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I'm getting so sick of online passes from stupid executives that just want more bloody money on top of millions that they already fucking have!
I hardly ever even play online but the fact is that these people are just greedy money grabbers who have no right to be basically stealing from used gamers for NO FUCKING REASON!
Argh!
I hardly ever even play online but the fact is that these people are just greedy money grabbers who have no right to be basically stealing from used gamers for NO FUCKING REASON!
Argh!
"In any case, that's another game rocking an online pass. With each confirmation, it becomes a little more of a "Captain Obvious" moment, which is the insidious part. It's getting banal and normal, which is pretty much what the likes of Electronic Arts wants. "
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Oh man.. I sort of love this. It's not that I'm purely a sadist (as I think online passes are a GOOD thing or, at the very least, not a BAD thing), but I am beginning to get a sort of twisted joy out the cycle of bad editorialism, sensationalistic coverage, and rage filled comments from whiny, spoiled "gamers" who would rather steal or buy used than make a contribution to the industry.
WAH WAH WAH! MY GAME REQUIRES ME TO ENTER DIGITS BEFORE I CAN PLAY ONLINE! I HAVE SUCH GREAT 'PRINCIPLES' THAT I WILL NEVER GAME AGAIN!
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Oh man.. I sort of love this. It's not that I'm purely a sadist (as I think online passes are a GOOD thing or, at the very least, not a BAD thing), but I am beginning to get a sort of twisted joy out the cycle of bad editorialism, sensationalistic coverage, and rage filled comments from whiny, spoiled "gamers" who would rather steal or buy used than make a contribution to the industry.
WAH WAH WAH! MY GAME REQUIRES ME TO ENTER DIGITS BEFORE I CAN PLAY ONLINE! I HAVE SUCH GREAT 'PRINCIPLES' THAT I WILL NEVER GAME AGAIN!
I never really thought of the fact that the argument of "servers need money to run" doesn't make sense, since selling a used copy IS NOT a duplicate copy. Makes their argument even less valid (not like it had much validity to begin with, mind you).
Hmm. Seeing as I already pre-ordered and paid in full it's not a huge deal to me either way, but it's interesting to me that EA has tried to usurp Activision and the MW series in every conceivable way and yet it is Activision that is able to support the largest multiplayer game series of this generation by NOT supporting online passes. If EA had to copy something from the MW series, I wish it was theit stance on online passes.
Hmm. Seeing as I already pre-ordered and paid in full it's not a huge deal to me either way, but it's interesting to me that EA has tried to usurp Activision and the MW series in every conceivable way and yet it is Activision that is able to support the largest multiplayer game series of this generation by NOT supporting online passes. If EA had to copy something from the MW series, I wish it was theit stance on online passes.
So how many big games coming out this holiday WONT have a pass? is it confirmed for MW3? Batman, Battlefield, Uncharted, Need for speed (Safe to assume)..which leaves MW3, Skyrim, and what..Halo: CE?
I'm not sure its what EA wants when I say I will not purchase this game. To be fair the Online pass is only one thing in a long line of things that already made me come to the decision not to buy the game.
"...used copy adds two people to a server, which goes against the laws of physics, last time I checked."
LOL Brilliant!!! :D
LOL Brilliant!!! :D
So it's either play a Michael-Bay-film-wannabe or put up with this dickery? Well looks like I have some extra money to spend.
EA must have it hard. I mean just to run a server they have to sell twice as many games as they normally do. That's harsh. Poor EA. Poor DICE. They must have a really hard time upkeeping all the servers from their previous games that don't use online passes. POOR EA.
I actually want to end every sentence with "Poor EA" from now on.
I actually want to end every sentence with "Poor EA" from now on.
Why can't they just do the VIP pass like they did in BC2? Last I heard, that worked pretty well AND you were still able to play online if you bought it used, just with a restricted number of maps. I swear EA, it seems by now you aren't even trying to give the illusion of pleaseing your customers.
"I swear EA, it seems by now you aren't even trying to give the illusion of pleaseing your customers."
