...And thus we will not be attempting a Watchmen radio play.
We will, however, be attempting to talk about the inherent conflict between gameplay and narrative as presented in this lecture by Jon Blow. Even if you don't end up listening to the Podtoid, you'd probably do well to listen to that lecture anyway.
We'll probably discuss some other stuff, but ideally that lecture will comprise the main meat of the discussion. We still need listener questions, though, so feel free to hit the jump and ask some and thus give yourself a chance to win a Dtoid swag bag.
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Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?
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Mr Manhattans Godlike Cock just dominates the screen, no matter what scene!!
...And Rev will look down, and whisper "No."
What is the biggest disappointment you've had from a game with a potentially interesting narrative? Did the game play elements not fit, or somewhere along the line did the narrative collapse under its own mass and become some kind of plot black whole that sucks so bad that not even light can escape?
Discuss.
I find it that series like Resident Evil or Street Fighter try to hard to have a story that ties the fall of shadaloo with the rise of S.I.N or the demise of the Umbrella corporation. This stories do not need a canon or continuity and they'd probably work better as stand alone games without an overarching story (like Final Fantasy)
Examples being, Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Killzone 2, Resistance 2, Halo 3 (though they were trying), Army of Two, Battlefield: Bad Company, Aaron Linde's Bonerquest: The Infection Spreads, Battlefield 2: Modern Combat, Call of Duty: World at War?
These games are selling themselves as the gaming equivalent of a Hollywood movie, the problem being that not every Hollywood movie completely lacks character development and good acting. Well..
Are you insinuating that Anthony has a mental disorder?
Aaron, how do you feel about more people entering your field? Are you afraid your position will be replaced by someone who develops Clitorisquest?
Also, I would say that Aaron Linde has yet to brain child his Watchmen
Castle Shikigami pastes story elements on top of its gameplay, based on what character or combo of characters you play through with. For the Harvest Moon games, parts of a story are handed out to you as you progress through the meandering simulation elements of any given game in the genre (including Rune Factory)
I feel like this Podtoid has a homework assignment :/
Maybe you thought the gameplay was great but the story and characters needed work. Or possibly you thought the idea for the game was great but you would like to see how it would be different in your favourite show/books universe.
Possibly you even thought the gameplay was exactly how you imagined the perfect game for your favourite film would be.
Don't let him do it guys.
Do you prefer a single narrative strung along through gameplay or a choose your own adventure style narrative (a la fallout 3) driven by your gameplay choices?
I mean old world 1, or Lava world...etc..etc..
It seems that the only real game that i can think of that remotely does this would be DMC with its mission system
Are we better off as gaming community without levels? Do we miss them? Or are we unable to tell a story without interruption? Game nowadays are walking the line between overblown production values(Heavenly Sword) or straight gameplay (Portal)
Would bioshock's story work well with level interruption?
would the tension of Dead space work?
IMO i think the level choice(design) heavily influences were a story would and can go...
Persona 4 is just about to come out in the UK after a bloody long time since the US and Japanese release and Atlus aren't the ones distributing it and as such we don't get anything special with the game.
Are there any special editions that you've wished you could have gotten hold of, but couldn't due to financial or location issues?
What's your opinion on changing minor details to a plot if you think it will improve on it? I didn't read the graphic novel, but I just saw the Watchmen movie and some of my friends told that the ending was slightly different from the novel, although with the same theme.
The whole point of a video game is to have something to interact with, so its necessary that the player must be doing something most of the time, but how do you advance the narative while the player plays? Is the solution to use artifical plot devices like the audio recordings in BioShock or the diaries and files in RE? or is the only way to tell a story to interweave plot progression points between gameplay sections?
Also what characters would you want to see added (or not added) in said update? Finish the work on T.Hawk and DeeJay and cement the game as "Street Fighter 2: Shiny 3D and Inky Attack Edition"? Or bring in Street Fighter 3 characters to tie in story elements and show some love to 3rd Strike fans.
(Dudley Vs. Balrog, make it happen!)
*picture not real and not my work
I was actually in the process of writing a cblog response to that Indie Nation post that pretty much talked about this same lecture of Blow's and seeing as the Podtoid will actually be about the lecture, I might as well throw this out here to see if I can generate any thoughts or discussion that might find its way into this cblog post if it does end up happening.
So I guess here's my question.
