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Didn't he bet the internet that he wouldn't talk for 6 months? Doesn't this violate that?
Or am I wrong?
Or am I wrong?
Dude, he thought you were a homophobe. We might as well just group you in with Orson Scott Card now, Ahmadinejad.
/joke
/joke
I listened to it last night after I finished the recaps, but I was pretty tired. From what it sounded like at the time, you guys seemed to mostly agree except he had a more pessimistic spin on things. Something he said along the lines of 'interactivity creating a wall between the player and an experience that isn't centered merely on fun' didn't sit right with me.
I suppose I'll have to give it another listen when I'm not exhausted and brain dead though.
I suppose I'll have to give it another listen when I'm not exhausted and brain dead though.
Some interesting things in this cast. I would love to see what rev thinks on this and its key points.
Jaffe's explanation of why "Heartland" never would have worked is complete bullshit and reflects poorer on his abilities as a designer than the medium's ability to have emotional resonance.
If you are a good director, the player will be so immersed in what is happening that they won't even consider shooting the kneeling mother, or dicking around in the house (until perhaps their second play through).
Look bro, if a movie sucks and is boring, I can stand up and walk out. If it's done well, I won't want it to end and be trapped in the fiction.
Howsabout you don't sell your audience so short?
If you are a good director, the player will be so immersed in what is happening that they won't even consider shooting the kneeling mother, or dicking around in the house (until perhaps their second play through).
Look bro, if a movie sucks and is boring, I can stand up and walk out. If it's done well, I won't want it to end and be trapped in the fiction.
Howsabout you don't sell your audience so short?
I hope you brought up that calling things that aren't fun "games" is absurd, and something like "interactive media" or something similar makes a lot more sense. Or something to that effect. That was my biggest gripe with your rant.
I'll give this a listen later.
I'll give this a listen later.
I don't get why so many ppl here are commenting so negative about Jaffe.
I think Cadtalfryn is right:
Jaffe just seems to have a rather negative view. And this could be due to his time working in the business.
That doesn't mean he is right though, but working in a field definitely changes your perspective, so maybe a new generation of devs will see other openings and chances to achieve other levels of immersion.
I think Cadtalfryn is right:
Jaffe just seems to have a rather negative view. And this could be due to his time working in the business.
That doesn't mean he is right though, but working in a field definitely changes your perspective, so maybe a new generation of devs will see other openings and chances to achieve other levels of immersion.
So David Jaffe helped create God of War. If Jaffe is so experienced and smart about "games" then why did he have to bring up Anthony in spite of the Rev Rant?
People like Jaffe that back up their so called wisdom with the success they have accomplished are doing so because they feel threatened. If you already know your right, then why not wait and just let the other person prove it for you?
The fact Jaffe seems oblivious that most people can tell his ego is hurt by what Anthony said just further proves Davids reaction to the Rev Rant shows enough of Davids own insecurity to let us all know David knows Anthony brought up a extremely valid issue in gaming.
Bra-fuckin-'0
People like Jaffe that back up their so called wisdom with the success they have accomplished are doing so because they feel threatened. If you already know your right, then why not wait and just let the other person prove it for you?
The fact Jaffe seems oblivious that most people can tell his ego is hurt by what Anthony said just further proves Davids reaction to the Rev Rant shows enough of Davids own insecurity to let us all know David knows Anthony brought up a extremely valid issue in gaming.
Bra-fuckin-'0
* Man, this episode was fucking boring. Linsten anthony talk with other guys in regular podtoid episodes is cool, but anthony and david together are too much bulshit talk.
I actually agree more with Jaffe than Anthony, but I thought Jaffe came off as kind of a douche when he got all upset over Anthony saying "pretentious indy fag." It saddens me that the creator of God of War and Twisted Metal is an advocate of the bullshit politically correct movement.
The PC movement basically says that if you use a word like "fag", because that word can be used as a homophobic term, if you use it at all you're a homophobe regardless of your intentions. That's like me saying that an apple can be used to throw at somebody's head, so if you eat an apple, that's just as bad as throwing it and hitting someone in the head. The PC movement is completely ridiculous, and anyone in favor of it is a retarded fag who hates free speech.
