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Odin Sphere: The Destructoid Review photo

No doubt you've heard plenty about Odin Sphere in the last week, with the gamut of reviews ranging anywhere from ungodly terrible to 100% perfection. As Gamasutra points out, Odin Sphere has proved to be something of an anomaly in gaming review circles. It's a smattering of gameplay from several traditions of the industry's history and, most notably, one of the few sprite-based 2D side-scrollers we're bound to see for a long, long time. So how does this artistic heavyweight stack up for your Destructoid editors? Behold and tremble, dear readers, it's the Destructoid Review!

Before we get started, I got some notes for all y'all. We're changing a few things in our review routine, the most notable of which is our schedule: with any luck, you can look forward to a review a week from Destructoid's dedicated review crew, a crack team of bitter, curmudgeonly gamers hellbent on forcing their tastes and opinions upon you. At present, the squad includes the good Rev. Anthony, DMV, your favorite Linde, Chad Concelmo and Nick Brutal.

Additionally, we've changed up our rating system just a smidge. On top of the standard score to be delivered by each individual editor, we're also offering up our opinions on a buy it/rent it/forget it scale, to give you a better idea as to whether or not a game is worth taking the plunge, or if it merits a little caution -- the kind of notion that might get lost in a simple 1-10 score. We'll also be offering final Destructoid review scores at the end of each write-up, a figure averaged from the editors' individual scores, topped off with some shiny new graphics courtesy of art hero Hushgush.

All that being said, hit the jump and dive into our inaugural trainwreck: Atlus' Odin Sphere!

Brad "DMV" Rice

No one is going to disagree that this game is beautiful -- the way that the characters moved had me spellbound for quite a while, and it still affects me even now when I boot up the game. From that point on, though, it's a series of highs and lows that slowly declines as I went through the game.
 
Combat was interesting to try out in the tutorial, as the game knew that it was, well, a tutorial. After that, though, it just leaves you on your own to figure out how to beat the enemies. Sometimes it's fairly obvious, like with the first boss -- but it's still challenging and fun. Then, there are times when you just have no freakin' clue how to do it and have to go through about two dozen times of trial and error just to beat the boss.
 
Now, why is this? It's because the game is a brawler with RPG elements, except it doesn't know how to be a brawler. There are three fundamental areas in which it fails. First, attack and block are the same button. It makes it nearly impossible to go through a battle relatively unscathed unless you use a combination of hit and run and magic, or are just an incredibly lucky bastard. Second, enemies can attack through your combos, and really take a huge chunk off your HP -- which, of course, you can't block. Third, there's a "POW" meter, which will drain as you attack. If you attack too much, then you sit there, stunned, until it fills up again. This will drain way too easily if there's a large horde of enemies attacking (and there usually is), so it makes it really hard to fight them effectively.
 
The game strings you along in really difficult situations, leaving you to figure out how it wants you to beat a boss. Trial and error usually win out, which is immensely frustrating. The ability to go back to a level once you've beaten it, though, is invaluable, because it's a safe-ground to experiment with making potions and trying out different combat tactics.
 
The story, once I got past just staring at the characters, was pretty bland. To me, it seems like there was a horrible night of sweaty, drunken, and utterly forgettable sex between Norse mythology and utterly generic (and possibly hentai) anime. To me, it's been disappointing so far. Yet, one thing has set me off on a warpath -- the "true ending." Apparently, to get it, you have to beat every battle with an 'S' ranking on hard, make and eat every food, as well as several other requirements. This is utter bullsh*t. I can't stand the idea of multiple endings where I have to jump through hoops left and right to get it. Silent Hill 2 was fine with its multiple endings, but Odin Sphere has gone into the "I want to stab someone" realm of multiple endings.
 
While the game is utterly beautiful, it falls short on gameplay functionality with issues on how the combat system works. If you have the patience to figure out how the game wants you to fight a boss, then you'll enjoy it later on once you've got a hang of everything. A mediocre story and ridiculous requirements for multiple endings hurt the game a lot, though. If Vanillaware can patch up the combat system, and lean more heavily in either an RPG or a brawler direction, I won't hesistate to pick up Odin Sphere 2 to try.

Verdict: Rent it!
Score: 5.5

Rev. Anthony

Everything you need to know about Odin Sphere can be summarized in two bullet points.