I would honestly like Rev. Anthony, someone whose intelligence and work on Destructoid I genuinely respect, to explain to me why he thinks that the words that come out of Blow's mouth are worth parroting and repeating ad nauseum in the way that he does. I could look past the constant "not respecting my time" remarks but I think you really jumped the shark when you, as part of your rant against the penis in "The Lost and the Damned" started going off on how Blow or Rod Humble would have found an intelligent way to use nudity in a game, preaching about the theoretical commentary on video game nudity that these two might have made, without considering that neither game designer appear to be interested in doing anything like that as opposed to making another indie game about some esoteric game about a personal event.
I guess what it is that I cannot stand the most about Blow's lectures is that he preaches about all these evils and bad things that game designers do and yet he simply does not any real solutions or ideas on how to fix them. I have tons of objections to Blow's ideas, but for now let me focus on narrative and gameplay.
I am inclined to agree that storytelling and gameplay are conflicted in the vast majority of games, such as "Bioshock," "Half-Life 2," and other games he cites. Yet I fail to see how we are going to get to a better sense of narrative/gameplay mixing until we get that supercomputer AI that can dynamically change and make up the story to better match our gameplay and choices.
Many other times Blow talks about this concept of a game whose gameplay and narrative are completely combined and integrated together. I would argue that the only examples I can think of that do that successfully are "Passage" and "The Marriage." Frankly, I cannot see how that type of combination of gameplay and narrative could work for even a simple story like the one for the original "Super Mario Bros." Hell, I am not sure Blow managed to accomplish the feat or even make a serious attempt at it in his own game "Braid."
There's a section where Blow says that if a story can't be done in a way that melds perfectly with the gameplay, the story shouldn't be done at all. I would argue that if every writer, sculpter, composer, filmmaker, etc only does the type of stories that are in their respective medium's comfort zone, which is what Blow seems to be suggesting, art in general would be knocked back a few centuries.
Again, I really hate to knock on Rev. Anthony because I do respect his work on Destructoid and really enjoyed the comments and observations that he makes, especially in the old Rev Rant on RetroforceGO! Hell, a large part of my willingness to write the music to "Bonerquest" has to do with my love of Podtoid, whose current form is pretty much all Rev. Anthony's work. I guess I just don't understand why someone like Rev. Anthony who appears to be intelligent just doesn't seem to see Jonathan Blow's rants for what they are: rants. He always makes sure to target incendiary comments on targets that he knows either won't respond (i.e. "Bioshock" and "Shadow of the Colossus" and/or are popular targets to make fun of in the gamer crowd (i.e. "World of Warcraft). I agree that his Blow's lectures are fun and interesting as a thought exercise into the future. Yet, I cannot get over the fact that his talks are essentially complaints without any intelligent solution: it's as worthless as politians complaining about lack of universal health care without being willing or prepared to discuss deeper aspects of the issue such as funding and implementation.
Sorry for the very long comment but, I just couldn't stand keep my e-mouth shut any longer as Rev. Anthony once again complains about a game "wasting his time." When I hear that term come from someone else's mouth, I know it usually is because the game either genuinely has problems or just simply doesn't hit the personal preferences of the player. It's just aggrevating hearing it from Rev. Anthony knowing that he is talking about some idealized standard of gaming that Jonathan Blow rants about, but is not close to happening, partially because of technological and human limitations, but probably moreso because no one, Blow included has any serious clue about how to get there.
I don't really have the space to fully respond to what you're saying here, or necessarily in the podcast without truncating your question to a degree you probably wouldn't be happy with, but for now let me just say this -- I don't agree with the stuff Jon Blow says in this lecture, and that's why I brought it up. I think he makes some devastatingly useful points that he also integrated into Braid, but I don't think his complaints about narrative vs gameplay are 100% life-ruining and all-encompassing in the way he seems to be suggesting. Since he makes his case so well, though, and since it runs so counter to what the Podtoid crew tends to really champion (hence the HL2/MGS drinking game), I thought it'd make for good discussion.
That said, we haven't recorded yet and I may have to play devil's advocate and try to defend Blow's views just for the sake of argument, but my main point is that I either don't agree, or really don't want to believe that what Blow says is as serious as he seems to think it is.
The "respecting my time" thing I definitely ripped off from him and started parroting, but a lot of that comes from this sudden glut of really good, really short games that keep showing me new stuff and don't feel like padding their length with filler. Going from those to really filler-heavy stuff like JRPGs just sort of cemented that desire that my time be "respected" as part of my gamer/critic/whatever worldview.
I would go for something like the Worm in Gears 2.