The PC movement basically says that if you use a word like "fag", because that word can be used as a homophobic term, if you use it at all you're a homophobe regardless of your intentions. That's like me saying that an apple can be used to throw at somebody's head, so if you eat an apple, that's just as bad as throwing it and hitting someone in the head. The PC movement is completely ridiculous, and anyone in favor of it is a retarded fag who hates free speech.
that was really good. Jaffe is a very engaging fellow. i hope heavy rain and the last guardian show some new emotions in games for other developers to try and improve upon.
I started game design school.
I made a board game last lesson.
Players breaking the mechanics is just the worst.
I feel you Jaffe.
But the remark to "Indiefag" kinda gets to me. The way I see it, the language is changing, and it's origins of the word is becoming irrelevant, and detached. Picking it out was an dick move, though politically correct.
I made a board game last lesson.
Players breaking the mechanics is just the worst.
I feel you Jaffe.
But the remark to "Indiefag" kinda gets to me. The way I see it, the language is changing, and it's origins of the word is becoming irrelevant, and detached. Picking it out was an dick move, though politically correct.
@ mrplow8
I find it troublesome that your attempt to use the word ironic caused my head to explode. Also, way to hate language. Using a word which is representative of the collective hate against a sub-culture to hate a different sub-culture is not ironic, it's ignorant.
I find it troublesome that your attempt to use the word ironic caused my head to explode. Also, way to hate language. Using a word which is representative of the collective hate against a sub-culture to hate a different sub-culture is not ironic, it's ignorant.
That was interesting.
I liked Jaffe's points about the "playground" mentality making it really difficult for games to reach the level a lot of us seem to want.
In the end though you did seem to agree on most things which was nice to see. He's a pretty smart guy I think and he put forward his points well just like Anthony always does.
My take on it all is that it's definitely possible to do this stuff and I really want to see some genuine attempts, but at the same time I understand and sympathise with developers etc. who bring up these problems, a lot of which seem inherent in the medium itself.
I liked Jaffe's points about the "playground" mentality making it really difficult for games to reach the level a lot of us seem to want.
In the end though you did seem to agree on most things which was nice to see. He's a pretty smart guy I think and he put forward his points well just like Anthony always does.
My take on it all is that it's definitely possible to do this stuff and I really want to see some genuine attempts, but at the same time I understand and sympathise with developers etc. who bring up these problems, a lot of which seem inherent in the medium itself.
@ mrplow8 comment #2:
"Just because I am DRESSED like a police officer, does not give you the RIGHT to assume I am one."
You're saying you should be able to use a word with an existing, contemporary meaning without having to deal with people assuming you're using it with that meaning in mind, even when you use it in the exact same context of its pre-existing meaning?
"Just because I am DRESSED like a police officer, does not give you the RIGHT to assume I am one."
You're saying you should be able to use a word with an existing, contemporary meaning without having to deal with people assuming you're using it with that meaning in mind, even when you use it in the exact same context of its pre-existing meaning?
I thought at the end when Jaffe talks about Shadow of the Colossus he's basically insulting everyone's intelligence and ability to interpret.
@Gestault
I personally don't use the word ignorant, because I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that word without sounding like a condescending douchebag. Of course, just because I don't like that word doesn't mean I get to tell other people they can't say it.
I personally don't use the word ignorant, because I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that word without sounding like a condescending douchebag. Of course, just because I don't like that word doesn't mean I get to tell other people they can't say it.
@ mrplow8:
I don't recall anyone telling anyone they couldn't use the word, not in this podcast, and not in this conversation. Jaffe was bothered that the word was used so flippantly. I feel similarly. What I'm trying to get across is that you can say whatever you want, it doesn't mean you aren't accountable for how people respond to it.
And I used the word ignorant exactly in line with its meaning in the English language. Sorry to have "offended" you by its proper use.
I don't recall anyone telling anyone they couldn't use the word, not in this podcast, and not in this conversation. Jaffe was bothered that the word was used so flippantly. I feel similarly. What I'm trying to get across is that you can say whatever you want, it doesn't mean you aren't accountable for how people respond to it.
