Dunno why the formatting is all screwed up with this week's rant (nor why, after almost half a year of doing these things, I'm still incapable of wrangling Final Cut Pro into submission), but it's about absurdly difficult games like Pathologic, The Void, and Demon's Souls, and the pros and cons of that sort of design.
I didn't mention this in the video, but I've never played a game that actually made me feel a true sense of desperation until I played The Void (with the possible exception of the corridor scene in MGS4, though that probably doesn't count).
On the one hand: great! How wonderful to feel a particular emotion so acutely, and have that emotion effected entirely through gameplay alone. On the other hand: for every one person who finishes The Void there are a thousand who will not, and the desperation itself didn't really allow me any degree of intentional freedom. You technically do a lot of "exploring" in The Void, technically, yet it never really feels like "true" exploring since you're only visiting new areas out of a ravenous hunger for more Color. Hard to admire the scenery when you're starving to death.
Really, though, this rant is more of a "hey what do you think" sort of thing, so feel free to leave comments below.
I think it depends on the type of game. For a story driven game (take final fantasy for example), I'd rather have gameplay that is reasonably challenging, but not too difficult as to impede on the natural flow of the narrative.
For action games, or games designed around combat and exploration, (such as demon's souls) I think it's a great change of pace.
However, the reason why Demon's souls still holds up with on such a hard difficulty, is because of many other factors including level design, character customization, startling ambushes, the entire multiplayer aspect, etc.
I think it takes all these things combined to make a gamer not lose patience with a difficult game.
I'm really confused by this rant. Is the point you're trying to make the feeling of relief at beating a hard game/mission/other? Is it that only hard games give a true feeling of accomplishment?
You really lost me on this one. I just can't figure out what you mean.
I am one of those people. I hated Requiem for a Dream, and I hated No Country for Old Men. That said, I would still be interested in trying out Pathologic, because I guess I'm okay with a videogame making me feel like trash, just not a movie.
I would say Majora's Mask, though no one would agree with me. If you dont use a strategy guide(which people probably won't) its really rewarding since the only instruction the game tend to give you is "go here, figure it out".
@Ron -- I don't think it's just about that. For example, Ninja Gaiden is hard because it throws a lot of enemies at you at once.
Demon's Souls and The Void are hard because their mechanics are hard to understand. Because it's hard to figure out how the game works (which The Void does on purpose), you're always having to be on the lookout for things that can kill you.
I disagree on the Portal comment, I always felt really accomplished and excited when I beat a level. Especially the challenge levels in Still Alive. Maybe that was just me though.
I think in some games, the difficulty is necessary. 8 bit Megaman games (well any old school, one-hit-you-die platformer really) come to mind - if not for the difficulty, the games really wouldn't be that enjoyable. Games like Demon's Souls are just an extreme continuation of that concept. And I think what makes those games fun is the fact that you have a reason to finally be able to celebrate victories (after countless deaths) and just go "TAKE THAT, BITCH!" over the boss's corpse.
Is it possible to get that feeling without the challenge? Personally, I don't have any idea how you could do it...the fact that I did something uberly hard is the only thing that makes me feel that accomplished. But hey, if somebody finds a way to make me feel that way at the snap of a finger, they'll be my new god.
The game your looking for is Monster Hunter. It has a huge tutorial so you always know exactly how to play the game. At the same time, it can still be a difficult experience because of how easily a boss can kill you. And when you actually kill the damn thing, the feeling of accomplishment is huge.
you know whay?
i got the same feeling with the last Castlevania(Order of Ecclesia) and im glad to know that im not alone with that strange sense of something being soo difficult, that beating a boss or advance a hard part is soo rewarding..
i have been playing the void and i can say that i have never played a game that made me feel like gollum before this. for me gaming is more about being artisticlly impressed rather then crushed with challenge so the void is a change in playstyle for me. right now im really terrified to load the game up because i am dangerously low on color and have no idea where to go. that and if dont do some stupid mining task the brothers are gonna kill me.
"but I've never played a game that actually made me feel a true sense of desperation until I played The Void (with the possible exception of the corridor scene in MGS4, though that probably doesn't count)."
I thought you said Cthulu did this, in a previous rant.
I can't really comment on the specific games, because my laptop is a bit crud gaming-wise and Demon Souls isn't coming out over here.
In general though, I think Crushing difficulties have there place but in most cases I find them to be done poorly.
If a game's idea of difficulty is just doing repetive things over and over hoping you won't die, thats stupid.
I'm confused about the rant mentioned 'Frustration' a lot. In my mind, you get Frustrated when you die, and it wasn't 100% you fault. I don't think this is a good thing and I also believe that a game can be 'crushing' without being frustrating.
Crushing has it's place, but I rarely see it done properly.
For some reason the Nuclear base towards the end of Call of Duty 4, I was playing on veteran and I was stuck there for a really long time and I had only seconds to get through before the countdown finished. Greatest sense of relief and accomplishment when I finally finished that game.