Technically speaking, they are pleasing their customers. If you buy the game from them, you get the online pass. If you buy it used from someone who had already used the online pass, you don't have it. However, if you buy it used, you aren't really a customer of theirs. You become one when you buy an online pass.
So, yeah. They are pleasing their customers. You guys just have a really dumb idea of what the term customer implies.
Technically speaking, they are pleasing their customers. If you buy the game from them, you get the online pass. If you buy it used from someone who had already used the online pass, you don't have it. However, if you buy it used, you aren't really a customer of theirs. You become one when you buy an online pass.
So, yeah. They are pleasing their customers. You guys just have a really dumb idea of what the term customer implies.
Jim, you are really not getting this, are you? What they are saying is that they need to make money to maintain the server, and used games don't give them any of that.
While the whole online pass conecpt could be done better, this isn't just EA looking for short-term profit (although it's probably that aswell), its also about the developers actually making money not just to maintain the servers, but to feed their kids, have a house and all that...
While the whole online pass conecpt could be done better, this isn't just EA looking for short-term profit (although it's probably that aswell), its also about the developers actually making money not just to maintain the servers, but to feed their kids, have a house and all that...
There is no economic need for online passes, the thought that a strong used market harms the new market is laughable. There is no defense of these kinds of actions, they are little more than publishers seeking new revenue streams to the detriment of consumers in a time where the industry is enjoying the kind of strong growth no other form of entertainment even comes close to.
People who defend online passes as necessary are uninformed at best.
People who defend online passes as necessary are uninformed at best.
Battlefield 3. Another monument in EA's recent legacy of 'we want to compete without being competitive'.
@XxBriThr8xX
"its also about the developers actually making money not just to maintain the servers, but to feed their kids, have a house and all that..."
The industry is worth $60 billion (est.) this year, and according to current growth models, it will be worth $70 billion by 2014. The industry is not hurting. It is, in fact, thriving in ways no other entertainment medium is, during a time where the economy is terrible. There is no "poor developers" argument to be made.
"its also about the developers actually making money not just to maintain the servers, but to feed their kids, have a house and all that..."
The industry is worth $60 billion (est.) this year, and according to current growth models, it will be worth $70 billion by 2014. The industry is not hurting. It is, in fact, thriving in ways no other entertainment medium is, during a time where the economy is terrible. There is no "poor developers" argument to be made.
@ XxBriThr8xX
I think, at the end of the day, whiny "gamers" simply have no idea how money works. They think that more money in "greedy, evil corporate hands" is just money that disappears or evaporates. That money doesn't do any good! It just goes back to the video game developers, and what did THEY ever do for gamers? Well.. you know. Besides making all the games we love, which are the entire reason for our gaming community to begin with.
The fact of the matter is that more money going to game developers means: 1. More games, 2. Riskier games (if they can assume 10% higher profits on average, they can greenlight games that otherwise wouldn't be greenlit), 3. Potentially, cheaper games, although I don't want to get into a big technical economics argument here.
However, when you buy used, money goes to GameStop. Not to the guys who actually MADE the game you supposedly love as a "gamer." What does GameStop do with it? They open more upscale pawn shops.
Anything that leads to more money going to developers and less to GameStop is GOOD for the gaming industry.
And, before you all bitch at me that I must be rich to buy new.. no.. I just look around a bit. Used CheapAssGamer or SlickDeals or SOMETHING and buy new games for like half the God damn listed price. Used games are like 5 bucks off. Actual sales give you far greater savings than that.. and some of the money still goes to the programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and game designers who worked hard to make a product you enjoy.
I think, at the end of the day, whiny "gamers" simply have no idea how money works. They think that more money in "greedy, evil corporate hands" is just money that disappears or evaporates. That money doesn't do any good! It just goes back to the video game developers, and what did THEY ever do for gamers? Well.. you know. Besides making all the games we love, which are the entire reason for our gaming community to begin with.
The fact of the matter is that more money going to game developers means: 1. More games, 2. Riskier games (if they can assume 10% higher profits on average, they can greenlight games that otherwise wouldn't be greenlit), 3. Potentially, cheaper games, although I don't want to get into a big technical economics argument here.
