surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
@Cowboy TTop:
"To the first point about RE4, it was EASIER for Capcom to port RE4, than make fresh one from scratch like RE5. Unfortunately, you fail to see the light here. Would you have Capcom build a new engine for Dead Rising port?"
I was talking about making RE5 with Darkside Chronicles engine, in a lightgun game it feels wasted when it could be used on a decent gameplay game instead of another lazy on rail shooter. As for DR:CTYD? you really think that one got polish enough? Capcom admited it was a low budget title, if you expect to make AAA sales with a low budget, graphically poor port of an HD console game on Wii you are just dumb.
"They'd probably see that as not cost effective for 10 year old tech. Besides, Capcom have other projects that demand more expert help, time and man power such as Lost Planet 2, Dead Rising 2, SSFIV, Final Fight Double Impact etc "
And again you use the "they can do better on HD as it's cost effective" scapegoat excuse for them and shift blame on the Wii, ok, assuming i can accept that, then they:
a)should go to the HD twins and stop releasing crap only to then whine that it's not selling
b)start making good games
Problem is that they go with:
c) Keep making crap and expect to sell shitloads
You can't have your cake and eat it too, like i said, devs need to grow the fuck up.
"To my next point about EA and Dead Space, it was EASIER for them to make a rail shooter, than a dedicated Wii exclsuive Dead Space. Think about EA and all the other games they were making at the same time that year. I didn't like the fact they did this either, but thinking again, from OUTSIDE OF A GAMERS THINKING, I understood why they did so. "
*facepalm*
Of course it was easier from the "company thinking" Captain Obvious! since gamers don't think as companies but as customers: that doesn't mean we gamers must pay the same money we would have payed for a REAL Dead Space game for ANOTHER FUCKING ON RAIL SHOOTER! is it that hard to understand?
"EA and Capcom have to look out for themselves at the end of the day, and if Wii not profitable for them, and they can't define who they are selling to, such decisions like this get made. I don't like everything that's done, but that's the kind of split Wii has made in the market. It didn't have to be the way it is, but that's the nature of the situation at large."
Again, if they look out for themselves as companies that's fine, but expecting us to look out for them is pretty damn stupid of them to ask of us when they keep taking the easy way out when it comes to game making.
"I notice, Dear Edgy, that while you down play or dismiss much of what I say, in response to this news post, and lamely defend Nintendo, but you've not responded to the fact that Sony had no inhouse devs studios as such when they entered the market, and built some, creating some new IP and catering the mature many. From Syphon Filter, Spyro to God of War and Uncharted, they've done a grand job. Edgy, you give no valid reason, that if Nintendo can't make the type of games Reggie is talking about, why they cannot learn to create them (regardless of whether they do it through small dev buying or not).
There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
As for not trying to do mature, they are taking steps into that, slow ones yes, after all when you lack experience in something it's best not to jump like crazy into the unknown or imitate for the sake of it (Sony Move anyone?) but like Vanor showed, Zangeki no Reignlev is clearly a step in that direction, will it work? dunno we have to wait for release date to find out. The Last Story?, in that case Nintendo allied with experts on the RPG area (Mystwalker), one they haven't delved too deeply into to make what so far seems like a solid mature RPG, unless not having FF13 graphics means it's not mature enough for you that is.
If those are not signs enough for you, you're either blind or just don't want to see and again, that's your problem not Nintendo's.
"There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
Wait a sec, so by this awesome logic of yours it's better to just try on your own to make stuff when you have no experience in it instead of gathering the help of experts in the area? here's 2 examples on the EPIC FAIL of logic:
1) Super Mario RPG Legend of The Seven Stars was a collaboration between Square and Nintendo and a critical and sales success, they learned the basics of RPG making in that one and if the 3 Superstar Saga in DS and GBA are something to go by it seems they did learned pretty well the basics. Did you like that game? do you consider it inexcusable Nintendo's behaviour in this case?
2) Explain how is it different/better for Sony to buy Studios and their IPs instead of making one of their own and starting new IPs from scratch with people inexperienced in game making, i'd really like to see you come up with sane rebuttal for that one.
Also, assuming you're right *laughs*, isn't it by the same token inexcusable for companies like Capcom with so much experience to release crap like DR:CTYD? i mean they are "seasoned industry veterans" with 2+ decades of experience in game making, cuz the Wii is capable of great looking games, that is a proven fact (Darkside Chronicles) so the graphical poop that game was is not the Wii's fault.
"To the first point about RE4, it was EASIER for Capcom to port RE4, than make fresh one from scratch like RE5. Unfortunately, you fail to see the light here. Would you have Capcom build a new engine for Dead Rising port?"
I was talking about making RE5 with Darkside Chronicles engine, in a lightgun game it feels wasted when it could be used on a decent gameplay game instead of another lazy on rail shooter. As for DR:CTYD? you really think that one got polish enough? Capcom admited it was a low budget title, if you expect to make AAA sales with a low budget, graphically poor port of an HD console game on Wii you are just dumb.
"They'd probably see that as not cost effective for 10 year old tech. Besides, Capcom have other projects that demand more expert help, time and man power such as Lost Planet 2, Dead Rising 2, SSFIV, Final Fight Double Impact etc "
And again you use the "they can do better on HD as it's cost effective" scapegoat excuse for them and shift blame on the Wii, ok, assuming i can accept that, then they:
a)should go to the HD twins and stop releasing crap only to then whine that it's not selling
b)start making good games
Problem is that they go with:
c) Keep making crap and expect to sell shitloads
You can't have your cake and eat it too, like i said, devs need to grow the fuck up.
"To my next point about EA and Dead Space, it was EASIER for them to make a rail shooter, than a dedicated Wii exclsuive Dead Space. Think about EA and all the other games they were making at the same time that year. I didn't like the fact they did this either, but thinking again, from OUTSIDE OF A GAMERS THINKING, I understood why they did so. "
*facepalm*
Of course it was easier from the "company thinking" Captain Obvious! since gamers don't think as companies but as customers: that doesn't mean we gamers must pay the same money we would have payed for a REAL Dead Space game for ANOTHER FUCKING ON RAIL SHOOTER! is it that hard to understand?
"EA and Capcom have to look out for themselves at the end of the day, and if Wii not profitable for them, and they can't define who they are selling to, such decisions like this get made. I don't like everything that's done, but that's the kind of split Wii has made in the market. It didn't have to be the way it is, but that's the nature of the situation at large."
Again, if they look out for themselves as companies that's fine, but expecting us to look out for them is pretty damn stupid of them to ask of us when they keep taking the easy way out when it comes to game making.
"I notice, Dear Edgy, that while you down play or dismiss much of what I say, in response to this news post, and lamely defend Nintendo, but you've not responded to the fact that Sony had no inhouse devs studios as such when they entered the market, and built some, creating some new IP and catering the mature many. From Syphon Filter, Spyro to God of War and Uncharted, they've done a grand job. Edgy, you give no valid reason, that if Nintendo can't make the type of games Reggie is talking about, why they cannot learn to create them (regardless of whether they do it through small dev buying or not).
There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
As for not trying to do mature, they are taking steps into that, slow ones yes, after all when you lack experience in something it's best not to jump like crazy into the unknown or imitate for the sake of it (Sony Move anyone?) but like Vanor showed, Zangeki no Reignlev is clearly a step in that direction, will it work? dunno we have to wait for release date to find out. The Last Story?, in that case Nintendo allied with experts on the RPG area (Mystwalker), one they haven't delved too deeply into to make what so far seems like a solid mature RPG, unless not having FF13 graphics means it's not mature enough for you that is.
If those are not signs enough for you, you're either blind or just don't want to see and again, that's your problem not Nintendo's.
"There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
Wait a sec, so by this awesome logic of yours it's better to just try on your own to make stuff when you have no experience in it instead of gathering the help of experts in the area? here's 2 examples on the EPIC FAIL of logic:
1) Super Mario RPG Legend of The Seven Stars was a collaboration between Square and Nintendo and a critical and sales success, they learned the basics of RPG making in that one and if the 3 Superstar Saga in DS and GBA are something to go by it seems they did learned pretty well the basics. Did you like that game? do you consider it inexcusable Nintendo's behaviour in this case?