And I used the word ignorant exactly in line with its meaning in the English language. Sorry to have "offended" you by its proper use.
@Gestault
The meaning of words change all the time. The word "stupid" originally meant an extreme case of mental retardation. Over time it eventually came to mean something else, and now if you call someone retarded people will say "Don't say retarded, say stupid."
The bottom line is, 99% of the time it's obvious if people meant what they said to be offensive or not. All you have to do is pull your head out of your ass long enough to listen. I'm not saying that to you specifically, I'm just saying that in general. People are too quick to be offended about everything. Jim just posted an article today about controversy over a watermelon item in Scribblenauts. We don't have a right to not be offended in the country. I'm kind of sick of the people who are offended telling everyone else what they can or can't say or do.
Your argument is flawed, because it would be like me saying that eggs are used to egg houses, so if you choose to eat eggs knowing they could be used to egg houses than you might as well have egged someone's house. You could have chosen to eat something else instead.
The meaning of words change all the time. The word "stupid" originally meant an extreme case of mental retardation. Over time it eventually came to mean something else, and now if you call someone retarded people will say "Don't say retarded, say stupid."
The bottom line is, 99% of the time it's obvious if people meant what they said to be offensive or not. All you have to do is pull your head out of your ass long enough to listen. I'm not saying that to you specifically, I'm just saying that in general. People are too quick to be offended about everything. Jim just posted an article today about controversy over a watermelon item in Scribblenauts. We don't have a right to not be offended in the country. I'm kind of sick of the people who are offended telling everyone else what they can or can't say or do.
Your argument is flawed, because it would be like me saying that eggs are used to egg houses, so if you choose to eat eggs knowing they could be used to egg houses than you might as well have egged someone's house. You could have chosen to eat something else instead.
Jaffe's ideas, while well-articulated for the most part, seem to come from a very cynical yet naive place. I don't consider his cynicism to be resulting solely from his experience in the business, as some other people are saying here. That's a copout, in my view. This isn't purely "grizzled veteran" cynicism.
There are plenty of people in other media who "work in the biz" who somehow manage to make things that are artistically and culturally relevant beyond their immediate marketing scope (or they can at least imagine it or acknowledge it).
His cynicism, in my perspective, seems to come from a lack of exposure to, or appreciation of, or education in, basic art or visual theory...and I'm not talking upper division or graduate stuff here. He takes a very purist, workmanship, "craft not art" stance on the matter because he just doesn't seem to have the vocabulary to engage the other side or to look outside of the trench he's dug himself into.
This does limit your imagination and engagement, in my opinion, when discussing games as art or cultural interactive artifacts. I don't want to sound demeaning or anything, but I personally find it very frustrating to listen to. He has his moments, but for the most part his view on the medium just annoys the hell out of me.
For instance, I honestly don't think he "got" any of the Eisenstein parallels that Anthony brought up. And if he fails to sort of comprehend visual theory on that level or at least engage the discussion without veering into his own rant that was almost completely tangential to what was asked... that makes it hard to listen to the rest of the discussion. Just sayin.
There are plenty of people in other media who "work in the biz" who somehow manage to make things that are artistically and culturally relevant beyond their immediate marketing scope (or they can at least imagine it or acknowledge it).
His cynicism, in my perspective, seems to come from a lack of exposure to, or appreciation of, or education in, basic art or visual theory...and I'm not talking upper division or graduate stuff here. He takes a very purist, workmanship, "craft not art" stance on the matter because he just doesn't seem to have the vocabulary to engage the other side or to look outside of the trench he's dug himself into.
This does limit your imagination and engagement, in my opinion, when discussing games as art or cultural interactive artifacts. I don't want to sound demeaning or anything, but I personally find it very frustrating to listen to. He has his moments, but for the most part his view on the medium just annoys the hell out of me.
For instance, I honestly don't think he "got" any of the Eisenstein parallels that Anthony brought up. And if he fails to sort of comprehend visual theory on that level or at least engage the discussion without veering into his own rant that was almost completely tangential to what was asked... that makes it hard to listen to the rest of the discussion. Just sayin.
