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I think that when you're talking about the importance of story, you have to take genre into consideration. For instance, Tetris has never needed a story to be an amazingly fun game, if you're doing a puzzle game, you don't really need a story to be compelling. However, if you try doing an RPG without a story, you'll only be appealing to a handful of gamers. Most people need a good story to keep them going in an RPG.
A computer game developer, releasing an RPG in the near future, says Stories in games isn't that important?
I'm skipping this one.
If the story in an RPG doesn't work, the game is worthless.
Also, Chris Avellone, of KOTOR2 fame? I guess it's fair to say that he's not bothered if he releases a game with a butchered story then.
I'm skipping this one.
If the story in an RPG doesn't work, the game is worthless.
Also, Chris Avellone, of KOTOR2 fame? I guess it's fair to say that he's not bothered if he releases a game with a butchered story then.
I agree with the man. I don't think he's saying story isn't important, he is just stressing how fluid the player should be taking in the story. I would much prefer a game that he is describing whose exposition takes place WHILE you play as opposed to "no wait hold on, before you fight this guy let me show you a 2 minute cut-scene". Something like Half-Life keeps the ball rolling and doesn't need to constantly pause your input in order to let you know what is going on.
There have been way too many times where the music swells and the protagonist runs into a room to be greeted with a cutscene or a long dialogue exchange explaining what you already know. It is basically blue balls.
There have been way too many times where the music swells and the protagonist runs into a room to be greeted with a cutscene or a long dialogue exchange explaining what you already know. It is basically blue balls.
I'll be the exception to the 'RPG = Story' rule. I've played many an RPG and I've never, ever paid any attention to the story. I have absolutely no clue as to what happened in FF7,8,9 and 10, or any of the dozens of JRPG (type) games I loved on the PS1 or 2.
In fact, most games I play, I usually skip all the cut scenes.
If the story isn't being told to me while I play, I don't care and won't stop to find out if I have the choice.
Integrate it, or (I'll) forget it.
I think Fallout 3 is a good example of how an RPG can have a story without me having to watch a bazillion cut scenes.
In fact, most games I play, I usually skip all the cut scenes.
If the story isn't being told to me while I play, I don't care and won't stop to find out if I have the choice.
Integrate it, or (I'll) forget it.
I think Fallout 3 is a good example of how an RPG can have a story without me having to watch a bazillion cut scenes.
Genre makes a difference, but even with RPGs (at least western ones), story always takes a back seat. Why? Because of that buzzword called "player choice".
You can't have a story on the same level as a great novel if your story is effectively a choose-your-own-adventure book. If the game lets you make your own decisions with regards to so-called moral choices and the like, you are influencing the story as you go, in which case the overarching narrative is always going to be weaker.
A great story is hardly ever "created by committee", it's usually the work of a single inspired author. But games aren't made like that. When a story is forced to fit around a bunch of interactive action scenes, what you end up with is a Michael Bay movie. And yet, those interactive moments are essential to keeping the game entertaining. Without them, you might as well be watching a movie.
Essentially, story is a secondary element, in ALL genres. The more linear a game, the easier it is to have a quality narrative, but you are virtually always forcing the author to come up with excuses for nonstop action scenes.
You can't have a story on the same level as a great novel if your story is effectively a choose-your-own-adventure book. If the game lets you make your own decisions with regards to so-called moral choices and the like, you are influencing the story as you go, in which case the overarching narrative is always going to be weaker.
A great story is hardly ever "created by committee", it's usually the work of a single inspired author. But games aren't made like that. When a story is forced to fit around a bunch of interactive action scenes, what you end up with is a Michael Bay movie. And yet, those interactive moments are essential to keeping the game entertaining. Without them, you might as well be watching a movie.
Essentially, story is a secondary element, in ALL genres. The more linear a game, the easier it is to have a quality narrative, but you are virtually always forcing the author to come up with excuses for nonstop action scenes.
I think the perspective he is offering is very dependent on the role he finds himself working, and by extension the area he wants to work on. People in different departments would have their own unique take on the issue.
Story is always important. Strip it down and the majority of what we call entertainment is storytelling. Why else play over 100 hours of FFXII. But you know, for video games they gotta space it out so the game doesn't become a passive experience with just a few action sequences. I don't think we've reached the point where people are willing to pay $60 to play an interactive CG movie.
they're both wrong. the best games have story told THROUGH good gameplay. i'm not going to fumble with broken controls and messed up bullet physics to get to the next amazing cutscene. and the cutscene method just doesn't make sense to me "oh boy I can't wait until the game takes control away from me for the purpose of forwarding the story!" Ever heard someone say that? didn't think so.
Story in gaming has become a it like a salad on the side of a steak, when it should be the peppered sauce on top of it.
...In less delicious terms, story has become less and less focused on. Most mainstream titles seem to push either a similar story with a few name changes and gameplay mechanics, while it could easily become a lot better if it had a more original one. I.E Moar story please, less steak.
...Mmm...
