games  anime  |  toys
Destructoid is gaming news, community, videos, and sometimes love. Take the tour or jump in with Facebook:

 


My friends, we are now in the bright age of the

[Editor's Note: We're not just a (rad) news site -- we also publish opinions/editorials from our community & employees like this one, though be aware it may not jive with the opinions of Destructoid as a whole, or how our moms raised us. Want to post your own article in response? Publish it now on our community blogs.

I have a confession to make: I personally do not like Super Mario 64 and all of the subsequent 3D Mario games. For whatever reason, my brain simply cannot wrap itself around the concept of controlling Mario in three-dimensional space and it frustrates me beyond belief that I went from feeling like I had complete control of 2D Mario's every motion to, even after years of trying, struggling to even perform the simple action of jumping up to hit a power-up block.

I suppose what devastated me the most about my disappointment with Super Mario 64 was that this game was supposed to represent the future. I had seen and experienced the evolution of Mario first hand over the years and the move to 3D was the next logical step, or so I was told by friends, Nintendo Power magazine, and the various other sources of videogame information available to a high school student in the last four years of the 1990s. I think that today, with the passage of time, we recognize that 3D games are not the evolutionary next step of 2D games: they are completely different genres in the same way that we recognize photography and painting as two equally valid art forms even though photography was initially heralded as the evolutionary next step and replacement for painting.

It is possible to say that this was the period of time in which I became a "retro-gamer." I know that many of you may have also found your calling as a "retro-gamer" at this same point in time for similar reasons. That being said, I do not like the terms "retro-gaming," "retro-games," or "retro-gamer" even though, for the sake of simplicity (and also because I do not have the creativity to come up with a better term), I still use these terms. This is because in my mind, the appeal of these "retro-games" is in the gameplay, ideas, and mechanics that were given up and abandoned in the rush towards 3D and not because they are "retro" or "old" in the chronological sense. I suppose that many of you would agree with me that it's not about the age of the game and perhaps feel that I am just being nitpicky over words. However, when I look at the state of "retro-gaming" and the attitude of "retro-gamers" at this point in time, I am simply not happy and I cannot help but feel that much of it comes from the fact that people are failing to make the distinction I made just now and act on it.

My younger high school self, disenfranchised by the march of 3D gaming, would probably be delighted to know that now, in 2009, it seems that we have finally reached the age of the "retro-revival." We not only have genuine "retro-games" appearing on Virtual Console, DS, and other platforms but we also have new "retro-games" such as Mega Man 9 and Contra Rebirth. Yet, although I am finally in the promised land, I am not happy because when I finally get over the sheer glee of being here, I quickly realize that something stinks.



My problem with the current state of "retro-games" is that I feel that the majority of "retro-gamers" have become complacent in their expectations of "retro-games." We are so desperate to see another game that utilizes these classic mechanics that we lose or choose to ignore our objectivity and lower our standards when these games do come out. I feel that the consequence of this is that we as a group are now seen by developers as "easy money," an easy market to capitalize on with only a minimal amount of effort needed. Konami is never going to give us a 2D Castlevania game that will surpass Castlevania: Symphony of the Night because they know that they can throw out an unambitious 2D variant on Castlevania: Symphony of the Night or release another remake or port of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and we will eat it up like starving dogs.

The fact is, a good sequel MUST move forward in some way shape or form. It is the same with books, movies, games, and any other respectable art form in the human experience. I already have a great film about family and what that means (Francis Ford Coppola's film The Godfather); if you are going to continue the story, the sequel ought not only to further the story but give me some new things to think about and reflect on. If the sequel does not do this, why should I spend my time on it when I could just re-watch the original work again? The same is true of games. Why should I play a new Mario game if it does not offer me anything new that I could not have gotten out of the previous game? In the beginning of this C Blog entry, I claimed that I personally did not like the 3D Mario games. Nevertheless, I have to admit that I respect them for bringing in new things and new ideas into the Mario series. Lucky and blessed are those who have brains that are capable of enjoying these 3D Mario games and the new experiences that Shigeru Miyamoto brings to life.



"Retro-gamers" heralded the release of Mega Man 9 as the beginning of a new era of "retro-gaming." It is no secret that I am probably the only person on Dtoid that not only did not like Mega Man 9, but hated it with a passion. I must also admit that I am thus far generally unimpressed with the "fruits" of this new era of "retro-gaming."

I do not like Mega Man 9 for one simple reason: the game was made to target "stereotypical retro-gamers" and the vast majority of players have been blinded by nostalgia and unable to realize that if you eliminate the element of nostalgia and move past the admittedly clever marketing campaign with the homage to the ugly American box art, the resulting game is simply not very good and, to be honest, is pretty insulting to "retro-gamers."

I hate to pick on RetroforceGO! because I greatly respect the cast and I do feel that they have done more for the "retro-game" community than possibly any other podcast or fan entity out there but listening to the Mega Man 9 episode of the show (episode 62) made me sigh because it showed me exactly how extremely intelligent and insightful individuals can be collectively blinded by the power of nostalgia.

The resounding message I got from that RetroforceGO! episode was that Mega Man worked best as an NES game, either Mega Man 2 or Mega Man 3 depending on who you ask, and that taking it out of that ruins it. To be fair, this opinion seems to be the norm now for most Mega Man fans and "retro-gamers." That being said, forgive me, but I think that this view is absolute bullshit. Mario changed and evolved. Zelda changed and evolved. Punch-Out changed and evolved. Final Fantasy changed and evolved. Dragon Quest changed and evolved. Not only have these franchises and more changed and evolved, many of them have done it again and again. If all of these franchises can successfully negotiate its growing pains, I find it not only ridiculous to claim that Mega Man cannot do so, but flat out insulting to the franchise.