2) Explain how is it different/better for Sony to buy Studios and their IPs instead of making one of their own and starting new IPs from scratch with people inexperienced in game making, i'd really like to see you come up with sane rebuttal for that one.
Also, assuming you're right *laughs*, isn't it by the same token inexcusable for companies like Capcom with so much experience to release crap like DR:CTYD? i mean they are "seasoned industry veterans" with 2+ decades of experience in game making, cuz the Wii is capable of great looking games, that is a proven fact (Darkside Chronicles) so the graphical poop that game was is not the Wii's fault.
Sorry, I missed that, what did you say? I can't tell my text from yours in that.
Try reposting it and use quotes or bold text, so I can read it. Thanks.
Try reposting it and use quotes or bold text, so I can read it. Thanks.
@Cowboy TTop: yours was already in quotes, but hell, here:
"To the first point about RE4, it was EASIER for Capcom to port RE4, than make fresh one from scratch like RE5. Unfortunately, you fail to see the light here. Would you have Capcom build a new engine for Dead Rising port?"
I was talking about making RE5 with Darkside Chronicles engine, in a lightgun game it feels wasted when it could be used on a decent gameplay game instead of another lazy on rail shooter. As for DR:CTYD? you really think that one got polish enough? Capcom admited it was a low budget title, if you expect to make AAA sales with a low budget, graphically poor port of an HD console game on Wii you are just dumb.
"They'd probably see that as not cost effective for 10 year old tech. Besides, Capcom have other projects that demand more expert help, time and man power such as Lost Planet 2, Dead Rising 2, SSFIV, Final Fight Double Impact etc "
And again you use the "they can do better on HD as it's cost effective" scapegoat excuse for them and shift blame on the Wii, ok, assuming i can accept that, then they:
a)should go to the HD twins and stop releasing crap only to then whine that it's not selling
b)start making good games
Problem is that they go with:
c) Keep making crap and expect to sell shitloads
You can't have your cake and eat it too, like i said, devs need to grow the fuck up.
"To my next point about EA and Dead Space, it was EASIER for them to make a rail shooter, than a dedicated Wii exclsuive Dead Space. Think about EA and all the other games they were making at the same time that year. I didn't like the fact they did this either, but thinking again, from OUTSIDE OF A GAMERS THINKING, I understood why they did so. "
*facepalm*
Of course it was easier from the "company thinking" Captain Obvious! but since gamers don't think as companies but as customers: that doesn't mean we gamers must pay the same money we would have payed for a REAL Dead Space game for ANOTHER FUCKING ON RAIL SHOOTER! is it that hard to understand?
"EA and Capcom have to look out for themselves at the end of the day, and if Wii not profitable for them, and they can't define who they are selling to, such decisions like this get made. I don't like everything that's done, but that's the kind of split Wii has made in the market. It didn't have to be the way it is, but that's the nature of the situation at large."
Again, if they look out for themselves as companies that's fine, but expecting us to look out for them is pretty damn stupid of them to ask of us when they keep taking the easy way out when it comes to game making.
[i]"I notice, Dear Edgy, that while you down play or dismiss much of what I say, in response to this news post, and lamely defend Nintendo, but you've not responded to the fact that Sony had no inhouse devs studios as such when they entered the market, and built some, creating some new IP and catering the mature many. From Syphon Filter, Spyro to God of War and Uncharted, they've done a grand job. Edgy, you give no valid reason, that if Nintendo can't make the type of games Reggie is talking about, why they cannot learn to create them (regardless of whether they do it through small dev buying or not).
There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."[/i]
As for not trying to do mature, they are taking steps into that, slow ones yes, after all when you lack experience in something it's best not to jump like crazy into the unknown or imitate for the sake of it (Sony Move anyone?) but like Vanor showed, Zangeki no Reignlev is clearly a step in that direction, will it work? dunno we have to wait for release date to find out. The Last Story?, in that case Nintendo allied with experts on the RPG area (Mystwalker), one they haven't delved too deeply into to make what so far seems like a solid mature RPG, unless not having FF13 graphics means it's not mature enough for you that is.
If those are not signs enough for you, you're either blind or just don't want to see and again, that's your problem not Nintendo's.
"There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
Wait a sec, so by this awesome logic of yours it's better to just try on your own to make stuff when you have no experience in it instead of gathering the help of experts in the area? here's 2 examples on the EPIC FAIL of that logic:
1) Super Mario RPG Legend of The Seven Stars was a collaboration between Square and Nintendo and a critical and sales success, they learned the basics of RPG making in that one and if the 3 Superstar Saga in DS and GBA are something to go by it seems they did learned pretty well the basics. Did you like that game? do you consider it inexcusable Nintendo's behaviour in this case?
2) Explain how is it different/better for Sony to buy Studios and their IPs instead of making one of their own and starting new IPs from scratch with people inexperienced in game making, i'd really like to see you come up with sane rebuttal for that one.
Also, assuming you're right *laughs*, isn't it by the same token inexcusable for companies like Capcom with so much experience to release crap like DR:CTYD? i mean they are "seasoned industry veterans" with 2+ decades of experience in game making, cuz the Wii is capable of great looking games, that is a proven fact (Darkside Chronicles) so the graphical poop that game was is not the Wii's fault.
"To the first point about RE4, it was EASIER for Capcom to port RE4, than make fresh one from scratch like RE5. Unfortunately, you fail to see the light here. Would you have Capcom build a new engine for Dead Rising port?"
I was talking about making RE5 with Darkside Chronicles engine, in a lightgun game it feels wasted when it could be used on a decent gameplay game instead of another lazy on rail shooter. As for DR:CTYD? you really think that one got polish enough? Capcom admited it was a low budget title, if you expect to make AAA sales with a low budget, graphically poor port of an HD console game on Wii you are just dumb.
"They'd probably see that as not cost effective for 10 year old tech. Besides, Capcom have other projects that demand more expert help, time and man power such as Lost Planet 2, Dead Rising 2, SSFIV, Final Fight Double Impact etc "
And again you use the "they can do better on HD as it's cost effective" scapegoat excuse for them and shift blame on the Wii, ok, assuming i can accept that, then they:
a)should go to the HD twins and stop releasing crap only to then whine that it's not selling
b)start making good games
Problem is that they go with:
c) Keep making crap and expect to sell shitloads
You can't have your cake and eat it too, like i said, devs need to grow the fuck up.
"To my next point about EA and Dead Space, it was EASIER for them to make a rail shooter, than a dedicated Wii exclsuive Dead Space. Think about EA and all the other games they were making at the same time that year. I didn't like the fact they did this either, but thinking again, from OUTSIDE OF A GAMERS THINKING, I understood why they did so. "
*facepalm*
Of course it was easier from the "company thinking" Captain Obvious! but since gamers don't think as companies but as customers: that doesn't mean we gamers must pay the same money we would have payed for a REAL Dead Space game for ANOTHER FUCKING ON RAIL SHOOTER! is it that hard to understand?
"EA and Capcom have to look out for themselves at the end of the day, and if Wii not profitable for them, and they can't define who they are selling to, such decisions like this get made. I don't like everything that's done, but that's the kind of split Wii has made in the market. It didn't have to be the way it is, but that's the nature of the situation at large."
Again, if they look out for themselves as companies that's fine, but expecting us to look out for them is pretty damn stupid of them to ask of us when they keep taking the easy way out when it comes to game making.
[i]"I notice, Dear Edgy, that while you down play or dismiss much of what I say, in response to this news post, and lamely defend Nintendo, but you've not responded to the fact that Sony had no inhouse devs studios as such when they entered the market, and built some, creating some new IP and catering the mature many. From Syphon Filter, Spyro to God of War and Uncharted, they've done a grand job. Edgy, you give no valid reason, that if Nintendo can't make the type of games Reggie is talking about, why they cannot learn to create them (regardless of whether they do it through small dev buying or not).
There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."[/i]
As for not trying to do mature, they are taking steps into that, slow ones yes, after all when you lack experience in something it's best not to jump like crazy into the unknown or imitate for the sake of it (Sony Move anyone?) but like Vanor showed, Zangeki no Reignlev is clearly a step in that direction, will it work? dunno we have to wait for release date to find out. The Last Story?, in that case Nintendo allied with experts on the RPG area (Mystwalker), one they haven't delved too deeply into to make what so far seems like a solid mature RPG, unless not having FF13 graphics means it's not mature enough for you that is.