1. It is the most beautiful and immersive 2D video game ever made.
2. The "block" and "attack" commands are both controlled by the same button.

Odin Sphere exhibits an astounding depth of thought and attention to detail in every aspect of its aesthetic design   -- which makes it all the more astonishing that the game also possesses so many obvious gameplay and control flaws that almost cripple the entire experience.

First, the good: as my colleagues will no doubt confirm, this game is absolutely gorgeous. The 2D graphics may not seem to be anything new at first – an anime-style character is an anime-style character is an anime-style character – but the fluidity of the animation, the detail of the backgrounds, and the overall storybook feel of the game are enough to reduce any hard-bitten gamer into a state of childlike glee. The graphics are so good, in fact, that they manage to make the trite, derivative story compulsively watchable; thanks to decent voice acting and beautiful graphics, the narrative is far more interesting than it really has any right to be. I'm also a sucker for games with fractured timelines and multiple protagonists, and I'm pleased to say that Odin Sphere delivers on both of those fronts.

And for a while, things seem great: the combat is harder than usual and the controls are a little unresponsive, but it's no big deal – the game directly tells you not to rely only on your beat-'em-up skills, and to fiddle around with creating potions and using special moves to defeat your foes. For a couple of hours, Odin Sphere feels perfect. For the first time in my gaming life, I felt like I was honestly pressured to use everything at my disposal to defeat my enemies, instead of just falling into the typical RPG routine of stocking up on items and mindlessly hacking away.

But then the game gets cheap. And when it gets cheap, you begin to realize just how truly flawed the combat system is, and how horrendously it screws up the flow of the game.

As Dick points out, the player's inability to break an enemy's combo, the stamina bar that prohibits constant attack, and (most irritatingly) the fact that the block and attack commands are mapped to the same button put the player at a horrendous disadvantage. Coming across multiple enemies means that you have to try every combat tactic in the book -- which is cool, in theory -- but nearly every strategy one can use is either totally ineffective (blocking), or punishes the player in an unavoidable way. For example, attacking an enemy from the front with a powerful combo is a useless tactic, because though getting attacked by a baddie will stop your combo, attacking a baddie will have no effect in stopping his. He'll simply stand there for a few seconds and by the time your character is just about to deal the finishing blow of your combo, the enemy will abruptly hit you with an uber-poweful charged attack that there was no way to block or avoid. We take things like this for granted in modern brawler gameplay: if I manage to execute a successful combo on a bad guy, he shouldn't be able to immediately and unavoidably hit me with a powerful charged attack without at least pausing for a few seconds.

Again, these flaws are all but negligible when the game plays fair. But once you get attacked by a dozen enemies at once, all of whom have attacks that reduce you to 50% health with one hit, and when flying, difficult-to-hit elemental sprites freeze you for a good ten seconds (leaving you completely open to attack), you'll find yourself dying over and over and over again (subsequently forcing you to repeatedly sit through lengthy loading screens) thanks to the lackluster combat system.

And yet, sometimes, the game is simply magic. Every once in a while the clouds dissipate, the game starts playing fair, and the player begins to play the game the way it was meant to be played -- by using all different kinds of potions, weapons, and attacks in a beautifully drawn 2D landscape. Given the game's propensity to divide up everything into individually playable chapters sandwiched between story cutscenes, Odin is the perfect game to play in short bursts: play it for a little while, enjoy its beauty, then save and turn it off before the irritating combat mechanics make you want to put it down and never play it again. I'm not exaggerating when I say that, at moments, Odin is pure gaming bliss: it's just a shame that it's so goddamn infuriating the rest of the time.

Verdict: Rent it!
Score: 6.0

Aaron Linde

Lemme tell you, gang: it's really, really difficult to hold Odin Sphere responsible for its faults. It succeeds so well at some of its ambitions -- ambitions that, for the most part, have been altogether abandoned by the industry at large -- that you're almost willing to overlook its shortcomings as a form of reward for its efforts. For creating what is undoubtedly the most beautiful 2D game ever crafted, I want to shower Vanillaware in cash and virgins. If any game is set to revitalize the imaginitive visual style that Koji Igarashi, current producer of the Castlevania series, claims is much too costly to pursue on a console, Odin Sphere is it. In the face of such success, it's a shame that the rest of the game doesn't stack up quite as high as the awe-inspiring visuals.

