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This is not the kind of friction I heartily enjoy on my Podtoid.
It sounds like the way Jim and Conrad think of the term "art game" is, as Jim said, like "shooter", but maybe a better example would be something like "gritty realistic". It's like the flavor of the game, not necessarily the way it's played or even the genre. More like a different mindset that the player is intended to go into the game with.
Also, to Jonathan's argument that "all games should be evaluated based on the same standard": I agree up to a point, but... I enjoy playing Samurai vs Zombies for a bit every once in a while. It's "fun", but it's not in the same realm as something like Skyrim, Limbo, Tetris, and... Conrad's realization that he might be wrong about everything and Holmes might be right about everything is exactly what I'm feeling right now. Shit. Dammit, Holmes. You're too convincing.
It sounds like the way Jim and Conrad think of the term "art game" is, as Jim said, like "shooter", but maybe a better example would be something like "gritty realistic". It's like the flavor of the game, not necessarily the way it's played or even the genre. More like a different mindset that the player is intended to go into the game with.
Also, to Jonathan's argument that "all games should be evaluated based on the same standard": I agree up to a point, but... I enjoy playing Samurai vs Zombies for a bit every once in a while. It's "fun", but it's not in the same realm as something like Skyrim, Limbo, Tetris, and... Conrad's realization that he might be wrong about everything and Holmes might be right about everything is exactly what I'm feeling right now. Shit. Dammit, Holmes. You're too convincing.
@ PiggyGamer- Thanks, I think? Yeah, and I was not going to bring up the topic. Too much friction is right!
And after much badgering from variety of directions, I'm yet to hear anything tho make me think that "art game" is the best term to use for whatever types of games it's suppose to describe. There are shooters where you shoot. There are horror games about characters who experience horror. There are art games about... art? Maybe Photoshop is an "art game" then?
It's like if we called some squares "squares" and we called other squares "rectangular squares". The rectangular part is redudant. It doesn't describe anything you don't already know.
All videogames are art. All squares are rectangles.
Of course, videogames are a little more complicated than simple geometric forms. They all take the shape of art, but they can contain a lot more than that, such as pornography, eductional elements, and vessles for competition.
Still, I see nothing good about continuing with the term "art game". It's really silly.
And after much badgering from variety of directions, I'm yet to hear anything tho make me think that "art game" is the best term to use for whatever types of games it's suppose to describe. There are shooters where you shoot. There are horror games about characters who experience horror. There are art games about... art? Maybe Photoshop is an "art game" then?
It's like if we called some squares "squares" and we called other squares "rectangular squares". The rectangular part is redudant. It doesn't describe anything you don't already know.
All videogames are art. All squares are rectangles.
Of course, videogames are a little more complicated than simple geometric forms. They all take the shape of art, but they can contain a lot more than that, such as pornography, eductional elements, and vessles for competition.
Still, I see nothing good about continuing with the term "art game". It's really silly.
Holmes is great, but god damn why does he have to be so obtuse about "art games"? It was really annoying that he wouldn't accept that the term means something more than it's name implies. And no, "more" does not mean it's not fun.
I've been playing NMH2 recently and I have to admit I'm really not liking the retro style side jobs. They're really annoying. I actually enjoyed the jobs in the first game more.
I've been playing NMH2 recently and I have to admit I'm really not liking the retro style side jobs. They're really annoying. I actually enjoyed the jobs in the first game more.
Wow for the first time in over year I dont wana listen to podtoid :(
I love you all(and I've missed the HAMzizil) but id rather dildo myself with a red hot curling iron than listen to anyone debate semantics.
Nothing has meaning unless you choose to project meaning unto it. As the mind rots to dust, labels and classifications are just sand castles sinking in the sea.
I love you all(and I've missed the HAMzizil) but id rather dildo myself with a red hot curling iron than listen to anyone debate semantics.
Nothing has meaning unless you choose to project meaning unto it. As the mind rots to dust, labels and classifications are just sand castles sinking in the sea.
I enjoyed the art game discussion. It was a legitimately good debate, which you almost never see. Also I agreed with Jonathan Holmes on something, which you almost never see.
I want to agree with Jonathon about all games being fueled by artistic intent. but when the end of gears three dropped the ball so hard on the idea of the duality of war, that was so apparent throughout the game; or call of duty turning it's one thought provoking moment, putting you into the shoes of all of the people you mow down, into a boring staple of the franchise... I can't help but think that not all "art" was created equally. so I really like the heads up that "art game" gives, so I know I can get either mentally, or emotionally involved in the story and not have to worry about it leaving me dejectedly sat on my front steps, waiting for a trip that will never happen.