If those are not signs enough for you, you're either blind or just don't want to see and again, that's your problem not Nintendo's.
"There is no valid excuse for them, and no sign of even trying such content is telling, for such a seasoned industry veteran. Perhaps this also explains, why they have need help with the Metroid series, from Retro and now Koei Tecmo. But I guess some can't read between the lines on such stuff, or don't want to."
Wait a sec, so by this awesome logic of yours it's better to just try on your own to make stuff when you have no experience in it instead of gathering the help of experts in the area? here's 2 examples on the EPIC FAIL of that logic:
1) Super Mario RPG Legend of The Seven Stars was a collaboration between Square and Nintendo and a critical and sales success, they learned the basics of RPG making in that one and if the 3 Superstar Saga in DS and GBA are something to go by it seems they did learned pretty well the basics. Did you like that game? do you consider it inexcusable Nintendo's behaviour in this case?
2) Explain how is it different/better for Sony to buy Studios and their IPs instead of making one of their own and starting new IPs from scratch with people inexperienced in game making, i'd really like to see you come up with sane rebuttal for that one.
Also, assuming you're right *laughs*, isn't it by the same token inexcusable for companies like Capcom with so much experience to release crap like DR:CTYD? i mean they are "seasoned industry veterans" with 2+ decades of experience in game making, cuz the Wii is capable of great looking games, that is a proven fact (Darkside Chronicles) so the graphical poop that game was is not the Wii's fault.
I see no one has answered that last question I asked. If Disney can do it (some means of mature content on their books, via Marvel, Miramax etc), Nintendo shouldn't have any trouble doing the same.
Expecting Nintedo to lookout for 3rd parties, is stupid more like. If studios request help, as many did, and Nintendo do nothing, is it any surprise they leave the Wii motel?
When I say mature, I'm staying within the confines of the news post and staying on topic. And Heavy Rain I chose, only as an example of one mans vision (while that game is full of flaws and plot holes), that he chose to create on PS3 through what that system spec offered. I'll add stuff like Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Bioshock, Demon's Souls in there too, if it keeps you happy.
Ah, but where does Zangeki no Reignlev (I have been aware of this game for a while, thanks) and Last Story come from? These games come from japanese studios. Japanese studios are largely in that development flux, where they are years behind the likes of their western counter parts. Even Mistwalker while away from Square, still have their mindset stuck in jrpgs. Many of them will work with Wii, because of its close technically to PS2 in nature, another decade old system. They are less likely to complain about such a system too. Their skills suit Wii, being behind western devs skills (some, not all), but much of their game design won't be very progressive (its no coincedence both are rpg style games). Both these games look cool, I agree and will keep an eye on them, but again back to the topic of this news post, they are not from Nintendo themselves.
To diversify and expand is not that hard for Nintendo to do, for they are far from poor. I'm aware of Nintendo's buying or investment of Monolith, but frankly, when the market is now more global, that's not enough to aid them in the current industry. Gotta go west more.
Edgy, Nintendo had experts in these fields, having worked with Retro before hand, and Rare long before that, but they seem to have taken nothing learned away from those experiences, in regards to creating different games.They have access to Retro Studios for THREE METROID GAMES over so many years. And Rare made Goldeneye, which was their first FPS game. I'm aware of Super Mario RPG back on SNES and the Superstar Saga on GBA/DS, but the counter question I pose to you, is why Nintendo couldn't do this same thing you mention with Metroid Prime? CAN YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION? I see no evidence at all, that they've seeked to learn new ways of development, from western devs, and this is why Metroid gets farmed out. So, its okay for Nintendo to learn from Square (Super Mario RPG), but not from Rare (Goldeneye etc)or Retro Studios (Metroid Prime 1-3? Do you see how insane and backwardly anal that sounds. They should have learn from all of them, but clearly haven't.
To answer your Sony point, Sony buying a few studios was a short cut, one that MS emulated, but that makes it no less valid, to reach a goal they are striving for. Time marches and waits for no man, and money talks and can do a lot for you, if invested right. The difference with Sony, like your Mario RPG one, is that they learned new tricks from all the talent they acquired, all of who had a varied experience of developing different game genre. From japan to the U.S and europe they span. Its this scope that Nintendo sorely lack. Jsut because Sony chose to go this route, it doesn't make GoW etc any less Sony product, from devs under their wing to create freely, and not be locked down on establish series (something Nintendo favour more over originality, Dinosaur Planet, the best example of this, and how meddling can go wrong).
Have a look here to see how many Sony have, in first and second party devs, underwing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment
To match that, look at Nintendo's list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divisions_of_Nintendo
So, to conculde this post, its my view that Nintendo would be in a better position, if they had acquired more smaller devs too, especially more in the west. It would give them plenty talent they might lack, as well as new ways of thinking, ideas etc. Nintendo of japan could still do what they always do best, but a few more western devs could offer an alternative extra bullet to the overall gun, while being creatively free to create what they want (if that's possible. This kind of thing is not impossible for Nintendo to do and benefit from. And as a result of such alliances and varied content, Reggie wouldn't have to say things like what he has said.
Expecting Nintedo to lookout for 3rd parties, is stupid more like. If studios request help, as many did, and Nintendo do nothing, is it any surprise they leave the Wii motel?
When I say mature, I'm staying within the confines of the news post and staying on topic. And Heavy Rain I chose, only as an example of one mans vision (while that game is full of flaws and plot holes), that he chose to create on PS3 through what that system spec offered. I'll add stuff like Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Bioshock, Demon's Souls in there too, if it keeps you happy.
Ah, but where does Zangeki no Reignlev (I have been aware of this game for a while, thanks) and Last Story come from? These games come from japanese studios. Japanese studios are largely in that development flux, where they are years behind the likes of their western counter parts. Even Mistwalker while away from Square, still have their mindset stuck in jrpgs. Many of them will work with Wii, because of its close technically to PS2 in nature, another decade old system. They are less likely to complain about such a system too. Their skills suit Wii, being behind western devs skills (some, not all), but much of their game design won't be very progressive (its no coincedence both are rpg style games). Both these games look cool, I agree and will keep an eye on them, but again back to the topic of this news post, they are not from Nintendo themselves.
To diversify and expand is not that hard for Nintendo to do, for they are far from poor. I'm aware of Nintendo's buying or investment of Monolith, but frankly, when the market is now more global, that's not enough to aid them in the current industry. Gotta go west more.
Edgy, Nintendo had experts in these fields, having worked with Retro before hand, and Rare long before that, but they seem to have taken nothing learned away from those experiences, in regards to creating different games.They have access to Retro Studios for THREE METROID GAMES over so many years. And Rare made Goldeneye, which was their first FPS game. I'm aware of Super Mario RPG back on SNES and the Superstar Saga on GBA/DS, but the counter question I pose to you, is why Nintendo couldn't do this same thing you mention with Metroid Prime? CAN YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION? I see no evidence at all, that they've seeked to learn new ways of development, from western devs, and this is why Metroid gets farmed out. So, its okay for Nintendo to learn from Square (Super Mario RPG), but not from Rare (Goldeneye etc)or Retro Studios (Metroid Prime 1-3? Do you see how insane and backwardly anal that sounds. They should have learn from all of them, but clearly haven't.
To answer your Sony point, Sony buying a few studios was a short cut, one that MS emulated, but that makes it no less valid, to reach a goal they are striving for. Time marches and waits for no man, and money talks and can do a lot for you, if invested right. The difference with Sony, like your Mario RPG one, is that they learned new tricks from all the talent they acquired, all of who had a varied experience of developing different game genre. From japan to the U.S and europe they span. Its this scope that Nintendo sorely lack. Jsut because Sony chose to go this route, it doesn't make GoW etc any less Sony product, from devs under their wing to create freely, and not be locked down on establish series (something Nintendo favour more over originality, Dinosaur Planet, the best example of this, and how meddling can go wrong).
Have a look here to see how many Sony have, in first and second party devs, underwing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment
To match that, look at Nintendo's list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divisions_of_Nintendo
So, to conculde this post, its my view that Nintendo would be in a better position, if they had acquired more smaller devs too, especially more in the west. It would give them plenty talent they might lack, as well as new ways of thinking, ideas etc. Nintendo of japan could still do what they always do best, but a few more western devs could offer an alternative extra bullet to the overall gun, while being creatively free to create what they want (if that's possible. This kind of thing is not impossible for Nintendo to do and benefit from. And as a result of such alliances and varied content, Reggie wouldn't have to say things like what he has said.