The thing that bothers me most about the view that Mega Man needs to stay 8-bit was the fact that I was alive and playing videogames throughout Mega Man's lifespan and I know as a fact that this is not true. If anything, Mega Man was a series that was hounded and arguably met its downfall because it refused to embrace change. Yet, it seems to me that Mega Man history has in recent years been completely rewritten by nostalgia-loving "retro-gamers." When developers were blowing away gamers by invigorating 8-bit franchises on 16-bit consoles, Capcom was still making 8-bit Mega Man games that just about everyone at the time was tired of. Mega Man 7 on the SNES didn't suck because it was 16-bit: it sucked because it came near the end of the SNES life cycle and looked and played like a fairly ordinary and unambitious game. To be fair, Mega Man 7 is actually one of my favorite Mega Man games but I also do confess that it simply did not have the WOW HOLY SHIT factor that many SNES games like Super Metroid and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past had. Of course, it certainly did not help that Capcom was in fact doing a lot of interesting and exciting things in the Mega Man X series and in fact, Mega Man X2, one of the best Mega Man games period, had come out right before Mega Man 7. Similarly, the problem with Mega Man 8 was not the fact that it was 32-bit: it was the fact that the game felt unambitious and tired, there were tons of frustrating moments in the game, and the English voice dubbing was so horrible that the English dubbing for the original Speed Racer anime sounded like voice-acting gold.



Mega Man 9 bothers me because it shows me that in the nearly 10 years since Mega Man 8, Capcom has not learned a single thing about what they did wrong with Mega Man back in the day. It bothers me to think that after all these years of reflection time, Capcom's brilliant solution for the Mega Man franchise is to backpedal the series to Mega Man 2. As someone who replays the entire Mega Man series (yes, even the hated latter installments) at least twice a year, I did not see anything new and compelling that the game brought in nor did I feel that the game did anything that actually warranted going to an 8-bit style. What really killed the game for me is that Capcom also fell into the "retro-gamer stereotype" trap of thinking that "retro-games" ought to be difficult and forgetting the distinction between challenging, cheap, and broken. I'll credit Capcom for making a game that is not "broken" although I would attribute that more to the fact that Mega Man 2 is not broken rather than any current work or action on Capcom's part. However, Mega Man 9 was killed for me because it is ridiculously difficult in incredibly cheap ways. Please forgive my rudeness, but I think that anyone who thinks that the difficulty of Mega Man 9 makes the game more like the classic Mega Man from the past that you love is absolutely wrong and full of shit. The vast majority of the difficult parts of Mega Man games can be trivialized by special weapons or abilities. For me, the most challenging Mega Man moment (the Yellow Devil in Dr. Wily stage 1 of Mega Man) and the most cheap Mega Man moment (the second "jump jump slide slide" section in Dr. Wily stage 1 of Mega Man 8) is nothing compared to the often-cheap challenges that populates the entire game Mega Man 9.

I asked a user question on that same episode of RetroforceGO! which suggested that the approach taken by Capcom with Mega Man 9 was lazy, especially compared to what Capcom did with the remake of Bionic Commando. Chad read my comment and then disagreed with my accusation that the approach of the game was "lazy," especially given that Capcom has said on record many times that it took them time and effort to relearn how to make a game in that older 8-bit style. To be fair, I think it's safe to say that neither Chad nor I are capable of saying whether or not the approach was "lazy" or not from an effort or financial point-of-view. However, I think it is fair for me to say that although I have not created a diorama in nearly 20 years, I am fairly certain that I can right now relearn how to make a diorama and make a diorama that at the least equals what I could have done as a kid for a fraction of the effort that I would have needed back then. I think that it is also safe for me to say that I could make a diorama that far surpasses anything I could have done as a kid for the fraction of the effort that it would take me to create a business or scientific presentation for work or a conference, which from a certain point of view, is pretty much the adult equivalent of a diorama.

I know that many players have been burned by sequels gone wrong and from a certain point of view, I can understand why they are willing to accept the stagnation or regression of a series. However, I just cannot bring myself to settle for that, not only because other franchises (many of whom started out as far worse games than Mega Man) have managed to move forward, but because I have too much respect for Mega Man as a series and Capcom as a developer.

Before the RetroforceGO! conversation left my user question, it was expressed in some way, shape, or form (I would check for the exact wording but my firewall at work prevents me from downloading that episode or accessing the RSS feed) that I was wrong in wanting Mega Man to move forward because Capcom had in fact gone forward with the latter installments of the game and failed. I have already addressed earlier why I feel that these failures have nothing to do with Capcom moving forward but rather the fact that they either didn't move forward enough or went in the wrong direction.



For many players, Zelda II: The Adventure of Link was a misstep. Considering that no Zelda game since that game has continued with the style of Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, I think it is safe to assume that Miyamoto probably realized that it was the wrong direction for the game. However, Miyamoto did not simply go right back to the first Zelda game and craft a sequel out of that. He went back to the original game, looked at what it did right and wrong, looked at what the second game did right and wrong, and then went forward in a different direction, giving us The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. If you make a mistake, you learn from it, and make the right decision next time. The same is true of game design. I think it is safe to say that all of the best video games in history arise as a result of developers that are continuously trying to improve their craft, try new things, and learn from their mistakes. Mega Man 9 simply does not do any of that. Mega Man 9 embraces the "retro-gamer stereotype" that games were better in the past and made a crap load of money not only because the price was right, but also because "retro-gamers" and Mega Man fans have been so starved that we don't really bother to notice or care.

The final thing that really confused me about that episode of RetroforceGO! was that a few minutes later, once the cast had finished eviscerating my question, Topher expressed that he wanted Capcom to try something new with Mega Man 10 and said something to the likes of saying that if Capcom took the same approach with Mega Man 10, he would be reluctant to pay "full retail price" for a game due to the sheer amount of "recycled" elements (granted, it seemed that everyone on the show was somewhat reluctant to say that they would pay "full retail price" for Mega Man 9), statements that everyone on the cast agreed with. Umm, isn't that exactly what I was complaining about and what everyone disagreed with? I've played all the Mega Man games every year for years now and I don't understand why players needed ANOTHER 8-bit Mega Man game to convince them of something that they should have known years ago and probably did know back then. I don't need to make yet another diorama to come to the conclusion that I could probably work on advancing my presentation tools and skills. Consider for a moment that Mega Man was once considered one of the greatest video game series and that people were rushing out to stores to buy these games at full retail price and now some of Mega Man's greatest fans are reluctant to pay full retail price for the latest installment of the series and I think it becomes obvious why Mega Man 9, once the nostalgia has been stripped away, is very obviously not the right direction for the series.



