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Rev Rant: gaaaaaaaaaaaaay

3:00 PM on 11.04.2009   |   Anthony Burch


Every week, sort of, features editor (Reverend) Anthony Burch discusses games and gamer culture in his "Rev Rant" video series.

Sorry about the lack of a rant last week. Camera was in the shop.

This week, I'd like to talk about portrayals of homosexuality in games and how they tend to be either really bad, or underwhelming despite good intentions on the part of the writers.

Relatively mild spoilers ensue for Persona 4, GTA IV, Polaris, and Handle With Care. Click above to watch the video, assuming none of that bothers you.

And, er, try to ignore the mirrored credits for this fanvid playing over the end of the video.








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126 comments | showing # 1 to 50
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f16freek's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:05
f16freek
This post is gay...
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:07
Messer
Yes, it would be nice to have fun and original characters in games.
Kif 's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:08
Kif
The controversy (Or I suppose reaction) around Handle With Care reminds me of the reaction to The Prodigy's "Smack My Bitch Up" video. I auppose you could say it's somewhat warranted because the norm would be to assume it's a heterosexual relationship, and you're essentially forced to rethink everything you did and saw before once you learn that you're a gay man too.

On the other, it's a game. It's a very well made game and goes to great lengths to make the player genuinely ponder their experience, but it is a game. It doesn't define the player's lifestyle, so the fact that so many people were up in arms about it kind of confuses me.
Chris Carter's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:09
Chris Carter
To be perfectly honest, I liked Gay Tony, but he didn't really act that gay over the course of the game. It kind of reminds me of Robin William's character from Birdcage: who wasn't all that interesting compared to Nathan Lane.
Onlineatron's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:09
Onlineatron
Wait... I watched this several hours ago; How come it's only just up?

I personally don't think a character's sexuality matters a lot.

If your gay//bi/transexual it won't matter to the gameplay unless the story/gameplay revolves around romantic relationships and prejudice.

Which I can't see an action game doing.

Same goes with Jack Harkness. All that matter is his personality and capabilities... his appeal (unless i'm seriously missing some conflicting feelings in my subconscious) has nothing to do with his sexual orientation.
falinter's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:13
falinter
Yeah, that always seems to be the case but when people actually learn to write better shit for games, I guess thats what we are stuck with.

Also, let me take this opportunity to say that I HATE that google video ad that plays at the beginning AND end of every video.

Also, also, nice beard.
Onlineatron's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:13
Onlineatron
@Messer

Perhaps your right.

Maybe in a way you don't quite understand (or perhaps your so smart you managed to convey everything you wanted to say in such a condensed perfect sentence) that's what the Anthony is asking for.

Having a gay character is just an example, perhaps what Anthony is asking for is having unique interesting characters but this is the way he chooses to express himself.
Matthew Blake's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:13
Matthew Blake
@Online: Right, that's what Ant's saying. There SHOULD be more characters where they happen to be gay, but it's not their defining characteristic. The fact that it has no bearing on the gameplay is a good thing; it means that there really is no big difference between being a straight action hero and a gay one.

Speaking of which, how many action heroes are actually gay? Does Top Gun count?
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:14
Messer
@Magnalon Facepalm. And how does a gay person act?
Shadowiii's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:15
Shadowiii
Someone should bring up Enchanted Arms. That portrayal was downright offensive in nearly every way.
And the game was offensive too, but that was mostly because it sucked.
Darren Nakamura's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:15
Darren Nakamura
I don't think that other forms of media and entertainment have done much better, honestly. You've got one great example of a cool character who happens to be gay in television, but you neglect to mention the hundreds and hundreds who are nothing more than painful stereotypes.

I don't disagree that games and gamers probably should come to terms with the idea that sexual orientation is largely irrelevant when defining somebody's personality, but I don't think that games are necessarily behind the times.

If you consider a lot of the more recent western RPGs (Fable, Mass Effect...), they allow the player to be hetero-, bi-, or homosexual, and the player's choice in that doesn't affect his mannerisms, personality, or "coolness." Frankly, if you take these examples into account, an argument could be made that games are at the forefront of equality regarding sexual orientation.
Kraid's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:16
Kraid
As long as there is hot lesbian action in my games I'm all gay for that.
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:18
Messer
@Onlineatron, thank you.
MuddBstrd's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:21
MuddBstrd
Anthony, thank you so much for this awesome rant. As a gay male myself, this is something I have really, really wanted out of video games but so far they have failed to deliver.

