surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
Thank you for the Persona 4 argument. I feel like I'm taking fucking crazy pills when I say those first few hours are fucking bullshit and miss the whole fucking point of video games (interaction beyond scrolling through text).
I'll say it for you: 'All games should have a 'skip cut scenes' button.'.
Everyone of 'em..
The harder one to nail down is the 'Save anywhere' feature... should all games have it? I dunno... I wish they did.
Everyone of 'em..
The harder one to nail down is the 'Save anywhere' feature... should all games have it? I dunno... I wish they did.
Part of the massive appeal and quality of these games is the narrative though, they're not made for people who don't care about narrative, they're built around the narrative.
They're not made for people who don't care like you, they're made for people who do care. Your argument that all games should allow you to ruin them by taking out a giant focus makes no sense, they're not built solely on gameplay, and the gameplay is meant to be strongly affected by the story. It's the developers choice if the story is an add on or a huge focus, it seems like in this video you're demanding that all developers abide by your rules of what their game should be on a base level, which is just ridiculous.
They're not made for people who don't care like you, they're made for people who do care. Your argument that all games should allow you to ruin them by taking out a giant focus makes no sense, they're not built solely on gameplay, and the gameplay is meant to be strongly affected by the story. It's the developers choice if the story is an add on or a huge focus, it seems like in this video you're demanding that all developers abide by your rules of what their game should be on a base level, which is just ridiculous.
I agree with the P4 nonesense, and to some extent to the half life thing,(in only a couple instances can I say that i hate having to wait for the narritave in HL2) but for all games to follow this rubric seems like wishful thinking. Having the ability to skip the story seems like a solution, but then wouldnt all games basically be the same after a time?
"Do This" *points down* - hahahaha, sounds pretty accurate to me, at least in relation to your comments section. :p
Lots of people praise games like portal/half life 2 for not forcing you to endure cutscenes, but they do. The only difference is that you can move the camera around while the cutscene plays. Try skipping through the begging of HL2 ep2 for example, you can't. You'll have to wait for Dog to shove aside the debris once the prescripted scene is over.
I'm of the opinion that first-time playthroughs shouldn't have a skippable option--but playing through a second time unlocks the ability.
Sorry, but if I'm the game designer and I worked hard on the animations and narrative, then by gum, you're gonna watch it at least once.
Sorry, but if I'm the game designer and I worked hard on the animations and narrative, then by gum, you're gonna watch it at least once.
I skipped the cutscene in your blog and went straight to the interactive with fighting and stuff, am I doing it right? :D
I think what's worse is games that deliberately omit features in the game that could benefit the gameplay, just for the fact it would make the narrative less structured or realistic. Ironically, the most fun I had with games are the ones with little to no story and are just focused on the bizarre and over the top mechanics. (Just Cause 2 for example)
Disagree about Persona 4, story is tied to gameplay there. Its kinda like saying that you want to skip over all the conversations in Dragon Age and just go right to the action - you'll never develop your character properly if you skip that stuff.
By skipping Social Link stuff in P4, you're actually just making the game harder on you, denying yourself the bonuses building the relationships. That and you have the decisions to deal with some of which are not the usual arbitrary JRPG "decisions" usually thrown at you elsewhere, but actually matter to the flow of the story and the gameplay
For something like Final Fantasy, where arbitrary and "no" answers are always funneled toward "yes" - yeah, there we can go "fuck your story." Final Fantasy is a story layered on top of a bunch of gameplay scenarios and one has very little influence on the other save for what characters you might have in the scenario
By skipping Social Link stuff in P4, you're actually just making the game harder on you, denying yourself the bonuses building the relationships. That and you have the decisions to deal with some of which are not the usual arbitrary JRPG "decisions" usually thrown at you elsewhere, but actually matter to the flow of the story and the gameplay
For something like Final Fantasy, where arbitrary and "no" answers are always funneled toward "yes" - yeah, there we can go "fuck your story." Final Fantasy is a story layered on top of a bunch of gameplay scenarios and one has very little influence on the other save for what characters you might have in the scenario
I feel your criticism of the inability to skip Persona 4's cutscenes to be flawed.You argue that the player should be able to skip right to the gameplay and not have to continually press the x button(You can hold the circle button to auto-skip by the way) to bypass the cutscenes. I would argue that, while the dungeons and dating simulator in school are the main gameplay attractions, those interactions between the characters that you want to skip are the best part of the game.