@ mrplow8
I appreciate the extra explanation about what we were talking about before, though your analogy at the end I'm still not seeing eye to eye with you on. I'm saying if you hold up an egg, don't be surprised if someone says "that's an egg", even if it has developed other outside connotations.
I appreciate the extra explanation about what we were talking about before, though your analogy at the end I'm still not seeing eye to eye with you on. I'm saying if you hold up an egg, don't be surprised if someone says "that's an egg", even if it has developed other outside connotations.
@Gestault
Okay, well I don't think that either one of us is going to change the other's mind. To be clear, I have no problem with gay people at all, and I rarely even use the word fag except for when I'm pointing out how stupid I think it is that people make such a big deal out of it. I just hate the way people are constantly labeled racist or homophobic for saying things that clearly weren't meant to be taken that way. I think you cheapen the meaning of those words when you group the guy who casually uses the word "fag" to describe indy gamers with the guy who hates gay people and wants to actually take their rights away or do actual harm to them.
Okay, well I don't think that either one of us is going to change the other's mind. To be clear, I have no problem with gay people at all, and I rarely even use the word fag except for when I'm pointing out how stupid I think it is that people make such a big deal out of it. I just hate the way people are constantly labeled racist or homophobic for saying things that clearly weren't meant to be taken that way. I think you cheapen the meaning of those words when you group the guy who casually uses the word "fag" to describe indy gamers with the guy who hates gay people and wants to actually take their rights away or do actual harm to them.
@ mrplow8
That's more than fair, and I like that last bit, though I might mention that I think the people using the word "fag" to describe someone they don't like (as you're defending) is still an issue.
That's more than fair, and I like that last bit, though I might mention that I think the people using the word "fag" to describe someone they don't like (as you're defending) is still an issue.
This was surprisingly boring. I guess I just disagreed with him in the most uninteresting way. I don't think he's right, and his opinions gave me nothing to think about or challenge me with. He's probably tired and thus bad at articulating, but his thoughts seemed to be utterly detached from any argument I wanted to hear.
Also good podcast, interesting stuff, I don't get why almost everyone on here seems to want to rip the guy's head off.
Yeah, I was with Jaffe most of the way. The political correctness is a little annoying, and it was kind of a distraction from the topic.
Otherwise, I think Jaffe's right. Sorry, Anth.
Otherwise, I think Jaffe's right. Sorry, Anth.
@king kong five
What was wrong with my analogies? Making a word "bad" regardless of how it's used or the intent behind it is no different than making an item "bad" regardless of how it's used or the intent behind it. If there is a difference, please tell me what it is.
What was wrong with my analogies? Making a word "bad" regardless of how it's used or the intent behind it is no different than making an item "bad" regardless of how it's used or the intent behind it. If there is a difference, please tell me what it is.
I agree with SuitcoatAvenger. Such a situation won't instantly break and be impossible because it can be broken. It'll just only work once. Especially if early on in the game you include a way for the player to minorly fuck up a situation instead of majorly break the scenario, and have him significantly reprimanded and punished in a gameplay manner, like getting his best gun taken away or something.
Either way, most people will behave, I think. I wasn't jumping on people's heads and throwing props at them my first time through HL2. That shit was a second playthrough. I know myself I've thought of many things and thought "That's be great, but only work once, only if they aren't spoiled".
Either way, most people will behave, I think. I wasn't jumping on people's heads and throwing props at them my first time through HL2. That shit was a second playthrough. I know myself I've thought of many things and thought "That's be great, but only work once, only if they aren't spoiled".
There were two things that kind of bugged me about this debate:
1) The political correctness thing. If anything, Anthony was criticizing the common opinion of indie gamers, and Jaffe jumps all over it despite the previous fact. Maybe he wasn't really listening or something, I don't know.
2) This whole thing wouldn't have happened if Jaffe correctly interpreted the Rev Rant that started all this. In the last few minutes of the podcast, Jaffe makes it clear that he didn't really know there are lots of people who think games HAVE to be fun. He just automatically assumed it was about developers, then got defensive and made an angry video. By the time you guys got around to recording it, he had calmed down, and actually sounded intelligent...hence, all the agreement in this debate.