A related news item that caused "retro-gamers" to cheer in triumph was a quote from Castlevania creator Koji Igarashi in an interview with Wired.com about Mega Man 9 in which he said that: "I’m watching that very closely to see how it does. Myself, I’m a big retro gaming fan, so if it is successful that definitely opens up doors for what I can do." If you read the entirety of the interview, you get the distinct impression that cost is heavily on Igarashi's mind. With regards to a traditional Castlevania game, Igarashi says that his mantra would be to "create a game for the core fans with as low a development cost as possible." In the same interview, 1UP's Jeremy Parish speculates that Konami is not supporting Igarashi with the financial resources that he wants to do what he wants. It is not hard to read between the lines and see that Igarashi's interest in Mega Man 9 is not only as that of a "retro-gamer" but as a developer that sees this game as a way of doing the games he wants to do at extremely low costs.

From what we have seen in the recent months with Gradius Rebirth, Contra Rebirth, and now The Castlevania Adventure Rebirth, I think it is safe to assume that Igarashi and Konami was they were happy with what they saw with Mega Man 9. As such, I suppose that Mega Man 9 did bring about the "retro revival" that "retro-gamers" had hoped for. That being said, I am not very satisfied with the end result because from what I see, developers are only paying lip-service to "retro-gamers." Like Mega Man 9, Gradius Rebirth does very little that actually brings the series forward. Contra Rebirth however, not only does not bring the series forward, it actually regresses the series. At least with Mega Man 9, the "progression" of the series has been generally met with apathy. In contrast, in the case of Contra, I think that it is safe to say that between Contra: Shattered Soldier and Contra 4, "retro-gamers" and Contra fans generally like the progression of the Contra franchise. As such, it is strikes me as lazy and insulting that Contra Rebirth cannot even match the quality of Contra III: The Alien Wars, is extremely short, and lacks polish. Of course Konami is not the only offender here. Square Enix's Final Fantasy IV: The After Years, once you get past the nostalgic factor, is mediocre, sloppy, and lacks polish.

It is true that we are in the age of the "retro-revival." However, when the vast majority of developers think "retro," what they are really thinking of is "old" and worst of all "cheap." As a huge fan of Mega Man that spent his entire 4th grade drawing Mega Man levels in his notebook, I desperately want to see a Mega Man sequel that does for the 8-bit Mega Man games what Super Metroid and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past did for 8-bit Metroid and 8-bit Zelda. I believe that anyone who calls themselves a "retro-gamer" wants to see this game made and put in our hands. The problem is that we are not getting that game right now and I feel that we will never be getting that game because our existing expenditures of money has proven to developers that when it comes to the quality of "retro-games," we are not a discriminating group and we are willing to settle as long as our nostalgia bone is titillated. We are now in a situation where "retro-games" are seemingly made on the philosophy of doing the bare minimum necessary at the lowest cost in order to grab as much money from "retro-gamers." Compare that approach to what companies like Valve and Bungie do in which they are pouring in whatever necessary resources are needed into making the best game they can. Valve and Bungie feel pressured to make the best game they can because if Left 4 Dead 2 and Halo 3: ODST aren't as good as their predecessors, their audience will complain. In the "retro-scene," we don't complain about mediocre "retro-sequels" because we are happy enough that we are even getting the game. And so the cycle continues.



For what it's worth, there have been exceptions to the rule. The Behemoth's Castle Crashers may have single-handedly made the side-scrolling beat-um-up genre it's bitch. Nintendo seems to have wizened up after the average "retro-revival" New Super Mario Bros. DS game and prepared a sequel for the Wii that actually takes 2D Mario forward as opposed to sideways. Controversy-aside, Shadow Complex seems to bring back the Metroidvania style that Nintendo and Konami are unwilling to continue. As hard as it seems that I came down on RetroforceGO!, I applaud the staff for not succumbing to "retro-game" hype with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time Re-shelled. As always, I have great respect for the RetroforceGO! cast for bringing attention to and pioneering the cause of "retro-gaming."

Ultimately, we as "retro-gamers" need to work harder together and on an individual level to let developers know that we are not willing to spend another cent on mediocrity and that we want a new "retro-game" to be treated with the same attention and standard of quality that a BioShock, The Beatles: Rock Band, or Left 4 Dead would receive. My friends, we are now truly in the bright new age of the "retro-revival" but we have a long way to go before we are out of the valley of the shadow of death...I mean mediocrity.

P.S. I am not at all religious and in fact I believe that I have may have only been in a church less than a handful of times. However, the religious imagery just sounded kind of cool to use and so I went with it.

Continue: More Rant stories





prev
next 50 comments

113 comments | showing # 1 to 50

Bulkmailer's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 15:19
Bulkmailer
It's almost like Mega Man 9 murdered your family. Have you tried Retro Game Challenge?
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 15:47
Magnalon
"I do not like Mega Man 9 for one simple reason: the game was made to target "stereotypical retro-gamers" and the vast majority of players have been blinded by nostalgia and unable to realize that if you eliminate the element of nostalgia and move past the admittedly clever marketing campaign with the homage to the ugly American box art, the resulting game is simply not very good and, to be honest, is pretty insulting to "retro-gamers."

This is PROBABLY the most misinformed statement I've heard all year.

Did you even play Mega Man 9? I can tell you, as someone who's played just about every platformer known to man, that Mega Man 9 was one of the most well thought out, and developed games of all time. All of the jumps, enemies, and the timing for everything was all meticulously planned to the point that the developers had a "perfect" speed run secretly built into each level.

Seriously, I'd be hard pressed to find any game, of any time period, with better level designs than Mega Man 9. "It was too hard" is a really lame excuse.

"The Yellow Devil in Dr. Wily stage 1 of Mega Man"
Simply use Elec Man's weapon, and press start over and over

"The second "jump jump slide slide" section in Dr. Wily stage 1 of Mega Man 8"
Are you serious? The fact that they tell you to "jump" or "slide" is better than a ton of other platform games, which simply make you learn it by trial and error.

I think your hatred for Mega Man stems from the fact that you were never really good at platformers. Practice up with Mega Man 2, watch some Mega Man 9 speedruns, and sit and look at how carefully the levels were crafted.

Also, Mega Man 9 was $10, which was a complete and utter steal, and was ported to every major gaming console: it probably took more effort, time, and money to develop than some DS games, so I have no idea where you're going with this.
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 15:50
Magnalon
Sorry if I got worked up: you usually write such amazing blogs, I don't really know where this one came from.
Char Aznable's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 15:55
Char Aznable
Mega Man 9 was one of my favorite games of last year. I'm not blinded by anything; I like Mega Man games, and this one absolutely delivered. There are few things that I want more than a direct sequel to MM9 done in the same style.

