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Some nice perspective on how to tweak the Zelda "formula" without totally changing it into something else. Good first blog, looking forward to your next one. :)
Nintendo follows a strict, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," policy. I think this figures so primarily in the Zelda series because Nintendo has thrived so heavily on nostalgia for so long. However, like Mario, Link is an iconic character, more a template than anything. Each game is sortof a new adventure for them to go on.
I disagree with your assertion on Wind Waker. I found the game by and large to be bland, especially that auction house. Wind Waker was far too self referential, far too dependent on adding in items just because an item needed to be added in a dungeon at x time. It was a Zelda game trying too hard to be a Zelda game. Twilight Princess reigned this in to some degree. It will remain to be seen if the upcoming title for the Wii works with the potentials of the consol rather than its shortcomings.
I disagree with your assertion on Wind Waker. I found the game by and large to be bland, especially that auction house. Wind Waker was far too self referential, far too dependent on adding in items just because an item needed to be added in a dungeon at x time. It was a Zelda game trying too hard to be a Zelda game. Twilight Princess reigned this in to some degree. It will remain to be seen if the upcoming title for the Wii works with the potentials of the consol rather than its shortcomings.
@Khazer222
I agree with you about Wind Waker, but my point was about the ruppee, they tried to put some use to it other than buying items I would gain for free or that I wouldn't need that much. In Twilight Princess the Magic Armor itsn't essential for the game, but ii was good that I could buy it.
The auction house was quite boring too in terms of gameplay, but it's also true that in Wind Waker there was more to do with the money you own.
I agree with you about Wind Waker, but my point was about the ruppee, they tried to put some use to it other than buying items I would gain for free or that I wouldn't need that much. In Twilight Princess the Magic Armor itsn't essential for the game, but ii was good that I could buy it.
The auction house was quite boring too in terms of gameplay, but it's also true that in Wind Waker there was more to do with the money you own.
Nice post! Zelda is seriously the classic nintendo series that NEED to be tweaked in a bigger perspective! Mario changed, Metroid changed, Star Fox changed (only pokemon remains the same shit)! All Zeldas have their particularities, but, indeed, the 'formula'presented is ALWAYS the same!
I risk to say that the dungeon concept is getting rather old!
good article, man!
I risk to say that the dungeon concept is getting rather old!
good article, man!
An alternative, Vigilante, would be to do away with rupees altogether, design a game where no purchasing occurs, focusing exclusively on combat and exploration. I will say this, Zelda games need more violence. I don't mean heads ripping off and guts spilling, but the limitations they're currently dealing with, I feel, make combat seem somehow pantomime. I fear this will only remain the same with the upcoming Wii console, since they will want to market it as widely as possible (can we blame them?).
@Khazar222
The combat sometimes to me feels like almost unnecessary. It's cool but there's almost no challenge, the enemies wait for me to attack, don't fight back, and when they do it's slow.
What's the point on having a lot of cool moves if I can't use them against a good opponent?
The combat sometimes to me feels like almost unnecessary. It's cool but there's almost no challenge, the enemies wait for me to attack, don't fight back, and when they do it's slow.
What's the point on having a lot of cool moves if I can't use them against a good opponent?
Excellent first post! Welcome to the active community!
There's no way I can argue about the unique elements in Snowpeak, though the setting did seem to feel strange to me. I've always wondered what exactly bothered me about that particular "dungeon," but it's hard for me to put a finger on it. There's just something strange to me about those yetis.
The rest of the game really did a great job at perfecting the "Zelda" formula as far as game design goes. I really hope the next game can bring back the emotions and empathy associated with Ocarina of Time (and even Link's Awakening meant more to me emotionally).
There's no way I can argue about the unique elements in Snowpeak, though the setting did seem to feel strange to me. I've always wondered what exactly bothered me about that particular "dungeon," but it's hard for me to put a finger on it. There's just something strange to me about those yetis.
The rest of the game really did a great job at perfecting the "Zelda" formula as far as game design goes. I really hope the next game can bring back the emotions and empathy associated with Ocarina of Time (and even Link's Awakening meant more to me emotionally).