Regardless, there were some interesting points from both sides. Pretty cool that he actually came through on this, too.
1) The political correctness thing. If anything, Anthony was criticizing the common opinion of indie gamers, and Jaffe jumps all over it despite the previous fact. Maybe he wasn't really listening or something, I don't know.
2) This whole thing wouldn't have happened if Jaffe correctly interpreted the Rev Rant that started all this. In the last few minutes of the podcast, Jaffe makes it clear that he didn't really know there are lots of people who think games HAVE to be fun. He just automatically assumed it was about developers, then got defensive and made an angry video. By the time you guys got around to recording it, he had calmed down, and actually sounded intelligent...hence, all the agreement in this debate.
Regardless, there were some interesting points from both sides. Pretty cool that he actually came through on this, too.
Jaffe should feel embarrased for the "pretentious indie fag" correction. That was little annoying, but a solid discussion from both sides.
Yeah pretty good discussion. Thanks for that. And you know whats funny, that movie he describe "filming a window for 5 hours" I know what hes talking about. Its actually a 45 min film called Wavelength's, and it is pretty hard to watch because it is meant to make the audience very uncomfortable. Thank god I only watched the abridged version which is only 11 minutes. Don't know why I felt to write that down I guess for people who are interested in an alternative viewing experience in film.
I still can't get over the fact that he honestly thinks that interactivity and lack of complete authorial control somehow structurally preclude art. Authorial control and art haven't been mutual requisites since the 60's.
great, very much interesting podcast. But where are people getting off saying that Jaffe looked like a douche calling out the fag thing? As if it reflects poorly upon him that he dislikes the word. It has nothing to do with being PC or whatever bullshit people are coming up with. While I'll call someone an asscunt at the drop of a hat, I tend to shy away from fag. It's a word with a history of hatred behind it. And while those words might not mean anything to you, they certainly have nothing but negative connotations for others. Also, Anthony and David don't know each other that well, and there is an absolute difference to how you react to a conversation with a friend, and how you react to a conversation with an acquaintance.
@TheRico
Here's why PC is BS. Let's say my father was murdered in front of me by gunshot. Now let's say I'm on an elevator with a group of people I don't know, it's myself, a gay guy, and 2 other people who we'll call Mike and Steve. Now let's say Mike is doing something that really annoys Steve, and Steve jokingly says "Stop or I'm going to shoot you, fag." Do I have just as much of a right to be offended by that statement because of the word "shoot" as the gay guy does because of the word "fag?
If not, then explain why. If yes, then should we also discourage people from making jokes or references to people being shot(which would include games and movies), and jump on their case when they do?
Here's why PC is BS. Let's say my father was murdered in front of me by gunshot. Now let's say I'm on an elevator with a group of people I don't know, it's myself, a gay guy, and 2 other people who we'll call Mike and Steve. Now let's say Mike is doing something that really annoys Steve, and Steve jokingly says "Stop or I'm going to shoot you, fag." Do I have just as much of a right to be offended by that statement because of the word "shoot" as the gay guy does because of the word "fag?
If not, then explain why. If yes, then should we also discourage people from making jokes or references to people being shot(which would include games and movies), and jump on their case when they do?
@mrplow
First of all, I'm not a Progressive Conservative whatsoever, I agree it's a bullshit movement, but I do work in a professional environment where you watch what you say to your peers, not due to a fear of offending them, but out of a desire to show them respect. I don't think we should constantly watch out tongues on the offhand chance that a stranger will take offense. Sometimes those situations like that occur, and they're uncomfortable, most people won't react to the shooting thing. But if that gay gentlemen in your scenario takes offense, you apologize, end of discussion. If he takes it with a grain of salt, even better right?
As a young person, I got to participate in anti-social behavior where I could dismiss responsibility for my actions under the excuse of personal expression. Now that I am an adult, I get through my days by showing people the respect I want from them. You don't have to like that, that's fine, but if it's how you want to conduct yourself, understand you're potentially closing a lot of doors for yourself.
Anyways...sorry, that was a tangent. Back to Jaffe and Burch.