In my opinion, beating a game on the harder/hardest difficulty often adds to the experience. I recently played through Modern Warfare 2, first on Veteran difficulty, and then on easy when I tried to introduce my little sister to the wonders of FPS. While the latter didn't work out, going through the game again, this time on an easier difficulty made me realize how incredibly much that changed the feel of the game. To me, immersion in games is a very important factor as to how I can enjoy a title. In my case, this ranges from forcing myself not to run up the last stairs to Ganons lair on top of Hyrule Castle. The stairs have to be walked up, just like I would have done myself, were I to find myself in that situation. Anywho, being able to absorb less amounts of damage before dying in Modern Warfare 2 really gives the game the "1 against 100" feel the game (in my opinion) is trying to give you. By making Modern Warfare 2 harder, at least to me, it got better. Now, I have not played any of the games you mentioned, and I do not think I can afford them within the next month, but I like the sound of what you're saying, and I'll definitely pick them up to see for myself as soon as possible.
There's a fan-made easiness patch for The Void. It makes the game so much more fun without diminishing the tension of survival. I absolutely love the game with the easy patch (though it's probably more akin to a medium-difficulty patch).
One way to incorporate its lie-to-the-player techniques in a more accessible game, though, might be an Assassin's Creed/GTA/sandboxy game in which there are unforseen consequences to killing your targets, and only once the player feels bad about doing it do they realize that they can lie right back to the game, saying they completed objectives which they didn't.
I hate extremely difficult games. Games which are too easy, however, have no tension or excitement to them. But I do not want to play a game in which I die 30 times before I can progress, only to die another 30 times (Like the mission "Takedown" on Vetern in MW2). In all my games I play on normal until I get stuck, then I'll switch it to easy. I'll switch it back to normal after a certain section.
My brother on the other hand, loves difficult games. Demon Soul's is exactly his sort of thing. He played MW2 on Veteran first and will not play it on any other difficulty. With any game he immediately switches to the hardest setting available. Narrative and all that stuff is not the reason he plays anything. He plays it simply for the challenge. Hell he bought extra copies of borderlands just so he could play a 4 player game (with four player difficulty) by himself (the other, mindless players he leaves at the start of the level or in town). He did a similar thing with Diablo II.
I cannot understand why he does this. But for some players, there is no need to "mesh" anything. For some players, extreme difficulty is the reason for playing itself. And for others, like me, difficulty is unwelcome. I play for story and for spectacle. He plays for the sheer challenge and never shall the two groups ever find a game they can both fully enjoy - unless the developer specifically designs the game with an ultra hard and very easy mode.
It depends. I love a good challenge, having beaten both Ninja Gaidens and plenty of other games that were hard for the right reasons (although I can't help but find Demon's Souls to be horribly overrated), but as Anthony insinuated, the gameplay does often come down to rote repetition.
There is a most effective way to take down X enemy, so you use that strategy, then rinse and repeat, with no room for error, over and over and over... Yes, you definitely get a sense of accomplishment, but I find myself less likely to go back and replay these games after I've beaten them. One you take a break and allow yourself to get "out of the zone", getting back into that zone doesn't always strike me as fun.
Just like manic shmups, super-hard beat-em-up/hack-and-slash games will always have a place in my heart, but that place will always be below games that offer a stronger focus on freedom, atmosphere and exploration.
@Robosaurus "...forcing myself not to run up the last stairs to Ganons lair on top of Hyrule Castle. The stairs have to be walked up, just like I would have done myself, were I to find myself in that situation."
I did this too in Twilight Princess but not because I felt any trepidation from the game's difficulty level. I was pretty confident that I was going to beat Ganon handily. And I did. For me, I'm perfectly willing to build up the difficulty in my mind to make the experience feel like it should. And the aesthetics help a lot in that matter. Link's journey up those steps was filled with ominous music and lightning flashes. And I took that atmosphere and just ran with it. Difficulty has never really contributed to my emotional reaction to a game in a way that wasn't completely negative. The only time I notice the difficulty in a game is when it's too hard and keeping me from enjoying it.
@Rev
Having not played those games but having felt the difference between Expert and Normal on Left 4 Dead 1/2, I think a lot of that "intentionality" is lost when you transition to Expert. And it's altogether not an enjoyable experience after a while. I suppose it motivates one at times to try fresh tactics but it also reduces the ability to experiment on the fly. On a personal note, I never receive a lasting feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment from beating a game on a challenging difficulty. Way I'm wired, I suppose.
Have you tried the Karoshi games? (http://www.karoshigame.com/) They are pretty quick but challenging and makes you think differently about how to solve each puzzle without being unfair.
High level of difficulty can frustrate me sometimes. At the moment i'm getting really pissed off at Castlevania: Order of Ecclessia. Every damn creature is more powerful than I (even at 30 % complete i still feel like a noob). This of course limits my will to explore the levels ( something i loved to do in other Castlevanias) and has made me play a more conservative evasive style . The bright side is the sense of release (more than accomplishment), i get once i finish a really difficult boss.