From my perspective you want to skip, what is in my opinion the best part of the game, for a battle system that becomes repetitive quickly and a dumded down version of the game's main cutscenes in what is the social link system. I don't think you can use Persona 4 in your argument but I do agree that the player should always have the ability to skip cutscenes. But you will never make me believe that someone who plays Persona 4 wants to skip the cutscenes when it is the best thing the game has to offer.
From my perspective you want to skip, what is in my opinion the best part of the game, for a battle system that becomes repetitive quickly and a dumded down version of the game's main cutscenes in what is the social link system. I don't think you can use Persona 4 in your argument but I do agree that the player should always have the ability to skip cutscenes. But you will never make me believe that someone who plays Persona 4 wants to skip the cutscenes when it is the best thing the game has to offer.
I dunno man... if I had my guys go through the trouble of making a gigantic mechanical spider... I think I'd want you to see my goddamned mechanical spider from every angle that it could possibly look good!
Separately, if my mechanical spider has some poignant lines of dialog from a well known actor, I REALLY want you to see my giant talking mechanical spider and hear everything he has to say.
I made it for you. Why don't you want my gifts?
Separately, if my mechanical spider has some poignant lines of dialog from a well known actor, I REALLY want you to see my giant talking mechanical spider and hear everything he has to say.
I made it for you. Why don't you want my gifts?
On the flipside of my "allow skipping on the second playthrough", how about Destructoid allowing visitors to mute the forced commercial before every video? If I'm gonna have to endure yet another product, at least let me be able to shut it the hell up.
I'd like to see a "no story mode" implemented in a game where it totally changes the way you look at the game if you go back and play the story mode. Like the review from GDC a while back about the TRAIN boardgame that, without narritive, seems completely innocent but when the story is applied to the exact same pieces and board it takes on a completely other meaning.
thats what i love about the story of wkc, every cutscene is skippable but the first playthrough for me is all about the story and wkc's new game+ is all about getting the gr7 and gr8 weapons, i skipped nearly every cutscene on that second playthrough. i love the option of being able to do that, even if i absolutely don't want to skip.
worst great game that does this, dq8, not only for the fact that you can't skip any scenes, but also because you have to press X to advance any dialog.
worst great game that does this, dq8, not only for the fact that you can't skip any scenes, but also because you have to press X to advance any dialog.
While I agree there should be a "skip cutscene" option for every game, I can't see why you would want to skip the story just for the gameplay, Persona 4 for example would make zero sense, you'd start the game and suddenly monsters inside a TV. The combat in P4 is pretty mediocre, it's the crazyness of the story that has made people fall in love with it.
A no-story mode for a second playthrough would be fine, you've seen it once before and you don't need to see it again. But letting people play games without any idea on the story would be disastrous, they would be lost and probably blame it on the game.
I really hope there aren't gamers out there who would go through an RPG thinking "god this story sucks, I just want to stab people", because that's really missing the point.
A no-story mode for a second playthrough would be fine, you've seen it once before and you don't need to see it again. But letting people play games without any idea on the story would be disastrous, they would be lost and probably blame it on the game.
I really hope there aren't gamers out there who would go through an RPG thinking "god this story sucks, I just want to stab people", because that's really missing the point.
