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Both have terrible developers, but Japan is clearly on a long-term downward trend. Twenty years ago, they absolutely dominated console gaming. Ten years ago they were still strong and competitive. These days.. only 3 or 4 Japanese developers summon anything but rage from me. Nintendo is still amazing, even if I don't buy their stuff as much. From has it going on with the Souls stuff. Atlus is cool. Uhh.. Arc System Works is cool.
After Nintendo, you're basically dealing with a bunch of little, cool development teams/studios. None of the other old greats are really doing anything good these days.
After Nintendo, you're basically dealing with a bunch of little, cool development teams/studios. None of the other old greats are really doing anything good these days.
"There are tons of terrible Western developers, just like there are tons of terrible Japanese developers. To lump studios together in great masses misses the point"
Quote of the Day.
Quote of the Day.
Some of the criticism aimed towards Japanese devs are valid, but people definitely shouldn't generalize like that. I bet many people who dismiss all Japanese devs don't even see that their favorite games are made by one. Just look at the success of Dragon's Dogma, for example.
@killias, I think you are mistaken. Capcom, Square, Level 5, Konami are all great developers, and there are more. Maybe DLC is making you angry or something else, but I have enjoyed more games from the east than the west this gen.
"Capcom, Square, Level 5, Konami are all great developers, and there are more. Maybe DLC is making you angry or something else, but I have enjoyed more games from the east than the west this gen."
I'm not a big person when it comes to complaining about DLC. In any case, that hardly separates West from East, haha.
I think a lot of it is that I'm becoming more of a PC gamer. As a result, I tend to favor American and European developers, as they focus more on the PC.
Still, Capcom has basically done nothing but shit itself this generation, ditto with Square. Konami.. what do they even do besides Kojima stuff anymore? The endless stream of mediocre Castlevania reboots make me yawn (even with Kojima involved); Silent Hill has been a joke for years; and I can't even think of what else they're doing. I'll admit, Konami hasn't embarrassed itself to the extent of Capcom or Square, but it's been a long fall since the days of the NES and SNES. I mean, Konami was one of the best developers in the world for two straight generations. Ditto Square, ditto Enix, ditto Capcom.
But, yeah, I'm sure there are still great smaller developers. Level 5 seems to make some good stuff, though I haven't played much of it. Half Minute Hero by Marvelous is my favorite game on the PSP, hands down. Demon Souls and Dark Souls are both awesome.
I guess my biggest issue with Japan is with the big developers. They've really fallen far since the old days.
I'm not a big person when it comes to complaining about DLC. In any case, that hardly separates West from East, haha.
I think a lot of it is that I'm becoming more of a PC gamer. As a result, I tend to favor American and European developers, as they focus more on the PC.
Still, Capcom has basically done nothing but shit itself this generation, ditto with Square. Konami.. what do they even do besides Kojima stuff anymore? The endless stream of mediocre Castlevania reboots make me yawn (even with Kojima involved); Silent Hill has been a joke for years; and I can't even think of what else they're doing. I'll admit, Konami hasn't embarrassed itself to the extent of Capcom or Square, but it's been a long fall since the days of the NES and SNES. I mean, Konami was one of the best developers in the world for two straight generations. Ditto Square, ditto Enix, ditto Capcom.
But, yeah, I'm sure there are still great smaller developers. Level 5 seems to make some good stuff, though I haven't played much of it. Half Minute Hero by Marvelous is my favorite game on the PSP, hands down. Demon Souls and Dark Souls are both awesome.
I guess my biggest issue with Japan is with the big developers. They've really fallen far since the old days.
I think "terrible" is a pretty harsh word to be at the focus of the discussion, but I agree with the sentiment.
@sluntchop
Let's dissect this.
Capcom--The last 'great things' they've released in the span of ten years are as follows: Okamiden, Ghost Trick, Ace Attourney stuff, Asura's Wrath, Lost Planet, Dragon's Dogma, a rerelease of Jojo's, UMvC3, SF4." Other than that they've been outsourcing their franchises to western developers to make god awful reboots (Bionic Commando, that canceled Strider project) and sequels to boring new IPs (Dead Rising.) Along with worthless iOS ports and LOL DLC. Though these are my preferences.