Last podtoid episode was the first one ever where I didn't completely listen to the episode. I think it's because there isn't enough.....well, discussion I guess? Between Holmes and Jim. I think it's a lot more entertaining when there's at least three peeps on the cast. Also Conrad=epic debate, always.
This got uploaded just after I went to work so I'll have to listen to it later. But it would be awesome if Conrad could be on this (or any other) podcast more. I love hearing him talk about things! CONRAD TALK ABOUT ALL THE THINGS!
Way to go Jonathan. I truly agree with Jonathan on this week's discussion and I'm glad he had the courage of his conviction to argue against Jim on this topic. I don't always like Jonathan's stance on things but I absolutely respect how open minded he is about things and this topic was one I was happy to hear about (NOT a feminism topic with its wishy-washy "I don't qualified to talk" discussion for half a podcast). I was arguing along side Jonathan while listening to this in my car. It was one of the more engaging topics that I wish it was more fleshed out. Good on you Jonathan.
I don't like the way that Jonathan Holmes' definition of Pac-Man as survival horror was dismissed as ridiculous. Sure; he's using the term more loosely than most people do, but it's true. You experience ratcheting levels of discomfort and - yes - even a mild form of "fear" when the ghosts are pursuing you. It's the same kind of stomach-clenching feeling you have when falling into a pit in Super Mario Bros.
In a more general sense, I'm starting to think that people who are more impressed with an ostensibly serious or "mature" thing are often lacking in depth and need to be told where to look whereas someone who can interpret an ostensibly childish thing (EarthBound and Cubivore come to mind) more seriously are actually the sophisticated ones.
And I'm someone that thinks Jonathan Holmes is usually too precious in his arguments and too self-flagellating in his demeanor.
Well, that was a disturbingly serious analysis of a show that has episodes called "Kirby's Nightmare Fuckhole" and "Your Humble Anal Caretaker".
In a more general sense, I'm starting to think that people who are more impressed with an ostensibly serious or "mature" thing are often lacking in depth and need to be told where to look whereas someone who can interpret an ostensibly childish thing (EarthBound and Cubivore come to mind) more seriously are actually the sophisticated ones.
And I'm someone that thinks Jonathan Holmes is usually too precious in his arguments and too self-flagellating in his demeanor.
Well, that was a disturbingly serious analysis of a show that has episodes called "Kirby's Nightmare Fuckhole" and "Your Humble Anal Caretaker".
Haven't listened yet, but did I get in before someone (looking at you Jim) ripped on Dear Esther?
I feel so sad every time someone gripes about it and I'm not around to defend it. It really isn't a game, and should never be judged as such IMO.
I feel so sad every time someone gripes about it and I'm not around to defend it. It really isn't a game, and should never be judged as such IMO.
@moobear: I'm sorry, but it's silly. In pulling far enough back to fit Pac-Man into the definition of "Survival Horror," the function of the classification is invalidated. If Pac-Man is a game of survival horror, than so is the game of tag I played in the schoolyard.
There's a generally accepted definition for things and then there's the one Holmes comes up with.
There's a generally accepted definition for things and then there's the one Holmes comes up with.
Just listened to the first few minutes....of episode 206 (again). They covered "art games" pretty well that episode, so I'm curious (read; apprehensive) how they'll keep up the discussion so much that this episode fetched the name Art Games.
Guys as much as I love the crazy shenanigans Jim usually comes up with I also enjoy shrewd discussion. Conrad was not only funny, but brought up sound arguments and seemed in general fair regarding all the differing opinions. He also seemed to know what weight an opinion of his might carry, which is not something I can say of all the parts involved. Needless to say I think Conrad would make a great addition to the cast.
I cringe a little when I hear Jim saying that people complain when podtoid is about videogames and serious discussion because I enjoy that other dimension of it very much as well, I don't want a podtoid that is exclusvely one or the other, and I think it's kind of a shame we don't get to hear you discussing old games, concepts and ideas too often because a more vocal part of your listeners seemed to have managed to convince you that is what MOST of us prefer.
You guys can be BRILLIANT and a joy to listen to and you seem to underrate how entertaining that can be as well. Also, if you keep trying to be silly and outrageous ALL the time it loses its comedic impact.
So please be silly, witty, outrageous, euphoric, vulgar and pedophillic but be also critical, argumentative, controversial, political, philosophical, etc.
I cringe a little when I hear Jim saying that people complain when podtoid is about videogames and serious discussion because I enjoy that other dimension of it very much as well, I don't want a podtoid that is exclusvely one or the other, and I think it's kind of a shame we don't get to hear you discussing old games, concepts and ideas too often because a more vocal part of your listeners seemed to have managed to convince you that is what MOST of us prefer.