I disagree in the point of combat.
The combat system in Zelda is great. The thing is, it lacks a real challenge! You can use your moves properly, Vigilante! In the Zeldas you probably meant by saying that ( Wind Wakerand Twilight Princess) you could almost abbuse on those moves. The problem is like you said, enemies are dumb! Chris, I hope the next Zelda has at least a 'hard' mode! Taking in consideration what you and Khazar said, I say: Nintendo, you really want to make Zelda look more mature? then don't simply throw a darker game with a more serious Link while Ganondorf is a complete slacker!
The combat system in Zelda is great. The thing is, it lacks a real challenge! You can use your moves properly, Vigilante! In the Zeldas you probably meant by saying that ( Wind Wakerand Twilight Princess) you could almost abbuse on those moves. The problem is like you said, enemies are dumb! Chris, I hope the next Zelda has at least a 'hard' mode! Taking in consideration what you and Khazar said, I say: Nintendo, you really want to make Zelda look more mature? then don't simply throw a darker game with a more serious Link while Ganondorf is a complete slacker!
I think Vigilante, that is comes down to this: the difficulty doesn't scale well. Your dealing with a limited palette of moves, so the enemies can only do so much against you. I feel that the sword and shield combo could make for some crazy maneuvers, just look at the movies Troy and 300. My guess is that the Zelda team doesn't like itineration when it comes to the combat. They need to just start throwing moves in, everything possible, and see what sticks through rigorous play.
I think that, by effect of this discussion, the new Zelda should be named as:
'The Legend of Zelda: The Demon's Souls'
'The Legend of Zelda: The Demon's Souls'
I must be one of the few who think that the Zelda formula isn't that much in need of change. While the basic concepts remain the same between games, almost everything else that overlays the concepts change. At least in this case, you're only suggesting some changes and not a complete 180. I heard people make suggestions like have Link fight using fisticuffs. The upcoming Wii Zelda I think is supposed to be the big changes. Most game series follow a formula, but some follow it more closely than others, especially Pokémon, but that’s because many people like formula. The main 2D Mario games follow a similar formula of eight worlds broken up into several stages that include a mini-fortress or two. The power ups also tend to be similar between the games, mostly the Mushroom and Fire Flower. The 3D games follow a formula of collecting objects and doing various missions on a single stage. The Metroid games follow a formula of collecting various upgrades, usually with 14 energy tanks and many missile expansions.
I think Zelda adds various things on top of the classic formula for every game. In A Link to the Past, there's the concept of the dark world. Okay, that isn't much, but the series was still defining itself around that time. OoT added the time travel concept. MM's had, well, its masks and another form of time travel. TWW added sailing as a major part of the game. Personally I found it dull to sail and especially change the wind direction, but it did made a different attempt at least. TP, while pretty similar to OoT, did have updates to many of the classic items and had Wolf Link, even if it wasn't done all that well. They also attempted to make it darker. Not to mention most of the characters change between games that are not direct sequels.
I do agree that the difficulty could be higher, especially since I found TWW and TP too easy. Would it really be too much trouble for Nintendo to add a hard mode so that players don’t have to resort to a self-imposed challenge like three hearts only? TP gave you a bunch of moves, but easy enemies to use them against.
I think Zelda adds various things on top of the classic formula for every game. In A Link to the Past, there's the concept of the dark world. Okay, that isn't much, but the series was still defining itself around that time. OoT added the time travel concept. MM's had, well, its masks and another form of time travel. TWW added sailing as a major part of the game. Personally I found it dull to sail and especially change the wind direction, but it did made a different attempt at least. TP, while pretty similar to OoT, did have updates to many of the classic items and had Wolf Link, even if it wasn't done all that well. They also attempted to make it darker. Not to mention most of the characters change between games that are not direct sequels.
I do agree that the difficulty could be higher, especially since I found TWW and TP too easy. Would it really be too much trouble for Nintendo to add a hard mode so that players don’t have to resort to a self-imposed challenge like three hearts only? TP gave you a bunch of moves, but easy enemies to use them against.