Well first of all, I gotta say, I really like seeing The Void and Pathologic getting more coverage, and yes, The Void is one of those experiences I will probably keep in my memory for a long, long time, there's just one thing, I didn't find it all that difficult; granted, I did read the manual 2 times, and all the journal entries about 3 times, and I spent half of my time just pausing the game (or rather slowing it down to the bare minimum) and just planing the way I would develop my gardens and such, but I never once got into problems with it, sure I reloaded at the boss battles several times, but I don't think that makes the experience "desperatly difficult".
Having said that, I still found the experience IMENSLY pleasurable (it's even GOTY as far as I'm concerned), so maybe the game really does have a small amount of flaws, can't say the same thing about Pathologic thou, it's still on my "to play list", and demon's souls... well, I don't have e console sadly, would love to try it out.
But in other games, like "Don't look back" for example, I think half the "impact" of the game (or rather, the ending) would be gone, and it's not that the game is "flawed" in some way, but... well you know, you played it :) (think it was in one of the indie nations... I think... if not http://www.kongregate.com/games/TerryCavanagh/dont-look-back, really a good example of how the difficulty of a game drives home it's message)
Another example would be Braid, if it was an easy game, the ending would lose a lot of it's "oumph". Wish I can name more games that use difficulty to enhance the impact of the story, but I'm drawing a blank, guys? maybe you can help?
Magnalon:
"The game got easier as it went on. You just gave up too quickly and sold it."
And then I rebought it. And kept playing it. And it was still too hard, and too predicated on memorization or tedium.
I really dunno what it is with people flat-out misrepresenting difficult games (is it so you can feel better about being good at them by pretending they didn't present a challenge?), especially one where late in the game an NPC will, without warning, start killing unrespawnable merchants whose help you undoubtedly need to complete the game.
Recently I've been playing Boarderlands... and hear me out before you tell me this isn't a challenge.
Basically I was playing with a friend and we were walking through every mission and got to about level 10. We looked at the mission board and decided to take on a level 16 mission. Sure we had to work together on every kill hitting them with lightening to weaken shields and try to take down as much health as we could before retreating to cover and waiting for our shields to replenish. Looking back this was probably a little repetitive, but there are a wide variety of foes and weapons involved so it never got old and every kill was followed by a we-almost-just-died fist bump (as opposed to the we just shot that fish in a barrel shrug). Huge sense of accomplishment, but always felt somewhat in control and could still spend time looting once we killed everyone.
Of course after that we came back and started playing the missions we should have done first, which were just too easy. At least we walked right through them like demigods and replenished our cash and supplies very quickly.
Is The Void this year's Far Cry 2 (ie, game to be wanked off for pretty much every example)? Anyway.
I would bring up something I've found from playing Torchlight, most notably the fact that I sometimes forget to keep an eye on my health meter due to being so absorbed in whatever 50 vs 1 brawl I've picked out at the time. This is something I've only found Torchlight doing as keeping health meters off to one side forces you to constantly think about your well-being, something I often forget about during a fight. Having a level of immersion that makes you forget about your basic gamer instincts to check your health every few seconds is a sort of difficulty not many games try I think.
You might be associating ramped up difficulty too much with satisfactory results. Playing games traditionally associated with ramped up difficulty often feels like the game is cheating you, and I (personally) feel little to know accomplishment by beating them, as it has taken several "lives" to do so. This is a differing of opinion obviously, but I prefer to beat a video game without ever dying, that is to say, I want to win and play the game the way the actual storyline progresses (which usually means the protagonist never loses). By dying or restarting a save, I am completely thrown out of the story, resulting in A: grinding to find out what works, or B: dropping the game for later. That's not to say I don't like challenges, but I think they should be handled delicately.
Another way to look at this situation is to have story lines that constantly pressure you to not die, while also putting you on the brink of death and its consequences. Take Fable 2 and its "scarring" concept. If you fail in your story of Fable, you receive a Scarlett Letter in the form of a permanent disfigurement. This innovation makes ANY small battle that you are close to the point of dying seem like a great accomplishment. It also makes losing apart of your story, thus not breaking the storyline.
Another idea is an "exponentially decaying life bar". In COD and similar FPSs your screen is quick to turn completely red and put you close to the edge of death, but really you have much more life on the "red to dead" part of your life bar, than the one bullet it takes to throw some of that famous MW2 strawberry jelly on your screen. This means the player emotionally feels on the verge of death much more often than they really are, preserving that helplessness emotion, without truly punishing the player with excessive difficulty.
Whoa...long post...my bad...in summation I think there are a lot techniques game developers are using today that do work in most situations to make a satisfying game. Perhaps (and I truly mean no offense) your clammering for extreme difficulties is a bit of a masochistic personality trait and something you just enjoy despite the constant breaking of a cohesive storyline which is something you advocate more in other rants and other video games.