...In less delicious terms, story has become less and less focused on. Most mainstream titles seem to push either a similar story with a few name changes and gameplay mechanics, while it could easily become a lot better if it had a more original one. I.E Moar story please, less steak.
...Mmm...
No matter how good the story is I'm not playing it if the gameplay is borderline depressing. Story is there to make us give a hoot about why we're playing. Gameplay is there to actually play. Not to say I enjoy good gameplay and horrible story but I would rather a game isterest me with a decent storyline while having some cool gameplay.
Do, don't show. That's the key point for story in games.
Just like it's: "Show, don't tell" for movies.
Just like it's: "Show, don't tell" for movies.
@ Aurian:
KOTOR 2 had a great story. Unfinished, but the first 2/3 were brilliant. Not Obsidians fault either, Lucasarts made them change release date from Feb '05 to Nov '04.
Anyway, Avellones point is right on, he means expositin type storytelling isn't the most important thing.
KOTOR 2 had a great story. Unfinished, but the first 2/3 were brilliant. Not Obsidians fault either, Lucasarts made them change release date from Feb '05 to Nov '04.
Anyway, Avellones point is right on, he means expositin type storytelling isn't the most important thing.
It's a shame to me that story usually plays third (or fourth, or tenth) fiddle to graphics and giblet count. Video games are one of the few interactive storytelling mediums around, so make the story interactive. If the only way story is going to be told is in noninteractive cutscenes (coughMGScough), just make a movie. If I want my action and my story to be completely separated I'll go watch a porno.
The whole entire gimmick of Obsidian is a branching story with different story element at each forking path. So story elements for Obisidan is VERY important, because that's all Obsidian's got.
I think it is a mistake to boil his statements down to "story isn't important." He makes it clear that this is not his point. Story simply isn't important for a game to be designed well and enjoyable. Story is merely important as context and for motivation. Some games don't necessarily need this as much as others.
I agree that too many games have stories that are absorbed passively as opposed to being integrated into gameplay. It is possible that I have just played too many games, but I find myself more annoyed at cutscenes than in the past. I don't want to stop playing to watch a movie, especially if it is a bad one.
I agree that too many games have stories that are absorbed passively as opposed to being integrated into gameplay. It is possible that I have just played too many games, but I find myself more annoyed at cutscenes than in the past. I don't want to stop playing to watch a movie, especially if it is a bad one.
He makes a very good point. The gameplay cannot be seperate from the story. Just like how drwings compliment a graphic novel; or cinematography compliments a film. The gameplay and story should be one in the same.
@Aurain
Yeah Chris Avellone who created one of the greatest RPGs ever released, with some of the greatest writing and story ever told.
Planescape: Torment. Also Avellone created the New Reno block of Fallout 2 which most people thing was absolutely brilliant.
So yeah judging a man by one game is just plain ignorance.
Yeah Chris Avellone who created one of the greatest RPGs ever released, with some of the greatest writing and story ever told.
Planescape: Torment. Also Avellone created the New Reno block of Fallout 2 which most people thing was absolutely brilliant.
So yeah judging a man by one game is just plain ignorance.
I think the man has his points. Take, for example, any Mario platformer. The only reason there are the story elements in Mario games is to set up the 'Rescue the Princess' aspect.
Or the first 3 Metroid games. The story exists at the beginning to set up the "Kill all the Bad Guys and Monsters" reason for the game.
These are two series that are GREAT in spite of their stories, not because of them.
Now look at Mass Effect. The gameplay is terrible. The controls are clunky, the inventory system is atrocious, and your teammates are useless except to fill in the powers that your main character doesn't have. And yet people still love it, myself included. Bioware managed to create a universe that compels me to keep playing the game, at least until it ended. After that, I couldn't play another 5 minutes of it.
This is a game that is good despite it's gameplay.
Or the first 3 Metroid games. The story exists at the beginning to set up the "Kill all the Bad Guys and Monsters" reason for the game.
These are two series that are GREAT in spite of their stories, not because of them.
Now look at Mass Effect. The gameplay is terrible. The controls are clunky, the inventory system is atrocious, and your teammates are useless except to fill in the powers that your main character doesn't have. And yet people still love it, myself included. Bioware managed to create a universe that compels me to keep playing the game, at least until it ended. After that, I couldn't play another 5 minutes of it.
This is a game that is good despite it's gameplay.
pssshh thats ridiculous. Of course story is important.
This is just obsidian saying pre-launch "Story isnt important"
Then when it releases, we realize "Hey, what the hell, the story here sucks"
Then we give them hell for having a crappy story and they respond "Oh but wait, we said earlier that we don't need a GREAT story"
excuses excuses...