As much as I love games that have a strong story, like most of the Final Fantasy games, I completely agree. I absolutely HATE it when games don't let you skip cutscenes. While I haven't ever gone into a game wanting to skip cutscenes the first time through, it is nothing short of infuriating when you have to re-watch a cutscene if you die after it finishes. It's just horrible design, and there's no reason whey the player should have to re-watch something.
Granted, I play pretty much exclusively RPG's, but I can feel the pain of not being able to skip cutscenes, but for very different reasons. Mostly, if I die and have to retry a section, but there's a huge unskipable portion before said battle, I have been known to get quite pissed off.
That said, I personally do watch all the cutscenes for my games at least once, as someone before me said, so that what I'm doing makes more sense to me. Not that I haven't been anxious to get to the actually gameplay before (Persona 4's 3 hour story intro is right on the money), but I find that it helps, me at least, understand the story a bit better. And since I play RPG's, I find that to be kinda important, though since I don't really play other genres of games, I could be wrong about how important those stories are compared to gameplay.
That said, I personally do watch all the cutscenes for my games at least once, as someone before me said, so that what I'm doing makes more sense to me. Not that I haven't been anxious to get to the actually gameplay before (Persona 4's 3 hour story intro is right on the money), but I find that it helps, me at least, understand the story a bit better. And since I play RPG's, I find that to be kinda important, though since I don't really play other genres of games, I could be wrong about how important those stories are compared to gameplay.
On the flip side, I think Alone in the Dark has a "F*ck your Gameplay" option, where you can skip the stages and just watch the cutscenes, even if you haven't beaten the level before.
As for your rant, I do agree.
As for your rant, I do agree.
To the people saying that skipping the cut scenes in a game like Persona 4 or Dragon Age is to miss out on part of the experience:
Sure. Of course. But how does that prove I shouldn't be able to skip them? I'll be giving something up in skipping those cut scenes, sure -- I SHOULD be giving something up, otherwise the cut scenes are totally superfluous -- but why shouldn't I have the option to make that choice for myself?
Why shouldn't I be able to say, "you know what? I don't really care about this story, so I'll give up some potential immersion in it in exchange for direct access to the gameplay." The mere existence of that choice doesn't lessen the existence of the narrative stuff, it just allows the player to decide what they want from the game without the designer ramming stuff down their throats. All narrative-based games that people truly love still have some really satisfying core gameplay, so why not allow me to choose to have one, or the other, or both?
If you want narrative, you get narrative. If you don't, you don't. How can that possibly be a bad thing?
To the "they spent all that time on the story, you should have to watch it" people:
Tough titty for the dev team, man. And anyway, if their overall goal is for me to like their game, they assume that showing me the cool cinematic shit they made will make me like the game more. But if I DON'T like the cool cinematic shit they made, then by allowing me to skip the cool cinematic shit, I will like their game more.
Sure. Of course. But how does that prove I shouldn't be able to skip them? I'll be giving something up in skipping those cut scenes, sure -- I SHOULD be giving something up, otherwise the cut scenes are totally superfluous -- but why shouldn't I have the option to make that choice for myself?
Why shouldn't I be able to say, "you know what? I don't really care about this story, so I'll give up some potential immersion in it in exchange for direct access to the gameplay." The mere existence of that choice doesn't lessen the existence of the narrative stuff, it just allows the player to decide what they want from the game without the designer ramming stuff down their throats. All narrative-based games that people truly love still have some really satisfying core gameplay, so why not allow me to choose to have one, or the other, or both?
If you want narrative, you get narrative. If you don't, you don't. How can that possibly be a bad thing?
To the "they spent all that time on the story, you should have to watch it" people:
Tough titty for the dev team, man. And anyway, if their overall goal is for me to like their game, they assume that showing me the cool cinematic shit they made will make me like the game more. But if I DON'T like the cool cinematic shit they made, then by allowing me to skip the cool cinematic shit, I will like their game more.
Agreed. I just recently went through Cave Story on the PC. I really like it but going through the second time is kind of a pain because of all the dialogue you have to tap through.
