new power I got will let me go through it!".
Funnily enough, I do love the Metroid series, but my favorite game happens to be Metroid Fusion. I remember loving the game for giving Metroid a little more of a fleshed-out story, rather than just saying "Hey, evil stuff is happening, go down to planet whatever and hunt for artifacts for two hours!" Granted, everyone else at that time were bashing the game, saying "Waaah! Metroid shouldn't be mission/story based! We want our mindless exploration back!"
Personally, I love Metroid. I will never stop loving Metroid. Same goes for Castlevania, though I still prefer the old level-based Castlevanias rather than the Metroidvania route they went later. Seriously, the only two good "Metroidvania" games are Symphony and Aria of Sorrow, though Portrait of Ruin does get an honorable mention for trying to change things up a just a little. Still, gimme Castlevania III any day of the week.
Now, as for the appeal of backtracking, I think it's less opening up new areas, for me, it's really more coming back to a place that gave me trouble with a bunch of sweet new powerups, tearing ass through formerly tough monsters who now have strength equivalent to a cardboard cutout and shouting "YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT! FUCK WITH ME NOW!"
...or is that just me?
Personally, I love Metroid. I will never stop loving Metroid. Same goes for Castlevania, though I still prefer the old level-based Castlevanias rather than the Metroidvania route they went later. Seriously, the only two good "Metroidvania" games are Symphony and Aria of Sorrow, though Portrait of Ruin does get an honorable mention for trying to change things up a just a little. Still, gimme Castlevania III any day of the week.
Now, as for the appeal of backtracking, I think it's less opening up new areas, for me, it's really more coming back to a place that gave me trouble with a bunch of sweet new powerups, tearing ass through formerly tough monsters who now have strength equivalent to a cardboard cutout and shouting "YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT! FUCK WITH ME NOW!"
...or is that just me?
I honestly hate metroid and castelvania. Backtracking always makes me feel
like I'm missing stuff in an rpg, and trying to remember all the
stupid shit is overwhelming. I honestly like the "linear" or GTA-esque level
design. Sure I like little nic nacs sprinkled throughout the world, I'm
also an OCD item hoarder, and backtracking makes it a little tedious.
like I'm missing stuff in an rpg, and trying to remember all the
stupid shit is overwhelming. I honestly like the "linear" or GTA-esque level
design. Sure I like little nic nacs sprinkled throughout the world, I'm
also an OCD item hoarder, and backtracking makes it a little tedious.
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