Konami--absolutely ruining Silent Hill's integrity with the constant outsourcing of their product, releasing MGS titles with little to no marketing thinking it will survive on brand name alone, acquiring Hudson Soft and NOT publishing games THEY'VE FINISHED. (Bonk HD, Bomberman 2012.), aaaaand nothing really new from the developer outside of NeverDead.
Square--Overcharging iOS games in the $15-$30 range, a HORRIBLE launch for FFXIV, nothing out of the JP side outside of more FFXIII milking, and not making a push to get Dragon Quest X to be localized. their EU/US front is fine, it's the JPN side that needs to be fixed.
Level 5 is the only developer that i'd agree with. Because Level 5 is niche as fuck.
Let's dissect this.
Capcom--The last 'great things' they've released in the span of ten years are as follows: Okamiden, Ghost Trick, Ace Attourney stuff, Asura's Wrath, Lost Planet, Dragon's Dogma, a rerelease of Jojo's, UMvC3, SF4." Other than that they've been outsourcing their franchises to western developers to make god awful reboots (Bionic Commando, that canceled Strider project) and sequels to boring new IPs (Dead Rising.) Along with worthless iOS ports and LOL DLC. Though these are my preferences.
Konami--absolutely ruining Silent Hill's integrity with the constant outsourcing of their product, releasing MGS titles with little to no marketing thinking it will survive on brand name alone, acquiring Hudson Soft and NOT publishing games THEY'VE FINISHED. (Bonk HD, Bomberman 2012.), aaaaand nothing really new from the developer outside of NeverDead.
Square--Overcharging iOS games in the $15-$30 range, a HORRIBLE launch for FFXIV, nothing out of the JP side outside of more FFXIII milking, and not making a push to get Dragon Quest X to be localized. their EU/US front is fine, it's the JPN side that needs to be fixed.
Level 5 is the only developer that i'd agree with. Because Level 5 is niche as fuck.
I am willing to say if you compare progress made between western games in the last 10 years and Japan's games in the last 10 years you'll agree that Japan is slacking.
Japan is like that really smart kid that started to slack off, everyone is extra hard on him cause they know he could be doing way better.
Japan is like that really smart kid that started to slack off, everyone is extra hard on him cause they know he could be doing way better.
Ok if you can name 5 great japanese games from the past 3 years not including any metal gears or final fantasys Ill be more convinced.
I mean playing nice is fine but sometimes you earn your reputation sometimes you dont.
Are the great japanese games just not getting ported? if so what are they?
I mean playing nice is fine but sometimes you earn your reputation sometimes you dont.
Are the great japanese games just not getting ported? if so what are they?
While both East and West have terrible developers, there's very good reason why the spotlight falls on the East. Those of us that grew up alongside the industry from the 8-bit era onwards fell in love with many of these companies. They gave us many beloved childhood memories. In the 8 to 32 bit era, Western devs just weren't creating as memorable experiences on consoles as Eastern devs. The West was carving out it's niche on the PC mostly back then.
The nostalgia runs thick when I think about Square, Capcom, SEGA, Nintendo, Konami, etc. To see them releasing absolutely inferior products and sending out franchises out to die feels like an afront to my childhood.
The East garnered much goodwill and fan loyalty over the years. Now we feel like we're watching the barn burn and it angers us. We wouldn't care so much if the East hadn't built up our expectations so high during our childhood.
The nostalgia runs thick when I think about Square, Capcom, SEGA, Nintendo, Konami, etc. To see them releasing absolutely inferior products and sending out franchises out to die feels like an afront to my childhood.
The East garnered much goodwill and fan loyalty over the years. Now we feel like we're watching the barn burn and it angers us. We wouldn't care so much if the East hadn't built up our expectations so high during our childhood.
@sluntchop
I have to disagree with you. I haven't enjoyed most of the things that Square has made in a long time, and I can't even think of anything Konami has developed that's been good in the last few years (Neverdead and Silent Hill Downpour were terrible). Level 5 is quite good, but they're the exception, not the trend.
Overall, the trend hasn't been good for Japanese games. There is still some amount of good stuff, but there's been a lot more stagnation than western developers have had.
