11:04 PM on 09.08.2007
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Dyson
Remember in Rocky, when Rocky gets all beat down, and then he trains really hard, and comes back in the end of the movie to try and whip some ass? And in the big match at the end, where the it looks like he's not gonna win and you're like, "Oh noes!", but Rock powers through the match and wins?*
This bonus episode of RFGO! is just like that. Chad and I fight like men possessed over our previously discussed points of view about whether or not we think that Metroid Prime 3 is a true Metroid game.
Highlights!
- Chad still loves dolphins
- Prime fans will continue to hate me
- I still think that you're all delusional
- We all make out at the end
We'll still be recording our weekly show tomorrow, so consider this show an extension of last Tuesday's. Listen here.
*[I've never actually watched a Rocky movie, but I'm pretty sure that this happens in at least one of them.]
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Contest:
Primes are metroid. Quit with the bullshit. Even assuming that is correct, which it isn't, they are still insanely kickass games.
If you consider the Metroid Prime games first person shooters rather than first person adventure games, because the viewpoint is first person (inarguably) and you shoot stuff, why are the 2D Metroid games considered adventures and not 2D shooters? I mean, it's 2D and you still shoot stuff, right?
While I agree that the 2D Metroid games are better, I disagree with your assertion that the Metroid Prime games are not Metroid.
"Are there metroids? Are there Puzzles? Is there samus? Is there plenty of retraversal? Then its a metroid game. Next!"
Maybe it would help if I phrased my POV like this:
Castlevania: The First Person Shoo.. Adventure!
Are there vampires? Are there puzzles? Is there a Belmont? Is there plenty of retraversal? Then it's a Castlevania game. Next!
Would you really want a FPS style Belmont adventure?
I'll answer questions after everyone has actually listened to the show, first.
Rock on yourself, madninja
(What the fuck does retraversal mean?)
Not being a religious person but it violates the 2nd commandment, because the entire fucking game feels like intelligent design.
Is Zelda II a Zelda game?
Is Resident Evil 4 a Resident Evil game?
"Where are we going." "Huh-ha-hah-hu-ha!" "Bad guy!"
Is Super Mario Bros 2 a real mario game?
Are Mario's blue pants real pants?
More pointless questions and more on the next episode of
RETROFORCEGO!
@Dyson
You might want to check out Rocky. ADRIAN! Awesome.
Metroid game = Metroid game, further definitions suck as hard as the wars people wage over what metal genres their favorite (and moreso least favorite) bands fit into. For metal, I just say "good" or "bad" and what's special about it; fast, heavy, emotional, technical, well produced... For Metroid, I guess I'll just say "good" or "bad" and what's special about it; 2D, 3D, scroller, first person view. So far, in my opinion, they've all been good in their own ways. Haven't tried or seen Corruption yet, but that shit sounds hot!
As for #13 (Dyson); of course that would be a Castlevania game and I would call it Castlevania, and so should everyone else. Now, we'd all likely cry doing it considering the chances of the game failing horribly, but it would still be a bad Castlevania game.
While you are of course fully entitled to your opinion which I won't try to change, I (while loving the 2D Metroids and hoping there'll be more) just don't see what the problem is with a first person 3D Metroid. You shoot which works better than I imagine wielding the Vampire Killer would (and is, in general, the main point about first person games), you explore and try to find stuff which works very well or even better (freeroaming would seem more... free, and you can view most stuff from any angle of choice) and the story, characters, locations, music, mood is Metroid...
While listening yesterday there was a small part I didn't quite pay enough attention to as I was trying (and failing) to multitask, but it was about you all being, or not being, first person players at all. I guess I should re-listen, but maybe you (all) could elaborate on how (you think) your FPS gaming experience/s/ influence your opinion on the Prime games? If possible, that is. I'd have a hard time explaining I think, but I could see my >10 years PC FPS gaming history perhaps allowing me to just embrace these games without questioning anything as long as the world seen through that visor is "Metroid". I dunno.
Random Person One: What's Metroid Prime?
Random Person Two: It's a first person shooter
That's so not the way to describe the game , Metroid Prime is so much more than just another first person shooter. The game has first person shooting elements, I won't deny it but I feel Metroid Prime is closer to the adventure genre than the first person shooter genre so that's why I have no problem calling it a first person adventure, it has nothing to do with buying into whatever Nintendo wants you to believe.
I cannot speak for Metroid Prime 3 yet because I don't own it yet but as far as Metroid Prime 1/2 goes, I've finished both games twice and I've completed both games 100%. Scans, item collection, hard mode, the whole thing. To me at least it really does feel like a Metroid game in 3D. Is it the PERFECT transition to 3D? To me it's pretty much as good as it gets, you can't just take the 2D game, make it 3D & hope it works out. There has to be changes.
So you can complain about the first person view in Metroid. Well I guess Zelda is not that great of a jump to 3D considering the camera is no longer a top down view but rather placed behind Link. Super Mario 64 is not a true Mario game, it's no longer about running towards the end of the level but rather collecting stars to progress.
No one complained about Zelda & Mario, When you go 3D you have to make changes, what worked in 2D does not always work in 3D. Sometimes it does, great, but sometimes changes are needed. As for Metroid Prime not being a Metroid game that's rather harsh, to flat out deny it being a Metroid game. It's more of a Metroid game than Pinball, Hunters, Metroid 2 & Fusion in my opinion. You complain about being told what to do in Metroid Prime 3, it feels mission based. Well explain Metroid Fusion, is it because Fusion is 2D it gets a free pass?