Well Dragon Age had the sense of "wow, I wown!" but could still be played without crushing difficulty, but it would be one thing or the other.
Difficulty settings changed it from easy to all-but-impossible and would so so on the fly at no cost to the player. But again, it was both, but not at the same time.
A fun fact: I loved Fallout 3 and Oblivion more when I didn't understand them. Because I didn't understand fast travel, resting leveling and many other important game aspects.
I felt like I had to fight to survive and that made every battle where I didn't die one to remember. However once I understood how to play the difficulty instantly droped off.
So now I wonder, was it my discovering the game that I enjoyed, or the struggle to survive and the thrill of victory.
If victory cames without cost then it is as if you did nothing.
Note: When I say "discovering the game" I don't mean exploring or questing or finding hidden treasure. Ok I do mean those things, but I also mean discovering how to play the game, the mechanaics controls what kind of game and how to play it.
Ahhh crap, whent off a a tangent there didin't I? Well Ilm not deleting all that!
I think for me this would be the Original Thief and Thief 2.
While accessible and not brutally difficult I can't think of a time where I have been more sold in a game then standing in a tiny dark shadow in Thief 1 listening through headphones as a guard walked his way towards me. Yeah death didn't effect you much in the game but the environment and sense of fear was something I will never forget.
And no I need to go play it again. Thanks Anthony :P
"...especially one where late in the game an NPC will, without warning, start killing unrespawnable merchants whose help you undoubtedly need to complete the game."
That's insane and hateful. Game design by misanthropes.
@Jekyll007: RPG-esque games don't really qualify in this discussion because leveling allows anyone to bypass difficulty by grinding or numbers: i.e 2 lvl 10s should surely be able to beat lvl 16 (10 + 10 > 16)
I'll also stop here to say: saying you beat a "difficult game" or some game isn't "difficult to beat" also doesn't qualify as Anthony is talking about video game experiences in a subjective and relative term. Therefore "difficulty" is relative to the player, and should be defined as a situation that forces a player to feel increased levels of duress as they play it.
With this definition, I would argue that video games should adopt a LFD2 approach and make the game harder/easier as you are doing better/worse.
i took your word on the void
fuck this is hard
i really want to get into it and i keep trying but fuck
ill give it a few more shots before i accept i cant do it
Personally I find difficulty rewarding and will go out of my way to include "fake difficulty" or player imposed difficulty on games. Fallout 3 is a great example. Love that game, but lets face it - if you go through it methodically collecting the bobbleheads, balancing your stats, and especially if you pick up the DLC loot (pre-war powerarmor anyone?) and some of the unique weapons the whole game becomes a total cake walk. The idea of Fallout is a crapsack world where everyone is constantly on the verge of death, so why is it so easy?
With my main character I pumped the luck and sneak stats, ignored strenght, endurance and small arm, wore the Vault utility outfit the whole game and relied mainly on explosives and stealth to win battles. Sure the character was quasi-gimped (as you level on in the game especially Broken Steel you inevitably become a demi-god no matter what your intentions are) but it was super rewarding to go through the Fallout world with such a vulnerable and interesting character. I watched my friend play with his Powerarmored, pluse rifle weilding super soldier and his mutant-for-hire bodygaurd and he would just stand there with a Deathclaw attacking him. What fun is that? I want to feel terrified when a Deathclaw comes ripping out of the darkness snarling at me! Can I get the mines down and run or is it too late!? When was my last save? OH NOES!
"The game got easier as it went on. You just gave up too quickly and sold it."
And then I rebought it. And kept playing it. And it was still too hard, and too predicated on memorization or tedium.
I really dunno what it is with people flat-out misrepresenting difficult games (is it so you can feel better about being good at them by pretending they didn't present a challenge?)
My thoughts exactly, I'm sick of people claiming games are hard or they are some super mega gamer because they memorize bits of a tedious game by doing small sections over and over and over again, blah.
I think it was during the development of Ninja Gaiden Black that the developer said that they made the game hard to give players a sense of satisfaction that could not be achieved otherwise. I kind of agree that it just can't be done. It's sort of like in life how people who are born rich never get a concept of money's worth. How can you appreciate something unless you earn it kind of thing.
I don't really enjoy games for the challenge most of the time. I really just play games for the story and/or experience. I do feel proud for beating the epilogue of MW on Veteran though. Good Rant.
Well I think you got kinda lost in your ramblings rev.
While I do think that those games could be interesting and rewarding because of the difficulty, that shouldn't be an excuse for poor design. But since I can't comment on those games, because I haven't played them I could give you an example in some other games.
I feel that most games nowadays are unfair in their hardest difficulty setting because they are not built for that mode, instead they are built in normal difficulty and then they just scale the damages and do some tweaks to get a hard mode. I don't really play most games on their hardest difficulty setting because I don't find them rewarding I find them frustrating.