Most of the things you mentioned are moments that come and go quickly, the core of the Zelda games is always the same and that's what's stale, there's nothing interesting or exciting about a Zelda game anymore, the fact they've decided to add incredibly long tutorials doesn't really help either.
I think the worst thing I could say about Twilight Princess is that it felt like a chore to play at times. I took a few months off from it, because it seemed to drag a bit. If Zelda was all i wanted to play, then the game would have been fantastic: there's plenty to get into. But something about the flow of it bogged it down.
Maybe its time for a looser travel form than Epona. Or maybe some tweaks to the way dungeons work. There's bunch of rote, mechanical and excessive backtracking that gets stale quick, save for really cool moments or items pickups.
Maybe its time for a looser travel form than Epona. Or maybe some tweaks to the way dungeons work. There's bunch of rote, mechanical and excessive backtracking that gets stale quick, save for really cool moments or items pickups.
@Kyousuke Nanbu: Was that a reply for me? Maybe it's more of how they do the formula than the formula itself. Instead of changing the core game play, what could be done to improve the core game play? Could the puzzles in the dungeon be improved? Better combat design? What exactly about the core game play that is broken? Couldn't the nine dungeons and usual items work if done in a better way? How much can be changed without changing too much?
Shouldn't it be "2 sips sword"?
Crummy sword and Master sword.
Also, most Zeldas have more or less than 9 Dungeons.
Crummy sword and Master sword.
Also, most Zeldas have more or less than 9 Dungeons.
I would love the series to go back to a Majora's Mask type game. The masks seriously need a comeback.
I have to admit I loved TP to death.
But honestly, I feel like with TP, they restarted the entire series with one definitive story. They should build upon that same story and for the first, actually go somewhere with it.
If they try and pull the same shit with the next sequel, I predict disastrous results for the series' reputation. I know it's a damn kids game, but come 'on I wanna see Zelda and Link actually show some sort of interest in each other.
I mean shit, the guy is the best looking dude in Hyrule, she's the best looking girl, he freakin saves the world and her life. I can let it slide for TP since it was their first meeting I guess. But if this persists and she doesn't fall in love with him, she's a bitch, and so is Nintendo for refusing to grow up.
Then all I have is 3D Dot Heroes.
But honestly, I feel like with TP, they restarted the entire series with one definitive story. They should build upon that same story and for the first, actually go somewhere with it.
If they try and pull the same shit with the next sequel, I predict disastrous results for the series' reputation. I know it's a damn kids game, but come 'on I wanna see Zelda and Link actually show some sort of interest in each other.
I mean shit, the guy is the best looking dude in Hyrule, she's the best looking girl, he freakin saves the world and her life. I can let it slide for TP since it was their first meeting I guess. But if this persists and she doesn't fall in love with him, she's a bitch, and so is Nintendo for refusing to grow up.
Then all I have is 3D Dot Heroes.
Wow, excellent start at Destructoid, dude, and one of my favorite subjects, too! :-D
Personally, I'm such a huge fan of Zelda that I rarely notice the monotenous times, but I've recently been feeling the need for a change. The series is great, but it can be argued (to an extent) that every Zelda game post-A Link to the Past has been a remake of that game -- You always get three stones, one blue, red, and green, get the Master Sword, defeat a big enemy, go through more dungeons, and fight Ganon(dorf) to finish the game. We need it mixed up a bit for he next game.
Personally, I'm such a huge fan of Zelda that I rarely notice the monotenous times, but I've recently been feeling the need for a change. The series is great, but it can be argued (to an extent) that every Zelda game post-A Link to the Past has been a remake of that game -- You always get three stones, one blue, red, and green, get the Master Sword, defeat a big enemy, go through more dungeons, and fight Ganon(dorf) to finish the game. We need it mixed up a bit for he next game.
Also, Twilight Princess is probably my favorite Zelda because of what you mentioned -- Classic Zelda with enough tweaks to make it feel fresh.
