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Being the huge indie fan I am, it was only a matter of time until we devoted an entire Podtoid to indie games. I'm still not sure if we're gonna do the show on indie games in general, or just in ar-tee-steeck ones, but we'll definitely be using them as a starting point.

Tonight at 8 pm PST, we'll be talking about Passage, Gravitation, The Marriage, Stars Over Half Moon Bay and probably some others. If you want a preview of how the show will likely go, I'll be like "art games are so cool" and Aaron will be like "yeah kinda" and Jim will be like "you're both complete f*cking idiots" and Tiff will be like "hey stop interrupting me."

So, pretty much like every other show we've done, except with more arguing.

We still need reader questions, though, so go ahead and throw 'em out. Try to avoid "are indie games: showing us new things/totally pretentious/the future of videogames" and so on, since we'll probably be discussing that sorta stuff anyway. Other than that, though, go nuts.

As always, best question gets $25. Hit the comments. 








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37 comments | showing # 1 to 37
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Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:27
Jim Sterling
I'm begging you. Don't make me do this.
Darren Nakamura's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:32
Darren Nakamura
I don't really know what made me think of this, but how cool would virtual reality be if it were made today? I mean, back when VR stuff was first coming out, they were these huge headsets, with awful graphics having four or five polygons per model, no AI, and usually no more of an objective than shooting your friend who is having as little fun with the thing as you are.

I know it failed in the past, but with the technology we have now, could it be done, or more importantly, could it be done well?
Brian Szabelski's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:32
Brian Szabelski
What are you hoping to see with the future of indie art games? Anything in specific or in the genre as a whole?
Maurice Tan's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:39
Maurice Tan
Oh god! How about this: people have studied, criticized and ripped apart many of what we call "classic movies". Although they are different in genre, direction and just style, they often all have similar elements that they share that makes them so much better than the rest. Looking at videogames, we have classic games like Super Mario Bros, Deus Ex and Resident Evil 4 which are all really different type of games.

If we can call Bergman, Kurosawa, Lean and Lynch great artists of cinema, what would be the elements we would look for to describe a game as art? What is it that truly transcend a game beyond its entertainment value and makes us seek answers that are not in the game (like we would after watching Ikiru or any Bergman movie)?
Neonie's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:43
Neonie
Do you think taking a games art direction toward a drawn (thick black outline and colorful, cartoony) or other uncommon artistic directions (Think Wind Walker) would be better or worse then the ultra real direction most games seem to lean on. I would personally like to see a more artistic approach to games that aren't for grade school kids.
naia-the-gamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:48
naia-the-gamer
I'm curious if you think these "Games as Art" could help the general public's perception of video games as being a legitimate medium. The media is so focused on games being violent that perhaps games that provoke other ideas could be good.

On the other hand, I wonder if most gamers themselves even know of the existence of these games, period.

What do you guys think?
Wedge's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:49
Wedge
What, no talk about the incredible artistic impact of indie hit Zombie Smashers X2 Punx & Skins?

Really though, the "art games" are cute, but I prefer the ones that are actually interesting games as well (i.e. Braid).
wardrox's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:50
wardrox
Jim:

Use the big words I told you.
UglyDuck's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:52
UglyDuck
What is your favourite music in video games? You rarely hear people talk about sound in video games, but it's absolutely fundamental in creating atmosphere and defining a title. I could talk about this for hours, but I'm not on the podcast, so I think you should talk about it.

Failing that, retarded "would you prefer" question: functionality, aesthetics or efficiency in video games?

Also, my cat Sophie, age 12, has been watching Reaper recently and noticed that Ray Wise plays the devil, who also played the president in RA2 (he's dreamy). I noticed this weeks ago, naturally, but she insists on being mentioned in the podcast... So anyway, any video game actors or voice actors stand out for you as being awesome? Anyone you've seen in a TV show that you recognise from a game, or vise-versa?
Jaren Face's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:54
Jaren Face
Taking a look at the other side of the coin for art games, When do you think a new Mario Paint will be announced? And you would think games like that would find a nice home on the Wii/DS... but they currently don't. Has the gaming market shifted in such a way where titles like this simply cannot sell?

Ps- I've really been digging the intro music used for the show. It's nice to hear acts like Girl Talk or RJD2 welcoming listeners. Really adds to the overall podtoid experience. *thumbs up*
aborto thefetus's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 18:56
aborto thefetus
Artistic games like Okami, Beyond Good and Evil, and Psychonauts are notorious for not selling well despite having rave reviews. That being said, which Artistic game over any other deserved more attention than it got?

And in addition, do you think Artistic games are doomed to be a niche market?
WilloughbyJackson's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:01
WilloughbyJackson
What is your opinion of Flash indy game development and your favorite Flash based web game?
MatCD's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:02
MatCD
If indie developers are successful enough do you think that will get big name developers to get up off their asses and start putting bigger budgets on new ideas?

