On a special bonus episode of Podtoid, Eat Sleep Play co-founder and Twisted Metal co-director David Jaffe chats with Jim Sterling about used games, online passes, and the strained relationship between publishers and consumers. Are gamers being treated like thieves? Is GameStop a villain? Will all this be rendered moot when digital distribution takes hold?
It's a fascinating discussion that provides a lot to think about for all concerned. If you care about videogame consumer issues, this is a podcast you'd do well to listen to!
Thanks to David Jaffe for spending time chatting about the issue, and making for a very insightful, interesting podcast.
As ever, you can subscribe to us on iTunes and RSS, buy our Android app, or download directly!
Jim Sterling serves as reviews editor for Destructoid.com, head of the Podtoid podcast, and produces a number of news stories, original features, one-of-a-kind videos. With his passionate argumentative style, controversial opinions, harsh delivery, and dedication to brutal honesty Sterling is a name that you can't help but recognize.
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PS2, iPod Touch, Silent Hill 2, Metal Gear Solid, Dynasty Warriors 3
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Contest:
4:45 PM on 02.17.2012 | 
Many thanks Jim and David!
By the way, Jaffe sort of sounds like David Sarif.
David Jaffe, I have never played a Twisted Metal game. And there are not enough 9/10 reviews out there to convince me to pay $60 to find out if I thought it was worth $60.
People took a chance on Portal for $10 or whatever because $10 is an acceptable risk. They bought Portal 2 for $60 because they then knew they were willing to pay that. If Portal came out for $60, Valve or no Valve, it would not have sold nearly as well. If Minecraft had come out for $60, no one would have bought it.
I remember buying Nier from GameStop and actually saying to the guy at the counter when he noticed it. "I've always wondered about this game. I wasn't $60 curious about it when it came out, but I'm $10 curious now."
Great episode, best of luck to Twisted Metal.
If you were a bit more logical and not operating off of past hate, you would find that Jaffe had a lot of good insight to share.
Look at that butthurt flow
How is Nier? I've heard a lot of mixed opinions, but the soundtrack seems amazing and Glyde is doing a $5 off promo this weekend.
Finish a damn thought man.
First up, great special podcast, Jim. I'd love to see more podcasts of this vein, seeing you debate videogaming issues with equally outspoken members (of either side) of the industry. Honestly I love that it was a debate and not just the two of you wanking each other off for an hour and a half.
I'd love to see a podcast debate with someone whose outspoken views ran polar opposite to yours rather then just more or less agreeing with them. Although I suspect that would devolve into a shit-slinging match. Could be equally entertaining.
If you had gone back and edited out David's stuttering and awkward pauses, I've no doubt that he would have proven to be a charismatic person. He raised a bunch of incredibly good points I haven't heard before (and you did a fantastic job of reiterating yours) but I did have to listen to the podcast twice in order to fully understand what he was trying to articulate.
Listening to the podcast twice really did bring my attention to a bunch of flaws in both your arguments, too - namely that David misunderstood and misconstrued a bunch of fucking things that you said (he really does need to brush up on his communication skills) but more that your apparent lack of understanding of what actually goes on behind a publisher's doors really detracted from your credibility.
I know that, as someone incredibly eager to get into the games industry one day (hopefully soon, but its pretty fucking insular and my skills aren't quite up to scratch) I've been personally taken aback every time you've assumed something about a publisher or a developer - whether you're calling the developers of Neverdead "lazy" for their poorly thought out gameplay choices or EA "greedy" for Origin and their Season Passes, and it goes against EVERYTHING I know about the industry - they really do put their all into it, most of the people in the industry wouldn't be there if they didn't, and I do feel somewhat emphatic for them that the consumers - the people who only see the end-product, like you Jim, are so damn affected by their decisions that they're assuming that only a certain attitude could have caused them.
But perhaps the biggest issue that pervaded the entire debate was the lack of any hard evidence. I've spent the last hour googling the manufacture costs of video games and have not found a single hard link to the actual figures of videogame manufacturing deals, so I really think there may be more parties involved then the developer, publisher and retail. Are publishers actually raking in the relative pile of cash they get per disk? Might be something worth taking into account.
Although its fairly obvious that the developer gets screwed either way. Notch distributes his game online and is a multimillionaire. David Jaffe is paying off a mortgage. I'm so incredibly in favour of digital distribution, and I hope you keep voicing your preference for that path.
If anyone has read this far, they deserve a medal. Once again, GREAT podcast, Jim (much better then the incredibly entertaining but undeniable litany of bullshit in the usual podcasts), I've been a follower of it and you for the past year and I hope to follow it for years yet (you'll probably be dead by then)! Peace out and good luck!
Oh and those stutters and possible unfinished sentences...just means he's human like the rest of us.
That was a good post. I've always wished we could get some actual journalism involved in videogame media, rather than just angry bloggers and shills (for the most part). I would love to read a real, in-depth piece on this from someone with contacts in the industry, who did all the research and laid out the fact BEFORE they started ranting. Generally, we get a lot of editorials where the writer sounds only marginally more informed than the average reader.
I myself love playing the Uncharted games, if this kind of system would have been implemented I would have just played the single player campaign and left it at and would have happily played $40 for that and felt like I had gotten my moneys worth out of it. On the other hand I have friends that would have happily payed the extra $20 for the multiplayer and again would have felt they had also gotten their moneys worth out of it.
I may have been willing to pay $60 for the new TM though. Right up until I heard an online pass was being implemented. I'll offline and pass on this, thanks.
I think I even heard Jim begin to see things in a different light, which would be a welcome change.
Jaffe is generally right, though I'm surprised he doesn't appear to know some of the details of the games business and how it works. Perhaps he was being coy, but that doesn't seem his style.
@Usedtabe - This isn't just gaming -- it's software in general. Also applies to movies, music, and sites like Destructoid. Basically, anything that can be transmitted digitally, because additional uses of the product or service don't degrade the value or quality based on number of additional uses or over time. Physical goods (books, cars, clothes, etc.) inherently lose value due to wear and tear. So, businesses which create and sell these forms of media want to be paid for each person who uses their product or service. If that seems bizarre/greedy/incomprehensible, imagine if your personal source of income -- your ability to support yourself and your family -- could be so freely stolen (piracy) or harvested repeatedly for profits of which you won't see a dime (used games). If you were in that situation, what would you do? (What wouldn't you do?) Roll over and take it? Change your line of work? Go out of business? Fight back?
Anyway, a healthy conversation. Let's keep it going.
Does this man tithe to the CHURCH of Sony?
I don't want this to run on but I just wanted to say that I found Jaffe coming out of this discussion having a bit more ground to stand on than Jim did (sorry Jim, I love you but I think that David took the wind out of your sails a bit).
Between this and the Mangastream shutdown this month my ideas of what is and isn't wrong with my interests are getting restructured a bit. Thanks for taking the time to make this you guys.