The only game I can think of that would require at LEAST one play through with cut scenes on is The Void, because seriously, wtf.
The only game I can think of that would require at LEAST one play through with cut scenes on is The Void, because seriously, wtf.
Also, I'm not implying that the social link system in Persona 4 isn't gameplay. It is. The basic act of choosing how much time you spend on work vs school vs friends is absolutely, 100% gameplay (even ignoring how great an impact it has on the combat).
The long cut scenes of Grey Hair Guy and Headphones Dude staring into a TV with their hands on their hips, conversely, is not gameplay.
The long cut scenes of Grey Hair Guy and Headphones Dude staring into a TV with their hands on their hips, conversely, is not gameplay.
^ isn't that what your rant pointed out? Again, I agree. I'm just surprised so many people choose to spend the time watching the rant, then spend the time to post without an understanding of what you were talking about...
@Anthony
To be honest, I would like this to be taken one step further - I don't mind giving players the option to skip entire stages if they choose to. If I buy a movie, I can, should I choose to, skip through certain scenes, or if I buy a series on DVD I can skip past episodes I don't like; if I buy a CD and hate half the songs, I never have to listen to them.
So why shouldn't the gamer be allowed this same sort of freedom?
Once I buy a game, I should be able to impose and determine how I want to take in my entertainment.
To be honest, I would like this to be taken one step further - I don't mind giving players the option to skip entire stages if they choose to. If I buy a movie, I can, should I choose to, skip through certain scenes, or if I buy a series on DVD I can skip past episodes I don't like; if I buy a CD and hate half the songs, I never have to listen to them.
So why shouldn't the gamer be allowed this same sort of freedom?
Once I buy a game, I should be able to impose and determine how I want to take in my entertainment.
To add onto my previous post, I admit there were some parts of Dragonage where I got sick of having to talk to everyone in the town, especially when you asked the same thing to everyone and they just repeated each other. An option to skip repeating questions would of been nice.
But, the cutscenes and story sections are a good way to break up the combat, if you let people choose a "no-story mode", who's to say they wouldn't get bored after 5 hours of straight combat and give up on the game? Giving people the option to have "no story" on a first playthrough could be bad for the game.
And yes, every game should let you skip cutscenes on an individual basis (one of the things FFXIII got right).
But, the cutscenes and story sections are a good way to break up the combat, if you let people choose a "no-story mode", who's to say they wouldn't get bored after 5 hours of straight combat and give up on the game? Giving people the option to have "no story" on a first playthrough could be bad for the game.
And yes, every game should let you skip cutscenes on an individual basis (one of the things FFXIII got right).
@Anthony
I do agree with you that there should be an option to skip the cutscenes in Persona 4, but if you went into that game only looking for the battle system you would be better off playing a different game in the shin megami tensei series.
Persona's main attraction is the characters and if all you're looking for is the rpg elements it's not the game for you.
I do agree with you that there should be an option to skip the cutscenes in Persona 4, but if you went into that game only looking for the battle system you would be better off playing a different game in the shin megami tensei series.
Persona's main attraction is the characters and if all you're looking for is the rpg elements it's not the game for you.
Why not a "no gameplay" option ? I mean, I can be bored to tears by Final Fantasy grinding for example, and I still got no love from the developers, even if I enjoy the story.
For me it is about authorial control. Yes, games are supposed to be sold, and customer is king, but developers re allowed to make the games they want and force upon you the experience they want. Even the pure interactivity of gameplay is far from total freedom. Imposing cutscene is just another thing they can do (much like preventing you to jump or to lean in an FPS etc).
If they feel it makes the experience better (pacing, involvement, etc), why let the players ruin it? It's like having a game that's too easy. Letting people do what they want is not always the best thing for them. Make something a bit harder for instance may add value to your game (you sad so in a previous rant).
Imposing time and story may add value as well.
In any case, not all games are meant for all gamers. If the game is not suited to you (even if you would enjoy part of it), then don't bother, pick up another one.