What did you find so "cheap" about the game and its difficulty? I admittedly put the game down out of frustration for over four months before I even beat it. After playing it a lot and working on strategies, now I can whip through the whole thing in like 20 minutes without dying and have every achievement.

Also, did you try endless attack mode? I've gotten an incredible amount of replay value from that mode alone.
Nic128's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 15:59
Nic128
A brain that can't process the 3D evolution of classic games? I feel bad for you.
Gen Eric Gui's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:21
Gen Eric Gui
Char and Magnalon already covered this, but I'll say it again for emphasis. Megaman 9 was one of the most meticulously balanced games I've played in my entire life. There was absolutely nothing cheap or slipshod about it, and claiming that it was anything less then an amazing effort on the part of Capcom really just shows how little you understand about how game balance works.

I'll also say that I personally feel that Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow, and Portrait of Ruin(ESPECIALLY PoR) have sufficiently surpassed Symphony of the Night in quality that we really don't need to rag on them for not pushing the genre forward. I mean, hell, the fact that you applaud Shadow Complex for "pushing the genre forward" while simultaneously claiming that PoR was uninspired and poorly made just screams "I have no idea what I am talking about and am filled with generic rage".
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:24
Tascar
@Magnalon (although Char Aznable, I also sort of address your question here too)

In reading your response, I feel like the reason we are disagreeing is because I am looking at MM9 as it compares to the other MM games that I do consider it to be a part of, even though I have bitched and moaned just now about the game.

You may disagree with my conclusions about MM9 but I do not think that you can deny that MM9 is without a doubt the most difficult of the main 9 MM games and frankly, I don't find that fun, especially when it feels like to me that the difficulty of this game comes not out of anything inherent to the MM series but out of the impression that retro-gamers like things hard.

I do not consider myself the best platformer player, but I do not think that I am nearly as horrible as you put me out to me. Let me put it this way. Once you figure out the basic controls of MM, there is not a single MM game that you can play, either 1 through 8 that you cannot at least in some way shape or form brute-force your way through to at least see the boss. This is simply not true of MM9. It is not enough to understand the gameplay for MM9, you must memorize the stage over and over again and practice endlessly in order to even get to see the boss itself. There are tons of extremely cheap deaths (those little things that drag you to the sides). Hell, there are sections of the game that even play and screw with your familiarity with MM games.

In MM1, you can ignore all of the difficult jumps if you chose to go for the Magnet Beam. In MM2, you can ignore that entire section in Heat Man stage with the disappearing blocks if you go for the Jet. Sure, I've done all of these sections the hard way. But for a newbie, at least there's an easy way around these obstacles. In MM9, nearly every single stage has some element that made me go "wow, are you fucking kidding me" and there is no way to avoid it other than the hard way.

Of course, once you get to the boss, things get even more annoying. MM2, the game that this game claims to follow, rewarded you for discovering which weapon worked for which boss because the use of the right weapon completely trivialized the boss. In MM9, the difference between the right weapon and the Mega Buster is very small, especially in the beginning when you are trying to experiment to figure out the right weapon. Ironically, the first four Dr. Wily stage bosses are complete jokes compared to the 8 robot masters.

I also don't really like the item system in the game. In MM2, the energy tanks were pretty much completely optional. In MM3, the game rewarded you for exploring by giving you energy tanks. In MM9, unless you have been working your ass off studying to play this game, energy tanks and even weapon tanks are pretty much essentially, and frankly, given that this is MM and not WoW, I don't like that functionally, the only easy way to get them is by grinding.

Magnalon, you said that I should go watch some YouTube videos to learn the game. Sorry, but I have never had to resort to Nintendo Power or GameFAQs for a MM game. You also describe MM9 as "one of the most well thought out, and developed games of all time. All of the jumps, enemies, and the timing for everything was all meticulously planned to the point that the developers had a "perfect" speed run secretly built into each level" and "look at how carefully the levels were crafted" Perhaps this is why you enjoyed the game and why I don't. Because what you describe sounds like a game where there are set ways to do things and unless you do them or outsmart the developer, you are completely fucked in the ass whereas in the previous games, especially MM2, there were multiple ways to do things that don't require you to "study" the game.

Again, I am glad that this game matches your expectations and I am glad that its difficulty is what turns you on. However, I am not a fan of overly difficult games. And what is worse, there is no other MM game that comes even close to the difficulty and cheapness of this game. As a MM fan, I don't think it is unreasonable for me to say that the difficulty of the game is overly difficult and unforgiving, especially in comparison to MM2, the game that MM9 is most compared to.

@Nic128, thank you for your pity. If it means anything, I get nauseous when I play games that are in the first person perspective too. You should have seen me throwing up as I forced myself to play "Portal" to see what Rev. Anthony and Aaron Linde were raving about. It was worth it though!
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:29
Tascar
@Gen Eric Gui, my words were "ontroversy-aside, Shadow Complex seems to bring back the Metroidvania style that Nintendo and Konami are unwilling to continue." I have never played Shadow Complex and I thought that my phasing implied that but I agree that I could have been more accurate there.

With respect to the Castlevania games, I don't think I said that the DS games were shit. I called it an uninspired variant of Symphony of the Night and in that regard, I do not think that this is an unfair accusation. Perhaps it is my personal bias, but as I said, I want a sequel to move forward in some way shape or form. I understand that these games are in many ways not supposed to be a sequel and are pseudo side story Castlevania games but I just don't really like that type of half-way there approach.
Gen Eric Gui's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:37
Gen Eric Gui
Uh, MM9 is ludicrously easy compared to the earlier MM games. I should know, I STILL have problems beating MM1 and 2 and even on my initial playthrough of MM9 I only died a handful of times and only ever needed an E-Tank for Wily.

"Of course, once you get to the boss, things get even more annoying. MM2, the game that this game claims to follow, rewarded you for discovering which weapon worked for which boss because the use of the right weapon completely trivialized the boss. In MM9, the difference between the right weapon and the Mega Buster is very small, especially in the beginning when you are trying to experiment to figure out the right weapon."

