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Downloading now. I heard Jaffe touch on this in another recent interview and what he said was pretty insightful and interesting so a more fleshed out discussion will be awesome to hear.
Shoulda asked him incessantly why he's such a dick and bag on his games til he flipped out and was a total dick then pointed at him and go "see?" That's how other people do it.
Still listening through it now but I'm absolutely loving it, great to hear an intelligent discussion between two intelligent people something that sometimes feels all too rare in the video game community.
Many thanks Jim and David!
Many thanks Jim and David!
See this guy may rub some the wrong way, but he is intelligent and has great ideas. By the way, I love TM, thank you Mr Jaffe.
I'm still pretty dubious about taking anything David Jaffe says seriously, especially after his speech at DICE, which is strange considering how kind and intelligent he seems. Still, I shall prepare myself for some JimJaffecake.
"Twisted Metal is worth more than $60 if you like the multiplayer."
David Jaffe, I have never played a Twisted Metal game. And there are not enough 9/10 reviews out there to convince me to pay $60 to find out if I thought it was worth $60.
People took a chance on Portal for $10 or whatever because $10 is an acceptable risk. They bought Portal 2 for $60 because they then knew they were willing to pay that. If Portal came out for $60, Valve or no Valve, it would not have sold nearly as well. If Minecraft had come out for $60, no one would have bought it.
I remember buying Nier from GameStop and actually saying to the guy at the counter when he noticed it. "I've always wondered about this game. I wasn't $60 curious about it when it came out, but I'm $10 curious now."
David Jaffe, I have never played a Twisted Metal game. And there are not enough 9/10 reviews out there to convince me to pay $60 to find out if I thought it was worth $60.
People took a chance on Portal for $10 or whatever because $10 is an acceptable risk. They bought Portal 2 for $60 because they then knew they were willing to pay that. If Portal came out for $60, Valve or no Valve, it would not have sold nearly as well. If Minecraft had come out for $60, no one would have bought it.
I remember buying Nier from GameStop and actually saying to the guy at the counter when he noticed it. "I've always wondered about this game. I wasn't $60 curious about it when it came out, but I'm $10 curious now."
Also, Jaffe is talking out of his ass about booting up Skyrim. I popped that disc in my XBOX a few days after launch. It downloaded one patch and was good to go. Downloading subsequent patches is a bit of a pain, but I've been glad at what they've fixed. They're actually making the game better. Online passes don't make the game better, they just give you what you already paid for.
Fantastic episode, on both sides. Though I do mostly side with Jaffe, a lot of things he said resonated with me in the way that his stance on various subjects are the same as mine. I love putting myself in not just the shoes of the consumer but also on the side of the publisher/developers, and it really in my opinion broadens my view, but at the same time I hardly ever end up having a definitive answer to a problem, which I think is something Jaffe suffers from as well.
Great episode, best of luck to Twisted Metal.
Great episode, best of luck to Twisted Metal.
"I don't believe 90% of what comes out of Jaffe's mouth."
If you were a bit more logical and not operating off of past hate, you would find that Jaffe had a lot of good insight to share.
If you were a bit more logical and not operating off of past hate, you would find that Jaffe had a lot of good insight to share.
@ BomberJacket
How is Nier? I've heard a lot of mixed opinions, but the soundtrack seems amazing and Glyde is doing a $5 off promo this weekend.
How is Nier? I've heard a lot of mixed opinions, but the soundtrack seems amazing and Glyde is doing a $5 off promo this weekend.
I hope he can participate in further Podtoids. It's just refreshing to hear a seasoned developer who hasn't lost his balls and the perspective that their experience brings in matters that we as consumers aren't privy to normally. I wish him the best with Twisted Metal and whatever is on the horizon with his new company.
Absolute hilarity at when he talks about how he visits a Gamestop to pick up Twisted Metal since Sony hasn't sent him his copies and he notices on the TV "Trade in Twisted Metal for $30 credit!". I agree Jaffe, fuck sakes, the game JUST came out!
David Jaffe talks just like frequent SNL guest political comedian Nicholas Fehn.
Finish a damn thought man.
Finish a damn thought man.
I heard a lot of unfinished sentences and flip flopping from Jaffe. He rambled and walked both sides of every issue. Nothing incredibly insightful but I don't hate the guy.