Giving an actual example near the beginning of shadow complex there was a save after falling from an air vent that didn't have health packs and I couldn't go back up so they only way to advance was to move forward. After playing that part for a while and failing I realized I had to run through it shooting only the enemies that were in my path and praying that the ones in the background didnt shoot me fast enough. I got stuck there for about and hour, and whenever I finished this I didn't feel acomplished I felt relieved because I thought that the whole thing was unfair.
On the other hand there are some genres like music games and shmups where the challenge makes the game fun. Most of these games are designed to be hard and although they are balanced across all difficulties they are more rewarding whenever they are beat in their hardest setting. I feel that in these games even minimal progress is very rewarding because you feel that you have earned it.
tl;dr In most modern games the difficulty is usually low or moderate because they are designed to be beaten by everyone who puts in the time and the harder modes are made tweaking this initial setting which in some games works and in others doesn't which leads to frustration. In contrast old school games or genres that originated in the arcade are usually harder but they require knowledge of the game mechanics and particular skills but they are more rewarding when these are learned.
Difficulty when used right can make a game fun and rewarding if used wrong it can make the game unfair.
I hate the "old school" kind of difficult (and people who claim it to be the peak of game design and say that everything released after the SNES era is a bunch of wussy-catering shit), I hate it with a burning passion.
I've played them on emulators just to see what's on offer using save stating and it's just plain boring after you take out all the frustration.
With most shooters, I play on the regular difficulties and get all hot and bothered after dying 50 times in a row at the same damn spot (enter CoD). But there's usually a workaround, something that I personally did wrong and could improve upon, and after finding it, there really is a slight sense of achievement.
So it's kinda weird. Games that are too easy bore me quickly. Games that like to get me killed in really cheap ways make me burst an artery (CoD on anything other than regular). But then again, you could have something like Arkham Asylum that is quite easy but then comes the god damn Scarecrow fight that requires precise timing beyond my pretty impatient capabilities and zero satisfaction when you actually beat it because the only thing I did was passing a test on my patience.
I liked the difficulty in Mass Effect. If you didn't pay attention, a roomful of enemies could rip you to shreds in no time. You had to utilize to the tools at your disposal and pay attention to your surroundings, but at the same time, there was still room for error and it never got frustrating. It was quite easy once you unlocked some of the higher skills, but you could never fully let your guard go down.
@ Kaspar
"With most shooters, I play on the regular difficulties and get all hot and bothered after dying 50 times in a row at the same damn spot (enter CoD)."
ummmmmm....you're using that phrase...not...the right....way...
@Anthony
Don't worry about the other merchants: all you need is Patches ;D
I'm glad you rebought it, but I'm sad that you still think it's mostly memory based. I would contend most of the game is precision dodging, and as such, skill based. I would recommend you use a bow and arrow build.
A game's progression and level design also incorporate how rewarding a game is to play. Games like "I Wonna Be the Guy," an incredibly difficult platformer, constantly toss you curve balls at what levels and monsters you will encounter. The game keeps you playing to see what's waiting around the next corner while using difficulty to make the game feel more accomplishing.
At the same time, I agree that being too hard can turn a lot of gamers off from playing. But the idea that every new game is easy is a crock of sh*t. I just played through Uncharted 2, and I died a lot even on normal settings. Someone also mentioned Mass Effect, a game that is grueling to play through if you don't take time to learn the strengths and weaknesses of your character.
There is one thing all games do have in common though. If you can push the right button at the right time, you'll win. Whether it's Demon's Souls or Mass Effect.
Jabberwalk:
That feeling you describe of seeing a Deathclaw and shitting your pants is exactly what I want to feel in a game. I'm just kind of flabbergasted that the only games which are capable of doing this either require the player to self-enforce difficulty (what you did with your character, or trying permadeath runs or whatever), or overreach with difficulty so much that they become distancing and kind of unfair.
It just seems bizarre that there aren't, to my mind, any games that set out to convey that "oh fuck a Deathclaw" emotion as their primary goal, and can do it without pissing players off.
Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?
Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!
Contest:
3:00 PM on 01.06.2010
| 
For action games, or games designed around combat and exploration, (such as demon's souls) I think it's a great change of pace.
However, the reason why Demon's souls still holds up with on such a hard difficulty, is because of many other factors including level design, character customization, startling ambushes, the entire multiplayer aspect, etc.
I think it takes all these things combined to make a gamer not lose patience with a difficult game.
Also, Veteran mode.
You really lost me on this one. I just can't figure out what you mean.
I am one of those people. I hated Requiem for a Dream, and I hated No Country for Old Men. That said, I would still be interested in trying out Pathologic, because I guess I'm okay with a videogame making me feel like trash, just not a movie.
Demon's Souls and The Void are hard because their mechanics are hard to understand. Because it's hard to figure out how the game works (which The Void does on purpose), you're always having to be on the lookout for things that can kill you.