And if their new ideas are successful could they do without turning it into a soulless cashwhore franchise? (IE, Guitar Hero)


also Ikaruga is art
ferak's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:10
ferak
Does anyone think we'll eventually get to a point with independent gaming where an industry giant like EA takes interest and buys up some of these independent studios? How would you feel about the potential of some of your favorite independent games getting remakes or sequels with an EA level budget and resources?
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:18
Tubatic
I guess a permutation of ferak's questions, coincidentally:

Do you think a game like Braid would:
1) still be impressive if it was being produced and "marketed" by an EA or Namco, as opposed to how Mr. Blow is bringing the game to the world?
2) even be of interest if the same mechanics were being applied to a full release, $60 game?
superhobo's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:35
superhobo
Do you think that the concept of "indie" developers in completely necessary for originality in gaming. After all, Beyond Good and Evil was an Ubisoft game. EA claims that many of the smaller companies they are buying will be able to operate independently and develop original ideas and IP's, so what is the advantage of being an independent developer today?
Phoenix Gamma's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 19:36
Phoenix Gamma
As games get older, we're seeing stories being told in a variety of ways. Braid has a story where it's all spread out for you (literally) but it's completely optional for the player to experience. Portal has a story that's there, but you need to sorta dig at it to get the whole experience, and a lot of it is left to your imagination. Then you've got most commercial games where the story is more conventional, or should I say conventional in how it's conveyed to the player.

Do you think we'll see rise to any one method of storytelling, or will the conventional method remain the tried and true formula?

My other question: Do you think there's a point where a game can become a little too abstract or deviate from the norm so much that it isn't a game? I sat down recently with some absurd flash game, which defiantly had "levels" but I wasn't really given a goal, the graphics didn't resemble anything, and I wasn't sure what the hell was going on. Do you think there are a set of guidelines that games need to follow?
AgentMOO's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:05
AgentMOO
Short games: What's your take on them? I'm talking about Bioshock, Portal, and Drake: Uncharted. As a time deprived gamer, I loved playing all the way through these without dealing with goddamn filler content.

Want to know one game I didn't play through because of filler? No More Heroes - WHAT THE FUCK? I have to mow goddamn lawns and collect coconuts to buy the next level? Help me reverend! Am I right? The story parts are great but shit, I have better things to do than drive around in that broken ass overworld and do menial chores.
Chewpathingy's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:05
Chewpathingy
Ok so this isnt a question necessarily about art games but about cowboys. Namely Cowboy RPG how come we have never seen a really good cowboy RPG. I want an RPG without magic for once. Without telekinesis or some other form of manipulating the world. I want Oregon Trail Next gen version. Oh this answer is directed towards Jim since he is britesssh and probably doesnt know and or care about cowboys that much. (Not that i do either but Gun, Call of Jaurez and Red Dead Revolver are still pretty fun)
milk195's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:30
milk195
Because I have just begun getting into the "indie" genre, I haven't found a concrete answer to this question:

Recently I fianlly played Cave Story and it (like almost everyone) BLEW my mind. I am already playing through it again and can't get over how good it is. My question is: Will or will there NOT be a Cave Story 2? If so, when? Also I have started looking at the "mods" for Cave Story but everyone says theirs is cool but usually is not or bug ridden. Do you know any that are actually good or well recieved by fans? Thanks.
Qraze's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:37
Qraze
thanks for the shout out last week. believe me it made my week. thanks. and if you could make an original type game, what would it revolve around? i have an idea of an anti-game which plays on the clichés of video games, i.e. in a level that has objectives that must not do the objectives or a double jump to jump once and vice versa. i know it won't ever see the light but what if? that extra life actually means one less life,the level ends when you kill all hostages, you have to suicide die. and run out of ammo. interesting. each level would/could be entirely unique. what if?
Qraze's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:38
Qraze
thanks for the shout out last week. believe me it made my week. thanks. and if you could make an original type game, what would it revolve around? i have an idea of an anti-game which plays on the clichés of video games, i.e. in a level that has objectives that must not do the objectives or a double jump to jump once and vice versa. i know it won't ever see the light but what if? that extra life actually means one less life,the level ends when you kill all hostages, you have to suicide die. and run out of ammo. interesting. each level would/could be entirely unique. what if?#1_in_the_hood_G!!
Kif 's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:47
Kif
Even if games are perceived in the future as a legitimate art form by some group of unseen hipster pseudo intellectuals, will it even affect the games industry? I imagine the most mainstream games won't even take notice, nor will casual gamers. I doubt I'd even care that much. It just sounds like another excuse for gamers to circlewank about one of their favourite hobbies.
Spitfire's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 20:54
Spitfire
There are sooooo many new ideas and creative reimaging of current ideas making their way into games like Braid's time/dimension manipulation, Knytt's exploration, Portal's (Nebacular Drop) space manipulation, hell even Kumoon blending 3rd person shooters and puzzle games. Are there any ideas that you are surprised no one has come up with or tried yet?