Using the right weapons in MM9 basically makes the fight win itself. If the weapons you are using aren't doing much more damage than the Megabuster, then you are using the wrong weapons. I mean, Black Hole Gun destroys Jewel Man in -4 hits-, and compeltely disables his weapon at the same time. I think he's the easiest MM boss in history aside from maybe Toad Man.

Also, there is totally a "Magnet Beam/Item 2" auto-win item in MM9, you start with it, it's called the Rush Coil. Srsly, you can use it to skip huge portions of some levels.
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:42
Magnalon
"I don't find that fun"

That's perfectly understandable! That's your opinion, and I respect it! But when it comes to calling the game "cheap, or lazy", where were we digger.

"you must memorize the stage over and over again and practice endlessly in order to even get to see the boss itself."

I don't know what to say to this other than that really wasn't the case for me. I guess I could run down some of the bosses.

Concrete Man: pretty standard MM level, but fine tuned.

Galaxy Man: The things that push you into the spikes are very easy to beat: use the crystal shield, or simply run to where they'd drop down, and skirt left (I figured this out the second time I found one).

Jewel Man: Same thing here: pretty standard, but MUCH easier than Skull Man's stage in a previous Mega Man.

Plug Man: MUCH easier than Heat Man in MM2, and you can STILL use Rush Jet to get past the last, and only hard part.

Tornado Man: I'll give you this one somewhat, as part of his level is hard: although, it does contain elements of Snake Man, Air man, and every other "push rain" level found in every Mega Man ever, including Wire Sponge, Toad Man, Cloud Man, and many others. So overall, it's really just a synergistic Mega Man weather experience.

Magma Man: Very much like Flame Man's stage, but even easier, because you can use concrete to quell the flames.

Hornet Man: I'll give you that the little "push platforms" are hard to figure out, but again, you can use Rush Jet on them. Also, the push platforms are very reminiscent of a few claustrophobic areas in Mega Man games, and Capcom's Chip N' Dale games.

Splash Woman: On the only hard part of the level (the blocks), you can use Rush Coil, and Rush Jet: the bubbles were found in Burst Man (MM7), and are even easier than that stage.

Wily Stages: These are just masterpieces. Wily 2? Amazing.

"But for a newbie, at least there's an easy way around these obstacles. In MM9, nearly every single stage has some element that made me go "wow, are you fucking kidding me" and there is no way to avoid it other than the hard way. "

For a few parts, I used the Rush Jet/Rush Coil: the exact same way I did in Mega Man 2/3. Nearly every really hard part can be cheated in the exact same way as 2/3, albeit it takes a bit more thinking.

I think were you and I differ is this: I think that Mega Man 2 and 3 were overly simplistic in some parts, and those were the lazy ones, not 9.


"MM2, the game that this game claims to follow, rewarded you for discovering which weapon worked for which boss because the use of the right weapon completely trivialized the boss. In MM9, the difference between the right weapon and the Mega Buster is very small,"

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! THIS is your problem! You are talking about Mega Man 2 on America's easy mode, aka "normal! The correct mode is "hard", which has a megabuster/weapon ratio that's MUCH closer to MM9s. Try going back and playing MM2 again, as easy mode is very disproportionate to say, Mega Man 3 or 4's difficulty.

"Magnalon, you said that I should go watch some YouTube videos to learn the game. Sorry, but I have never had to resort to Nintendo Power or GameFAQs for a MM game."
That's not what I meant. I never needed to ever consult an FAQ to beat Mega Man 9, but I'm saying if you are oblivious to the insane amount of care put into the game (as also said by Gen Eric), you should watch some videos.

Overall, I'm very confused as to why you're comparing this game so much to MM2, especially if you're referring to easy mode. Even if the developers hyped up 9 and said it was based on 2, it really wasn't at all. In fact, I'd consider the level designs more close to 4, along with the difficulty (4 was one of the hardest games, if not the hardest in the 1-9 series).
Elsa's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 16:43
Elsa
Personally I avoid "retro-games"... can't stand them. I played those games when they were new and have no desire to revisit the past when I can be experiencing the joys of new ideas, new controls, new IP's, new graphics.

I recently dug out my old Dreamcast and revisited some of those old games... and the load times, controls, graphics... OMG, it gave me a new appreciation for how far gaming has come and how far it can go in the future.

I have no problem with people who do love retro gaming... but I personally fail to see the attraction.

As you sort of alluded to... I don't mind older games given an entirely new treatment - but there's no pleasing everyone and unfortunately many would say that the game then loses it's "retro appeal". However, as you also noted, many games do move with the times and seem successful because of that. Would I rather play my Dreamcast version of GTA with the top down view or the current version with a full spectacularly realistic world to explore in detail?... I'll take the current version.

That being said, a good game is a good game - old or new.
BulletMagnet's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 17:15
BulletMagnet
I don't play much Mega Man so I can't join that fray, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with a pretty good deal of your overall gist, especially your impression that a lot of "retro" titles today are primed to succeed not on their own merits but due to the rose-colored glasses of their intended audience (I made similar arguments in this article, and to a lesser extent this one. Consider this article Fapped.
A New Challenger's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 17:21
A New Challenger
I think you hit on some very important points here, although you are clearly Hitler for disliking Mega Man 9.

(Kidding! Kidding! I liked Mega Man 9 a lot, but I can clearly see why someone else wouldn't, and it has nothing to do with them being a douchebag.)

Of the things I disagree with, the greatest would probably be that Mega Man 9 didn't really bring anything new to the table. Fundamentally, perhaps it didn't, but there were new gimmicks and enemies and amazing moments that had not been in any of the previous games. For me and many others, that was enough.

However, your larger concerns and points are something I can't disagree with. Contra ReBirth on its own is an alright game, but does reek a bit of "easy money" (mostly because of those backgrounds, or what passes for backgrounds.) These throwbacks are fun, but there is a point where enough is enough and one would really like to see something NEW new with the old-school sensibilities. You brought up Castle Crashers as an example, and as a corollary I might argue that we will be seeing PLENTY of games that take their cues from the 2D generations, but more often than not they are coming not from the development houses responsible for those old classics but new developers who were weaned on those games and now have the means to develop and distribute games of their own.

Out of curiosity, have you played Muramasa yet?
Deathofthedead's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 17:31
Deathofthedead
I find myself torn. I agree with some of your points, very much so, and think that designing things to be retro for retro's sake is a fairly cheap way to try to cash in on the nostalgia market.