I think in some games, the difficulty is necessary. 8 bit Megaman games (well any old school, one-hit-you-die platformer really) come to mind - if not for the difficulty, the games really wouldn't be that enjoyable. Games like Demon's Souls are just an extreme continuation of that concept. And I think what makes those games fun is the fact that you have a reason to finally be able to celebrate victories (after countless deaths) and just go "TAKE THAT, BITCH!" over the boss's corpse.
Is it possible to get that feeling without the challenge? Personally, I don't have any idea how you could do it...the fact that I did something uberly hard is the only thing that makes me feel that accomplished. But hey, if somebody finds a way to make me feel that way at the snap of a finger, they'll be my new god.
i got the same feeling with the last Castlevania(Order of Ecclesia) and im glad to know that im not alone with that strange sense of something being soo difficult, that beating a boss or advance a hard part is soo rewarding..
The game got easier as it went on. You just gave up too quickly and sold it.
I thought you said Cthulu did this, in a previous rant.
Buying The Void due to this, by the way.
In general though, I think Crushing difficulties have there place but in most cases I find them to be done poorly.
If a game's idea of difficulty is just doing repetive things over and over hoping you won't die, thats stupid.
I'm confused about the rant mentioned 'Frustration' a lot. In my mind, you get Frustrated when you die, and it wasn't 100% you fault. I don't think this is a good thing and I also believe that a game can be 'crushing' without being frustrating.
Crushing has it's place, but I rarely see it done properly.
One way to incorporate its lie-to-the-player techniques in a more accessible game, though, might be an Assassin's Creed/GTA/sandboxy game in which there are unforseen consequences to killing your targets, and only once the player feels bad about doing it do they realize that they can lie right back to the game, saying they completed objectives which they didn't.
You hated No Country For Old Men? Booooo for you sir, where did I put my cow killing gun :P
I hate extremely difficult games. Games which are too easy, however, have no tension or excitement to them. But I do not want to play a game in which I die 30 times before I can progress, only to die another 30 times (Like the mission "Takedown" on Vetern in MW2). In all my games I play on normal until I get stuck, then I'll switch it to easy. I'll switch it back to normal after a certain section.
My brother on the other hand, loves difficult games. Demon Soul's is exactly his sort of thing. He played MW2 on Veteran first and will not play it on any other difficulty. With any game he immediately switches to the hardest setting available. Narrative and all that stuff is not the reason he plays anything. He plays it simply for the challenge. Hell he bought extra copies of borderlands just so he could play a 4 player game (with four player difficulty) by himself (the other, mindless players he leaves at the start of the level or in town). He did a similar thing with Diablo II.
I cannot understand why he does this. But for some players, there is no need to "mesh" anything. For some players, extreme difficulty is the reason for playing itself. And for others, like me, difficulty is unwelcome. I play for story and for spectacle. He plays for the sheer challenge and never shall the two groups ever find a game they can both fully enjoy - unless the developer specifically designs the game with an ultra hard and very easy mode.
There is a most effective way to take down X enemy, so you use that strategy, then rinse and repeat, with no room for error, over and over and over... Yes, you definitely get a sense of accomplishment, but I find myself less likely to go back and replay these games after I've beaten them. One you take a break and allow yourself to get "out of the zone", getting back into that zone doesn't always strike me as fun.
Just like manic shmups, super-hard beat-em-up/hack-and-slash games will always have a place in my heart, but that place will always be below games that offer a stronger focus on freedom, atmosphere and exploration.
I did this too in Twilight Princess but not because I felt any trepidation from the game's difficulty level. I was pretty confident that I was going to beat Ganon handily. And I did. For me, I'm perfectly willing to build up the difficulty in my mind to make the experience feel like it should. And the aesthetics help a lot in that matter. Link's journey up those steps was filled with ominous music and lightning flashes. And I took that atmosphere and just ran with it. Difficulty has never really contributed to my emotional reaction to a game in a way that wasn't completely negative. The only time I notice the difficulty in a game is when it's too hard and keeping me from enjoying it.
@Rev
Having not played those games but having felt the difference between Expert and Normal on Left 4 Dead 1/2, I think a lot of that "intentionality" is lost when you transition to Expert. And it's altogether not an enjoyable experience after a while. I suppose it motivates one at times to try fresh tactics but it also reduces the ability to experiment on the fly. On a personal note, I never receive a lasting feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment from beating a game on a challenging difficulty. Way I'm wired, I suppose.
Having said that, I still found the experience IMENSLY pleasurable (it's even GOTY as far as I'm concerned), so maybe the game really does have a small amount of flaws, can't say the same thing about Pathologic thou, it's still on my "to play list", and demon's souls... well, I don't have e console sadly, would love to try it out.
But in other games, like "Don't look back" for example, I think half the "impact" of the game (or rather, the ending) would be gone, and it's not that the game is "flawed" in some way, but... well you know, you played it :) (think it was in one of the indie nations... I think... if not http://www.kongregate.com/games/TerryCavanagh/dont-look-back, really a good example of how the difficulty of a game drives home it's message)
Another example would be Braid, if it was an easy game, the ending would lose a lot of it's "oumph". Wish I can name more games that use difficulty to enhance the impact of the story, but I'm drawing a blank, guys? maybe you can help?