My colleagues have already talked up many of my pros and cons, so let me dig a little bit deeper into Odin Sphere's most debated feature: the combat. 

Odin Sphere's complications are chiefly rooted in the combination of the various elements of gameplay that it seeks to incorporate. This isn't to say that these elements are implemented altogether poorly -- they just come up a little short. As Brad and Anthony have already mentioned, combat in Odin Sphere has a variety of faults which, originally, I had accepted as the sort of "flavor" of this particular brand of action RPG -- like the percentage charge in Secret of Mana or the ball-breaking difficulty of God Hand. I was getting creamed on a fairly regular basis, so I had to ask myself: is this a failing of design, or do I just suck? It's a little bit of both. 

Odin Sphere implicitly asks the player to abandon some of their expectations of the beat-'em-up genre by incorporating a few choice elements into the works -- namely, the heavy emphasis on item creation and use in combat and the POW bar, which Brad had mentioned earlier. As veterans of the brawler genre, our instincts would lead us into battle with both barrels blazing, slamming that attack button for all we're worth, hurling ourselves into the fray with reckless abandon. This strategy, while useful in brawlers like God Hand and The Red Star, won't get you far in Odin Sphere -- and the game doesn't give you any indication that your approach isn't just off, it's damn useless. It's a hard lesson, and one you'll have to learn on your own, if you're as intimate with the brawler genre as we are.

The revelation goes something like this: near the end of the game's first main storyline, Gwendolyn's saga, it finally occured to me that this isn't so much a brawler wrapped in an RPG; it's an RPG wrapped in a brawler. I slowed my onslaught tried to pay attention to the movements and tells of the enemy sprites -- anything to help me anticipate their attacks. I planned my assaults, worked in a divide-and-conquer strategy, and suddenly the combat became much less frustrating. Sure, the enemy could still bust up my combos with a well-timed strike, but with a bit of effort, I found that I could prevent them from ever getting an opportunity. 

Once you get the swing of things, Odin Sphere proves to be a spectacular game. But a game that expects you to conform so rigidly to a particular style of play just to succeed -- hell, just to avoid mind-numbing frustration -- is bound to lose points in anybody's book, especially mine. I like games that offer myriad paths to victory, multiple ways to play. There are several ways to play Odin Sphere, but only a few of them will keep you from breaking the game in half.  

At its heart, Odin Sphere is an action RPG that suffers from a crippling identity crisis. It aspires to be a complex, inventory-driven RPG while also shooting for the halcyon realm of quality beat-'em-up. In theory the combination of these elements sound quite tantalizing, and in practice -- well, it is. It just takes a little more time and effort to get engaged than you might originally suspect. Vanillaware had a particular brand of gamer in mind when they made this game -- should you submit to their expectations, Odin Sphere should prove an enjoyable and worthwhile experience.

Verdict: Rent it!
Score: 7.0

Destructoid Review Final Verdict

Final Score: 6.2


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78 comments | showing # 1 to 50

brainderailment's Avatar
brainderailment at 05/26/2007 14:26
I guess this is a PS2 game considering the tag^.
king3vbo's Avatar
king3vbo at 05/26/2007 14:44
as much as I respect you guys' opinions, I'm going to have to disagree. Odin Sphere came from fedex late last nite, and I played it nonstop. Though yes, the combat is a little frustrating, the immersion factor is huge. For some reason I just cant put the controller down, its so much fun
Kia's Avatar
Kia at 05/26/2007 14:51
Wow...just...wow. No offense, but you guys just all simply have to suck at brawlers. Hell, I'm not even that good at them, but Odin Sphere is not proving overly "impossible" or "cheap" at all.

Gamers these days are so used to having everything handed to them on a platter that when something remotely difficult comes up, or something that is mildly inconveniencing, they whine and bitch and moan as if they deserve to just get tossed everything.

If you guys can't handle Odin Sphere, maybe you should go back to easy mode. I started the game on Hard and I haven't even died yet. I've come close, but all it takes is a tiny bit of intelligence to actually realize what you're supposed to do.

You do NOT rush in and take on massive groups at a time, you do NOT swing wildly. You watch a little, learn a boss' pattern, and exploit it after you realize what's going on. I have progressed very quickly after realizing the weak points and times to attack for several bosses, and I am quite a good ways into the game myself.

As for the POW issues, it's called stamina, guys. What kind of person can realistically attack non-stop? You want that, go play Dynasty Warriors, it might be mindless enough for you to enjoy it.