In short; there may be bad developers on both sides of the Ocean, but the Japanese have had more good developers turning bad. Their good developers are still great, but a lot of them are becoming mediocre or bad.
I have to disagree with you. I haven't enjoyed most of the things that Square has made in a long time, and I can't even think of anything Konami has developed that's been good in the last few years (Neverdead and Silent Hill Downpour were terrible). Level 5 is quite good, but they're the exception, not the trend.
Overall, the trend hasn't been good for Japanese games. There is still some amount of good stuff, but there's been a lot more stagnation than western developers have had.
In short; there may be bad developers on both sides of the Ocean, but the Japanese have had more good developers turning bad. Their good developers are still great, but a lot of them are becoming mediocre or bad.
I can honestly say that, outside of the Platinum/Max Anarchy fiasco, SEGA has been really good to their fans outside of their economic issues. We're getting new IPs, (Binary Domain, Hell Yeah!), quality Sonic titles, FUCKING JET SET RADIO IS RELEVANT NOW, Yakuza, VF, etc.
CyberConnect 2 has been doing well. I hope their successes w/ Asura's Wrath and the Naruto titles, and the upcoming Jojo title does them well for their next .Hack installment.
While I've yet to play TTT2, It's refreshing to see Namco seeing success with their franchises. I just hope this success means better marketing of their products.
Also, Atlus. Atlus has been on a roll.
CyberConnect 2 has been doing well. I hope their successes w/ Asura's Wrath and the Naruto titles, and the upcoming Jojo title does them well for their next .Hack installment.
While I've yet to play TTT2, It's refreshing to see Namco seeing success with their franchises. I just hope this success means better marketing of their products.
Also, Atlus. Atlus has been on a roll.
Infinity Ward making a game that sells 20 million and everyone goes, 'hey, Western developers are amazing!'
I think commercial success doesn't necessarily mean that the game is a quality product.
I think commercial success doesn't necessarily mean that the game is a quality product.
I really love a bunch of modern Japanese games like Persona 4, Rune Factory 3, and Bayonetta. I agree with the Platinum guys. Square Enix may be pushing out the same melodramatic crap every year, but in the West there is no short supply of bland "gritty" shooters.
I think that a lot of innovative Japanese games don't get much notice over here because most Japanese publishers and developers just do not have the kind of budgets that western developers do. In Japan a game is lucky to sell beyond 100,000 units so they have to budget for that and only companies like Nintendo and Square Enix have the cash to increase their budget and count on Western sales.
I think that a lot of innovative Japanese games don't get much notice over here because most Japanese publishers and developers just do not have the kind of budgets that western developers do. In Japan a game is lucky to sell beyond 100,000 units so they have to budget for that and only companies like Nintendo and Square Enix have the cash to increase their budget and count on Western sales.
It really is a sad state of affairs when a guy speaking sense can be considered something special.
But it will be an even sadder state when he gets burned to the ground for this remark, which you just know is going to happen.
But it will be an even sadder state when he gets burned to the ground for this remark, which you just know is going to happen.
Ive had no more issue with square making shit decisions, but still putting out great product, than I have with EA making the decisions it does or anyone else
there is a double standard and inaba was right to call it out
there is a double standard and inaba was right to call it out
From Software is a Japanese developer and they made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. Two of my favorite games of all time. So some Japanese developers still got it.
All games are bad, down with gaming.
Also...
" and sequels to boring new IPs (Dead Rising.) "
Argument rendered null and invalid.
Also...
" and sequels to boring new IPs (Dead Rising.) "
Argument rendered null and invalid.
As most people know I game alot of rpgs. I also game alot on portables like ios, ds, psp, ect
all the greatest games are japanese, sorry.
all the greatest games are japanese, sorry.
Oh my gahaaaaaa. common sense.... too powerful... must read... exaggerations... and sensationalism...
Be still my heart, Platinum is talking about going into PC games.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/25/a-better-bayonetta-platinum-games-considering-pc/
It's only talk at this point, obviously, but surely Inaba knows PC gaming is dead. Mongoloids on the Internet say it is so
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/25/a-better-bayonetta-platinum-games-considering-pc/
It's only talk at this point, obviously, but surely Inaba knows PC gaming is dead. Mongoloids on the Internet say it is so
There is no "Japanese decline."