I too was really disappointed with Kanji's storyline in Persona 4. At first, I got really excited when the character is introduced and they drop hints, and then when the player sees Kanji's shadow world and the 'stereotypical gay male' is the part of himself that Kanji is repressing and afraid of. I thought this was going to be a really excellent use of the shadow world plot device. However, when it wrapped up and the game gives this half-ass, ambiguous explanation of Kanji and his sexuality, I was really disappointed. Up until that point, it looked like Kanji was going through a lot of that I went through in high school when I was in the closet. The fact that the story had so much promise and then failed to deliver was very disappointing and frustrating.
Bob Muir's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:21
Bob Muir
Sorry, this isn't directly to you Anthony (good vid though):

Dear Destructoid Video Player,

There is no reason why the exact same ad should play again once I've finished watching the video. I don't like ads beforehand, but I can tolerate them; you gotta make money where you can.

However, when I am watching from the mainpage, and I've finished with your video and want to move on to reading some of the other fine articles, it is infuriating to have that exact same ad from before start playing as soon as the video finishes and be completely unable to make it stop aside from navigating away from the page. I remember other Rev Rants where I missed the quick text blurbs at the end and wanted to rewind the video just a few seconds to see them, but because that stupid ad started playing afterward, I had to wait another 30 seconds just to see three seconds of video.

tl;dr: We see the ad before the video. We don't need to see the same goddamn ad after the video as well.

Regards,

Necros
Chris Carter's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:25
Chris Carter
@Messer
They act like a normal person, with all the same basic rights as any other human being on the planet.

This is entertainment. I prefer to be entertained. No facepalm needed.
mourning orange's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:29
mourning orange
I was going to say everything Necros just said, so thanks Necros.
lem's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:30
lem
Seems so weird that someone who enjoyed Handle With Care and went "oh noes i iz gay' would then go to the effort of complaining. It's not like it's a mainstream game. I guess that's homophobia for you.
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:32
Messer
@Magnalon Gay Tony was still an interesting and entertaining character, to me anyways.
P-Dude's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:36
P-Dude
I never had a problem with Kanji remaining unknown in terms of sexual preference, because I took it as him not knowing himself. Whether or not that's just lazy dancing around the subject on Atlus' part is up to you.

I figured that Kanji originally thought he was gay since he had an odd attraction to Naoto, the presumed male; also that he prefers home ec over sports and things like that in general (LOL STEREOTYPE). However, he finds out that Naoto is actually a girl, and starts to re-think everything. It puts him in sort of a limbo, where he likes Naoto, who is a girl, but he also liked her when he THOUGHT she was a guy (which is also when you enter his dungeon of gay fabulousness). Anyway, that's my opinion on Kanji.
DougCL's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:37
DougCL
in this book im reading called The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan, the main character is gay. its set in the wizards and dragons style of fantasy realm. he has this crazy sword and is a badass fighter, he was in the military and beat back this invasion of lizard people and sh*t like that. he doesnt talk in a lisp, or dress like a girl, or any of the other typical gay stereotypes. although the descriptions of gay sex are kind of over the top, it seemed like he wasnt trying to do the whole "look at this gay guy, see how gay he is?" thing. it was really the first time ive run into a character who i would like to be like or play as or know more about. it sucks that that is the case.

i just realized i re-typed everything rev just said about why that guy in doctor who or whatever is cool, just with a different example.