I think the devs should be able to do as they see fit, it can bring more to other players (ones that cannot refrain from skipping when given the opportunity and the miss out on great content, pacing, involvement etc).
Then I like when I'm given the choice, but really it is up to the developpers. I think it's only needed on second playthrough (no way you knew for sure what you would have skipped in Persona 4, given the ability, was boring the first time you played).
For me it is about authorial control. Yes, games are supposed to be sold, and customer is king, but developers re allowed to make the games they want and force upon you the experience they want. Even the pure interactivity of gameplay is far from total freedom. Imposing cutscene is just another thing they can do (much like preventing you to jump or to lean in an FPS etc).
If they feel it makes the experience better (pacing, involvement, etc), why let the players ruin it? It's like having a game that's too easy. Letting people do what they want is not always the best thing for them. Make something a bit harder for instance may add value to your game (you sad so in a previous rant).
Imposing time and story may add value as well.
In any case, not all games are meant for all gamers. If the game is not suited to you (even if you would enjoy part of it), then don't bother, pick up another one.
I think the devs should be able to do as they see fit, it can bring more to other players (ones that cannot refrain from skipping when given the opportunity and the miss out on great content, pacing, involvement etc).
Then I like when I'm given the choice, but really it is up to the developpers. I think it's only needed on second playthrough (no way you knew for sure what you would have skipped in Persona 4, given the ability, was boring the first time you played).
For anyone who hasn't listened to his talk at UC Berkeley and is interested in games on a greater level than LOOK AT ALL THE BLOOD LOL then I'd highly recommend it. Really interesting points!
I think you're not really giving the design of Persona 4 it's due. Saying that the early parts of the game have nothing to do with the main thrust of why you'd want to play it is unfairly reductive. Both of the things that you mention liking (the dungeon crawling battle gameplay and the Social Link stuff) are put in context by the first few hours, which establish the setting, the overarching mystery, and the reasons for your characters to be going through the television to beat the crap out of monsters with wooden swords and golf clubs. Most importantly, it establishes a world in which the daily lives of the characters and the otherworldly supernatural stuff coexist as one two-sided entity. Without these, I think the main thrust of the game's design would sort of feel like two disconnected sub games that are only loosely united. The other thing that I think is important (though I realize that this probably won't seem like a major justification) is that this is a really, really long game, so I think that it can be forgiven for putting you on rails for what is in the end a very small part of the overall experience. I mean, if the game were, say, ten or fifteen hours long and still had a three hour opening tutorial, that would be an egregious waste of your time with the game. In this case, however, I think that the fact that the overall experience is so decompressed means that the game can justifiably take its sweet time in easing you into things.
None of this is, of course, to say that you shouldn't be allowed to skip the whole thing if you really want to. You are right that if you have no interest in the story, you should be allowed to just get on to the parts that you do like. This honestly seems to be an issue that many games which have you press a button to click through dialogue boxes seem to share: if you're in any way contributing to the progression of the scene, even if just by pressing the button repeatedly, the game doesn't consider it a cutscene, and thus it isn't something you should be allowed to skip. And that isn't right.
None of this is, of course, to say that you shouldn't be allowed to skip the whole thing if you really want to. You are right that if you have no interest in the story, you should be allowed to just get on to the parts that you do like. This honestly seems to be an issue that many games which have you press a button to click through dialogue boxes seem to share: if you're in any way contributing to the progression of the scene, even if just by pressing the button repeatedly, the game doesn't consider it a cutscene, and thus it isn't something you should be allowed to skip. And that isn't right.
Let's put it to the test.
What if you made an update to Runner where you allowed players to remove those art portraits and story elements from the game, and let me play the Battletoads "inspired" gameplay. What if it was just running and dodging and that's it? How would it change the way people played that game if the gameplay was never interrupted by the linear storytelling of the portraits or the typewriter?