People who hate Zelda games have no souls, proven fact. They're those weir Re-deads from OOT who try to violate Link.
I think they do a fair bit of mixing things up these days. I haven't played Twilight Princess, but the last two I did play were Minish Cap and currently Phantom Hourglass. They might have a degree of formula to them, but there's always a fresh set of new ideas as well, which is all I'm really ever looking for.
As for emotion, I don't really worry about Zelda games banking much on that, but the moments they throw end tend to be rather effective and touching. The end of Majora's Mask, the departure from home in Wind Waker and also that strange, soul-searching monologue from 'Dorf at the end are all good examples of this. I was actually pretty blown away by Ganondorf's monologue, actually. All that talk about this being the "kiddie" Zelda and I get smacked upside the head with a moment of actual maturity.
It made me feel kinda bad that I had to stab him in the head afterward.
I think they do a fair bit of mixing things up these days. I haven't played Twilight Princess, but the last two I did play were Minish Cap and currently Phantom Hourglass. They might have a degree of formula to them, but there's always a fresh set of new ideas as well, which is all I'm really ever looking for.
As for emotion, I don't really worry about Zelda games banking much on that, but the moments they throw end tend to be rather effective and touching. The end of Majora's Mask, the departure from home in Wind Waker and also that strange, soul-searching monologue from 'Dorf at the end are all good examples of this. I was actually pretty blown away by Ganondorf's monologue, actually. All that talk about this being the "kiddie" Zelda and I get smacked upside the head with a moment of actual maturity.
It made me feel kinda bad that I had to stab him in the head afterward.
[TWILIGHT PRINCESS SPOILER ALERT!!!]
@The Silent Protagonist
Yea all the games never really made me think about the maturity, and TP had it going amazingly up until the end when Link and Zelda finally have a moment in peace and all that happens is a thanks, see ya around some time. Completely stunned me as I was feeling all the epic emotions only to quickly realize that Link is a gay. He runs around wearing white spandex under his green dress, and that's the only way I could logically reason why there was no romance between him and Zelda. The whole game was so realistic, I couldn't help but be forced to wonder.
It didn't kill the entire game, because I loved every other moment of it, but why not go in that direction? It's not like kids can't handle at least a small instance of kid-rated romance.
@The Silent Protagonist
Yea all the games never really made me think about the maturity, and TP had it going amazingly up until the end when Link and Zelda finally have a moment in peace and all that happens is a thanks, see ya around some time. Completely stunned me as I was feeling all the epic emotions only to quickly realize that Link is a gay. He runs around wearing white spandex under his green dress, and that's the only way I could logically reason why there was no romance between him and Zelda. The whole game was so realistic, I couldn't help but be forced to wonder.
It didn't kill the entire game, because I loved every other moment of it, but why not go in that direction? It's not like kids can't handle at least a small instance of kid-rated romance.
@Dwolfwood
Drawn together already has a whole character based around everything you just said. If you haven't alreadly I suggest you watch that show.
@The Silent Protaganist
You'll feel even worse reading these.
I swear peachi has an incredible way of pointing out how terrible the chracters actually are in video games.
Drawn together already has a whole character based around everything you just said. If you haven't alreadly I suggest you watch that show.
@The Silent Protaganist
You'll feel even worse reading these.
I swear peachi has an incredible way of pointing out how terrible the chracters actually are in video games.
I think Nintendo needs to go back to games like Link to the Past ()which I'm currently playing through - just got the moon pearl) and take a look at what made the gameplay challenging. It was necessary to have additional heart pieces, to have 1-2 faires in a bottle and/or hp potions despite already gaining a good amoutn from just defeating bosses.The thing is, bosses as well as standard enemies always posed a threat. They were not easy as they are in the 3D Zelda titles where they rarely do enough damage to cause a concern for recovering one's hp.
I think one way to fix this in 3D Zelda titles is to A) limit the amount of heart pieces one can find from side missions and b) if an enemy hits you, either take way half the heart of your hp or the full heart and c) make enemies and bosses deal more damage. That way, it gives us a reason to need to use rupees and store fairies in bottles as well a keep extra potions with us on the journey in and outside of dungeons.