@Rm88
Never said western games were better, please don't put words into my mouth. Both east and west produce good games (and bad games), but Nintendo have failed to learn from working with western developers, hence Reggie saying they can't or don't enjoy making such games.
My point is, if its all east and no west learning from Nintendo, there's a problem there, one that Sony clearly don't have, and as such makes Nintendo a bit weaker and less varied in their content output, like Reggie knows. Nintendo should seek to fix this, through more western acquisitions. The world is a big place, just like the industry, and they should learn all they can from whoever, not be so selective about it.
Never said western games were better, please don't put words into my mouth. Both east and west produce good games (and bad games), but Nintendo have failed to learn from working with western developers, hence Reggie saying they can't or don't enjoy making such games.
My point is, if its all east and no west learning from Nintendo, there's a problem there, one that Sony clearly don't have, and as such makes Nintendo a bit weaker and less varied in their content output, like Reggie knows. Nintendo should seek to fix this, through more western acquisitions. The world is a big place, just like the industry, and they should learn all they can from whoever, not be so selective about it.
@Cowboy TTop
Disney can bankroll a variety of different projects because consumers recognize it as a media conglomerate with many a multitude of divisions; Nintendo, on the other hand, is still seen as "that video game company." As a result, perhaps executives feel that a game carrying the Nintendo label is liable to scrutiny from ignorant media outlets. Thus, they are far more careful about what they create to avoid harming their business.
I think that's why games like Captain Rainbow (with a transsexual(?!) Birdo) are released in Japan yet not over here - the gaming culture is so ingrained over there compared to the West. It's not seen as a big deal.
To be fair, it's been a while since the industry has seen another Hot Coffee (GTA: SA), Sexbox (Mass Effect) or Manhunt 2-level scandal. Perhaps the people have finally come around to realizing what games can be about, and they are more accepting - or even just mindful - of them.
-----
As for Nintendo not learning from other developers, I think they have. It's just no one points it out, or they are not in the games that you like to play.
- To this day, Mario Kart Wii is still offering downloadable tournaments on a regular basis. That's DLC right there.
- WarioWare DIY and Mario vs. DK 3 are built on the idea of user-generated content. There's your LittleBigPlanet influence.
- Retro did not originally design Metroid Prime as a first-person adventure game. That was actually Miyamoto's idea. It's also no secret that he's really interested in the idea of a first-person Zelda game, too.
-----
Is Nintendo conservative to a fault? Perhaps. But, I think their indoctrination of a new legion of consumers will - in the long-run - result in the company being just fine.
In the meantime, us old-timers can either accept what they're doing and enjoy their content, or play games on other systems that better suit our tastes.
Disney can bankroll a variety of different projects because consumers recognize it as a media conglomerate with many a multitude of divisions; Nintendo, on the other hand, is still seen as "that video game company." As a result, perhaps executives feel that a game carrying the Nintendo label is liable to scrutiny from ignorant media outlets. Thus, they are far more careful about what they create to avoid harming their business.
I think that's why games like Captain Rainbow (with a transsexual(?!) Birdo) are released in Japan yet not over here - the gaming culture is so ingrained over there compared to the West. It's not seen as a big deal.
To be fair, it's been a while since the industry has seen another Hot Coffee (GTA: SA), Sexbox (Mass Effect) or Manhunt 2-level scandal. Perhaps the people have finally come around to realizing what games can be about, and they are more accepting - or even just mindful - of them.
-----
As for Nintendo not learning from other developers, I think they have. It's just no one points it out, or they are not in the games that you like to play.
- To this day, Mario Kart Wii is still offering downloadable tournaments on a regular basis. That's DLC right there.
- WarioWare DIY and Mario vs. DK 3 are built on the idea of user-generated content. There's your LittleBigPlanet influence.
- Retro did not originally design Metroid Prime as a first-person adventure game. That was actually Miyamoto's idea. It's also no secret that he's really interested in the idea of a first-person Zelda game, too.
-----
Is Nintendo conservative to a fault? Perhaps. But, I think their indoctrination of a new legion of consumers will - in the long-run - result in the company being just fine.
In the meantime, us old-timers can either accept what they're doing and enjoy their content, or play games on other systems that better suit our tastes.
Yeah, they should just drop a dead franchise like Metroid and make an original FPS IP (aint gonna happen though, would make too much sense).
[i] "I see no one has answered that last question I asked. If Disney can do it (some means of mature content on their books, via Marvel, Miramax etc), Nintendo shouldn't have any trouble doing the same.
"[/i]
Um, Rare, Retro, Team Ninja? do they have to own them or just outsource?
"Expecting Nintedo to lookout for 3rd parties, is stupid more like. If studios request help, as many did, and Nintendo do nothing, is it any surprise they leave the Wii motel? "
And have you considered the reason they didn't is because none of the projects presented were actually worth it (I.E. the crap 3rd parties tried to sell us )? because if there is one common denominator of Nintendo's rare interventions is a minimum level of quality/effort seen in those cases (MH3 advertising, Sin & Punishment 2 publishing)? unlike the usual shovelware/half-baked crap/shoddy ports 3rd parties are accustomed to do.
Also one would expect 2+ decades of expertise companies like Capcom to kinda figure it out by themselves and IMO they did (Zack and Wiki? Darkside Chronicles?), they just seem content with doing crap, being scrooge when advertising and then whining (DR:CTYD, Spyborgs) when it doesn't sell.
When I say mature, I'm staying within the confines of the news post and staying on topic. And Heavy Rain I chose, only as an example of one mans vision (while that game is full of flaws and plot holes), that he chose to create on PS3 through what that system spec offered. I'll add stuff like Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Bioshock, Demon's Souls in there too, if it keeps you happy.
Like i said, The Last Story and Zangeki no Reinglev, to me at least seem like a good start, also i'm very aware that depending how they do Nintendo will choose to keep making more or consider it just not worth it. Of course if they are good and westerners (moronically) shun them cuz it's not what they expect on the Wii then at least you'll have an answer as to why Nintendo doesn't go into mature audience.
Come to think of it, isn't the "Mature" market a bit saturated with the X360/PS3? wouldn't it be business wise to cater to a different audience and sane cores (read: not graphix/tech whores) that like good games even if not HD instead of fighting a war against countless Goliaths? i'll leave you with that thought.
"Edgy, Nintendo had experts in these fields, having worked with Retro before hand, and Rare long before that, but they seem to have taken nothing learned away from those experiences, in regards to creating different games.They have access to Retro Studios for THREE METROID GAMES over so many years. And Rare made Goldeneye, which was their first FPS game. I'm aware of Super Mario RPG back on SNES and the Superstar Saga on GBA/DS, but the counter question I pose to you, is why Nintendo couldn't do this same thing you mention with Metroid Prime? CAN YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION? I see no evidence at all, that they've seeked to learn new ways of development, from western devs, and this is why Metroid gets farmed out. So, its okay for Nintendo to learn from Square (Super Mario RPG), but not from Rare (Goldeneye etc)or Retro Studios (Metroid Prime 1-3? Do you see how insane and backwardly anal that sounds. They should have learn from all of them, but clearly haven't."
For your quesion, have you considered that outsourcing would be wiser as FPSs are not exactly a genre they want to keep making beyond a few times as it is(and the few times they did have been legendary as Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and MP prove)? otherwise we'd be seeing an announcement for MP4 instead of Other M. Look at the fighting genre for reference, Nintendo took it and made it it's own by adding a few twists and created Smash Bros (it's developer do more than just fighters), a franchise we have seen once in each generation, could they do the same with the FPS genre? i don't know how and seems Nintendo doesn't either so why get studios that developed FPSs when outsourcing is a better option. Also, Rare? if evidence is telling something, is that Nintendo was Rare's crutch, not the other way around.