But Odin Sphere is a thinking game, a tactical brawler. If you can't understand that, then certainly don't review it and call it out on supposed "faults."

Now, admittedly, the requirements for the best ending are ludicrous, but saying the story is poor? Hardly.
branflakesinmilk's Avatar
branflakesinmilk at 05/26/2007 14:58
My opinion is right. You're opinion is wrong.
Tron Knotts's Avatar
Tron Knotts at 05/26/2007 15:07
I'm going to buy the game today.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 05/26/2007 15:11
Hmm.... so this is a game with amazing graphics but ultimately lackluster to outright crappy gameplay, you say? Hmm.... since I'd rather play a good game than look at pretty pictures, I think I'll pass for now.

Then again, I've not really agreed all that closely with many of the reviews posted here on Destructoid (ever since the infamous 4.0 for Zelda), so forgive me if I decide to take what some of you guys say with a large grain of salt.

I was originally heartened by the fact that Tycho and Gabe both seemed to enjoy it, and I've found that I usually tend to agree with their taste for games at least 80 to 90% of the time. Usually Tycho more than Gabe, but they seem to be in agreement here.

For now, at least, this game is a "if I see it in a bargain bin somewhere in the future I might pick it up, but I have too many other games I'm interested to go out of my way for this one at the moment" kind of game.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 15:14
Psst! Kia!

Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 15:18
Im OK, definitely give it a rent. Odin Sphere is a game that will definitely appeal to a particular stock of gamers -- guys like me, for the most part -- but only after a bit of trying. Like I said, you've gotta shed your expectations of the brawler aspect of the game, if not before playing then definitely within the first few hours, lest you hurl the controller at the TV in frustration. Once you get past that, everything comes up Milhouse.
Joseph Leray's Avatar
Joseph Leray at 05/26/2007 15:31
I'm pretty sure that anybody who mentions that fucking Zelda review again should be permabanned.

Immediately.

We get it! Are we still talking about it 3 months later?

Bah humbug!

That being said ... good write-up guys. If ever get some free time, I plan on checking Odin Sphere out, despite its faults.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 05/26/2007 15:31
I very, very rarely rent games these days.... but I may make an exception for this one. It does look pretty interesting.
Kia's Avatar
Kia at 05/26/2007 15:38
Aaron: Thank you, so very much, for becoming Dtoid writer #4 that can't seem to provide a half-intelligent and/or decent reply to anyone slightly disagreeing with them.

Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 05/26/2007 15:43
@Orcist

First impressions and all that, and, unfortunately, what I've seen since then when it comes to Destructoid reviews (some of them, at least) has not changed that impression much for the better, for the most part. Everything they do is going to be at least somewhat colored by what has come before it. It would ridiculous to think this would not be the case.

By the way, I just love knee-jerk reactions to immediately call for bans of things we don't like or agree with. Sounds kind of familiar, wouldn't you say? I, personally, prefer self-moderation, but many people simply aren't capable of it, apparently. If they were, 90% of these infantile flame-wars would not happen. But even then, it would still take something incredibly egregious before I'd start calling for bans.
Mozgus's Avatar
Mozgus at 05/26/2007 15:46
For those who don't know, this is a sequel of sorts to Princess Crown on Sega Saturn. Look up some videos. It's one of the prettiest 2D games of the 32-bit generation.
TheStripe's Avatar
TheStripe at 05/26/2007 15:47
The rest of the gaming world: Zelda:TP = GotY

D-Toid: Zelda:TP = Almost shovelware

"Independent" doesn't mean "reactionary."
branflakesinmilk's Avatar
branflakesinmilk at 05/26/2007 16:01
aaron-- did you ever play chulip?
Mabec's Avatar
Mabec at 05/26/2007 16:07
What the... Gametrailers.com gave it a 9... who am i gonna belive now?
Kannaya's Avatar
Kannaya at 05/26/2007 16:08
I think I will wait a couple months and buy it used. It just looks so pretty!
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 16:12
Kia, I'm totally cool with disagreement. But your objections are more or less outlined in my portion of the review -- like you said, it's not a game that you can treat as a run-of-the-mill brawler with RPG elements. Rather, it requires an entirely fresh approach to the genre.