However, when you buy used, money goes to GameStop. Not to the guys who actually MADE the game you supposedly love as a "gamer." What does GameStop do with it? They open more upscale pawn shops.
Anything that leads to more money going to developers and less to GameStop is GOOD for the gaming industry.
And, before you all bitch at me that I must be rich to buy new.. no.. I just look around a bit. Used CheapAssGamer or SlickDeals or SOMETHING and buy new games for like half the God damn listed price. Used games are like 5 bucks off. Actual sales give you far greater savings than that.. and some of the money still goes to the programmers, artists, musicians, writers, and game designers who worked hard to make a product you enjoy.
"The industry is worth $60 billion (est.) this year, and according to current growth models, it will be worth $70 billion by 2014. The industry is not hurting. It is, in fact, thriving in ways no other entertainment medium is, during a time where the economy is terrible. There is no "poor developers" argument to be made."
Yep. The industry is in such good shape that developers never go out of business; producers never close up shop; and games are never skipped because of worries over profit:cost ratios.
Yep. More money to the industry just disappears down a black hole. Because, you know, that's how economics works.
(LOL!!!!)
"There is no economic need for online passes, the thought that a strong used market harms the new market is laughable."
I guess if you just SAY the used game market has no impact, then it has no impact, right? Because thinking about it for more like 5 seconds makes it seem damn near obvious that used games hurt the industry.
Whatever. Keep being a parasite on the gaming industry. I just wish you would stop acting so God damn preachy about being parasites.
Yep. The industry is in such good shape that developers never go out of business; producers never close up shop; and games are never skipped because of worries over profit:cost ratios.
Yep. More money to the industry just disappears down a black hole. Because, you know, that's how economics works.
(LOL!!!!)
"There is no economic need for online passes, the thought that a strong used market harms the new market is laughable."
I guess if you just SAY the used game market has no impact, then it has no impact, right? Because thinking about it for more like 5 seconds makes it seem damn near obvious that used games hurt the industry.
Whatever. Keep being a parasite on the gaming industry. I just wish you would stop acting so God damn preachy about being parasites.
@killias2
A strong used market is a sign of a strong new market, they are inherently tied to the exact same market forces. You cannot make a case that the used market is hurting anything in light of the astronomical growth the gaming industry has undergone in the last half decade.
There is zero proof that Gamestop harms the industry, and taking a single look at their anual revenue report proves how much money they contribute directly to the gaming industry at large, as well as consumers. There are better choices, for sure, but your assessment that Gamestop is harming the industry is flat out wrong.
A strong used market is a sign of a strong new market, they are inherently tied to the exact same market forces. You cannot make a case that the used market is hurting anything in light of the astronomical growth the gaming industry has undergone in the last half decade.
There is zero proof that Gamestop harms the industry, and taking a single look at their anual revenue report proves how much money they contribute directly to the gaming industry at large, as well as consumers. There are better choices, for sure, but your assessment that Gamestop is harming the industry is flat out wrong.
@ Jim Sterling
"He justified this with the false argument, "Because servers cost money, and used games don't make developers any money." "
It seems as though you're ignoring the second half of the guys statement about used games not making developers any money, because that part isn't false lol At least the guy was (somewhat) honest about it.
"He justified this with the false argument, "Because servers cost money, and used games don't make developers any money." "
It seems as though you're ignoring the second half of the guys statement about used games not making developers any money, because that part isn't false lol At least the guy was (somewhat) honest about it.
@killias
I know you think you are making a point, but what you are suggesting goes against basic economic principle. You have nothing but anecdotes, none of which have any real basis in fact whatsoever, while the numbers speak for themselves.
I implore you to provide any evidence backing anything you've said. Anything at all, because the industry itself has not provided any, and havent so much as tried to.
I know you think you are making a point, but what you are suggesting goes against basic economic principle. You have nothing but anecdotes, none of which have any real basis in fact whatsoever, while the numbers speak for themselves.
I implore you to provide any evidence backing anything you've said. Anything at all, because the industry itself has not provided any, and havent so much as tried to.