in short, i agree.
ninjalegend's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:37
ninjalegend
I don't think the sexual orientation of a character should come up unless it is relevant to gameplay/story. I did not know one of my friends from work was gay for months, until he told me. For me, that would make the character seem a little more believable. The problem with games and tv is that the main character usually has over the top traits. Extreme manliness, extreme tough guy, extreme sexy woman, extremely competitive, ad nausium. It's not just gay people. It's a stigma of media entertainment.
shizknightOLD's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:42
shizknightOLD
Excellent rant Anthony! One thing I'd add is that in the context of video games and gamers it's exponentially more acceptable to be a gay female than a gay male. I really hate that. This holds true everywhere in culture I think, but is especially prevalent to me in the gaming world(where there's a backlash for the main character being a gay male, but accolades for a lesbian scene in Mass Effect). It's not uncommon to hear a male calling another male a fag on Xbox Live, but mention a couple of girls making out and suddenly that same male is all for some gay action. I find that pretty damned annoying. As a straight male with some gay friends(both male and female), I do find it uber annoying when I see these things because having those gay friends makes it all stand out that much more.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:43
Tubatic
I haven't finished Gay Tony yet, but I think the character is interesting and, in that, entertaining. He's legendary, but coping (in extreme ways) with being a social has-been and a wavering business mogul. I don't think I'd want to play as him, but he makes playing Luis more interesting
kinneas123's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:45
kinneas123
You wanna know a game series that does a great job having people who just happen to be gay? The Sims.

To be fair, you control your characters and can make them do whatever you want, but that's the first game I remember where homosexuality was even allowed, let alone put on a level playing field with heterosexuality. Bravo, Will Wright.
Eficent's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:47
Eficent
I honestly wish we could go back to the days where the story of a game wasn't crap. Because once story became popular we get people who argue what's right and what's wrong. I'm of the very old mindset that I'm playing games for a fun. I don't want you're stupid messages pushed on me. Give me a goal and tell me to go at it.

It's obvious though that some people like being told a story and those games aren't for me. Just like some people like having sex with their own sex instead of with the opposite. Hell I have nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's a damn fine way to control over-population. Just don't expect a bunch of heterosexual guys to portray homosexuality in a positive light.

People are afraid of what they don't understand. And as a straight guy, nothing seems more mind boggling than a sexual attraction to other guys. I guess we could all hold hands and hope that humanity sees that all people like different things and we live in one big peaceful utopia. Right after butterflies fly out of my nose and I start farting diamonds.

I guess what I'm trying to say in all this verbal diarrhea is that you can't expect people to see eye to eye. People who like some things will never understand why some people like another. And it's rather stupid to assume that they will portray anything they don't like in anything but negative light.
Matte G's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:49
Matte G
Yeah I too hate people using terms and slurs that are directed at Gay people.

Like this one podcast I listen to the host uses the term 'Indie Fag' all the time and it really bugs me........ oh that would be you.

HYPOCRITE
GoldenGamerXero's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:51
GoldenGamerXero
I would just make a "normal" character then go the whole Dumbledore approach where after everyone's sold on the guy tell them he's gay. A game where a gay character is just a normal main character than doesn't have to mention he takes it up the arse every five seconds. The best way to do it would be just have him said it one single time in a place where it's appropriate and never really bring it up again.
fundando's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:53
fundando
Yjere are plenty of characters in video games that could be gay but unless is it relevant to the story it shouldn;t even come up.
DJDuffy 's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:54
DJDuffy
hey Anthony, I totally agree with pretty much everything you said, but it would have been nice if you had given me some credit for what I'm assuming was your inspiration for this Rev Rant. By this, I'm referring to my cblog post about Nier: Replicant

Let me paraphrase myself: "That’s one thing I love so much about the television show “Torchwood”. The character of “Jack Harkness” among others, is bisexual, not because of any magical reason or it is not the centerpiece of the show. He just happens to like men and women equally and that’s all there is to it. There isn’t some elaborate back story as to the why or who’s, it just is."

Now, I'm glad that you expanded on my idea and gave other examples. If I am totally in the wrong and it is just a complete coincidence that we both had the same ideas, please correct me. Thanks!
Havoc Fang's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:54
Havoc Fang
Once you get into it, Ballad of Gay Tony shows Tony off in a very balanced way. He's not special, he's just as fucked up as everybody else seems to be, it just so happens that he holds Luis' metaphorical leash.
Messer's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:54
Messer
@Matte G, Ohhh, Snap!
kefkaesque's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 15:57
kefkaesque
@GoldenGamerXero

I don't know why a characters sexuality often even needs to be mentioned at all though. Sure everyone assumes Master Chief is straight because of how manly he is and because of the games he's in, but it's not like he ever goes around telling random characters HEY GUESS WHAT, I LIKE VAGINA.