Not just with the Prime series but Metroid in general, to me personally at least it don't feel ALL that much like a Metroid game until you play a good chunk of the game.
To me when the Metroid feel really kicks in is when you start backtracking, re-exploring areas you've been to see what you might as missed, using items from later on in the game in earlier sections of the game, when the puzzles really get your head thinking.
I know I know, I wrote too much, I'm an idiot but that's just the type of person I am. You have to admit, all this discussion does make the whole thing more interesting. While we may not agree at least it shows we are passionate about gaming. Don't worry about "offending" the listeners like myself, no offence taken an opinion is an opinion. Just because I write loads don't mean your opinion is invalid, I'm simply putting mine across too.
Good work Chad & Dyson, the whole thing was entertaining and yes dolphins rock.
"Castlevania: The First Person Shoo.. Adventure!
Are there vampires? Are there puzzles? Is there a Belmont? Is there plenty of retraversal? Then it's a Castlevania game. Next!"
Yup, that would make it a Castlevania game.
1) In the first-person perspective
2) You have a gun, and you shoot it.
I agree with that characterization, but I do not think that that characterization is all-inclusive.
I think the essence of why people feel MP is a "first person adventure" is this: In most FPSs, killing is the object of the game, and the story is in the peripheral--you can go through the whole game skipping every story element and still have fun (or not even have a story, a la Serious Sam). However, in the Metroid Prime series, getting pulled into the Metroid universe is the object of the game--the story is essential--and the FPS element is just one of many vehicles used to help you grasp the story.
Imagine trying to play MP as a traditional FPS where you simply want to run and gun. It wouldn't be fun anymore. You commented on how there are only two or three enemies per four rooms. That is the difference between the MP series and other FPSs. You play Metroid to be pulled into the universe; you play Halo to shoot things dead. I think most people who got bored with Metroid Prime 1 and 2 didn't understand this difference. It requires a different mindset, and an appreciation for storytelling.
With it being said that the FPS element is not the main attraction, then surely it could have been done as a 3rd person shooter. Retro could have made it into a Zelda clone, and it still could have kicked ass. (Would we be here today whining about Metroid being a Zelda clone?) In fact, IIRC Retro's first builds were as a 3rd person shooter, but they could just not get it to work well because the camera didn't work well in close quarters. But, if it had worked, wouldn't we be here discussing whether the MP series qualifies as a full-fledged 3rd person shooter? If you can imagine that argument, then you have to acknowledge there is some element in the MP series that lies outside the characterization as a FPS/ 3rd person shoot/ etc, and that is why people consider it a "first person shooter/adventure" game.
I hadn't thought about it actually, but when you mentioned the enemy quantity and their implementation I thought you made your best point arguing for your opinion. It is a fairly significant change to what is "Metroid", and it's up to each and every one to like it or not. Though even if you don't like it, I'm not sure it's fair to say "it's not Metroid", because it is this Metroid! It is not the old Metroid, but this isn't a remake, it's a new game! Personally, I'm happy with the changes made for the 3D world, and that's my opinion - just as that it would be super special awesome(c) if they made more 2D Metroids in the same vein as the old ones.
'Tis all opinions! Yay for the 'pinions!
Ack! Almost forgot. Laughed my ass off again, thanks for another great episode!
- ...and by the time I was done writing this and laundry and whatnot there were some more comments I see, just ignore me if I'm repeating shit.
(I like Metroid too)
Theres no guns in metroid....
You dont shot, the prime series = First Person Blaster
or FPBB
the extra B is for BYOBB
From what I could tell though, aside from all the First Person bitching (which is bullshit by the way, third person would have been worse, it was as good as you can get for 3d, but arguing over that point is futile), Dyson's other problem has been the pacing. The old Metroid games all rewarded you for running through the game fast with the best ending. So once you beat the game, there was incentive to master it like that. Metroid Prime is obviously a more meticulous thing, not meant for speed running. So it certainly deviates from the series there.
I swear to god I was going to fucking kill you when you said something along the lines of "what is this item collection doing in my Metroid?" (in the original podcast). And this is my point where I feel Prime always felt like Metroid to me. I never played the old Metroid games for speed. I always took my time, explored, and tried to find as much as possible. It was bout getting as many missile expansions, energy tanks, and upgrades as possible. Thus allowing you to breeze through areas once challenging, and reaching areas once unreachable.
Metroid Prime had all of that implemented nigh flawlessly onto the 3d plane. It was why it was the only game in the last five years I played nonstop once I got it. It's the same premise behind why the Metroidvania games are so addicting. That is the core reason why it feels like Metroid TO ME. I don't care to listen to any more arguments, I just want to explain why I like it, and feel it is faithful to my vision of Metroid.
item collecting: check
bosses: check
huge worlds: check
exploration: check
increasing health(? lol): check
sense of loneliness: check
somewhat climactic plot twists: check?
metroids: check
Kraid: EPIC PHAIL
points in the prime series being a first person shooter:
first person view:check, hud display inside helmet industry first?
shooting: check
guns: uh..... kinda?
ammo: dark/light beams, check
levels: more like areas...that you revisit
wait... whats the discussion about again?
Sharpless, you leave my socks out of this. They didn't do anything to you.
Other guy? The guy arguing that Metroid IS linear (because it is)... you should fucking kick the non-linear guy in the fucking nuts because he's a fucking idiot.
Don't have a copy of Metroid Prime? No problem, I'll send you one. I'll even attach a kitten. I dunno if it'll make it through the mail, though...
"Some guy"? I hate your face. I will battle-axe your face.
::Viking pose::