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It isn't the video game industry that isn't following rules, it's stupid retailers.
I look like I'm around 16 or 17 (I'm 23), but I only get carded about half the time when I buy M rated games. I get carded EVERY time when I buy R rated movies.
I can understand what they want here but they are totally missing the source of this problem and playing the easy "it's the game industry's fault!" card.
That being said, I'm from California, and I've really liked what Schwarzenegger has been doing for the most part, but this is just really retarded.
I look like I'm around 16 or 17 (I'm 23), but I only get carded about half the time when I buy M rated games. I get carded EVERY time when I buy R rated movies.
I can understand what they want here but they are totally missing the source of this problem and playing the easy "it's the game industry's fault!" card.
That being said, I'm from California, and I've really liked what Schwarzenegger has been doing for the most part, but this is just really retarded.
I'd like somebody to explain to me why this legislation would be unconstitutional, or in any way a bad thing. I'm not trying to be pedantic, I just want it explained to me because it is beyond me. I don't understand what people mean when they say 'unconstitutional'.
UglyDuck: I'll let an American talk constitution, but my personal issue with this game is the fact that it's an unnecessary waste of energy and money. The law won't change anything. The game industry already abides by the ESRB voluntarily, and whether it's controlled by the government or not won't stop stupid retailers from selling to minors. Just look at the UK. There are plenty of punishments for selling booze, smokes and other materials to minors, but that hasn't stopped kids being able to get their hands on the stuff.
This is essentially a law to reinforce something that is already in effect, except it gives more power to people who shouldn't really have it. The fact that the government claims to have no money, yet governors can throw money around like water for any pet project they desire, thoroughly sickens me.
This is essentially a law to reinforce something that is already in effect, except it gives more power to people who shouldn't really have it. The fact that the government claims to have no money, yet governors can throw money around like water for any pet project they desire, thoroughly sickens me.
Enforcing self regulation? What? What bullshit, the ESRB does a fine job of listing the RATINGS for the game, blame the retail worker or parents. Fucking PTC.
@ UglyDuck:
Without actually looking over the brief I can only assume that the constitutionality has some basis in the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause of same. Basically, equal protection has been expanded to include businesses being classified as "people" and therefore act as a citizen in the eyes of the court. Since this law is attempting to single out the video game rating system and only penalize the video game industry, they are being unfairly singled out. Since the movie industry has the same type of rating system that is voluntarily agreed upon, and is not backed up by any sort of law or punishment that can be enforced with a fine/jailtime from the actual state, the courts can't let the movie industry continue on a voluntary basis while making video games forcibly regulated. Therefore, the "rights" of the video game industry are being violated.
kinda clear? it's all murky crap.
Without actually looking over the brief I can only assume that the constitutionality has some basis in the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause of same. Basically, equal protection has been expanded to include businesses being classified as "people" and therefore act as a citizen in the eyes of the court. Since this law is attempting to single out the video game rating system and only penalize the video game industry, they are being unfairly singled out. Since the movie industry has the same type of rating system that is voluntarily agreed upon, and is not backed up by any sort of law or punishment that can be enforced with a fine/jailtime from the actual state, the courts can't let the movie industry continue on a voluntary basis while making video games forcibly regulated. Therefore, the "rights" of the video game industry are being violated.
kinda clear? it's all murky crap.
It's a violation of the 1st amendment right of free speech since it unduly restricts the ability of the developers' to express themselves to its audience. The government can only outright restrict speech if it is deemed "obscene" which is a pretty high standard. It would basically have to be unacceptable to everyone everywhere. The government has always been wary of mandatory ratings systems therefore have never mandated them for other industries like the movie and television industries. The only media that the government has had a real stranglehold on is broadcast tv/radio since it's free and accessible. Games however are completely different since people have to buy them to get the content inside. There's more to it than that but long story short...this is a very very complicated issue.
@Shadowiii
I completely agree with you. This is an issue that's happening at the retail level, not at the game development level.
I've gone through the ESRB ratings process many times, and their ratings standards are as stringent or MORE stringent than the movie industry. There have an ESRB descriptor for "Comic Mischief", for crying out loud. I can think of several popular children's books that wouldn't even make the E rating.
Seems to me SOMEONE is feeling a little guilty for contributing to our love of blowing things up.
p.s. It's not a toom-ah.
I completely agree with you. This is an issue that's happening at the retail level, not at the game development level.
I've gone through the ESRB ratings process many times, and their ratings standards are as stringent or MORE stringent than the movie industry. There have an ESRB descriptor for "Comic Mischief", for crying out loud. I can think of several popular children's books that wouldn't even make the E rating.
Seems to me SOMEONE is feeling a little guilty for contributing to our love of blowing things up.
p.s. It's not a toom-ah.
@Jim Sterling:
I agree with you that this is a colossal waste of time and money, on top of being unconstitutional. Welcome to how we do things in California.
In any case, I don't agree with you that implementing the law will not stop retailers from selling to minors. I think that the law would curb it dramatically. If there's a risk of fines to be paid by retailers for breaking the law, you can bet there would be strict new policies in place the very next day.