@tim: IMO it has one the best scores and stories this gen. Just in a ps2ish shell. Beyond worth the price
I have to say, although Jim was clearly very courteous, Jaffe sounded a bit like he was on the back foot. I haven't listened to all of it though, so we'll see in the next half.
Kickass Podtoid. I was so glad to hear Sterling take a chunk out of Gamestop for once. It's important to distinguish between the ideology of used game sales and the money grubbing reality of used game sales practices.
I didn't get that one because it didn't showed up on my I-tune (sad face) life's a bitch sometimes my friends.
Excellent pod cast Jim, Thank you and Thanks to Jaffe for you both having a create conversation. Good points, great listen! Please make sure to get more willing people like Jaffe to talk about these things! Very interesting listen the whole way.
I don't know if this'll ever get read but I really want to add my two cents.
First up, great special podcast, Jim. I'd love to see more podcasts of this vein, seeing you debate videogaming issues with equally outspoken members (of either side) of the industry. Honestly I love that it was a debate and not just the two of you wanking each other off for an hour and a half.
I'd love to see a podcast debate with someone whose outspoken views ran polar opposite to yours rather then just more or less agreeing with them. Although I suspect that would devolve into a shit-slinging match. Could be equally entertaining.
If you had gone back and edited out David's stuttering and awkward pauses, I've no doubt that he would have proven to be a charismatic person. He raised a bunch of incredibly good points I haven't heard before (and you did a fantastic job of reiterating yours) but I did have to listen to the podcast twice in order to fully understand what he was trying to articulate.
Listening to the podcast twice really did bring my attention to a bunch of flaws in both your arguments, too - namely that David misunderstood and misconstrued a bunch of fucking things that you said (he really does need to brush up on his communication skills) but more that your apparent lack of understanding of what actually goes on behind a publisher's doors really detracted from your credibility.
I know that, as someone incredibly eager to get into the games industry one day (hopefully soon, but its pretty fucking insular and my skills aren't quite up to scratch) I've been personally taken aback every time you've assumed something about a publisher or a developer - whether you're calling the developers of Neverdead "lazy" for their poorly thought out gameplay choices or EA "greedy" for Origin and their Season Passes, and it goes against EVERYTHING I know about the industry - they really do put their all into it, most of the people in the industry wouldn't be there if they didn't, and I do feel somewhat emphatic for them that the consumers - the people who only see the end-product, like you Jim, are so damn affected by their decisions that they're assuming that only a certain attitude could have caused them.
But perhaps the biggest issue that pervaded the entire debate was the lack of any hard evidence. I've spent the last hour googling the manufacture costs of video games and have not found a single hard link to the actual figures of videogame manufacturing deals, so I really think there may be more parties involved then the developer, publisher and retail. Are publishers actually raking in the relative pile of cash they get per disk? Might be something worth taking into account.
Although its fairly obvious that the developer gets screwed either way. Notch distributes his game online and is a multimillionaire. David Jaffe is paying off a mortgage. I'm so incredibly in favour of digital distribution, and I hope you keep voicing your preference for that path.
If anyone has read this far, they deserve a medal. Once again, GREAT podcast, Jim (much better then the incredibly entertaining but undeniable litany of bullshit in the usual podcasts), I've been a follower of it and you for the past year and I hope to follow it for years yet (you'll probably be dead by then)! Peace out and good luck!
First up, great special podcast, Jim. I'd love to see more podcasts of this vein, seeing you debate videogaming issues with equally outspoken members (of either side) of the industry. Honestly I love that it was a debate and not just the two of you wanking each other off for an hour and a half.
I'd love to see a podcast debate with someone whose outspoken views ran polar opposite to yours rather then just more or less agreeing with them. Although I suspect that would devolve into a shit-slinging match. Could be equally entertaining.
If you had gone back and edited out David's stuttering and awkward pauses, I've no doubt that he would have proven to be a charismatic person. He raised a bunch of incredibly good points I haven't heard before (and you did a fantastic job of reiterating yours) but I did have to listen to the podcast twice in order to fully understand what he was trying to articulate.
Listening to the podcast twice really did bring my attention to a bunch of flaws in both your arguments, too - namely that David misunderstood and misconstrued a bunch of fucking things that you said (he really does need to brush up on his communication skills) but more that your apparent lack of understanding of what actually goes on behind a publisher's doors really detracted from your credibility.