That you so mightily swung these talking points in our face despite my already voicing most of 'em made me think that you didn't read what I wrote. Just sayin', that's all.
boxhound's Avatar
boxhound at 05/26/2007 16:12
I have to agree with the reviewers. This game is indeed beautiful looking, but it's not the end all be all PS2 title.

Granted I think Atlus could have cleaned up the controls and other little aspects of the game to give it a wider audience.

It's a niche game, it's not meant for everyone.
GuitarAtomik's Avatar
GuitarAtomik at 05/26/2007 16:13
I'm playing this game right now and I'm loving it. All your points are valid though and the game isn't perfect. But once you start playing the game like it's meant to be played (and that's probably a flaw) it's easy to look past the faults and enjoy it.

If nothing else people should rent this game just to experience it and then decide if you're able to enjoy it.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 16:13
Branflakes, I never got around to it. My GameStop didn't bother ordering any because there were no preorders, and I haven't seen a copy in the flesh since then. I ought to dig up a copy on eBay or somesuch -- it's been on my list of stuff to play.
GuitarAtomik's Avatar
GuitarAtomik at 05/26/2007 16:13
And yes, SHEEP PLANTS!
jimstyle's Avatar
jimstyle at 05/26/2007 16:15
First things first:
@ Kia: Disagreeing slightly is one thing, but to say that they must suck at brawlers, and that it only takes a little bit of intelligence to not die seems to be asking for confrontation.

On to other matters: I noticed that all of the reviews referenced those of the other authors, and that in the end everyone had very similar things to say. Are you working on these together, and if so, do you think that may be influencing your opinion at all? Just a thought.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 16:22
Jim, it just sorta worked out that way. I wrote mine after receiving theirs, so rather than restate many of the same points, I decided to focus on how I came to appreciate Odin Sphere's combat in the midst of some of the game's inconsistencies, as explored in the other two portions of the review.

As far as influencing the opinions of eachother, though, I'd like to think not. Hell, I've been trying to make Anthony like me for months -- I've tried chocolates, roses, and clever greeting cards with glitter sprinkled inside. No go. At this point it's probably safe to say that coloring my review of a game to match his perspective probably wouldn't win me any points, either.

But a boy can dream, right? * ~ le sigh ~ *
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 16:27
And for the record, when the hell did 7.0 start meaning "bad"?
Mister Disco's Avatar
Mister Disco at 05/26/2007 16:32
Vanillaware had a particular brand of gamer in mind when they made this game

Clearly, this was me. I feel, while playing it, right down to the sheer challenge of some situations the game presents me with, that some fairy came in the night and plucked my action RPG dreams out of my head, and gave them form.

It's a shame the game isn't for everyone, but that's okay. I'll settle for it just being for me.
Agent's Avatar
Agent at 05/26/2007 16:32
its a great game, it has a certain style thats appeals to those who like artwork and the old fashion stuff i guess. i bought and love it but thats just me.
fromagex's Avatar
fromagex at 05/26/2007 16:57
its definitely not worth 40 bucks at this point. ill buy it after a price drop. id much rather play rogue galaxy
Anthony Burch's Avatar
Anthony Burch at 05/26/2007 17:00
Aaron, maybe if you give me full, immutable dibs on David Tennant, then I'll like you.

Maybe.

And in response to everyone else:
It's important to note that, since Destructoid grades much harder than other game sites, these are good scores. All of us agreed that the game was above average -- none of us outright disliked it.

I'm afraid I'll be hearing about the 4.0 Zelda review until the end of time, but the point is this -- when we review something that is above five, that is a good, above-average game. Below 5 is a subpar game. A 4-rated game is somewhat subaverage. Sooner or later, you guys are gonna have to realize that we simply don't use the number system the way others do: given this new review team and system, we're going to use the ENTIRE 1-10 scale and not just use 6-10 like most sites do.

The review system is a-changin. We're using 1-10 in the way it oughtta be used. Adjust your expectations accordingly.
Netik09's Avatar
Netik09 at 05/26/2007 17:05
I think what Reverend Anthony is trying to say is:

Everyone needs to STFUAJPG.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 17:14


This is not how it should be.
Scape's Avatar
Scape at 05/26/2007 17:15
What about the slowdown that everyone has been talking about with this game?

People have said that the slowdown is so bad it makes the game next to unplayable.