You guys can be BRILLIANT and a joy to listen to and you seem to underrate how entertaining that can be as well. Also, if you keep trying to be silly and outrageous ALL the time it loses its comedic impact.
So please be silly, witty, outrageous, euphoric, vulgar and pedophillic but be also critical, argumentative, controversial, political, philosophical, etc.
By the way I find hilarious that Jim named this episode Art Games, it really is, just look up all the names podtoid has had in the last 60 iterations, hear the discussion and ponder on sheer, unsavory joy Jim got out of doing just that.
"The combat in Penny Arcade 3 sounds EXACTLY like the combat system from Grandia."
So very this.
I was practically screaming at my laptop while Jim was praising them for 'innovating like the indie guys tend to do'
So very this.
I was practically screaming at my laptop while Jim was praising them for 'innovating like the indie guys tend to do'
Brilliant episode all, by far my favourite to date. Edging towards Holmes on the redundancy of labelling 'art games'. Here's hoping the 4 of you can hook up for a future episode or three. Again, great job.
""The combat in Penny Arcade 3 sounds EXACTLY like the combat system from Grandia."
So very this.
I was practically screaming at my laptop while Jim was praising them for 'innovating like the indie guys tend to do'"
I had the same reaction.
So very this.
I was practically screaming at my laptop while Jim was praising them for 'innovating like the indie guys tend to do'"
I had the same reaction.
100 percent agree with Jonathan Holmes on the whole art-game term discussion. My personal definition of art-game is boring, pretentious shit.
"The combat in Penny Arcade 3 sounds EXACTLY like the combat system from Grandia."
I rushed here to say this. Grandia was/is a very good game.
I rushed here to say this. Grandia was/is a very good game.
Great episode. However, one could argue that Holmes' argument against the term "art game" could easily be applied to the term "art". All things can be viewed from an artistic perspective and therefore all things are "art" (or at least have the potential to be). Consequently, under Holmes' argument, the term "art" then becomes meaningless since everything is art (like all games are "art games"). So, either we should stop using the term "art," or we should continue to use these terms as we currently do; where their use is based on general community consensus or compelling argument justifying such use.
Jim's justification for using the word "art game" would also apply to racial slurs and other insulting identifiers
I don't have much of an opinion about the whole art game thing... I definitely can see Holmes' point, but he's sadly fighting a losing battle. Every time Holmes said to not use the term, I just felt like he was similar to an American telling other Americans to stop calling football football because football should be used for soccer. (That is an awesome sentence right there. And, BTW, I would totally be in favor of renaming American football to something else and calling soccer football.)
I thought Conrad might be "boring," but hell no he wasn't. His relatively dry humor was a great fit, you should try to get him on more regularly.
I thought Conrad might be "boring," but hell no he wasn't. His relatively dry humor was a great fit, you should try to get him on more regularly.
Great episode as always! I very much enjoyed Conrad's inclusion and contribution this week, and I hope he appears again soon. I also hope there's more Office Chat to come soon.
Holmes, I love you, but this time I have to disagree. I do see what you're saying, that all games are art, but I feel that that argument was never relevant as Jim and Conrad agree and never disputed the idea. The term "art game", as they said, works as a quick identifier, as a genre label. I think you were against the idea simply because you thought negatively about it - not everyone writes off a game labeled as "art". And the ones that do most likely aren't open-minded enough to enjoy great games.
To your credit though, using it as a genre label is slightly redundant, due to the fact that art can mean anything when genres are intended to be specific. Still, I think on the whole it does work and I see it in a similar light to an "Unclassified" genre that you see in iTunes (and maybe services like Netflix?). Its something unique, for better or worse, and the inability to label an "art" or "unclassified" game can be a compliment or insult, depending on the game in question.
Maybe I'm wrong. I honestly feel very out of touch with art in general, and "games as art" doesn't really mean much to me. I just thought I'd share my opinion in a comment that's put out too late and just under the 50 comment threshold so that no one in the world will ever read it ever. Also cocks.
Holmes, I love you, but this time I have to disagree. I do see what you're saying, that all games are art, but I feel that that argument was never relevant as Jim and Conrad agree and never disputed the idea. The term "art game", as they said, works as a quick identifier, as a genre label. I think you were against the idea simply because you thought negatively about it - not everyone writes off a game labeled as "art". And the ones that do most likely aren't open-minded enough to enjoy great games.
To your credit though, using it as a genre label is slightly redundant, due to the fact that art can mean anything when genres are intended to be specific. Still, I think on the whole it does work and I see it in a similar light to an "Unclassified" genre that you see in iTunes (and maybe services like Netflix?). Its something unique, for better or worse, and the inability to label an "art" or "unclassified" game can be a compliment or insult, depending on the game in question.