"A strong used market is a sign of a strong new market, they are inherently tied to the exact same market forces. You cannot make a case that the used market is hurting anything in light of the astronomical growth the gaming industry has undergone in the last half decade. "
Again, you're showing that you don't understand the first thing about economics. Just because the gaming industry is healthy overall doesn't mean that bad things don't have repercussions. If the gaming industry could be sure about a 10% higher profit on each game, for example, then you would see more games developed, higher budgets on games, and RISKIER games developed. You know all that whining about repetition and lack of originality in games? Sequelitis? That's driven largely by the kind of industry we have. If there was a bit more assured profit, there would be a bit more risk-taking. Not a LOT more, but probably enough for some interesting games here and there. You could also save a few studios who were on the border between successful and failure.
"There is zero proof that Gamestop harms the industry, and taking a single look at their anual revenue report proves how much money they contribute directly to the gaming industry at large, as well as consumers. There are better choices, for sure, but your assessment that Gamestop is harming the industry is flat out wrong."
Again, what exactly is your argument? Used games are blatantly harmful for the industry.
Anyone who buys used is a potential new game customer. Used games are far closer to "lost sales" than pirated games because you have clear evidence of intent to purchase.
The only argument that really stands about used games is that they somehow finance new game purchases. I highly question the impact of this, but, even if it is true, the world would be better off without used games. Why? Because, if used games really have that impact, it should lead to less new game sales. The result of this would be quicker drops in prices and (potentially, in the long-run) lower new prices to begin with.
Why is that strictly better? Again, because ANY DOLLAR THAT GOES TO GAMESTOP IS A DOLLAR THAT DOESN'T GO INTO GAME DEVELOPMENT!
I also love the figures you toss out nonchalantly. From what I gather, the U.S. console market is around 8-10 billion dollars a year. GameStop's used game revenue, however, floats around 1-2 billion dollars a year.
Yeah.
Again, you're showing that you don't understand the first thing about economics. Just because the gaming industry is healthy overall doesn't mean that bad things don't have repercussions. If the gaming industry could be sure about a 10% higher profit on each game, for example, then you would see more games developed, higher budgets on games, and RISKIER games developed. You know all that whining about repetition and lack of originality in games? Sequelitis? That's driven largely by the kind of industry we have. If there was a bit more assured profit, there would be a bit more risk-taking. Not a LOT more, but probably enough for some interesting games here and there. You could also save a few studios who were on the border between successful and failure.
"There is zero proof that Gamestop harms the industry, and taking a single look at their anual revenue report proves how much money they contribute directly to the gaming industry at large, as well as consumers. There are better choices, for sure, but your assessment that Gamestop is harming the industry is flat out wrong."
Again, what exactly is your argument? Used games are blatantly harmful for the industry.
Anyone who buys used is a potential new game customer. Used games are far closer to "lost sales" than pirated games because you have clear evidence of intent to purchase.
The only argument that really stands about used games is that they somehow finance new game purchases. I highly question the impact of this, but, even if it is true, the world would be better off without used games. Why? Because, if used games really have that impact, it should lead to less new game sales. The result of this would be quicker drops in prices and (potentially, in the long-run) lower new prices to begin with.
Why is that strictly better? Again, because ANY DOLLAR THAT GOES TO GAMESTOP IS A DOLLAR THAT DOESN'T GO INTO GAME DEVELOPMENT!
I also love the figures you toss out nonchalantly. From what I gather, the U.S. console market is around 8-10 billion dollars a year. GameStop's used game revenue, however, floats around 1-2 billion dollars a year.
Yeah.
I can't believe a company would offer incentive to purchase something from them in a capacity that makes them money. The world is falling apart now that companies need profit. This aggression will not stand.
"I know you think you are making a point, but what you are suggesting goes against basic economic principle. You have nothing but anecdotes, none of which have any real basis in fact whatsoever, while the numbers speak for themselves."
What the hell are these "basic economic principle" you mention?
Here's a basic economic principle: one dollar cannot be in two places at one time.
Any dollar in Gamestop's hand is a dollar not in the hands of game developers.