The reality is that smaller Japanese studios are able to have greater visibility now and the western market has gained serious ground in quality and become just as prolific as Japan in recent years.
Square-Enix, Capcom and Konami have to compete with them now. Nintendo assimilated a more western view decades ago so its hardly surprising that they manage to stay ahead of the game on the quality of their first party pillars.
The reality is that smaller Japanese studios are able to have greater visibility now and the western market has gained serious ground in quality and become just as prolific as Japan in recent years.
Square-Enix, Capcom and Konami have to compete with them now. Nintendo assimilated a more western view decades ago so its hardly surprising that they manage to stay ahead of the game on the quality of their first party pillars.
He uses modern warfare as an example of people praising western development?
Western developers have a few things over Japanese developers, and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these.
1) Anime is not so intertwined with video games
2) japanese developers have not in the least bit experimented with a first person view in games. Which is rather mental, when you take a step back and think about it
3) Western developers strive for choice in their games (they constantly fail at delivering it, but atleast they try) Japanese developers don't.
4) Japanese developers have pretty much ignored online gaming. Again this is pretty mental to ignore such an prominent part of modern technology. The possibilities they are ignoring makes me rather depressed.
Western developers have a few things over Japanese developers, and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these.
1) Anime is not so intertwined with video games
2) japanese developers have not in the least bit experimented with a first person view in games. Which is rather mental, when you take a step back and think about it
3) Western developers strive for choice in their games (they constantly fail at delivering it, but atleast they try) Japanese developers don't.
4) Japanese developers have pretty much ignored online gaming. Again this is pretty mental to ignore such an prominent part of modern technology. The possibilities they are ignoring makes me rather depressed.
Dead Rising is a glorified escort mission covered with the veil of a zombie apocalypse. Yes, you can do alot of stuff in it, but it's boring as shit when you're tied down by a fucking clock and time based story missions.
"Let's just admit that everything in the world is terrible and move on with life, yeah?"
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I love it when these conversations happen its always square, capcom, sega blah, when people should really be looking at falcom, from software, level 5, atlus, ect.
"Ive had no more issue with square making shit decisions,"
#StealthQuotes.
@mxdirector
1)Agreed.
2)one of the philosophies of Japanese development is forming a bond with the character that they've created than, rather, having /you/ be the protaginst.
3) See: Virtually all Castlevania titles.
4)See: P4A, Dragon Quest X, all fighting games released today, Demon's/Dark souls, Armored Core, Binary Domain, Lost Planet, etc...
#StealthQuotes.
@mxdirector
1)Agreed.
2)one of the philosophies of Japanese development is forming a bond with the character that they've created than, rather, having /you/ be the protaginst.
3) See: Virtually all Castlevania titles.
4)See: P4A, Dragon Quest X, all fighting games released today, Demon's/Dark souls, Armored Core, Binary Domain, Lost Planet, etc...
@Hardy: It's easy, if untrue
the big thing about the Japenese decline is the big ones, outside Nintendo, suck. wtf has Konami even done this generation? MGS4, one mediocre Castlevania reboot, some more shitty Silent hill games, and bad ports of classic games. That's it. I think Metal Gear and Castlevania are the only franchises they can rely on nowadays.
Sega has been trying to revive Sonic, at the expense of so many other franchises. They're no longer the company that can deliver Panzer Dragoon, Ecco the Dolphin, Shinobi, Nights, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Comix Zone, Streets of Rage, etc. They do pretty decent Sonic games(unless you count sonic 4, which is ass for a number of reasons) and Yakuza. They're lucky they were able to publish PlatinumGames titles, and with the Bayo2 announcement even that is in question for the future.
Capcom...where do you even begin with Capcom? The on-disc DLC? The $40 dollar upgrades 6 months later? The complete and total dissolution of the Mega Man brand? The total competitive bomb that was Street FigtherxTekken? Turning Dante into a drug addict, and DMC into a 30fps 'cinematic' action game? Dark Void? Bionic Commando Rearmed 2? Operation Raccoon City? The uncontrollable mess that will be RE6, if the demo is any indication? They have a few bright spots the last couple yeares(Dragon's Dogma, UMvc3), but their faults are on display for everyone to see year-in and year-out.