Maybe some characters in past games were gay, we just don't know because their sexuality often has nothing to do with anything.
JulianProxy's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:02
JulianProxy
Great video. I think that given the unfortunate election results in Maine yesterday, the anniversary of Prop 8 in California, this is a very timely topic.

What I really like is that you draw the comparison to Captain Jack Harkness, who is nearly exactly what I want to see in video games when the subject matter comes up. I don't want to feel stereo-typed and one-dimensional, and I don't want to feel like the developer is trying to hard, either. Once again, great video.
Sassafrass's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:04
Sassafrass
Actually, Captain Jack Harkness falls short of the mark as well, since he's pretty strongly in the bisexual camp. I mean, I almost want to make a new category for him of omnisexual, since he seems just as into attractive aliens and robots at different points in the Doctor Who series.

He's definitely still a queer character, and a fantastic one, but it's easier to identify with him because he's definitely attracted to the same people we are, just to some other people as well. Regardless, I agree that having more realistic gay characters in games would be fantastic, along with more realistic same-sex relationships in games, that are more than just fetishism and crappy dialogue.
Timmeh's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:06
Timmeh
I think this whole video was about Anthony coming to terms with being in love with Captain Jack Harkness. If I wasn't so apathetic I might watch again and count how many times his name was mentioned :p
GoldenGamerXero's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:07
GoldenGamerXero
@kefkaesque

That's why I chose to say where it's appropriate because sure if that time never does come up then it could never be said but with games having so much dialogue I would expect it to come up at least once.

@Julian Proxy

Yeah I know what you mean like when they try to create female characters and end up missing the point that turning your character from a lovely, little housewife with no personality to super-violent headstomp girl with no personality is only a different side of the stupid stereotype coin. How come when I ask for a strong female character they give me an unlikable bitch who solves all her problems by shooting things?
Bigby's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:08
Bigby
I think all of this is mainly a sort of growing pains for portrayals of being gay in society. Right now its kind of a funny joke to say this is gay or that is gay as we are now comfortable with it to that sense. In IRC for example implied homosexual innuendos are the norm and if you dont get that wtf are you doing here in the first place? But I digress. Basically being gay and gay society that was very taboo for a long while is moving into the mainstream and as such are going to see some bumps and bruises along the way. If you think about it it has really come a long way. I mean Rev brings up Captain Jack as an example and just imagine how far TV alone has come to have a main character like that on TV? Or look at Will and Grace as another example. An actual GTA expansion caled Gay Tony? All of this you would never have seen probably as late as the late 90's in mainstream anyway. But they have come a long ways since the 50's, 60's, etc. I think we will just have to be patient and just watch as it just becomes part of everything and we dont even have to think about it or even make articles about it. It will just BE.
Joe Loporcaro's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:09
Joe Loporcaro
this is one of the better episodes of this show because it's pro-social and not just overly critical for being critical's sake.

keep it up, Burch!
ndschroede23's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:10
ndschroede23
@kefkaesque

You're right, it's usually not relevant to the story. That's why video games could use a character like the one from Dr. Who that Anthony mentions (having never been a fan of Dr. Who and having only seen the rant once, this character's name escapes me. Jack something). It would show the video gaming crowd - one of the most homophobic (or at least blatantly homophobic) crowds around - that being gay doesn't mean being lame. It'd be really helpful to see the main protagonist, being all badass and whatnot as protagonists usually are, mention or imply once, offhand, that he's gay.

I don't think having a lesbian character would have quite the same effect as a male gay character, unfortunately. Pardon my generalization, but the people who use the term "gay" pejoratively are most of the same people who think lesbians are awesome because they like to watch two chicks getting it on (to paraphrase).
DJDuffy 's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:11
DJDuffy
@ kefkaesque

that's the whole point of a character like Jack Harkness, the fact that he's bisexual isn't the focus of the show. Just like how Master Chief is probably into the ladies, it isn't a focus. This is what were are trying to achieve.
matty125's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:12
matty125
Isn't the main character in Fear Effect a homosexual, or at least implied?

As ninjalegend said, to have this come across as naturally as possible and not the stereotypical, sometimes downright offensive way video games and other media have shown is have it be relevant. Just making a character a homosexual just for the sake of it or whatever isn't helping much, even if it's in good intentions.

and Torchwood is a horrible show :(
CitizenErased's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:13
CitizenErased
Maaaan I'd love it if Master Chief actually turned out to be gay.
Not flaming or stereotypical or anything like that...just a dude who fights aliens, saves the world and likes other dudes.