[i] "To answer your Sony point, Sony buying a few studios was a short cut, one that MS emulated, but that makes it no less valid, to reach a goal they are striving for. Time marches and waits for no man, and money talks and can do a lot for you, if invested right. The difference with Sony, like your Mario RPG one, is that they learned new tricks from all the talent they acquired, all of who had a varied experience of developing different game genre. From japan to the U.S and europe they span. Its this scope that Nintendo sorely lack. Jsut because Sony chose to go this route, it doesn't make GoW etc any less Sony product, from devs under their wing to create freely, and not be locked down on establish series (something Nintendo favour more over originality, Dinosaur Planet, the best example of this, and how meddling can go wrong).
Have a look here to see how many Sony have, in first and second party devs, underwing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment
To match that, look at Nintendo's list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divisions_of_Nintendo
" [/i]
But compare Sony's massive money hoard (even if games failed they could always fall back on electronics sales) to Nintendo's waning one when the Wii happened, also Sony with all that cash and studios has not gained a reputation even close to Nintendo's as a 1st party developer.
On Star Fox Adventure/Dinosaur planet, did it suffer in sales? as i recall it was the best seller in GC AND critically praised at that moment, would it have done better as a new IP? hmm, maybe, maybe not, but historically new IPs are hard sellers so maybe adding the SF name to it (IMO just a cosmetic addition) was a smart choice. The best example i can think of this gen to prove this point is Dead Space a fantastic game in every sense (also in BOTH HD consoles) yet it's sales were not very good according to EA (poor advertising probably played a part there), luckily they gave it a sequel though.
"So, to conculde this post, its my view that Nintendo would be in a better position, if they had acquired more smaller devs too, especially more in the west. It would give them plenty talent they might lack, as well as new ways of thinking, ideas etc. Nintendo of japan could still do what they always do best, but a few more western devs could offer an alternative extra bullet to the overall gun, while being creatively free to create what they want (if that's possible. This kind of thing is not impossible for Nintendo to do and benefit from. And as a result of such alliances and varied content, Reggie wouldn't have to say things like what he has said."
So basically we come to the point not that Nintendo doesn't make good games, but that they don't make good western flavored games? i'm sorry man but this is HD mentality talking again, Nintendo did this to survive, they had to do this, and while they could have hung their IPs and go crazy milking the casual they didn't they in fact gave us their best lineup ever, if it's not enough for you (mainly cuz they are not acting like Sony and MS) that's your problem, at best i can advise you to just skip this gen on Nintendo and wait for the next one, i'm sure they'll be back in business the way you want them to, but right now, you're just gonna have to bite the bullet and enjoy games without HD or jump ship as you already have.
"[/i]
Um, Rare, Retro, Team Ninja? do they have to own them or just outsource?
"Expecting Nintedo to lookout for 3rd parties, is stupid more like. If studios request help, as many did, and Nintendo do nothing, is it any surprise they leave the Wii motel? "
And have you considered the reason they didn't is because none of the projects presented were actually worth it (I.E. the crap 3rd parties tried to sell us )? because if there is one common denominator of Nintendo's rare interventions is a minimum level of quality/effort seen in those cases (MH3 advertising, Sin & Punishment 2 publishing)? unlike the usual shovelware/half-baked crap/shoddy ports 3rd parties are accustomed to do.
Also one would expect 2+ decades of expertise companies like Capcom to kinda figure it out by themselves and IMO they did (Zack and Wiki? Darkside Chronicles?), they just seem content with doing crap, being scrooge when advertising and then whining (DR:CTYD, Spyborgs) when it doesn't sell.
When I say mature, I'm staying within the confines of the news post and staying on topic. And Heavy Rain I chose, only as an example of one mans vision (while that game is full of flaws and plot holes), that he chose to create on PS3 through what that system spec offered. I'll add stuff like Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Bioshock, Demon's Souls in there too, if it keeps you happy.
Like i said, The Last Story and Zangeki no Reinglev, to me at least seem like a good start, also i'm very aware that depending how they do Nintendo will choose to keep making more or consider it just not worth it. Of course if they are good and westerners (moronically) shun them cuz it's not what they expect on the Wii then at least you'll have an answer as to why Nintendo doesn't go into mature audience.
Come to think of it, isn't the "Mature" market a bit saturated with the X360/PS3? wouldn't it be business wise to cater to a different audience and sane cores (read: not graphix/tech whores) that like good games even if not HD instead of fighting a war against countless Goliaths? i'll leave you with that thought.
"Edgy, Nintendo had experts in these fields, having worked with Retro before hand, and Rare long before that, but they seem to have taken nothing learned away from those experiences, in regards to creating different games.They have access to Retro Studios for THREE METROID GAMES over so many years. And Rare made Goldeneye, which was their first FPS game. I'm aware of Super Mario RPG back on SNES and the Superstar Saga on GBA/DS, but the counter question I pose to you, is why Nintendo couldn't do this same thing you mention with Metroid Prime? CAN YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION? I see no evidence at all, that they've seeked to learn new ways of development, from western devs, and this is why Metroid gets farmed out. So, its okay for Nintendo to learn from Square (Super Mario RPG), but not from Rare (Goldeneye etc)or Retro Studios (Metroid Prime 1-3? Do you see how insane and backwardly anal that sounds. They should have learn from all of them, but clearly haven't."
For your quesion, have you considered that outsourcing would be wiser as FPSs are not exactly a genre they want to keep making beyond a few times as it is(and the few times they did have been legendary as Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and MP prove)? otherwise we'd be seeing an announcement for MP4 instead of Other M. Look at the fighting genre for reference, Nintendo took it and made it it's own by adding a few twists and created Smash Bros (it's developer do more than just fighters), a franchise we have seen once in each generation, could they do the same with the FPS genre? i don't know how and seems Nintendo doesn't either so why get studios that developed FPSs when outsourcing is a better option. Also, Rare? if evidence is telling something, is that Nintendo was Rare's crutch, not the other way around.
[i] "To answer your Sony point, Sony buying a few studios was a short cut, one that MS emulated, but that makes it no less valid, to reach a goal they are striving for. Time marches and waits for no man, and money talks and can do a lot for you, if invested right. The difference with Sony, like your Mario RPG one, is that they learned new tricks from all the talent they acquired, all of who had a varied experience of developing different game genre. From japan to the U.S and europe they span. Its this scope that Nintendo sorely lack. Jsut because Sony chose to go this route, it doesn't make GoW etc any less Sony product, from devs under their wing to create freely, and not be locked down on establish series (something Nintendo favour more over originality, Dinosaur Planet, the best example of this, and how meddling can go wrong).
Have a look here to see how many Sony have, in first and second party devs, underwing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment
To match that, look at Nintendo's list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divisions_of_Nintendo
" [/i]
But compare Sony's massive money hoard (even if games failed they could always fall back on electronics sales) to Nintendo's waning one when the Wii happened, also Sony with all that cash and studios has not gained a reputation even close to Nintendo's as a 1st party developer.
On Star Fox Adventure/Dinosaur planet, did it suffer in sales? as i recall it was the best seller in GC AND critically praised at that moment, would it have done better as a new IP? hmm, maybe, maybe not, but historically new IPs are hard sellers so maybe adding the SF name to it (IMO just a cosmetic addition) was a smart choice. The best example i can think of this gen to prove this point is Dead Space a fantastic game in every sense (also in BOTH HD consoles) yet it's sales were not very good according to EA (poor advertising probably played a part there), luckily they gave it a sequel though.
"So, to conculde this post, its my view that Nintendo would be in a better position, if they had acquired more smaller devs too, especially more in the west. It would give them plenty talent they might lack, as well as new ways of thinking, ideas etc. Nintendo of japan could still do what they always do best, but a few more western devs could offer an alternative extra bullet to the overall gun, while being creatively free to create what they want (if that's possible. This kind of thing is not impossible for Nintendo to do and benefit from. And as a result of such alliances and varied content, Reggie wouldn't have to say things like what he has said."
So basically we come to the point not that Nintendo doesn't make good games, but that they don't make good western flavored games? i'm sorry man but this is HD mentality talking again, Nintendo did this to survive, they had to do this, and while they could have hung their IPs and go crazy milking the casual they didn't they in fact gave us their best lineup ever, if it's not enough for you (mainly cuz they are not acting like Sony and MS) that's your problem, at best i can advise you to just skip this gen on Nintendo and wait for the next one, i'm sure they'll be back in business the way you want them to, but right now, you're just gonna have to bite the bullet and enjoy games without HD or jump ship as you already have.