I think one way to fix this in 3D Zelda titles is to A) limit the amount of heart pieces one can find from side missions and b) if an enemy hits you, either take way half the heart of your hp or the full heart and c) make enemies and bosses deal more damage. That way, it gives us a reason to need to use rupees and store fairies in bottles as well a keep extra potions with us on the journey in and outside of dungeons.
Pedroray2003:
That only holds true if you discount Majora's Mask and every single handheld entry. I see your point though.
That only holds true if you discount Majora's Mask and every single handheld entry. I see your point though.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the new items are made too specifically for one particular use, and that the progression from dungeon to dungeon is much too obvious.
Starting with the items thing, the first thing that comes to mind is the spinning gear disc thing from the old prison in Twilight Princess. When I first heard about it, I thought it'd be pretty much the coolest thing ever to just travel around on, if only because it wasn't Epona. What I got was a big metal McGuffin that lost momentum in all of about two seconds and could only be used effectively (see: going really fast) in all of about three spots outside of the dungeon you got it in. The ball and chain, too, echoes this. While it's incredibly satisfying to take down an easy overworld enemy by slamming them in the face with a wrecking ball, the item is practically useless otherwise. If the items started being used outside of where you first got them (using the Cane of Somaria to summon up a huge block to hide behind when a boss breathes a wall of flame would be amazing, don't lie), it'd certainly make receiving them that much more exciting than the (or rather, my) response of, "cool, I can go to that one room near the entrance now."
As for the hand-holding, my mind turns immediately to Link's Awakening. Most non-completionist players probably jumped inside the Windfish's egg expecting a standard endgame dungeon, but instead received a whole bunch of rooms that seemingly went nowhere. Those that completed the lengthy trading chain, though, probably would've remembered that book in the library with the tiny text the minute they got a magnifying glass. While trading chains aren't the best way to deal with providing obstacles to progressing (Oracle of Ages avoided this well with you having to essentially be a time-traveling detective to find out what you need to do), having them is much preferable to just running around following map markers doing what NPCs tell you to do (which, admittedly, is better than the original Legend of Zelda's aimless (albeit fun) wandering, and which Link's Awakening is partially guilty of). This point might be a bit skewed by me recalling the relative difficulty of the games I played at different points in my life, though.
But yeah! Really nice first post, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of your stuff.
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Starting with the items thing, the first thing that comes to mind is the spinning gear disc thing from the old prison in Twilight Princess. When I first heard about it, I thought it'd be pretty much the coolest thing ever to just travel around on, if only because it wasn't Epona. What I got was a big metal McGuffin that lost momentum in all of about two seconds and could only be used effectively (see: going really fast) in all of about three spots outside of the dungeon you got it in. The ball and chain, too, echoes this. While it's incredibly satisfying to take down an easy overworld enemy by slamming them in the face with a wrecking ball, the item is practically useless otherwise. If the items started being used outside of where you first got them (using the Cane of Somaria to summon up a huge block to hide behind when a boss breathes a wall of flame would be amazing, don't lie), it'd certainly make receiving them that much more exciting than the (or rather, my) response of, "cool, I can go to that one room near the entrance now."
As for the hand-holding, my mind turns immediately to Link's Awakening. Most non-completionist players probably jumped inside the Windfish's egg expecting a standard endgame dungeon, but instead received a whole bunch of rooms that seemingly went nowhere. Those that completed the lengthy trading chain, though, probably would've remembered that book in the library with the tiny text the minute they got a magnifying glass. While trading chains aren't the best way to deal with providing obstacles to progressing (Oracle of Ages avoided this well with you having to essentially be a time-traveling detective to find out what you need to do), having them is much preferable to just running around following map markers doing what NPCs tell you to do (which, admittedly, is better than the original Legend of Zelda's aimless (albeit fun) wandering, and which Link's Awakening is partially guilty of). This point might be a bit skewed by me recalling the relative difficulty of the games I played at different points in my life, though.
But yeah! Really nice first post, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of your stuff.