This is just obsidian saying pre-launch "Story isnt important"
Then when it releases, we realize "Hey, what the hell, the story here sucks"
Then we give them hell for having a crappy story and they respond "Oh but wait, we said earlier that we don't need a GREAT story"
excuses excuses...
i have a lot of trust in Avellone - played a number of the games he's had a strong hand in writing/designing.
you need to keep this in mind, when reading Avellone's comments: he's speaking from the perspective of a western rpg maker. a strong desire amongst fans of this genre is, often, for substantial choices and consequences, and an integration of the gameplay with the story/dialogue. it's precisely these things which make this genre so appealing to many - due to these things, the designer tends to be *required* to meld gameplay and story to a fairly large degree. look at a game like Planescape: Torment, for instance - a large portion of the game, you'll be reading a lot of text. but there are various conversation chioces you can make during a conversation which can have meaningful effect... your stats come into play, possibly opening up new dialogue options (raising your Intelligence is always recommended in these sorts of games). and, of course, the game gives you the freedom to explore the world more fluidly and advance your main quest or subquests in multiple ways.
... eh, anyway. as a side note - i'm not sure why KOTOR2 gets such flak, particularly for the later parts of the game... frankly, i rarely see a game that doesnt end in a bit of a mess (same goes for lots of movies, too, for that matter). what particularly baffles me is how people let the first KOTOR off the hook, when *that* game had substantially worse writing (not *terrible* writing, but nowhere near as interesting, and generally lacking much of the insight that was evident in the second game), and it hardly ended any better than KOTOR2 did... and, as far as the ENDING of the two games - KOTOR1 shows a short cinema which (at least, for the light-side ending, havent seen the dark-side) directly rips off the end of Star Wars: A New Hope. KOTOR2's ending actually allowed you to step to the side, and interactively ask a number of questions to tie up many of the loose threads - something that games NEVER do! i'm not trying to argue that there werent a number of unfortunate loose ends that came about due to the project being rushed in the end, but i honestly fail to see how most *other* games did things better.
Im OK: KOTOR2 was Obsidian's first game - since then, they've made Neverwinter Nights 2 (how good it was depends on who you're talking to, though most agree that the engine that the game uses is too old and clunky), and two expansions: Mask of the Betrayer (which is widely regarded as an excellent work, akin to a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment) and Storm of Zehir (personally, i think it had some things going for it, but it failed to keep my attention. there wasnt so much of a focus on telling a story in that one, and iirc, Avellone didnt directly have anything to do with it).
you need to keep this in mind, when reading Avellone's comments: he's speaking from the perspective of a western rpg maker. a strong desire amongst fans of this genre is, often, for substantial choices and consequences, and an integration of the gameplay with the story/dialogue. it's precisely these things which make this genre so appealing to many - due to these things, the designer tends to be *required* to meld gameplay and story to a fairly large degree. look at a game like Planescape: Torment, for instance - a large portion of the game, you'll be reading a lot of text. but there are various conversation chioces you can make during a conversation which can have meaningful effect... your stats come into play, possibly opening up new dialogue options (raising your Intelligence is always recommended in these sorts of games). and, of course, the game gives you the freedom to explore the world more fluidly and advance your main quest or subquests in multiple ways.
... eh, anyway. as a side note - i'm not sure why KOTOR2 gets such flak, particularly for the later parts of the game... frankly, i rarely see a game that doesnt end in a bit of a mess (same goes for lots of movies, too, for that matter). what particularly baffles me is how people let the first KOTOR off the hook, when *that* game had substantially worse writing (not *terrible* writing, but nowhere near as interesting, and generally lacking much of the insight that was evident in the second game), and it hardly ended any better than KOTOR2 did... and, as far as the ENDING of the two games - KOTOR1 shows a short cinema which (at least, for the light-side ending, havent seen the dark-side) directly rips off the end of Star Wars: A New Hope. KOTOR2's ending actually allowed you to step to the side, and interactively ask a number of questions to tie up many of the loose threads - something that games NEVER do! i'm not trying to argue that there werent a number of unfortunate loose ends that came about due to the project being rushed in the end, but i honestly fail to see how most *other* games did things better.
Im OK: KOTOR2 was Obsidian's first game - since then, they've made Neverwinter Nights 2 (how good it was depends on who you're talking to, though most agree that the engine that the game uses is too old and clunky), and two expansions: Mask of the Betrayer (which is widely regarded as an excellent work, akin to a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment) and Storm of Zehir (personally, i think it had some things going for it, but it failed to keep my attention. there wasnt so much of a focus on telling a story in that one, and iirc, Avellone didnt directly have anything to do with it).
I'm totally supportive of Avellone's point of view that the story should be sewn together with the game system as much as possible. It will only improve the videogame universe as a whole, with more and more designers achieving this current challenge.
I love when people don't read an article, but comment on the title.
You people must be real bright bulbs...
Avellone is one of the best writers in the RPG biz. Planescape
Torment gushes with his greatness, not to mention Fallout 2(do
you kids know of it even?).As for Kotor 2. The writing is top notch,
better than Kotor 1, but it was rushed by Lucasarts. The game has
a myriad of bugs, how the heck can the writing be "buggy"?!
You people must be real bright bulbs...
Avellone is one of the best writers in the RPG biz. Planescape
Torment gushes with his greatness, not to mention Fallout 2(do
you kids know of it even?).As for Kotor 2. The writing is top notch,
better than Kotor 1, but it was rushed by Lucasarts. The game has
a myriad of bugs, how the heck can the writing be "buggy"?!
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