"The game got easier as it went on. You just gave up too quickly and sold it."
And then I rebought it. And kept playing it. And it was still too hard, and too predicated on memorization or tedium.
I really dunno what it is with people flat-out misrepresenting difficult games (is it so you can feel better about being good at them by pretending they didn't present a challenge?), especially one where late in the game an NPC will, without warning, start killing unrespawnable merchants whose help you undoubtedly need to complete the game.
Basically I was playing with a friend and we were walking through every mission and got to about level 10. We looked at the mission board and decided to take on a level 16 mission. Sure we had to work together on every kill hitting them with lightening to weaken shields and try to take down as much health as we could before retreating to cover and waiting for our shields to replenish. Looking back this was probably a little repetitive, but there are a wide variety of foes and weapons involved so it never got old and every kill was followed by a we-almost-just-died fist bump (as opposed to the we just shot that fish in a barrel shrug). Huge sense of accomplishment, but always felt somewhat in control and could still spend time looting once we killed everyone.
Of course after that we came back and started playing the missions we should have done first, which were just too easy. At least we walked right through them like demigods and replenished our cash and supplies very quickly.
I would bring up something I've found from playing Torchlight, most notably the fact that I sometimes forget to keep an eye on my health meter due to being so absorbed in whatever 50 vs 1 brawl I've picked out at the time. This is something I've only found Torchlight doing as keeping health meters off to one side forces you to constantly think about your well-being, something I often forget about during a fight. Having a level of immersion that makes you forget about your basic gamer instincts to check your health every few seconds is a sort of difficulty not many games try I think.
Another way to look at this situation is to have story lines that constantly pressure you to not die, while also putting you on the brink of death and its consequences. Take Fable 2 and its "scarring" concept. If you fail in your story of Fable, you receive a Scarlett Letter in the form of a permanent disfigurement. This innovation makes ANY small battle that you are close to the point of dying seem like a great accomplishment. It also makes losing apart of your story, thus not breaking the storyline.
Another idea is an "exponentially decaying life bar". In COD and similar FPSs your screen is quick to turn completely red and put you close to the edge of death, but really you have much more life on the "red to dead" part of your life bar, than the one bullet it takes to throw some of that famous MW2 strawberry jelly on your screen. This means the player emotionally feels on the verge of death much more often than they really are, preserving that helplessness emotion, without truly punishing the player with excessive difficulty.
Whoa...long post...my bad...in summation I think there are a lot techniques game developers are using today that do work in most situations to make a satisfying game. Perhaps (and I truly mean no offense) your clammering for extreme difficulties is a bit of a masochistic personality trait and something you just enjoy despite the constant breaking of a cohesive storyline which is something you advocate more in other rants and other video games.
Difficulty settings changed it from easy to all-but-impossible and would so so on the fly at no cost to the player. But again, it was both, but not at the same time.
A fun fact: I loved Fallout 3 and Oblivion more when I didn't understand them. Because I didn't understand fast travel, resting leveling and many other important game aspects.
I felt like I had to fight to survive and that made every battle where I didn't die one to remember. However once I understood how to play the difficulty instantly droped off.
So now I wonder, was it my discovering the game that I enjoyed, or the struggle to survive and the thrill of victory.
If victory cames without cost then it is as if you did nothing.
Note: When I say "discovering the game" I don't mean exploring or questing or finding hidden treasure. Ok I do mean those things, but I also mean discovering how to play the game, the mechanaics controls what kind of game and how to play it.
Ahhh crap, whent off a a tangent there didin't I? Well Ilm not deleting all that!
While accessible and not brutally difficult I can't think of a time where I have been more sold in a game then standing in a tiny dark shadow in Thief 1 listening through headphones as a guard walked his way towards me. Yeah death didn't effect you much in the game but the environment and sense of fear was something I will never forget.
And no I need to go play it again. Thanks Anthony :P
That's insane and hateful. Game design by misanthropes.
I'll also stop here to say: saying you beat a "difficult game" or some game isn't "difficult to beat" also doesn't qualify as Anthony is talking about video game experiences in a subjective and relative term. Therefore "difficulty" is relative to the player, and should be defined as a situation that forces a player to feel increased levels of duress as they play it.
With this definition, I would argue that video games should adopt a LFD2 approach and make the game harder/easier as you are doing better/worse.
fuck this is hard
i really want to get into it and i keep trying but fuck
ill give it a few more shots before i accept i cant do it
With my main character I pumped the luck and sneak stats, ignored strenght, endurance and small arm, wore the Vault utility outfit the whole game and relied mainly on explosives and stealth to win battles. Sure the character was quasi-gimped (as you level on in the game especially Broken Steel you inevitably become a demi-god no matter what your intentions are) but it was super rewarding to go through the Fallout world with such a vulnerable and interesting character. I watched my friend play with his Powerarmored, pluse rifle weilding super soldier and his mutant-for-hire bodygaurd and he would just stand there with a Deathclaw attacking him. What fun is that? I want to feel terrified when a Deathclaw comes ripping out of the darkness snarling at me! Can I get the mines down and run or is it too late!? When was my last save? OH NOES!