Which console do you think will be easier for indie game-makers to showcase their material, Nintendo's WiiWare, Microsoft's XNA and XBLA, Sony's PSN, or will the PC still be the main stage?
Morrius's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 21:08
Morrius
I'll ask the same question I asked Jim for podcastle, with a few modifications:

Do you expect/want to see a complete switch to digital download in the future? Every machine with a hard drive, (360, PS3, PC) is halfway there already. Personally I already use Steam whenever possible, as I'm the fucking king of losing game boxes and manuals. I'd love this ability for the 360, being able to download whole 360 games over XBL.

I think Steam is the best thing to happen to PC gaming in a very long time, how would you feel about a console equivalent?
BlackSunEmpire's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 21:15
BlackSunEmpire
Ok, I think the time has come to make this podcast even more enjoyable, now I know it's probably been suggested before, but how about a Podtoid drinking game??

For Rev, a drink anytime he mentions bioshock, or halflife (I was thinking indie too, but given the nature of this weeks podcast, it might get a bit messy, we can add that rule next week).
For Aaron, a drink anytime he makes a jizz or masturbation reference.
For Tiff, a drink everytime she gets interrupted, or finally gets asked to have first go at a question, and can't come up with anything.
And for Jim, one drink for cunts, and a drink everytime he breaks up and you can't hear what the hell he's trying to say.

For safety's sake, it may be wise to stick away from the spirits, and to listen to the podcast in 2 chunks.

And in the guise of asking a question, do the cast have any drinking game rules they want to add??
Aetsen's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 21:15
Aetsen
Does Jim hate art as much as he hates innovation?
The Incredible Edible Egg's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 21:47
The Incredible Edible Egg
I personally love cel shading and believe that it makes games more colorful and vibrant (loved JSRF and Cel Damage), but I know theres a strong base of gamers that tend to shun these games just because of the cartoonish feel of it. Whats your take on cel shading?

Also, when I was in high school, some guy did a powerpoint on games and mentioned wind waker, calling it "Wind Walker" and said that cel shading was dumb. I of course corrected him, because thats bullshit and he is an idiot.
A Humble Mr Perfect's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 22:05
A Humble Mr Perfect
@Jim:

Which indie games make the best "bridge" games?
Jetsetlemming's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 23:28
Jetsetlemming
Is Mount and Blade's $25 price tag for the full version worth it?
Is The Dishwasher: Undead Samurai going to be good enough to be worthy of causing SCZ2's development to be suspended? Is that even fucking possible?
Speaking of SCZ, why hasn't the mindblowingly excellent gameplay mechanics and functionality of the world's absolute best zombie game been copies or borrowed into mainstream gaming? Is it just that they're too busy making remakes to play a 2d indie computer game, or is it a pride issue, or what? I want to see a full budget blockbuster zombie epic that wins on the same level as SCZ, and there's nothing remotely close in the foreseeable future that doesn't come from James Silva himself.
Will you play my Source mod when it comes out? I promise it'll be good.
Brilliam's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 23:34
Brilliam
How much of what makes indie games great is appealing to the players' sense of nostalgia? I look at gravitation or passage and think of Atari 2600; Cave Story reminds me of NES/SNES; Barkley Gaiden looks like any 16-bit RPG; even Synaesthete carries a feeling that hearkens back to the days of Bemani machines and PS1s. Is this sense of nostalgia intrinsic to our emotional reactions to these games? I mean, yeah, an indie dev can't make a game that looks like Assassin's Creed, but it seems that the aesthetic aimed for is generally one that's fuzzy and warm and nostalgic. Is the "indie" genre really just a thin veil for "the retro-nostalgia" genre?
niacin's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/19/2008 23:52
niacin
Do you have fond memories of the time when games could be created by just one person?
Since they have complete control they could have the game exactly as they wanted it, time and resources permitting. Now though you have teams of 100 plus and I really wonder how much the lead designer really does. Everyone knows the name Peter Molyneux but how much of what he does is marketing and how much is actully making the game?

I know that with the size of todays games the one man team is long gone but correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't aquaria made with only 2 people.
hpv's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/20/2008 00:22
hpv
When's the Jim Sterling says "Meaty Cunt" episode coming up? We've been waiting forever!
ScottyG's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/20/2008 06:47
ScottyG
8pm PST? Isn't that 4am for Jim? Yikes! :S
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/20/2008 08:11
Jim Sterling
Yeah it is. And you can really hear 4am taking effect this ep.
Holyetheline's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/20/2008 09:22
Holyetheline
Indie fags rejoice!
Jetsetlemming's Avatar - Comment posted on 03/20/2008 11:02
Jetsetlemming
Will there be another Jelly Car related rant? Boy, I hope so!
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