Ultimately, I don't agree with the law, but I think it would be too unrealistic to think that implementing real punishments would not actually prevent minors from buying M games.
I agree with you that this is a colossal waste of time and money, on top of being unconstitutional. Welcome to how we do things in California.
In any case, I don't agree with you that implementing the law will not stop retailers from selling to minors. I think that the law would curb it dramatically. If there's a risk of fines to be paid by retailers for breaking the law, you can bet there would be strict new policies in place the very next day.
Ultimately, I don't agree with the law, but I think it would be too unrealistic to think that implementing real punishments would not actually prevent minors from buying M games.
I think X-play best summed this issue up years ago...
If the PTC focused it's efforts on punishing the retailers directly with boycotts and smear campaigns until they held up the industries rating system, they'd be able to exact real change. Instead, they're wasting legislators' time, the high court's time, and millions of taxpayer dollars. Shit, families with children don't even pay as much federal tax as a couple without. Fuck the PTC. I'll raise my child how I see fit. Stop trying to use my money for things I disagree with. You want to waste your time on boycotts putting presure on businesses to help parent children whose parents aren't, go ahead. But this pissing away of public funds during a global recession us unacceptible.
Arnold has been doing more around here to drive the recession deeper than you can imagine in order to push his own long term goals to shrink government by cutting salaries and laying off state workers, cut money from education, reduce health services and now he will be cutting department of corrections which is going to allow early release for a number of prisoners in the face of a recession- and worst of all in all of this- vital services have had to be increased due to his "across the board cuts" plan and as a result the state has been laying of from independently funded agencies and replacing them with high cost short term contractors which will in the long run cost the state millions more than if the workers were originally left in place as well as reduce the expendable income needed to increase purchasing power.....
so wasting money for ideology- not surprised
hopefully he gets his ass recalled (as there is a movement to do so) because california is 1/5 of the entire US economy so like it or not if we struggle the rest of the country does.
so wasting money for ideology- not surprised
hopefully he gets his ass recalled (as there is a movement to do so) because california is 1/5 of the entire US economy so like it or not if we struggle the rest of the country does.
@ Im OK
And that is exactly why the proposed law was declared unconstitutional, forcing California to appeal to the Supreme Court, those examples do not happen.
It's much ado about nothing anyway, the Supreme Court won't take this case, it will die until the Parent's Group makes another publicity grab.
And that is exactly why the proposed law was declared unconstitutional, forcing California to appeal to the Supreme Court, those examples do not happen.
It's much ado about nothing anyway, the Supreme Court won't take this case, it will die until the Parent's Group makes another publicity grab.
@ Im OK
And that is exactly why the proposed law was declared unconstitutional, forcing California to appeal to the Supreme Court, those examples do not happen.
It's much ado about nothing anyway, the Supreme Court won't take this case, it will die until the Parent's Group makes another publicity grab.
And that is exactly why the proposed law was declared unconstitutional, forcing California to appeal to the Supreme Court, those examples do not happen.
It's much ado about nothing anyway, the Supreme Court won't take this case, it will die until the Parent's Group makes another publicity grab.
Funny thing is Jim, that's really NOT a minigun. It was a prop made from the parts from a helicopter gun turret. Or at least that's the story I've heard.
As it goes things are run here by (uh in the US) the "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" rules. I'm pretty sure Arnold don't give a flying fuck about games but what he does want is support and he probably got it. Now I thank my lucky stars games aren't taken to seriously otherwise this bill may have passed.
fuck his wife god damn cunt
fuck his wife god damn cunt
I'm so happy Arnie decided to jump into the debate...Lord knows he has nothing going on in the great state of California, like a 21 BILLION $ deficit. Why not try to use up what little money is in the coffers wasting time with video game legislation. It isn't like they've had to resort to cutting state employees work hours to help keep people employed...Oh yeah, they did that too...
Nothing says necessary legislation like video game violence...
Nothing says necessary legislation like video game violence...
you would think Arnold of all people would be able to understand fictional violence is not worth getting all worked up over....
Arnold's political career is at an end. Can't run for re-election, has absolutely zero support from the republican party for a congressional race (not that they could afford to give it to him) and had the unfortunate position of being the fall guy for an already dire economic situation in California. Frankly, I'm surprised he managed to do as well as he has under the circumstances.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that this law is unconstitutional. It wouldn't violate the first amendment in that it isn't outright banning the availability of such content, merely restricting it to those considered in the age of majority. And the first amendment would be the one any lawyer would be going for because I honestly can't see the fourteenth coming into play in any relevant fashion despite what BudBoy311 suggests.
The thing is, I feel like organizations such as the PTC are going about this all wrong. If they want to affect the industry, go directly at the industry. The only thing corporations respond to is profit. Affect their profits and you can affect the way they do business. I think that the money put forth by the PTC (and other groups of this nature) in lobbying politicians could be much better spent informing consumers about the "dire threat" that videogames pose for the nation's youth and encouraging a boycott. That would be the effect, at least, if the majority of people who buy videogames weren't already above the age threshold.