That would be perfect.
ParaParaKing's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:14
ParaParaKing
The main concept about Kanji is the question if he is gay or not. He is confused about his sexuality and that is a way more mature way than just putting him as a gay character in Persona 4.

I am opposed to putting gay characters in video games just to put gay characters in there. Of course if there is sexuality involved in the game you may think about putting such a character in there.

Speaking of bisexual characters: In the Japanese version of Azure Dreams you were able to get into a romantic relation
ship with Gosh, one of your rivals. Of course for the homophobic western market that part was cut.

Also returning to Persona 4: Maybe it would have been a good thing, if the main character were able to also get into romantic relationships with the male social links.
Berkowitz1337's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:14
Berkowitz1337
Like someone said, I don't think sexual orientation is really all that important. There are plenty of games where a characters sexual orientation is ever brought up, they might be gay but it's never stated. Meaning you could assume that they live a gay lifestyle and choose not to share that with the player, just because it's never brought doesn't mean they aren't gay (as in the writers/devs eyes they could be gay). But I do understand you wanting a homosexual character that isn't portrayed as flamboyantly gay.
Avalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:21
Avalon
While I agreed with everything said here, I'd really like to point out that the Magypsies in Mother 3 are not actually gay. This is because they're not actually supposed to be men. Before you actually meet them, there's a whole build up where Alec is describing them to you and Flint and he says that they're "mystical beings" and are "neither man nor woman" so that you get this whole impression that they're not even humanoid. I, myself, thought that Alec had given his own little name to the Mr. Saturns.
And when you finally see the Magypsies, they resemble transvestites, and you think "Oh, right! That was what he meant by 'neither man nor woman'!". Simply put, the Magypsies are transvestites, first and foremost and if you want to interpret them as actually being "gay", then I'd argue that it's quite impossible seeing as they have no gender.

To back up my point, in the game that Mother 3 is a sequel to, Earthbound, there is a character called Tony whom Shigesato Itoi actually admitted to being gay, in an interview. In the actual game, there is no real hinting towards Tony's sexaulity other than his clingy-ness towards his best friend, Jeff. He's gay. That's all there is to it. Is Jeff gay? Who knows? he says literally two lines in the entire game, so we'll never know. He's not a character you really want to play as, but his sexuality is not his defining characteristic as much as his apparent crush on Jeff, which is fine, you could find him annoying if Jeff's character was replaced by a girl, or if Tony's character were replaced by a girl.

My point is, calling Itoi out for his portrayal of gay characters (who aren't actually gay) is kind of redundant when he's done a pretty good job previously. Somewhat like how you called Persona 4 out for it's grinding, (I still agree with you though, but I think Valkyria chronicles' grinding only works with SRPGS) even though it's probably the most fresh and different JRPG on the market right now.
HOLY TACO's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:22
HOLY TACO
Nice Anthony, it would definitely be good to see more normal gay characters in games. I find the stereotyping of homosexuality in the media funny, just as I find the stereotyping of heterosexuality funny, however I agree more characters akin to Cap'n Jack would definitely be a good thing.
HOLY TACO's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:23
HOLY TACO
Except for when the stereotyping is blatant bigotry. That sucks.
Berkowitz1337's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:25
Berkowitz1337
"Maaaan I'd love it if Master Chief actually turned out to be gay.
Not flaming or stereotypical or anything like that...just a dude who fights aliens, saves the world and likes other dudes.

That would be perfect."

This is kind of my point; most people will assume Master Chief (or any sexually ambiguous character) is hetero sexual and I'm sure some will assume he's gay (not in the 'LOL HALO IS GAY' sense) but because it's never brought into question, people's imaginations can run wild. Confirmation of sexual orientation isn't all that necessary.
joshkim's Avatar - Comment posted on 11/04/2009 16:26
joshkim
Can you link up the stuff you talk about within your rants?

Is this the article you were talking about written by Robert Yang?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_222/6614-Not-That-Theres-Anything-Wrong-With-That

That's all. Love your rants.
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