I don't even own a Wii, but I think they've got a good reason for not wanting to go there. They're not just a 1st party developer, they're also a brand. I'm sure they want to maintain their "family friendly" image.
The Wii has sold gamers out in order to make a boatload of cash. That's fine, Nintendo is a business. The issue is that the Wii is basically the equivalent of the Furby...high demand for a while, especially when there's an artificial shortage, but the novelty wears off.
Once Sony & MS saturate the market with motion control crap and casual gamers move on to the next things (probably Farmville 2.0 or something) then Nintendo will have to look up to the core gamers they've been ignoring this generation and shout "save us".
And we will look down and whisper "no".
Once Sony & MS saturate the market with motion control crap and casual gamers move on to the next things (probably Farmville 2.0 or something) then Nintendo will have to look up to the core gamers they've been ignoring this generation and shout "save us".
And we will look down and whisper "no".
@Ubersuntzu -- They could pretty easily create a different brand under which they release M-rated games. I even thought of a name for it: Sintendo.
Famicom = FAMILY Computer. Nintendo has always been family-oriented. People complaining 27 years later is kinda funny.
They don't want to make them because they've become a company that markets to the family demographic. They have the idea that they're image will be tarnished with a single game, even if the game is a masterpiece. The COULD just let more 3rd party's make mature games but they wont purely because if one of those companies managed to figure out how to make a game look and play great on the Wii while making a game worth sticking with (yes some have but they cant be considered big names) then Nintendo would look bad. Nintendo NEVER wants someone to out stage them before they can do it themselves. Nintendo has been like this since the SNES, at least.
Sadly the most maturity we'll get from the company proper is the deepness of Zelda and the Shoot'em up-ness of Metroid.
I'm actually surprised Reggie didn't just come out and said "well Team NINJA is working with us on the new Metroid, can you get any more mature then that?"
Sadly the most maturity we'll get from the company proper is the deepness of Zelda and the Shoot'em up-ness of Metroid.
I'm actually surprised Reggie didn't just come out and said "well Team NINJA is working with us on the new Metroid, can you get any more mature then that?"
^ Nintendo didn't BECOME a company that markets to the family demographic, that's how Nintendo has always been. See two posts above. And Nintendo is not stopping anyone from making awesome, "mature" games for Wii.
What defines a "mature" game? Blood. violence and guns? Sometimes I like stuff like that but so many games are "mature". I want games that are thoughtful and fun.
Things change all the time in any industry, and failure to adapt is like slow nails to hands and feet. Any well run company should to their best to keep ahead or up with of the competition. Nintendo could easily create a different brand or sub label, whatever, to get those games their main brand can't create, its not that hard to do, and still keep your image intact. Regardless of the whys and wherefores of Disney's doing so, I only use the Disney analogy, because they are they only big, well known entertainment company that likes to maintian its 'family friendly' image similar to Nintendo. And regardless of whether Nintedno buy outright or invest in shares of, something in that direction would aid them, and loosen third party need. As I said before, this is currently too entrenched in japanese studios, and that needs to spread more like Sony, more global.
Come on, third party drought is nothing new on Nintendo home consoles, as it began on N64 (I was there, and remember it well, back then I didn't understand it as much, but I now understand why it was so) and never really stopped. If the hardware is always gimped, that third parties don't want to touch or work with it, you either create a better spec system (and always strive to do so) and accomadate their needs too, or you go the way Nintendo are going now. There are no guarantees, and if the sales of Wii dip, or casual gamers loose interest in Wii, its going to spell a lot of trouble on the horizon.
Outsourcing would possibly ease up some of the pressure, but who do you outsource to, when developers trained on the latest cutting edge tech have to backstep a decade in creating something. The only avenue to really outsource to is more japanese devs who are behind the technical curve somewhat, but enough for Wii. However, those devs will unlikely create the kind of content needed to bring Nintendo up to speed and variety, of say Sony for instance. I raise outsourcing because someone else here mentioned it, but its still side stepping the key topic of this post and is a different issue at best.
@Rn88
Its still about Nintendo. Nintendo still haven't asked themselves and addressed the real question, why do third parties prefer them over us, for a THIRD home console generation (about 16 years or so and counting). This is no bizarre, shot in the dark, accident, but a chain of events. Neither have they seeked to attract them back with a better system each time, or as I say, just be done with them and create their own studios, to bring forth the games in game genres they lack in, and thus side step third parties if they won't meet their needs. If the strength is in Nintendo's games, so much so, that third parties sometimes can't hack it and break even, such investment by Nintendo in creating new studios for new IP across the content range board, would only help them further.
However, Nintendo doing their diddakoi like, Oliver Twist impression (can I have some more third party games, please), when their pockets are full of money and sweet treats (enough to see that Wii won't starve, and then some). They should be walking away, chocolate all around their mouth, saying 'Yeah fuck relying on you 3rd party guys, I'll set up my own studios, to do my own hot shit games, kid games, puzzle games, mature games, the whole shabbang.' and walking away boldly. They clearly have the talent and money to do so, IMO, and shouldn't resort to what seems like lamely begging or protesting for what they lack.
'I know my Wii machine looks like a tramp, but it works and I'm not going to change it for you or anybodies.' Its a choice of hang with this talented tramp or not. Most devs choose to leave the tramp, and go with what they se as better company.
Lol, you're going to use Famicom name as a reason, not to change and adapt to market conditions? That's laughable. Famicom was called such in japan, never outside it. Besides, the market is no longer about only japan only anymore, so that's kind of irrelevant. Image can be managed and adjusted. Like make up, it can show a public face and still pull many faces and strings, behind such a mask. Disney have done this very well. When I think of Disney, I now think of Pirates of the Carribean, Samurai Pizza Cats, and their awesome animation, than Mickey Mouse himself. In the same regard, I think that Nintendo should be about more than just Mario, Zelda but much more. Wii Fit, Brain Training and such are a positive part of differing such adjustments, so there's really no reason at all why Nintendo couldn't go further down such lines, with a broader range of content. Where there's a will, there's a way. Nintendo just have to discover that will and embrace it.
@Edgy
Its obviously too late for Nintendo to act now with such content for Wii, as the customers doves have flown from the coup, but they should be thinking to the future, even though their money bin is full and perhaps over stuffed.
Smart investment and business are key to keeping them in the game, and that's where some of their coffers should be going. I know they could have bowed out of the home console business, but they only have largely themselves to blame for that. Like I said, where we are with Nintendo now, is another point on a long tail of events leading from back on N64 (while the tech aids DS now, it put a neagtive nail in their home market, a rusty nail that's still there), this didn't just start with Wii. In a similar way to Sega, their own bad decisions led Nintendo to the point of no return. It shouldn't have taken them looking into the abyss, and Sega falling below, to get their act together. They are very lucky, that people bit hard on Wii. While they are back from that point of no return, I see their complacent ways coming back to haunt them and their home market luck running out soon, as £/$ signs fill their eyes and cloud their vision.
Edgy, I never said Nintendo don't make good games, I said their games lack variety and range, and could use some western influence to broad it. Why can't we have the best of east and west from them too. This isn't HD mentality (don;t know who coined that, because its unlikely that Wii's successor won't be HD) as you put it, just my individual thoughts, from a wider market viewpoint. You may see this as some kind of anti-japanese blasphemy, but I see it as progress. Ask Sega, who are doing just this same thing.
Sega, (I use them as a counter japanese example) they still create cool japanese IP (Sonic 4, Phantasy Star Zero, Mario and Sonic games), while now in the publishing game, and linking up with devs in both east (Platinum Games) and west (Obsidian, Gearbox, Rebellion etc). While this is publishing, a different angle, it still shows Sega willingness to be flexable and adjust in a competitive market.
Come on, third party drought is nothing new on Nintendo home consoles, as it began on N64 (I was there, and remember it well, back then I didn't understand it as much, but I now understand why it was so) and never really stopped. If the hardware is always gimped, that third parties don't want to touch or work with it, you either create a better spec system (and always strive to do so) and accomadate their needs too, or you go the way Nintendo are going now. There are no guarantees, and if the sales of Wii dip, or casual gamers loose interest in Wii, its going to spell a lot of trouble on the horizon.