Listen, I've repeatedly made a long argument for why used games are bad. If you want the full economic model, please check my C-Blog on the topic.
I have YET to see a GOD DAMN ARGUMENT from used game people other than blanket assertions that used games don't hurt the industry.
Many of these same people are anti-pirating crusaders, which is HILARIOUS! If anything, used games better fit the bill of "lost sales" than pirated games. Why? Because used game purchasers have undoubtedly demonstrated intent to purchase and are simply not going to repurchase it new. Pirates of games never demonstrated intent to purchase and, often, are still willing to actually buy the game in the future.
By that metric, used games are worse than piracy. But, of course, there is this nebulous counter-argument based on.. economic principles? Perhaps you can convince me by showing me these principles?
What the hell are these "basic economic principle" you mention?
Here's a basic economic principle: one dollar cannot be in two places at one time.
Any dollar in Gamestop's hand is a dollar not in the hands of game developers.
Listen, I've repeatedly made a long argument for why used games are bad. If you want the full economic model, please check my C-Blog on the topic.
I have YET to see a GOD DAMN ARGUMENT from used game people other than blanket assertions that used games don't hurt the industry.
Many of these same people are anti-pirating crusaders, which is HILARIOUS! If anything, used games better fit the bill of "lost sales" than pirated games. Why? Because used game purchasers have undoubtedly demonstrated intent to purchase and are simply not going to repurchase it new. Pirates of games never demonstrated intent to purchase and, often, are still willing to actually buy the game in the future.
By that metric, used games are worse than piracy. But, of course, there is this nebulous counter-argument based on.. economic principles? Perhaps you can convince me by showing me these principles?
"I can't believe a company would offer incentive to purchase something from them in a capacity that makes them money. The world is falling apart now that companies need profit. This aggression will not stand."
ROFL
ROFL
@killias: And how do used games hurt? And how are video games different than books, movies, ANYTHING that also sells used merchandise.
The problem with you're "developers are going out of business" statements is that you took a fact and disputed it..with I'm not even sure. The problem with the video game industry right now is that the Devs don't get enough of the money, while EA, Activision, etc eat it all up. Then close their studios.
And also technically, if you buy NEW at gamestop, all that $60 goes to them. They bought the game for like $50 and they keep the $10 profit. When they run out/low, then they'll buy more copies from the publisher, but it's still their money to spend. That's true for every retailer.
and honestly, I'd rather spend $50 on a used copy of a game I can return from a store than $30 I can't from some guy online. I usually buy my games new, but I'll go used if it's a title I'm unsure about.
The problem with you're "developers are going out of business" statements is that you took a fact and disputed it..with I'm not even sure. The problem with the video game industry right now is that the Devs don't get enough of the money, while EA, Activision, etc eat it all up. Then close their studios.
And also technically, if you buy NEW at gamestop, all that $60 goes to them. They bought the game for like $50 and they keep the $10 profit. When they run out/low, then they'll buy more copies from the publisher, but it's still their money to spend. That's true for every retailer.
and honestly, I'd rather spend $50 on a used copy of a game I can return from a store than $30 I can't from some guy online. I usually buy my games new, but I'll go used if it's a title I'm unsure about.
Jim, from a technical PoV he's right about the two accounts thing. A server can't tell when a copy's been traded to another user, and another user entry is created on the server when the copy is used by another.
The server can't just wipe out inactive accounts, since that will piss off those who just stop playing for quite some time.
But last I checked, profile data is minuscule and the GB/dollar ratio is very small. The storage space used by the profile is most certainly NOT worth $10, and if it is, they need to fire their programmers.
The server can't just wipe out inactive accounts, since that will piss off those who just stop playing for quite some time.
But last I checked, profile data is minuscule and the GB/dollar ratio is very small. The storage space used by the profile is most certainly NOT worth $10, and if it is, they need to fire their programmers.
False argument? Figuring on the average attention span, when you effectively double that time frame sure it costs more. It's as solid as your argument that people do all this used game stuff in the pursuit of buying new. That would be tantamount to a mether switching to heroin just because. Why pay more when I can get just as high for a fraction of the cost?