If they were long time friends, then there would be a historical precedent for the phrase 'Indie Fag', there would be mutual understanding, not unlike if you told your friend 'Stop or I'm going to shoot you, fag'. Your friend understands the intention with that phrase. David Jaffe and Anthony Burch don't have that historical precedent, that mutual understanding. Burch wasn't wrong to assume, he was just speaking as he usually does, there's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with Jaffe having a problem with such a casual usage of the word by someone he doesn't know that well. It's not as if he tore his headset off and refused to continue, or demanded Burch call himself an 'indie homosexual', he essentially said. 'I don't like that word. Please don't use it if you're going to speak to me.' I don't think of that as a PC move. That's all.
Sorry for this gargantuan read.
First of all, I'm not a Progressive Conservative whatsoever, I agree it's a bullshit movement, but I do work in a professional environment where you watch what you say to your peers, not due to a fear of offending them, but out of a desire to show them respect. I don't think we should constantly watch out tongues on the offhand chance that a stranger will take offense. Sometimes those situations like that occur, and they're uncomfortable, most people won't react to the shooting thing. But if that gay gentlemen in your scenario takes offense, you apologize, end of discussion. If he takes it with a grain of salt, even better right?
As a young person, I got to participate in anti-social behavior where I could dismiss responsibility for my actions under the excuse of personal expression. Now that I am an adult, I get through my days by showing people the respect I want from them. You don't have to like that, that's fine, but if it's how you want to conduct yourself, understand you're potentially closing a lot of doors for yourself.
Anyways...sorry, that was a tangent. Back to Jaffe and Burch.
If they were long time friends, then there would be a historical precedent for the phrase 'Indie Fag', there would be mutual understanding, not unlike if you told your friend 'Stop or I'm going to shoot you, fag'. Your friend understands the intention with that phrase. David Jaffe and Anthony Burch don't have that historical precedent, that mutual understanding. Burch wasn't wrong to assume, he was just speaking as he usually does, there's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with Jaffe having a problem with such a casual usage of the word by someone he doesn't know that well. It's not as if he tore his headset off and refused to continue, or demanded Burch call himself an 'indie homosexual', he essentially said. 'I don't like that word. Please don't use it if you're going to speak to me.' I don't think of that as a PC move. That's all.
Sorry for this gargantuan read.
i really wish i can have a in dept message with you anthony on this topic because as a teen its hard to find someone who wants to see a "good meaning" within movies/video games, if i ever bring it up i get called a "fag" or i get this stupid look as they move on to talking about the action scene parts, most recently i had seen the movies 9 and district 9 and when i bashed 9 for not developing characters to the extent where i felt as if the deaths of these characters moved me emotionally my friends switched to saying "you cant be too mad at it the action scenes where good and it looked nice" i then wanted to slap my friend in the face and say "NO DUDE FUCK THAT THE MOVIE SUCKS AND THE PLOT WAS MORALLY WRONG". i dont understand how looking good makes justice for a action such as a hot teacher (female)molesting a student is hot while a ugly woman is just wrong...i can go on but to the real point the "fun doesnt matter" argument you point out is layered but one of theses layers is total bull shit and that is the whole "message with meaning over fun". i will point out district 9 in this case, while the movie had some great points in it such as propaganda (etc.) it yet still had action where the main character kills a massive horde of people but my friends mention more the cussing and shooting rather then the message of the story's morals yet when i brought it up they actually agreed and conversed upon how it was catching their attention the points about not understanding a struggle until truly experienced, which lets me finally get to the real point if a game is not fun you lose attention therefore people don't play enough of it to get the message because they have control where unlike movies there is a sort of obligation to watch the full thing because it "has you" you dont really control it to an extent. 70% teens want to have fun in games and "realistic" feeling.but when you give them full reality like real reality is not always fun and they complain, and that is how i feel the whole "message over fun" is a load of shit and will never work unless the game is "fun" you will never play it and get the message so it has to have a yin and yang or most wont pay attention and simply turn off the game, you need action such as in the movie d9 to attract the view/player first then slowly weave in the moral food for thought to achieve gaming nirvana
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