That said, I disagree with some other things you went into, especially this section:

"...if you are going to continue the story, the sequel ought not only to further the story but give me some new things to think about and reflect on. If the sequel does not do this, why should I spend my time on it when I could just re-watch the original work again? The same is true of games. Why should I play a new Mario game if it does not offer me anything new that I could not have gotten out of the previous game?" (Bolding mine, of course)

Games are different in this regard in that, to a certain extent, their value lies in their content being discovered. The challenge, and therefore fun in many cases, depends on you not knowing what's coming up next, and having to react and adapt to new challenges and situations as they come at you. While you can (and I do) play games over and over even after you've committed every stage and enemy to memory, new content is required to retain any difficulty.

Which brings me to Castlevania. I love Castlevania, and SotN is one of my favorite games of all time. That said, I memorized the castle in 1997, so playing the game today isn't quite the exploratory challenge it was then. And while I don't think they've yet surpassed (or even matched) SotN in terms of quality with any of the DS/GBA installments, I do think they're very close, and most important they're new. I've played and loved every one because it's the same basic gameplay structure that I know and love, but fresh enough to give me the thrill of discovery again.

Very good article. Any article that gets me to think about my opinions this much deserves a thumbs-up, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with it. Well done!
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 17:32
Tascar
Magnalon,

In reading your interesting response, I find it interesting how different the two of us play MM games. For me, I like to play through the stages with the Mega Buster only, especially in my first few playthroughs of the game since I want to save them for the boss whereas it seems that you experiment more frequently with different items and weapons.

I am also reading your descriptions of the stages and I think that for me, it's not the entire stage but certain WTF moments that trip me up over and over again. For example, I really don't like the flower miniboss. Unless you blow the Hornet weapon on that miniboss, there no easy way to do it: it's a ridiculously slow and annoying grind. I am also thinking about that one particular jump in (Jewel Man maybe?) near the end with the spikes blocking most of the path forward. There is also that really annoying last two jumps you have to make in the water section of Dr. Wily stage 2 that sometimes I get perfect and sometimes I am just out of the zone and fail over and over and over again. The second floating section in Dr. Wily stage 3, particularly the last part of it, also kind of annoyed me, especially since the first time I successed to navigate the spikes, I immediately found myself dead when I went a little bit too much to the left and got dragged out by that flying robot.

I do know of the sections that you mentioned that can be skipped or trivialized by the items. But I feel that there are more areas in MM9 that you simply can't do that in, such as some of the sections I just listed. As for the MM2, I do recognize your point about normal and difficult mode. That being said, I appreciated that the game provided me with an option to go to something easier to start out with before I moved onto hard mode.

I actually agree with you in that MM2 and MM3 might arguably be a bit too easy. However, I think that the difficulty of MM9 is a bit too hard and unforgiving and this is coming from someone who did beat MM1-MM8 and found them easy to occasionally challenging.

Ok, in reading and processing your comments as well as the others that liked MM9, I suppose that I can concede that perhaps I was harsh. Let me briefly explain why, from my point of view, I used those words.

What you guys described and liked about MM9 are stage-design and balance-related decisions and have nothing to do with the graphical style and decision to make the bit feel 8-bit. I am confident that this team would do the same job that you guys describe in a hypothetical MM game with, say, the engine of MM7 or MM8.

If Capcom flat out told me that they were strapped on cash and that the only way they could make a MM9 is by doing it in a more simple 8-bit style, I would shut my mouth. However, Capcom wants us to believe that this game was not made on the cheap and that the 8-bit decision was intentional. If that is the case, then I want to understand why. From what I can see, none of what people like about this game cannot be done in a 16-bit or 32-bit or whatever style of game as long as they put their minds to it.

As I said, as someone who has been with the MM series since the beginning, I know that I wanted MM to move forward as a series. As I said, Mario moved forward, Link did, Metroid did, etc. There is no reason short of not trying that MM couldn't, especially since the team had nearly a decade to think about what went "wrong" with MM7 and MM8. When I say that MM9 strikes me as "lazy," this is what I mean. Back when I was a kid, I wanted MM9 to not only move the series forward graphically, etc, I also wanted it to have good design. MM9, by the standards that you and some others have, has progressed in design but not style and that kind of disappoints me.

But now we go to the difficulty aspect. I simply do not think that a MM game should have been as hard as MM9 turned out to be. Again, I know that you Magnalon believe 4 to be the hardest. I also know that Gen Eric Gui believes 9 to be incredibly easy. I envy you all but that was not my experience with the game. I know that Gen Eric Gui disagrees but I feel that at the very least you Magnalon do see and recognize the areas of frustration that I am describing. As for my comparison to MM2, Capcom has in their PR, etc, constantly talked about how they considered MM2 the best and so they wanted to go back to that. Is it not unfair for me to use that as a base of comparison for difficulty? Even the difficult mode of MM2 is nothing compared to MM9, for me at least.

If I am harsh on MM9, it is because of the combination of the two factors. The game assumes that MM is best in an 8-bit style, which I just don't agree with, and it works very hard to play to the "retro-audience" in its marketing. Finally, because of what I felt was an intense and overly difficult balance, I felt that as a MM fan, I was alienated. The combination of which is that I felt that this game was not designed for MM fans because a game for a MM fan would have been more in line with and follow in the ambitions and promises of MM history. I felt instead that this game was designed for what Capcom felt was a "stereotypical retro-gamer" who likes things to look and sound 8-bit and wants things ridiculously difficult.
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 17:48
Magnalon
"I am also reading your descriptions of the stages and I think that for me, it's not the entire stage but certain WTF moments that trip me up over and over again. For example, I really don't like the flower miniboss. Unless you blow the Hornet weapon on that miniboss, there no easy way to do"

Magma's Weapon 2-hits it: also, stay on the bottom-most platforms and simply wait for the flower to pop up: mash the mega buster button as hard as you can, ring around back, and wait, repeat. You shouldn't get hit.

"That being said, I appreciated that the game provided me with an option to go to something easier to start out with before I moved onto hard mode."

That was more of a fuck up, really, amidst the insanely popular "Americans suck at games craze": in fact, the American edition of "Final Fantasy II (IV)" is easy mode throughout. Capcom to this day hasn't including anything like that in any of their Mega Man games. Like I said earlier, MM3, MM4, and MM5 are all harder than MM9 overall.