I can handle crazy difficulty, but if the game starts slowing down then that is what would really piss me off.
Snaileb 's Avatar
Snaileb at 05/26/2007 17:16
haha @ Rev & Aaron

I like how destructoid has their editors answer the commentors questions or tripes about the reviews, also how the get burned for giving strict reviews.

But then most people complain that other reviewers give to much slack to their article, and it gives mixed feelings about the game.

No mixed feelings here though, right? If you're into that genre buy it, if not rent it. I'll rent it, but I lol @ Kia's "Wow you guys must suck @ brawlers comment". Good read when you're bored on a Saturday.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 17:19
Scape, it gets bad, but it happens infrequently. Battles with the Queen of the netherworld are pretty brutal in terms of slowdown due to the sheer amount of stuff on screen. The Queen herself is pretty damn huge and a variety of little bastard ghosts are constantly spawning around her. There are evil tentacle-vine thingies growing out of the ground and more than once you'll have to watch the Queen get all spider-like and thrust big spiky-things at you.

Mind, these are all technical terms.

A handful of other battles get pretty sticky in terms of slowdown, but they're in the minority. When it happens, though, you'll definitely notice.
Snaileb 's Avatar
Snaileb at 05/26/2007 17:19
Wow nm, never allow me to comment on a Sat again. Stupid drunken dtoid typos.

Edit button!
dox's Avatar
dox at 05/26/2007 17:20
this game is getting alot of different reviews, though most of them positive except those that go the other extreme. though the positve reviews have even compared it, as far as 2d sidescollers, to symphony of the night, which is a huge compliment to even be mentioned in the same catagory.

also this is an atlus game, most atlus published games only get a single production run and so once they are gone they are usually gone for good. i buy atlus published games just for the investment of it because most of them even used are eventually worth the full retail price or more. so don't expect to find this in a bargain bin or at a reduced price. it came out at $40 and the game is supposed to take over 40 hours to beat, seems like a good deal right now to me, in fact i just got it today.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 05/26/2007 17:21
This is another example of why I feel you guys should just do away with the numbering system altogether and simply let the reviews speak for themselves.
Aaron Linde's Avatar
Aaron Linde at 05/26/2007 17:25
I'd certainly agree, Im OK, were it not that we're all hellbent on working some change into the standard. 6-7 shouldn't mean bottom of the barrel, it should mean above-average, dag nabbit.
Tron Knotts's Avatar
Tron Knotts at 05/26/2007 17:50
Yeah, you guys listen to Dox.

It a 2D game, published by Atlus, late in the PS2's life cycle. It will more likely end up costing $120 on ebay five years from now, not $10 in the bargin bin.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar
Mxyzptlk at 05/26/2007 18:06
Another Destructoid Review, another handful of people butthurt because a game they enjoyed didn't get the arbitrary numeric score they think it should have received...
Necros's Avatar
Necros at 05/26/2007 18:15
@ Rev and Linde: I completely support the full use of the 1-10 scale. 1UP's been pretty much the only other major site that is willing to do so, and I'm tired of people quarreling over silly things like how much better GTA: San Andreas is compared to Halo 2 when IGN gave them 9.9 and 9.8 respectively. If you can keep your scores to increments of .5, I think everything should be good.

But seriously, Zelda doesn't deserve a 4. =P
branflakesinmilk's Avatar
branflakesinmilk at 05/26/2007 18:27
aaron--one more thing....make sure you pick up taito legends 2 if you haven't already. There is a good handful of great shmups and it's only 20 bucks.
bleep's Avatar
bleep at 05/26/2007 18:34
I like the 1-2 scale.
1 if you ever played it
2 if you didn't
twentythoughts's Avatar
twentythoughts at 05/26/2007 19:30
The comments and reviews here remind me of Vagrant Stories. That game got awesome reviews all over, but frustrated some gamers like me, who just couldn't get into the game mechanics enough to enjoy it. Those who went into the game without a FAQ, a predetermined plan on how they'd upgrade their weapons, or a hell of a lot of patience for grinding and trying-and-failing, ended up with a game where you encounter this critter that might be a dragon or it might be a beast but it's vulnerable to spears and not swords so your apparently dragon-killing glaive and beast-killing javelin both do 1-2 damage.