I know that, as someone incredibly eager to get into the games industry one day (hopefully soon, but its pretty fucking insular and my skills aren't quite up to scratch) I've been personally taken aback every time you've assumed something about a publisher or a developer - whether you're calling the developers of Neverdead "lazy" for their poorly thought out gameplay choices or EA "greedy" for Origin and their Season Passes, and it goes against EVERYTHING I know about the industry - they really do put their all into it, most of the people in the industry wouldn't be there if they didn't, and I do feel somewhat emphatic for them that the consumers - the people who only see the end-product, like you Jim, are so damn affected by their decisions that they're assuming that only a certain attitude could have caused them.
But perhaps the biggest issue that pervaded the entire debate was the lack of any hard evidence. I've spent the last hour googling the manufacture costs of video games and have not found a single hard link to the actual figures of videogame manufacturing deals, so I really think there may be more parties involved then the developer, publisher and retail. Are publishers actually raking in the relative pile of cash they get per disk? Might be something worth taking into account.
Although its fairly obvious that the developer gets screwed either way. Notch distributes his game online and is a multimillionaire. David Jaffe is paying off a mortgage. I'm so incredibly in favour of digital distribution, and I hope you keep voicing your preference for that path.
If anyone has read this far, they deserve a medal. Once again, GREAT podcast, Jim (much better then the incredibly entertaining but undeniable litany of bullshit in the usual podcasts), I've been a follower of it and you for the past year and I hope to follow it for years yet (you'll probably be dead by then)! Peace out and good luck!
It's becoming increasingly clear that retailers have a big part to play in how this situation pans out. I totally agree with Jaffe's 'triangle' statement; consumer, retailer, publisher/developer. Retailers need to come to some sort of agreement with publishers/developers to funnel back some of the money that is made off of used games into the industry. I've read about some guy who is trying to set up his own used game model that does just this and I hope that it proves successful. However, publishers/developers also have a responsibility to not put absolute shit on shelves and ask us to pay £40/$60.
Good stuff. Jaffe offered some good insight into the developer side.
Oh and those stutters and possible unfinished sentences...just means he's human like the rest of us.
Oh and those stutters and possible unfinished sentences...just means he's human like the rest of us.
@Lintire
That was a good post. I've always wished we could get some actual journalism involved in videogame media, rather than just angry bloggers and shills (for the most part). I would love to read a real, in-depth piece on this from someone with contacts in the industry, who did all the research and laid out the fact BEFORE they started ranting. Generally, we get a lot of editorials where the writer sounds only marginally more informed than the average reader.
That was a good post. I've always wished we could get some actual journalism involved in videogame media, rather than just angry bloggers and shills (for the most part). I would love to read a real, in-depth piece on this from someone with contacts in the industry, who did all the research and laid out the fact BEFORE they started ranting. Generally, we get a lot of editorials where the writer sounds only marginally more informed than the average reader.
@Fenrir151: Why should they? Why should the games industry get special privileges that no other industry gets? This is the only industry where customers are retarded enough to say "yes, the original creator should get a share of every transaction that a product makes in it's existence" because the industry whines hard enough about it. The games industry needs to nut the fuck up or it can just die in a fire in it's current iteration. I welcome the newer, consumer driven games industry.
If, as David Jaffe pointed out, that Twisted Metal wasn't worth $60 for the single player experience on it's own but it was worth more than $60 if you liked the multiplayer and played it for X amount of hours. Then why not release the single player game for $20-$40 and then have a X amount of hours trial of the multiplayer? That way you could charge that extra $20-$40 for the multiplayer portion, because if people enjoyed the multiplayer they would buy it. It's a win-win situation.
I myself love playing the Uncharted games, if this kind of system would have been implemented I would have just played the single player campaign and left it at and would have happily played $40 for that and felt like I had gotten my moneys worth out of it. On the other hand I have friends that would have happily payed the extra $20 for the multiplayer and again would have felt they had also gotten their moneys worth out of it.
I myself love playing the Uncharted games, if this kind of system would have been implemented I would have just played the single player campaign and left it at and would have happily played $40 for that and felt like I had gotten my moneys worth out of it. On the other hand I have friends that would have happily payed the extra $20 for the multiplayer and again would have felt they had also gotten their moneys worth out of it.