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I apologize if someone has already said this, but I'm in a rush and couldn't read all the way through the comments. I think the reason behind the repetitious story is that Zelda deals with themse. The reason there is no timeline is that Zelda is about overarching themes. The retelling of the story is a retelling of these themes of heroism, power and wisdom in different ways. Yes, you are playing the same story, but it's meant to be that in this case. Think of it almost as an ancient tale that is handed down through generations, and changes a bit every time someone tells it. I love that idea, maybe not everyone does.
Great write up.
Great write up.
Twilight Princess is incredibly unjustly underrated, and I can't imagine why. People keep saying it's because it's "just like Ocarina of Time", but it's not like people weren't asking for it after being disgruntled about Wind Waker. They say it like it's a bad thing, when in fact it's just another awesome Zelda game with a new score, new story, and new twists and quirks to it to make it authentic.
I agree wholeheartedly. The whole reason Twilight Princess was received poorly was that it was so derivative. It stuck to the Zelda formula to a T, and it suffered for it. I personally take issue with the boss fights more than anything. I can go into any Zelda boss fight and know exactly how to beat it from the moment I start, and that takes away a lot of the excitement that used to be there.
About the dungeons, what I tried to say is that in any Zelda game when you enter a dungeon you already know what to expect.
-chests
-open chests with keys/rupees/ammo/map/compass
-find mini boss
-get new item after the mini boss
-find big chest with the big key
-the largest ( usually round ) room it's the boss room
In the Goron Mines the there wasn't a big chest with the big key, I wasn't expecting for that
In the Snowpeak Ruins not only I wasn't looking for keys to open doors, but instead I was looking for ingredients for a soup, that would finally lead me to the "big key".
Again about the Snowpeck Ruins ( I love that dungeon ), the dungeon item wasn't acquired in a chest after I defeated the mini boss, I actually got the weapon the mini boss was wielding against me.
Simple tweaks that don't changed the formula "find that to open that so you can face that" and still bring creativity.
-chests
-open chests with keys/rupees/ammo/map/compass
-find mini boss
-get new item after the mini boss
-find big chest with the big key
-the largest ( usually round ) room it's the boss room
In the Goron Mines the there wasn't a big chest with the big key, I wasn't expecting for that
In the Snowpeak Ruins not only I wasn't looking for keys to open doors, but instead I was looking for ingredients for a soup, that would finally lead me to the "big key".
Again about the Snowpeck Ruins ( I love that dungeon ), the dungeon item wasn't acquired in a chest after I defeated the mini boss, I actually got the weapon the mini boss was wielding against me.
Simple tweaks that don't changed the formula "find that to open that so you can face that" and still bring creativity.
@matt razak
exactly. the same story retold is the perfect way to look at the zelda series, with whichever exceptions the zelda fanatics want to acknowledge acknowledged.
oh I just got a sweet idea, bye everyone
exactly. the same story retold is the perfect way to look at the zelda series, with whichever exceptions the zelda fanatics want to acknowledge acknowledged.
oh I just got a sweet idea, bye everyone
If they change the formula too radically, the "fans" will complain. Too little change, and they'll cry foul of derivatives.
Are we all seeing the problem here?
Are we all seeing the problem here?
There were plenty of minigames in the Zelda game that you could spend your money on. Even in ocarina you could visit those shops in the town and play those awkward shop keeper games. I think the company has done a really good job over the years bringing in different aspects or concepts. I mean, look at where we started. It was basically a hack and slash RPG (i know, not much else you can do with 8-bit). Then it eventually evolved into ocarina, which was the epitome of amazing. After that, they put plenty of twists on it. I mean they even used a whole new art style in windwaker and minish cap. And in every game you have a whole, usually music-making, item. Like the wand, the ocarina (which no one will EVER beat. i could play the simpsons theme song with that shit!) and the wolf howling, etc. I'm really glad they aren't going in a different direction because a lot of companies are completely changing the genre of the game (refer to resident evil), making veterans disappointed for the most part, and creating (while destroying) a whole new fan base.
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