And then I rebought it. And kept playing it. And it was still too hard, and too predicated on memorization or tedium.
I really dunno what it is with people flat-out misrepresenting difficult games (is it so you can feel better about being good at them by pretending they didn't present a challenge?)
My thoughts exactly, I'm sick of people claiming games are hard or they are some super mega gamer because they memorize bits of a tedious game by doing small sections over and over and over again, blah.
I don't really enjoy games for the challenge most of the time. I really just play games for the story and/or experience. I do feel proud for beating the epilogue of MW on Veteran though. Good Rant.
While I do think that those games could be interesting and rewarding because of the difficulty, that shouldn't be an excuse for poor design. But since I can't comment on those games, because I haven't played them I could give you an example in some other games.
I feel that most games nowadays are unfair in their hardest difficulty setting because they are not built for that mode, instead they are built in normal difficulty and then they just scale the damages and do some tweaks to get a hard mode. I don't really play most games on their hardest difficulty setting because I don't find them rewarding I find them frustrating.
Giving an actual example near the beginning of shadow complex there was a save after falling from an air vent that didn't have health packs and I couldn't go back up so they only way to advance was to move forward. After playing that part for a while and failing I realized I had to run through it shooting only the enemies that were in my path and praying that the ones in the background didnt shoot me fast enough. I got stuck there for about and hour, and whenever I finished this I didn't feel acomplished I felt relieved because I thought that the whole thing was unfair.
On the other hand there are some genres like music games and shmups where the challenge makes the game fun. Most of these games are designed to be hard and although they are balanced across all difficulties they are more rewarding whenever they are beat in their hardest setting. I feel that in these games even minimal progress is very rewarding because you feel that you have earned it.
tl;dr In most modern games the difficulty is usually low or moderate because they are designed to be beaten by everyone who puts in the time and the harder modes are made tweaking this initial setting which in some games works and in others doesn't which leads to frustration. In contrast old school games or genres that originated in the arcade are usually harder but they require knowledge of the game mechanics and particular skills but they are more rewarding when these are learned.
Difficulty when used right can make a game fun and rewarding if used wrong it can make the game unfair.
I've played them on emulators just to see what's on offer using save stating and it's just plain boring after you take out all the frustration.
With most shooters, I play on the regular difficulties and get all hot and bothered after dying 50 times in a row at the same damn spot (enter CoD). But there's usually a workaround, something that I personally did wrong and could improve upon, and after finding it, there really is a slight sense of achievement.
So it's kinda weird. Games that are too easy bore me quickly. Games that like to get me killed in really cheap ways make me burst an artery (CoD on anything other than regular). But then again, you could have something like Arkham Asylum that is quite easy but then comes the god damn Scarecrow fight that requires precise timing beyond my pretty impatient capabilities and zero satisfaction when you actually beat it because the only thing I did was passing a test on my patience.
I liked the difficulty in Mass Effect. If you didn't pay attention, a roomful of enemies could rip you to shreds in no time. You had to utilize to the tools at your disposal and pay attention to your surroundings, but at the same time, there was still room for error and it never got frustrating. It was quite easy once you unlocked some of the higher skills, but you could never fully let your guard go down.
"With most shooters, I play on the regular difficulties and get all hot and bothered after dying 50 times in a row at the same damn spot (enter CoD)."
ummmmmm....you're using that phrase...not...the right....way...
Don't worry about the other merchants: all you need is Patches ;D
I'm glad you rebought it, but I'm sad that you still think it's mostly memory based. I would contend most of the game is precision dodging, and as such, skill based. I would recommend you use a bow and arrow build.
At the same time, I agree that being too hard can turn a lot of gamers off from playing. But the idea that every new game is easy is a crock of sh*t. I just played through Uncharted 2, and I died a lot even on normal settings. Someone also mentioned Mass Effect, a game that is grueling to play through if you don't take time to learn the strengths and weaknesses of your character.
There is one thing all games do have in common though. If you can push the right button at the right time, you'll win. Whether it's Demon's Souls or Mass Effect.
That feeling you describe of seeing a Deathclaw and shitting your pants is exactly what I want to feel in a game. I'm just kind of flabbergasted that the only games which are capable of doing this either require the player to self-enforce difficulty (what you did with your character, or trying permadeath runs or whatever), or overreach with difficulty so much that they become distancing and kind of unfair.
It just seems bizarre that there aren't, to my mind, any games that set out to convey that "oh fuck a Deathclaw" emotion as their primary goal, and can do it without pissing players off.