It just kills me because I know that the organizations which oppose such things consist mostly of Republicans. You would think that for all they love the market economy, they would stay the fuck out of an industry that continues to exhibit growth even under bad economic conditions. Or, at the very least, stick to the "less governmental interference" policy that was the backbone of the party. Just goes to show what happens when you let a little religion mix with your politics.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that this law is unconstitutional. It wouldn't violate the first amendment in that it isn't outright banning the availability of such content, merely restricting it to those considered in the age of majority. And the first amendment would be the one any lawyer would be going for because I honestly can't see the fourteenth coming into play in any relevant fashion despite what BudBoy311 suggests.
The thing is, I feel like organizations such as the PTC are going about this all wrong. If they want to affect the industry, go directly at the industry. The only thing corporations respond to is profit. Affect their profits and you can affect the way they do business. I think that the money put forth by the PTC (and other groups of this nature) in lobbying politicians could be much better spent informing consumers about the "dire threat" that videogames pose for the nation's youth and encouraging a boycott. That would be the effect, at least, if the majority of people who buy videogames weren't already above the age threshold.
It just kills me because I know that the organizations which oppose such things consist mostly of Republicans. You would think that for all they love the market economy, they would stay the fuck out of an industry that continues to exhibit growth even under bad economic conditions. Or, at the very least, stick to the "less governmental interference" policy that was the backbone of the party. Just goes to show what happens when you let a little religion mix with your politics.
@ MotoRobo - There are tons of age restrictive laws in our country when it comes to 'entertainment and media'...R rated movies are 17 and up, Porn is 18 and up, going to a strip club is 18/21 and up (based on the serving of alchohol at some places...There is a minimum drinking age...Those things aren't against any amendment, or a detriment to the public...
While I disagree with the methods that are used (or abused in some cases) by groups like the PTC and folks like Jack Thompson, I don't disagree with the principle that video games should fall under the same standards as movies do when it comes to kids. If anything it should be held stricter than the movies are, because unlike watching an act of violence we are allowed to virtually carry that act out.
I would never allow, or want my kids, or young family members to play GTA, or have the option of circumventing my rules as a parent by being able to go and buy whatever they feel is ok. While I personally enjoy that game (and it's only an example) in my opinion it isn't something fit for a younger gamer to play. I haven't seen any law taken seriously that would try to outright ban M rated games, and that I would say would be unconstitutional...But enforcing a policy that would limit access to younger gamers is something I'm on board with. There is a big difference between trying to keep something off the shelves and trying to keep what is openly described as adult material in the hands of adults.
While I disagree with the methods that are used (or abused in some cases) by groups like the PTC and folks like Jack Thompson, I don't disagree with the principle that video games should fall under the same standards as movies do when it comes to kids. If anything it should be held stricter than the movies are, because unlike watching an act of violence we are allowed to virtually carry that act out.
I would never allow, or want my kids, or young family members to play GTA, or have the option of circumventing my rules as a parent by being able to go and buy whatever they feel is ok. While I personally enjoy that game (and it's only an example) in my opinion it isn't something fit for a younger gamer to play. I haven't seen any law taken seriously that would try to outright ban M rated games, and that I would say would be unconstitutional...But enforcing a policy that would limit access to younger gamers is something I'm on board with. There is a big difference between trying to keep something off the shelves and trying to keep what is openly described as adult material in the hands of adults.
@ Conrad - I'm shocked that these groups would try to fight it out with legislation and waste what monies they have on such a pricey way to push their agenda. If these groups took a long hard look at the way they conduct themselves, I would like to think that sanity would prevail, and see that a more 'grass roots' approach would serve everyone involved better.
It would make more sense, at least to me, if these groups pooled their resources and got together with the Parent Teacher Association on a national level to put together a comprehensive package that would inform parents on games and their ratings. Nowadays it doesn't take much to put together a website...And in doing that, with the help of the PTA, could help give parents this tool through meeting and functions that are already held at schools nationwide.
Updating the site on a weekly basis, giving information on what is coming out, what it's rating is and why it is rated E/T/M would do wonders to give parents as much info as possible. You would figure just about every home has internet access in one form or another, so being able to give out a web address in PTA flyers, or in the flyers given through churches/temples/mosques each week could only help...
But that wouldn't put peoples names in the paper, or faces on tv...There are too many self serving folks. If there wasn't, something like I've described would already be in place.
It would make more sense, at least to me, if these groups pooled their resources and got together with the Parent Teacher Association on a national level to put together a comprehensive package that would inform parents on games and their ratings. Nowadays it doesn't take much to put together a website...And in doing that, with the help of the PTA, could help give parents this tool through meeting and functions that are already held at schools nationwide.
Updating the site on a weekly basis, giving information on what is coming out, what it's rating is and why it is rated E/T/M would do wonders to give parents as much info as possible. You would figure just about every home has internet access in one form or another, so being able to give out a web address in PTA flyers, or in the flyers given through churches/temples/mosques each week could only help...
But that wouldn't put peoples names in the paper, or faces on tv...There are too many self serving folks. If there wasn't, something like I've described would already be in place.
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