Maybe I'm wrong. I honestly feel very out of touch with art in general, and "games as art" doesn't really mean much to me. I just thought I'd share my opinion in a comment that's put out too late and just under the 50 comment threshold so that no one in the world will ever read it ever. Also cocks.
I have this argument for the term "AAA game".
When gamers and "journalists" refer to a game as AAA, they tend to mean it's good. That's the wrong way to use it, but unfortunately they're not usually wrong, since this industry seems to over-value production value and equates it to "good" and other adjectives describing the experience. "AAA" in games is basically a description of a game's budget. It's an indicator of the quality of the team(s) working on the game, and how much money and time they're given to make it.
Good workers, with plenty of time and money, usually make something good, so again when "AAA" is used incorrectly, it's not inherently incorrect. My position is to get people to move away from thinking that AAA = 90% on gamerankings, or your lazy review aggregate site of choice.
So, that's much like Homles and his "art game" argument; when gamers call something an "art game", they're not wrong, but their thinking is, which he desires to change.
Dunno, I didn't enjoy this episode that much. As I'm sure you know, listening to you guys work out the messy microphone situation isn't fun. The art games subject could have wrapped up much quicker, if -both- sides would be more understanding that they are -both- correct. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I don't really remember the 3DS XL being brought up, or at the very least, it wasn't brought up while Holmes was around. Disappointing in both cases, since it has the potential to branch into several interesting topics.
When gamers and "journalists" refer to a game as AAA, they tend to mean it's good. That's the wrong way to use it, but unfortunately they're not usually wrong, since this industry seems to over-value production value and equates it to "good" and other adjectives describing the experience. "AAA" in games is basically a description of a game's budget. It's an indicator of the quality of the team(s) working on the game, and how much money and time they're given to make it.
Good workers, with plenty of time and money, usually make something good, so again when "AAA" is used incorrectly, it's not inherently incorrect. My position is to get people to move away from thinking that AAA = 90% on gamerankings, or your lazy review aggregate site of choice.
So, that's much like Homles and his "art game" argument; when gamers call something an "art game", they're not wrong, but their thinking is, which he desires to change.
Dunno, I didn't enjoy this episode that much. As I'm sure you know, listening to you guys work out the messy microphone situation isn't fun. The art games subject could have wrapped up much quicker, if -both- sides would be more understanding that they are -both- correct. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I don't really remember the 3DS XL being brought up, or at the very least, it wasn't brought up while Holmes was around. Disappointing in both cases, since it has the potential to branch into several interesting topics.
How Holmes still comes off as super-patronising even while making an argument that makes no sense at all is brilliant.
Jim and Conrad sensibly state the use of the 'art game' term to describe games where the primary intention is to interactively represent a concept or philosophical idea, and Jonathan responds with 'all games have art in them, and some people don't like the term art games so it shouldn't exist'. Uh..
If Jonathan were king, nouns and adjectives would be outlawed so that nobody would ever know what they were about to do, and thus couldn't pre-judge any experience. Because having preconceptions is obviously bad to the point where labels are wrong unless they're for only the very broadest of things. Heaven forbid society may have established just such a system as a way of allowing people to prioritise their time and make well-informed decisions...
Ultimately I guess I would like to know if Jonathan were to accidentally show up to an orgy, would he be annoyed with the friend who brought him there if said friend made the argument that "it's just another kind of human interaction. Using the word 'orgy' is like saying 'interaction interaction', it doesn't mean anything." Because, you know... 'art' and 'videogame' obviously have no distinct, separate, unrelated, independent meaning or anything...
Jim and Conrad sensibly state the use of the 'art game' term to describe games where the primary intention is to interactively represent a concept or philosophical idea, and Jonathan responds with 'all games have art in them, and some people don't like the term art games so it shouldn't exist'. Uh..
If Jonathan were king, nouns and adjectives would be outlawed so that nobody would ever know what they were about to do, and thus couldn't pre-judge any experience. Because having preconceptions is obviously bad to the point where labels are wrong unless they're for only the very broadest of things. Heaven forbid society may have established just such a system as a way of allowing people to prioritise their time and make well-informed decisions...
Ultimately I guess I would like to know if Jonathan were to accidentally show up to an orgy, would he be annoyed with the friend who brought him there if said friend made the argument that "it's just another kind of human interaction. Using the word 'orgy' is like saying 'interaction interaction', it doesn't mean anything." Because, you know... 'art' and 'videogame' obviously have no distinct, separate, unrelated, independent meaning or anything...
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