"If I am harsh on MM9, it is because of the combination of the two factors. The game assumes that MM is best in an 8-bit style, which I just don't agree with"

At the end of the day, I will agree on that. I think the X games are superior, but my favorite style is Mega Man & Bass'/MM8's cartoony up to date style. You can REALLY tell they put a TON of effort into the character models: just look at any of Mega Man 8's boss character's many different animations, it's incredible!

That said, I don't think MM8 really gets any credit at all just because it happens to be fairly easy. Other than the horrid dub, I'd consider it one of the best Mega Man games of all time.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 18:02
Tascar
@A New Challenger,

I have just made an additional comment on MM9 which I think responds to some of your points. However, I will just simply say that as someone that really really loved MM and had a lot of hope and desire for the follow-up to MM8, MM9 disappointed me. I will concede though, based on everyone's comments, that my expectation and experience of MM was probably very different than those of everyone else. For me, the 16-bit MM game that blew me away was MMX. MMX essentially did to the 8-bit MM games what Super Metroid did to the previous two Metroid games. That being said, Capcom made it obvious that they considered MM different from MMX and so I suppose part of that disappointment was that I kind of felt after awhile that the original MM series never really got that WOW moment that I wanted to see and imagined would someday happen.

I have actually played Muramasa, having gotten a Wii relatively recently. I am enjoying it although I agree with many people on the problems that it has. That being said, what really turns me onto the game is perhaps simply the feel of the game more than anything. On a fundamental level, the game can probably be reduced to things I have played before but as a whole package, it feels different, fresh, and new. It's the combination of the graphics, the sound, the gameplay, the stage design, etc, that for me, envelops me. It's probably an odd comparison, but this game makes me feel like I am in the anime TV series Rurouni Kenshin (not the darker OAVs) or a lighter-hearted Princess Mononoke.

@Deathofthedead,

I actually agree with you on this one. I suppose an easy example for me to point to was the Japanese Super Mario Bros 2, what we call The Lost Levels. Yes, the game essentially plays on the same engine as the original, but it brings alot of new concepts to the game. In fact, once you get past the first level and especially the first world, this game is so different from the original that you almost forget that they are based on the same engine.

Yet, let's not forget that after this game, Miyamoto and his crew (yes, I know that Miyamoto allegedly had less involvement with Japanese Super Mario Bros 2) did advance Mario forward with Super Mario Bros 3 and I don't think that anyone can deny that it was a good decision.

I agree with you that the DS and GBA Castlevania aren't bad. However, for me, it's just a syndrome of too-many-trips-to-the-same-well. Yes, they kind of follow the same formula and they all kind of change things around and do admittedly do new things too. But they have done it for so many years and so many games now. I just feel like after all these years, I would like Castlevania to move on. When Castlevania 3 came out, that replaced Castlevania 2 as the gold standard. The same happened with Super Castlevania 4, Rondo of Blood, and it stopped after Symphony of the Night. After all of these years, I just want to see Castlevania.to move forward and out of the shadow of Symphony of the Night.

@Magnalon,

I kind of just said this to A New Challenger as well, but I think your comment on the underrated aspect of MM8 partly contributes to the massive disappointment I felt with MM9. The dub for MM8 is indeed horrible. MM8 is too easy. MM8 strays dangerously close to the Sonic "too many bullshit friends" category. However, I felt that Capcom had finally found a next-gen base for MM that actually worked that they could really build off of. If Capcom wanted to build off of MM8, I can't even imagine what an awesome game they could have come up with. But they never did and for a while I kind of accepted that perhaps they just didn't have the time or money to do it. I really loved the PSP remake of MMX because it kind of took what was awesome about that game and next-genned the game very successfully. I suppose that given these games, my expectation for MM9 woud turn out to be too much and probably unreasonable.
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 18:10
Magnalon
While we disagree in the sense that MM9 was a disappointment, I'll argue to the death that MM8 was an excellent game. In all honesty, it wasn't that much easier than 2, X, or X2, which are usually lauded as some of the best in the series.

You just can't beat the incredible amount of detail they put into the robot bosses: I think Mega Man 8's fully voiced robot masters are the best cast yet.

DUUUUUUH IM FROST MAN.

Have you tried Mega Man ZX/Advent ZX by the way? They seem like they might whet your appetite, and have come highly recommended by my Mega Man friends. I just ordered them both, so I'll share my opinions on them should you need a suggestion.
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 18:12
Magnalon
What I meant to say was:

"I'll argue to the death that a spiritual successor to MM8 would have been a better experience than retro-fitting MM9".
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 20:00
Tascar
Hi hi again Magnalon, I agree with you. MM8 is pretty excellent despite little quirks I had with it.

With respect to Mega Man ZX and Advent ZX, I hsve to confess that I have not tried those. For whatever reason, I tend to be various odd with respect to what point in a system's lifecycle that I joined and so in the portable realm, I went from the first generation white brick Game Boy to the red DS Lite so I kind of missed those games back when they were out and around and I haven't gotten the chance to try those. I think another contributing factor was that I saw that Mega Man NT or Battle Network or whatever it was called was totally not at all a Mega Man game in the way that I remembered and so I admit to be someone that in general ignores new Mega Man franchises because I kind of expect that they are too different for me.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 21:07
Tubatic
ZOMG so much text for little old Mega Man 9?!

Let me see what's going on here...
Magnalon's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 21:11
Magnalon
@Tascar
Despite my initial hostility in my opening comments, <3 <3
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 21:18
Tascar
@Magnalon, <3 <3 to you too!
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 21:41
Tubatic
Yep. You guys pretty much covered it! But I'll throw in on this one:

I found MM9 to be pretty tricky! MM2, even on hard mode, is a pretty straight forward romp (You know, except that damn crash bomb boss in Wily's Castle). But it wasn't especially unfair.

I always take some quarrel with the "memorization" criticism for Mega Man and other games with "retro" difficulty sensibilities (like Mirror's Edge). I feel that these games instill in you, through your repeated faliures, both a sense of muscle memory skill (I don't really count this as memorization...symantics?) and a pretty clear routine for what the best strategy is for you, individually. I enjoy that on a level that isn't about being badass for doing it (ok there's a LITTLE bit of that!) but more for the unique experience of getting on that level. I wrote a blog about it last year. But hey, we all get something different from the games we played, which really is fascinating!