Outsourcing would possibly ease up some of the pressure, but who do you outsource to, when developers trained on the latest cutting edge tech have to backstep a decade in creating something. The only avenue to really outsource to is more japanese devs who are behind the technical curve somewhat, but enough for Wii. However, those devs will unlikely create the kind of content needed to bring Nintendo up to speed and variety, of say Sony for instance. I raise outsourcing because someone else here mentioned it, but its still side stepping the key topic of this post and is a different issue at best.
@Rn88
Its still about Nintendo. Nintendo still haven't asked themselves and addressed the real question, why do third parties prefer them over us, for a THIRD home console generation (about 16 years or so and counting). This is no bizarre, shot in the dark, accident, but a chain of events. Neither have they seeked to attract them back with a better system each time, or as I say, just be done with them and create their own studios, to bring forth the games in game genres they lack in, and thus side step third parties if they won't meet their needs. If the strength is in Nintendo's games, so much so, that third parties sometimes can't hack it and break even, such investment by Nintendo in creating new studios for new IP across the content range board, would only help them further.
However, Nintendo doing their diddakoi like, Oliver Twist impression (can I have some more third party games, please), when their pockets are full of money and sweet treats (enough to see that Wii won't starve, and then some). They should be walking away, chocolate all around their mouth, saying 'Yeah fuck relying on you 3rd party guys, I'll set up my own studios, to do my own hot shit games, kid games, puzzle games, mature games, the whole shabbang.' and walking away boldly. They clearly have the talent and money to do so, IMO, and shouldn't resort to what seems like lamely begging or protesting for what they lack.
'I know my Wii machine looks like a tramp, but it works and I'm not going to change it for you or anybodies.' Its a choice of hang with this talented tramp or not. Most devs choose to leave the tramp, and go with what they se as better company.
Lol, you're going to use Famicom name as a reason, not to change and adapt to market conditions? That's laughable. Famicom was called such in japan, never outside it. Besides, the market is no longer about only japan only anymore, so that's kind of irrelevant. Image can be managed and adjusted. Like make up, it can show a public face and still pull many faces and strings, behind such a mask. Disney have done this very well. When I think of Disney, I now think of Pirates of the Carribean, Samurai Pizza Cats, and their awesome animation, than Mickey Mouse himself. In the same regard, I think that Nintendo should be about more than just Mario, Zelda but much more. Wii Fit, Brain Training and such are a positive part of differing such adjustments, so there's really no reason at all why Nintendo couldn't go further down such lines, with a broader range of content. Where there's a will, there's a way. Nintendo just have to discover that will and embrace it.
@Edgy
Its obviously too late for Nintendo to act now with such content for Wii, as the customers doves have flown from the coup, but they should be thinking to the future, even though their money bin is full and perhaps over stuffed.
Smart investment and business are key to keeping them in the game, and that's where some of their coffers should be going. I know they could have bowed out of the home console business, but they only have largely themselves to blame for that. Like I said, where we are with Nintendo now, is another point on a long tail of events leading from back on N64 (while the tech aids DS now, it put a neagtive nail in their home market, a rusty nail that's still there), this didn't just start with Wii. In a similar way to Sega, their own bad decisions led Nintendo to the point of no return. It shouldn't have taken them looking into the abyss, and Sega falling below, to get their act together. They are very lucky, that people bit hard on Wii. While they are back from that point of no return, I see their complacent ways coming back to haunt them and their home market luck running out soon, as £/$ signs fill their eyes and cloud their vision.
Edgy, I never said Nintendo don't make good games, I said their games lack variety and range, and could use some western influence to broad it. Why can't we have the best of east and west from them too. This isn't HD mentality (don;t know who coined that, because its unlikely that Wii's successor won't be HD) as you put it, just my individual thoughts, from a wider market viewpoint. You may see this as some kind of anti-japanese blasphemy, but I see it as progress. Ask Sega, who are doing just this same thing.
Sega, (I use them as a counter japanese example) they still create cool japanese IP (Sonic 4, Phantasy Star Zero, Mario and Sonic games), while now in the publishing game, and linking up with devs in both east (Platinum Games) and west (Obsidian, Gearbox, Rebellion etc). While this is publishing, a different angle, it still shows Sega willingness to be flexable and adjust in a competitive market.
@Cowboy TTop: "Its obviously too late for Nintendo to act now with such content for Wii, as the customers doves have flown from the coup, but they should be thinking to the future, even though their money bin is full and perhaps over stuffed."
Really? here's a few examples that contradict that theory
1)the comments on this thread are pretty telling that your theory is not all that solid, i mean guys that bash the Wii in every Wii related thread said they'd buy a Wii for that game!.
2) Historically Nintendo has done this before, remember the gameboy? it was dying back in 2000 when a little piece of quality software called Pokemon came out for it, and we all know what happened.
3)The DS was pretty much shunned for 2 years and called a shovelware dump for most of those, and yet again we all know how that ended (and shovelware is still there today!).
"Smart investment and business are key to keeping them in the game, and that's where some of their coffers should be going. I know they could have bowed out of the home console business, but they only have largely themselves to blame for that. Like I said, where we are with Nintendo now, is another point on a long tail of events leading from back on N64 (while the tech aids DS now, it put a neagtive nail in their home market, a rusty nail that's still there), this didn't just start with Wii. In a similar way to Sega, their own bad decisions led Nintendo to the point of no return. It shouldn't have taken them looking into the abyss, and Sega falling below, to get their act together. They are very lucky, that people bit hard on Wii. While they are back from that point of no return, I see their complacent ways coming back to haunt them and their home market luck running out soon, as £/$ signs fill their eyes and cloud their vision. "
And can you think of a smarter investment than the mad dime the Wii has produced right now? what makes you think they aren't already investing some of that cash into their future plans (WiiHD, DS2, better Wii games) or are you really gonna blame them for being secretive and cautious?, also are you bashing on the DS for the Wii's existence? 2 of the best sold gaming hardware in history (recently the DS surpassed the PS2 BTW) that house games to every tier/genre in gaming? seriously?.
No, they are not lucky, they just did their homework, they researched, analyzed and saw that taking an alternative course of action might be better than the usual "lets do what the others do and release a powerhouse system that has some good games, is 'innovative' and does all kinds of stuff but that may or may not do well", but above all they had the huge titanium balls to actually try that alternative when everyone else mocked the shit out of it.
Sony an MS will be lucky if people bite their MC attempts with the quality software they've shown so far. Will current gen haunt Nintendo? i dunno, but respect from the industry and gamers, and being #1 in the last race has certainly done shit for Sony on this one (mainly du to their arrogance, sounds familiar?), i'd say that by the same token if Nintendo released an HD system with great games in next gen with the profits from the current gen, gamers that now whine/mock them would flee there without much thinking, and i'm sure that they would still come up with a way to maintain the casuals somehow, at least that's how i see it.
"Edgy, I never said Nintendo don't make good games, I said their games lack variety and range, and could use some western influence to broad it. Why can't we have the best of east and west from them too. This isn't HD mentality (don;t know who coined that, because its unlikely that Wii's successor won't be HD) as you put it, just my individual thoughts, from a wider market viewpoint. You may see this as some kind of anti-japanese blasphemy, but I see it as progress. Ask Sega, who are doing just this same thing."
No variety and range?, let's name a few shall we?:
-Mario Galaxy: Platformer
-Smash Bros: Fighter
-Zelda: Adventure
-Wii Fit: Sports Trainer
-Wii Sports: Mini game collection
-Metroid Prime: FPS
-Punch Out: Sport game
-Mario kart: race game
-Paper Mario: Light RPG
-Link's Crossbow Training: on rail shooter.
This brings me to question, what exactly do you define as "western" that isn't DLC, HD, hard drive use, blood, gore, sex or whatever like that.
I created the "HD mentality" phrase (at least here, if someone came up with it before me i had no idea and i'll acknowledge the author provided a link or something) and i use it to define the mindset of gamers that say that Nintendo has betrayed/abandoned/failed the core because they refuse to follow MS and Sony in the HD/hard drive use/DLC/online gameplay race.
"Sega, (I use them as a counter japanese example) they still create cool japanese IP (Sonic 4, Phantasy Star Zero, Mario and Sonic games), while now in the publishing game, and linking up with devs in both east (Platinum Games) and west (Obsidian, Gearbox, Rebellion etc). While this is publishing, a different angle, it still shows Sega willingness to be flexable and adjust in a competitive market."