What if you made an update to Runner where you allowed players to remove those art portraits and story elements from the game, and let me play the Battletoads "inspired" gameplay. What if it was just running and dodging and that's it? How would it change the way people played that game if the gameplay was never interrupted by the linear storytelling of the portraits or the typewriter?
Dude, still watching, but I had to jump in here because this is one of my biggest pet-peeves in games today. That pet-peeve being the inability to skip cut-scenes.
I can totally understand if a developer takes away the option on the first playthrough. But it is inexcusable to me for a developer to not allow skipping cut-scenes you have already scene.
For instance, GoW III. The opening fucking intro was non-skippable! WHAT.THE.FUCK!
But kudos to Squenix for allowing the player to skip any and all cut-scenes they'd like.
And Kudos to you Rev. for this rant!
I can totally understand if a developer takes away the option on the first playthrough. But it is inexcusable to me for a developer to not allow skipping cut-scenes you have already scene.
For instance, GoW III. The opening fucking intro was non-skippable! WHAT.THE.FUCK!
But kudos to Squenix for allowing the player to skip any and all cut-scenes they'd like.
And Kudos to you Rev. for this rant!
To be honest, I would like this to be taken one step further - I don't mind giving players the option to skip entire stages if they choose to. If I buy a movie, I can, should I choose to, skip through certain scenes, or if I buy a series on DVD I can skip past episodes I don't like; if I buy a CD and hate half the songs, I never have to listen to them.
Great idea, I hear that at the next World Chess Championship they are skipping straight to the endgame! Other ways to take in your entertainment: anally.
Great idea, I hear that at the next World Chess Championship they are skipping straight to the endgame! Other ways to take in your entertainment: anally.
I fucked up:
"But kudos to Squenix for allowing the player to skip any and all cut-scenes they'd like in FF XIII"
K, done for now.
"But kudos to Squenix for allowing the player to skip any and all cut-scenes they'd like in FF XIII"
K, done for now.
FF13 DOES let you skip the cut scenes (thank the Gaming Godz...). He could have ranted about a 20 hour tutorial however....
@upselo If you took the gameplay out, it wouldn't be a game. A game is interactive by nature. It's the same reason that a game can exist without a story but a story without the game simply isn't a game.
I know that after my third playthrough of Final Fantasy X, I was just instinctively tapping X to get through all of the not-cinematic cut-scenes even after the cut scene had ended. But yeah. If I wanted a to play a movie, I'd go see a movie. Any ability to not skip just waters down what makes games, games.
I'm huge Persona 4 fanboy, but I totally get what Anthony is saying. I mean, I cared about the story and didn't mind that I could not skip cutscenes for that, so good for me.
But for people like Anthony, who weren't impressed by the plot, there should be an option for them to skip certain cutscenes.
But for people like Anthony, who weren't impressed by the plot, there should be an option for them to skip certain cutscenes.
FFXIII not only lets you skip cutscenes but also has a huge log of story recaps and character summaries and stuff in case you realize you've missed some info along the way. Brilliant. Same props go to the Dynasty Warriors games and their huge tomes of information about each character and battle, and the Metal Gear online database app for PS3.
@Phoenix Gamma
Much as I loved Persona 3 I've never bothered to buy a copy of Persona 4 due to the purported 2 hour intro cutscene.
Much as I loved Persona 3 I've never bothered to buy a copy of Persona 4 due to the purported 2 hour intro cutscene.
@comradetrotskii
If someone just wanted to watch the end of any event, like your mentioned Chess Championship, then who cares? Let them. I watched the finals for Olympic Men's Hockey, but not the earlier games - should I have been forced to watch every second of every preceeding game?
I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with choice. Or is there?
If someone just wanted to watch the end of any event, like your mentioned Chess Championship, then who cares? Let them. I watched the finals for Olympic Men's Hockey, but not the earlier games - should I have been forced to watch every second of every preceeding game?
I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with choice. Or is there?
follow