RE: used copies not being duplicate...
Perhaps you should consider that the alternative is often a new copy that no longer gets put in the tray. When a game is sold back and bought used it keeps it in active circulation longer which means more server load over the lifetime of the disk. You fucking dolt.
Perhaps you should consider that the alternative is often a new copy that no longer gets put in the tray. When a game is sold back and bought used it keeps it in active circulation longer which means more server load over the lifetime of the disk. You fucking dolt.
Also, everyone knows by now publishers charge $10/$15 for an online pass for used copies because that's basically their profit from each new retail copy, right? They make more money for the same copy as if it was new.
@killias
You make zero sense in your arguments, but I'll humor you in the possibly vain hope you learn something
Your assessment that the industry would make more money without used games is conjecture at best. Again, there is no proof that used games hurt the industry, and there is plenty of anecdotal proof that they help. If you want the numbers, I'll provide them for you.
"Used games are blatantly harmful for the industry". Again, if you want numbers, I would be more than happy to provide them. It is not like it is hard to find Gamestop's annual revenue reports.
"The only argument that really stands about used games is that they somehow finance new game purchases. I highly question the impact of this, but, even if it is true, the world would be better off without used games. Why? Because, if used games really have that impact, it should lead to less new game sales." -- This goes against how a used market actually works, and I'll give you an example in a second. As far as your doubt as to whether or not this has an impact.... you guessed it! I'll provide actual numbers if you want them.
As for that example. In the last few years, the new car market tanked. When the new market became unhealthy, the price of a used car skyrocketed to the point where used vehicles became nearly as expensive as new ones as demand started outpacing supply. As a result, the used market tanked. Now that the new market is rebounding, the used market is becoming healthy again. The point is that you cannot have a strong used market without a strong new market, the used market lives and dies by the health of the new market.
"I also love the figures you toss out nonchalantly. From what I gather, the U.S. console market is around 8-10 billion dollars a year. GameStop's used game revenue, however, floats around 1-2 billion dollars a year." -- Again, if you want the numbers, I will pull them up. They are not at all hard to find.
You make zero sense in your arguments, but I'll humor you in the possibly vain hope you learn something
Your assessment that the industry would make more money without used games is conjecture at best. Again, there is no proof that used games hurt the industry, and there is plenty of anecdotal proof that they help. If you want the numbers, I'll provide them for you.
"Used games are blatantly harmful for the industry". Again, if you want numbers, I would be more than happy to provide them. It is not like it is hard to find Gamestop's annual revenue reports.
"The only argument that really stands about used games is that they somehow finance new game purchases. I highly question the impact of this, but, even if it is true, the world would be better off without used games. Why? Because, if used games really have that impact, it should lead to less new game sales." -- This goes against how a used market actually works, and I'll give you an example in a second. As far as your doubt as to whether or not this has an impact.... you guessed it! I'll provide actual numbers if you want them.
As for that example. In the last few years, the new car market tanked. When the new market became unhealthy, the price of a used car skyrocketed to the point where used vehicles became nearly as expensive as new ones as demand started outpacing supply. As a result, the used market tanked. Now that the new market is rebounding, the used market is becoming healthy again. The point is that you cannot have a strong used market without a strong new market, the used market lives and dies by the health of the new market.
"I also love the figures you toss out nonchalantly. From what I gather, the U.S. console market is around 8-10 billion dollars a year. GameStop's used game revenue, however, floats around 1-2 billion dollars a year." -- Again, if you want the numbers, I will pull them up. They are not at all hard to find.
@used gamers: That's what REALLY irks me about the online pass (at least with EA)...If you buy NCAA football (A yearly tradition among friends), the servers are fucking garbage for the first month. Are they waiting for the $10 from used to upgrade them?
why is this news? BC2 had an online pass, it just wasn't called an online pass. it was a VIP pass. without it, you could still play online, you just wouldn't level up past level 5. also, with the VIP pass, you get free map packs and whatnot. I think DICE's online passes are worth it. just sayin.
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