Didn't listen to the podtoid, they're like 2.5 hrs right? That's waaaaaay too much time.
I may have been willing to pay $60 for the new TM though. Right up until I heard an online pass was being implemented. I'll offline and pass on this, thanks.
I may have been willing to pay $60 for the new TM though. Right up until I heard an online pass was being implemented. I'll offline and pass on this, thanks.
One of the most reasoned and close-to-accurate things I've seen or heard on this site. Enough to make me create an account, even.
I think I even heard Jim begin to see things in a different light, which would be a welcome change.
Jaffe is generally right, though I'm surprised he doesn't appear to know some of the details of the games business and how it works. Perhaps he was being coy, but that doesn't seem his style.
@Usedtabe - This isn't just gaming -- it's software in general. Also applies to movies, music, and sites like Destructoid. Basically, anything that can be transmitted digitally, because additional uses of the product or service don't degrade the value or quality based on number of additional uses or over time. Physical goods (books, cars, clothes, etc.) inherently lose value due to wear and tear. So, businesses which create and sell these forms of media want to be paid for each person who uses their product or service. If that seems bizarre/greedy/incomprehensible, imagine if your personal source of income -- your ability to support yourself and your family -- could be so freely stolen (piracy) or harvested repeatedly for profits of which you won't see a dime (used games). If you were in that situation, what would you do? (What wouldn't you do?) Roll over and take it? Change your line of work? Go out of business? Fight back?
Anyway, a healthy conversation. Let's keep it going.
I think I even heard Jim begin to see things in a different light, which would be a welcome change.
Jaffe is generally right, though I'm surprised he doesn't appear to know some of the details of the games business and how it works. Perhaps he was being coy, but that doesn't seem his style.
@Usedtabe - This isn't just gaming -- it's software in general. Also applies to movies, music, and sites like Destructoid. Basically, anything that can be transmitted digitally, because additional uses of the product or service don't degrade the value or quality based on number of additional uses or over time. Physical goods (books, cars, clothes, etc.) inherently lose value due to wear and tear. So, businesses which create and sell these forms of media want to be paid for each person who uses their product or service. If that seems bizarre/greedy/incomprehensible, imagine if your personal source of income -- your ability to support yourself and your family -- could be so freely stolen (piracy) or harvested repeatedly for profits of which you won't see a dime (used games). If you were in that situation, what would you do? (What wouldn't you do?) Roll over and take it? Change your line of work? Go out of business? Fight back?
Anyway, a healthy conversation. Let's keep it going.
I've never cared for David Jaffe. I've never seen a guy, who works for a given company, (in this case Sony) be quite as blindingly loyal to said company as he is. PSN goes down? "Not Sony's fault" they didn't tell consumers their personal info had been compromised for a full week, says David Jaffe. PS Vita memory card prices? "Perfectly reasonable" says David Jaffe.
Does this man tithe to the CHURCH of Sony?
Does this man tithe to the CHURCH of Sony?
@OneWhoKnows: That argument falls apart right at the physical goods section because most games are still physical media, which go through wear and tear. Same with movies and to a (much)lesser extent music.
All I can say is that I thought Jaffe, while doing a bit of run-on thought during the podcast (which is fine by me, I have no doubt that he was anything but honest about how he feels about this stuff and that can lead to just that if it isn't rehearsed), made very many good points. As a former GameStop manager (2004-2006) I can say that it isn't just the 'past few years' that they've been pushing used sales. I was given many directives that said if I had a game used that I offer that game used, no matter what condition the game might be in and I needed to try and sell it (to a point).
I don't want this to run on but I just wanted to say that I found Jaffe coming out of this discussion having a bit more ground to stand on than Jim did (sorry Jim, I love you but I think that David took the wind out of your sails a bit).
Between this and the Mangastream shutdown this month my ideas of what is and isn't wrong with my interests are getting restructured a bit. Thanks for taking the time to make this you guys.
I don't want this to run on but I just wanted to say that I found Jaffe coming out of this discussion having a bit more ground to stand on than Jim did (sorry Jim, I love you but I think that David took the wind out of your sails a bit).
Between this and the Mangastream shutdown this month my ideas of what is and isn't wrong with my interests are getting restructured a bit. Thanks for taking the time to make this you guys.
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