The fact that you bring SEGA into this and can't see the FAIL in suggesting Nintendo to follow the "lets do what the others do and release a powerhouse system that has good games, is innovative and does all kinds of stuff bu that may or may not do well" plan which is precisely what killed SEGA is ironic beyond words, also the Sonic and Phantasy Star IPs have released cool games lately?. As for the rest:
-Platinum games is independent, just currently on a 4 game contract
-Gearbox is also independent
-Obsidinan ALSO independent
-Rebellion, didn't you bash these guys for their AvP work and that they had a poor track record?
So to sum things up, you claim that Nintendo should've gone into the HD/high-tech wars and buy western studios as weapons setting SEGA as an example, the very company that died as a hardware maker by following that strategy and that as a software maker has released crappy iterations of their IPs and outsources some work instead of doing all in house (just like Nintendo does)... do you understand why i'm completely mindboggled by your words right now or should i draw a diagram?
Really? here's a few examples that contradict that theory
1)the comments on this thread are pretty telling that your theory is not all that solid, i mean guys that bash the Wii in every Wii related thread said they'd buy a Wii for that game!.
2) Historically Nintendo has done this before, remember the gameboy? it was dying back in 2000 when a little piece of quality software called Pokemon came out for it, and we all know what happened.
3)The DS was pretty much shunned for 2 years and called a shovelware dump for most of those, and yet again we all know how that ended (and shovelware is still there today!).
"Smart investment and business are key to keeping them in the game, and that's where some of their coffers should be going. I know they could have bowed out of the home console business, but they only have largely themselves to blame for that. Like I said, where we are with Nintendo now, is another point on a long tail of events leading from back on N64 (while the tech aids DS now, it put a neagtive nail in their home market, a rusty nail that's still there), this didn't just start with Wii. In a similar way to Sega, their own bad decisions led Nintendo to the point of no return. It shouldn't have taken them looking into the abyss, and Sega falling below, to get their act together. They are very lucky, that people bit hard on Wii. While they are back from that point of no return, I see their complacent ways coming back to haunt them and their home market luck running out soon, as £/$ signs fill their eyes and cloud their vision. "
And can you think of a smarter investment than the mad dime the Wii has produced right now? what makes you think they aren't already investing some of that cash into their future plans (WiiHD, DS2, better Wii games) or are you really gonna blame them for being secretive and cautious?, also are you bashing on the DS for the Wii's existence? 2 of the best sold gaming hardware in history (recently the DS surpassed the PS2 BTW) that house games to every tier/genre in gaming? seriously?.
No, they are not lucky, they just did their homework, they researched, analyzed and saw that taking an alternative course of action might be better than the usual "lets do what the others do and release a powerhouse system that has some good games, is 'innovative' and does all kinds of stuff but that may or may not do well", but above all they had the huge titanium balls to actually try that alternative when everyone else mocked the shit out of it.
Sony an MS will be lucky if people bite their MC attempts with the quality software they've shown so far. Will current gen haunt Nintendo? i dunno, but respect from the industry and gamers, and being #1 in the last race has certainly done shit for Sony on this one (mainly du to their arrogance, sounds familiar?), i'd say that by the same token if Nintendo released an HD system with great games in next gen with the profits from the current gen, gamers that now whine/mock them would flee there without much thinking, and i'm sure that they would still come up with a way to maintain the casuals somehow, at least that's how i see it.
"Edgy, I never said Nintendo don't make good games, I said their games lack variety and range, and could use some western influence to broad it. Why can't we have the best of east and west from them too. This isn't HD mentality (don;t know who coined that, because its unlikely that Wii's successor won't be HD) as you put it, just my individual thoughts, from a wider market viewpoint. You may see this as some kind of anti-japanese blasphemy, but I see it as progress. Ask Sega, who are doing just this same thing."
No variety and range?, let's name a few shall we?:
-Mario Galaxy: Platformer
-Smash Bros: Fighter
-Zelda: Adventure
-Wii Fit: Sports Trainer
-Wii Sports: Mini game collection
-Metroid Prime: FPS
-Punch Out: Sport game
-Mario kart: race game
-Paper Mario: Light RPG
-Link's Crossbow Training: on rail shooter.
This brings me to question, what exactly do you define as "western" that isn't DLC, HD, hard drive use, blood, gore, sex or whatever like that.
I created the "HD mentality" phrase (at least here, if someone came up with it before me i had no idea and i'll acknowledge the author provided a link or something) and i use it to define the mindset of gamers that say that Nintendo has betrayed/abandoned/failed the core because they refuse to follow MS and Sony in the HD/hard drive use/DLC/online gameplay race.
"Sega, (I use them as a counter japanese example) they still create cool japanese IP (Sonic 4, Phantasy Star Zero, Mario and Sonic games), while now in the publishing game, and linking up with devs in both east (Platinum Games) and west (Obsidian, Gearbox, Rebellion etc). While this is publishing, a different angle, it still shows Sega willingness to be flexable and adjust in a competitive market."
The fact that you bring SEGA into this and can't see the FAIL in suggesting Nintendo to follow the "lets do what the others do and release a powerhouse system that has good games, is innovative and does all kinds of stuff bu that may or may not do well" plan which is precisely what killed SEGA is ironic beyond words, also the Sonic and Phantasy Star IPs have released cool games lately?. As for the rest:
-Platinum games is independent, just currently on a 4 game contract
-Gearbox is also independent
-Obsidinan ALSO independent
-Rebellion, didn't you bash these guys for their AvP work and that they had a poor track record?
So to sum things up, you claim that Nintendo should've gone into the HD/high-tech wars and buy western studios as weapons setting SEGA as an example, the very company that died as a hardware maker by following that strategy and that as a software maker has released crappy iterations of their IPs and outsources some work instead of doing all in house (just like Nintendo does)... do you understand why i'm completely mindboggled by your words right now or should i draw a diagram?
Whatever, I said what I have to say, and I still think its not impossible for Nintendo to do so and succeed as they are. You've still given me no valid reason why they can't, because there isn't really any. They can afford to do so, but lack the will.
But like you say, for Nintendo to even try more mature content, like Reggie is going on about, is blasphemy and the sky would surely fall, wouldn't it. Yeah, right Mr fanboy.
But like you say, for Nintendo to even try more mature content, like Reggie is going on about, is blasphemy and the sky would surely fall, wouldn't it. Yeah, right Mr fanboy.
@COwboy TTop:
"Whatever, I said what I have to say, and I still think its not impossible for Nintendo to do so and succeed as they are. You've still given me no valid reason why they can't, because there isn't really any. They can afford to do so, but lack the will. "
Sure, besides the "we tried it before and failed and if we do it again and fail we'll go bankrupt" reason i admit there is not a single valid one for them not to.
But by the same token do you one not to play/enjoy their games besides the "Nintendo is not doing what MS/Sony (I.E. using HD, Hard drives and online)" is doing?
"But like you say, for Nintendo to even try more mature content, like Reggie is going on about, is blasphemy and the sky would surely fall, wouldn't it. Yeah, right Mr fanboy."
Did i say that at any point? i did say they where taking slow steps in that direcction (very wise IMO) and that they'd take a decision whether to continue that path or not depending on the outcome of those, if their games are not good/fun enough for you unless they are in HD that's your problem Mr. Graphix Wh0r3
"Whatever, I said what I have to say, and I still think its not impossible for Nintendo to do so and succeed as they are. You've still given me no valid reason why they can't, because there isn't really any. They can afford to do so, but lack the will. "
Sure, besides the "we tried it before and failed and if we do it again and fail we'll go bankrupt" reason i admit there is not a single valid one for them not to.
But by the same token do you one not to play/enjoy their games besides the "Nintendo is not doing what MS/Sony (I.E. using HD, Hard drives and online)" is doing?
"But like you say, for Nintendo to even try more mature content, like Reggie is going on about, is blasphemy and the sky would surely fall, wouldn't it. Yeah, right Mr fanboy."
Did i say that at any point? i did say they where taking slow steps in that direcction (very wise IMO) and that they'd take a decision whether to continue that path or not depending on the outcome of those, if their games are not good/fun enough for you unless they are in HD that's your problem Mr. Graphix Wh0r3
It's good to know people are working on their dissertations in this thread. I'd read the abstract, if one is available.
follow