Seriously. I made a weapon that was apparently more effective against a certain type of monster than the one I forged it from, but it did less damage to anything than the weapon that came before it. That's when I gave up.
Joseph Leray's Avatar
Joseph Leray at 05/26/2007 19:40
@I'm OK --

I guess I should clarify that I don't *really* want to permaban you. I was just using hyperbole to express my discontent. It's not really that my commnents were directed at you - you were just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I do tend to react negatively to the mention of the score because it shifts the focus from actually reading the article.

*huggles*
Joseph Leray's Avatar
Joseph Leray at 05/26/2007 19:41
@twentythoughts --

I totally agree with you about Vagrant Story. It's ambitious as hell, but the game mechanics are just too much.
Tron Knotts's Avatar
Tron Knotts at 05/26/2007 20:39
Just went out to buy the game, it was sold out at 2 gamestops, and the third only had one left.
dox's Avatar
dox at 05/26/2007 20:46
i have seen reports that gamestops and ebgames have only received 2 or 3 copies and that included a pre order at one store. atlus published games always sell pretty fast and because they don't usually do but one shipment and never do a second production run the games usulally sell used at high price.

i have missed out on some of there games because of this kind of thing, and because of the high price of them used i just never spring for them and miss out on the game completely. glad i found a copy of this one, plus its a great game and it looks beautiful, who says 2d is dead.
Diamondblade's Avatar
Diamondblade at 05/26/2007 20:58
@Kia

I love you Kia, I was about to post exactly what you posted each time you posted, i'm glad someone knows what their talking about here.

Oh well, at least Nex is still round.
Anthony Burch's Avatar
Anthony Burch at 05/26/2007 21:34
I'm going to go ahead and say that Kia is either lying about never having died on Hard, or she's only been playing for about an hour.

And here's why.

It doesn't technically have a name, but for all intents and purposes, I'm going to call it the jump smash. It's a combat ability that most all of the bosses and minibosses in the game possess. It is a move where the enemy jumps quickly into the air, disappearing offscreen, and after half a second comes plummeting to the ground, usually on top of the player, taking away at least 1/5 of the player's damage.

Now, this may not seem so bad -- 1/5 isn't much, right? Surely you can block it, or avoid it, or keep on the offensive so the baddie has no chance to use the attack, right?

Well, no. You can't do any of those things. You can't block because if you've just attacked, it takes a good second and a half for the game to realize that you are holding the square button and not just pressing it, by which time the enemy has already completed the attack. You can't keep on the offensive because not only do your attacks not interrupt enemy combos (though, as mentioned before, their attacks interrupt yours), but it only takes about two complete seconds for the baddie to charge the jump smash attack and then execute it. Before you have a chance to attack the enemy, the enemy has already finished the attack. You can't dodge the jump smash because if you were attacking before the baddie began his attack animation, then you have to wait for the attack to finish, and then try to move somewhere -- yet such attempts remain fruitless, because after jumping offscreen, the baddie can land and smash anywhere he pleases within a certain proximity of where he first started the attack.

The absolute ONLY way to not get hit by this attack is to either run up to the enemy, attack him once, and run away. There's no way whatsoever to tell when the enemy will use this attack and there's no way to avoid it after you've hit him more than twice -- as a result, you are forced to play like a complete pansy, running and hitting and running and hitting, or simply rely on luck, dealing out multiple combos whilst fervently praying that the enemy doesn't randomly decide to use the jumpsmash.

Now, is that "tactical?" It's one thing to make a boss difficult, and force you to memorize his patterns. It's quite another to actively punish the player for even attempting to attack an enemy -- the jumpsmash takes away about 1/5 of your health, but it's not too much to ask for an attack that can at least be defended against in some way. Just because you die easily, the enemies attack cheaply, and you have a stamina bar doesn't immediately forgive all of the obvious, horrific flaws that Odin Sphere possesses. The game forces you to play a certain way, but even this method of play is flawed and frequently unsatisfying.

And that said, it's also absurdly inconsistent: while enemies like the Unicorn Knights (who use the jump smash attack) must be carefully watched and attacked at the perfect moment, full-blown bosses like Lord Brigan or Odette, Queen of Death can be easily defeated with a simple psyphr power (2x attack power) and the mindless button-mashing that Kia seems to rail against so heavily.

Like it or not, the combat is flawed. The game wants the player to fight in a specific way, and sometimes that way works, but that doesn't exAcuse the numerous, obvious, undeniable problems in the combat system. All the pretentious BS comments in the world aren't gonna change that.
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