Square Enix...I'm not even gonna go into detail for that one. Can you imagine what a sorry state these guys would be in if they didn't have Enix? To think these guys used to produce classics, and on a yearly basis!
the big thing about the Japenese decline is the big ones, outside Nintendo, suck. wtf has Konami even done this generation? MGS4, one mediocre Castlevania reboot, some more shitty Silent hill games, and bad ports of classic games. That's it. I think Metal Gear and Castlevania are the only franchises they can rely on nowadays.
Sega has been trying to revive Sonic, at the expense of so many other franchises. They're no longer the company that can deliver Panzer Dragoon, Ecco the Dolphin, Shinobi, Nights, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Comix Zone, Streets of Rage, etc. They do pretty decent Sonic games(unless you count sonic 4, which is ass for a number of reasons) and Yakuza. They're lucky they were able to publish PlatinumGames titles, and with the Bayo2 announcement even that is in question for the future.
Capcom...where do you even begin with Capcom? The on-disc DLC? The $40 dollar upgrades 6 months later? The complete and total dissolution of the Mega Man brand? The total competitive bomb that was Street FigtherxTekken? Turning Dante into a drug addict, and DMC into a 30fps 'cinematic' action game? Dark Void? Bionic Commando Rearmed 2? Operation Raccoon City? The uncontrollable mess that will be RE6, if the demo is any indication? They have a few bright spots the last couple yeares(Dragon's Dogma, UMvc3), but their faults are on display for everyone to see year-in and year-out.
Square Enix...I'm not even gonna go into detail for that one. Can you imagine what a sorry state these guys would be in if they didn't have Enix? To think these guys used to produce classics, and on a yearly basis!
@Epic - That's what I've been saying about Sega, too. I'm sad that their 4-game deal with Platinum didn't go well, because the games they've made have been great. Also, Aliens: CM!
@Epic-Kx
2) And what is your point? It's a bad philosophy to have.
3) See "and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these. "
4) See "and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these. "
2) And what is your point? It's a bad philosophy to have.
3) See "and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these. "
4) See "and I am not saying that there are not exceptions to these. "
@mxdirector
2: Not really when J-Devs are more focused to develop a story for the player to experience than to be immersed and involved.
Seeing things from a first person perspective doesn't add any value at all. You just can't see your body. I could have the same experience with Dark Souls in first person if it were in third person.
4) Not every game needs online. Especially when we're in a time when publishers can boast that their titles won't be stand alone single player experiences.
2: Not really when J-Devs are more focused to develop a story for the player to experience than to be immersed and involved.
Seeing things from a first person perspective doesn't add any value at all. You just can't see your body. I could have the same experience with Dark Souls in first person if it were in third person.
4) Not every game needs online. Especially when we're in a time when publishers can boast that their titles won't be stand alone single player experiences.
I can't say I agree with the guy. While there are a few japanese devs around putting ou qualit products, it's no secret that the Japanese game industry, as a whole, pretty much fell off. I mean they can't even make a decent RPG anymore.
@Epic-Kx
You are missing the point. The fact that Japanese developers seem to not experiment too much with these ideas is a problem.
For example, when they have dipped their toes in the waters of online they have produced interesting ideas, dark souls and mind jack are great examples of this. But as a whole industry they fail at really perfecting these ideas.
So the fact that they are resistant to fps, online, choice and stories that avoid anime cliches mean they are not experimenting enough with other things resulting in new experiences. Making their whole industry stale.
You are missing the point. The fact that Japanese developers seem to not experiment too much with these ideas is a problem.
For example, when they have dipped their toes in the waters of online they have produced interesting ideas, dark souls and mind jack are great examples of this. But as a whole industry they fail at really perfecting these ideas.
So the fact that they are resistant to fps, online, choice and stories that avoid anime cliches mean they are not experimenting enough with other things resulting in new experiences. Making their whole industry stale.
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