To come to the end point with you guys, the ZX games are definitely worth checking out. They do some things well (the amp up of pattern recogniton in the boss is pretty challenging- very "next level"), but others pretty poorly (The map world can get a little unclear and difficult to navigate). Given a choice between the two, I'd recommend ZX before Advent.
Wry Guy's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 22:14
Wry Guy
@Magnalon: You finally got around to ordering those, huh? You were talking about getting those since way back in my Mega Man VII article, which I will note to Tascar Mega Man VII had lots of great stuff going for it. It was well crafted and had subtle but ingenious level design. I consider it just as good as Mega Man X. My article on it got a huge response. Mega Man VII actually has a really solid fanbase.

The more opinionated Mega Man fans just like to bitch about it, very vocally. I seem to be that guy who appreciates the craftsmanship behind a game nobody else will acknowledge. The Temple of the Ocean King? Genius. Mega Man VII's level design? Genius. God Hand's everything? Oh, shit. Total genius.

I think my review series really just ends up being me talking about what makes a game genius.
lovemana23's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 22:22
lovemana23
Wow man, a lot of issues you have with things. I don`t know....I think you`re being overly negative about a very good situation right now in games. Don`t get me wrong, I totally get some of you`re points, and agree with them, and I haven`t played Mega Man 9 so I can`t comment on that. But from what other serious retro-heads have reported, it sounds like a top game, and I doubt that you would be so isolated in you`re negative appraisal of the game if it was THAT bad. However, games are subjective, so it's worth baring in mind that at the other end of the scale from extremes of notsalgia that can blind a retro gamer to a games limitations, is negativity and assumptions about the limitations of modern games (thanks to history betraying the 2D legacy), before you`ve given them a chance. I`m sure (hypothetically) if somehow, someway, you had made a new mega-man game, or a team at capcom with your exact kind of love and dedication to the NES and SNES games, would of made something even better than Mega Man 9. Or so you could think. But, in all likelhood, that IS what occured. I`m sure the team who worked on Mega Man 9 were all old players, and mega-man obsessives. At a guess. So, perhaps it really is a case of just being too hard on the game? Who knows....I just doubt it is as you seem to think it is: i.e. capcom taking the quickest easiest route. For sure, that`s what they would of done in the meeting rooms at HQ, but, when it came down to it, they had to deliver something at least half decent. So they would of mustered a Mega Man harcore team, probably made up of some of the old developers and some new, but MM savvy, ones.

Also, just to point out that I know where you`re coming from, I gave up on games around 1999, dissapointed ultimately with the N64 and the new dominance of 3D, until the gamecube came out and I was tempted by Rogue Squadrons Star Wars badassery. But, I still never got back into games as much as I was all through the 90s. However, in the last few years, it has practically turned into exactly what I dreamed it would - lots of new retro-styled games, with effort being made, new ideas, and even more beautiful graphics. I really think you`re a little jaded and have lost some perspective if you assume that the teams working on these games are just doing it half-arsed; not really caring because 'it`s just fodder for those stereotypical retro-heads'. No. If anything, if you can`t appreciate retro games these days, then you have lost the ability to engage with new, retro-leaning matireal out of some sort of delusion that this is just not possible these days. I know the way the 'SNES' era ended, and the games industry abandonded 2D, hurt, and left scars, with all of us who loved that time - but, still, it doesn`t mean it can`t come back around! Like, the SNES era all over again. I truly believe it nearly is. I`ve played and loved most of the recent Castlevania games on DS - and have enjoyed them, especially Aria of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin, at least as much as SON. I only got around to playing SON a few years ago, so, again, I was coming to that with aged eyes - and it really isnt any better or worse than the recent DS outings. Fair enough, without SON, there wouldn`t be any DS outings. The SON formula is admittedly a formula. But it fucking works! And is a lot of fun. You can`t take Super Mario Worlds brilliance away from it because Super Mario Bros 3 exists. They take what's good and build from there. I don`t really see how the DS outings of Castlevania could of been much better. They had awesome, awesome gameplay, a huge play area to explore, gorgeous graphics and top, top music (by the same composer as SON, BTW). New Super Mario Brothers was awesome, and inventive, and heart-racing, and immersive, and uplifting - just like mario should be. If I was 13 I would of loved it even more! New Super Mario Bros Wii (fingers crossed, touch wood) should, basically, be the fucking return of 2D mario on our big screens, on our current gen console. This is not a bad time dude, this is good time. Get some perspective dude!

And before you retort assuming i`m one of these easily pleased retro-numbskulls you insinuate exist - i`m not. And they probably don`t exist. The fact we`re retro gamers would usually suggest we`re older, thus wiser, and (usually) a little more jaded. We`re also stuck for time more, making us impatient while playing. However, we`d be the first to spot someone cashing in on the retro style we love with shoddy interpretations that just tick boxes for what we want. It`s a shame you just haven`t enjoyed some of the neo-retro games out there. I`m personally SO geeky about the particulars of 2D, SNES era games, and the design, music (especially the music) and the graphics, and i`ve enjoyed lots of the newer, mainly DS based, retro style 2D games.

But games are still, to some extent, what you make of them. I know it seems obvious, but your enjoyment of games is not a perfectly stable medium, outside of being effected by your existential qualms. In all liklihood, during the golden years, you were a teenager, with a teenagers reserves of will, determination, and sense of fun - school being fun or not. You cannot expect the games developers to hand you`re youth back to you! That's why, ya know, get excited. Because these new retro games are probably as good as the old games, or at least getting near. No kids these days will think so, in the manner we used to, because they've got the bright lights and distractions of 3D - but it doesn`t mean they CAN`T enjoy 'retro' games. It`s like you said about painting and photography. That is what we have been going through, and are now passing out of. 2D is back, for good, and we are the people that should support it, and demonstrate to others its gold - not doubt it for pedantic reasons, or be fooled by our own pessimism. That is the adult in us spoiling the fun, even after wishing for it all these years. There are teams making really decent modern retro style games, and the whole retro thing makes them something 'modern' players might avoid, citing it just as a 'retro game'; a novelty. Yet, 2D offers a completely different experience, as you said. An amazing, unique experience, and one that will hopefully now reach whole new generations of gamers. It has too, and will I believe! :)

It`s all good man!

Good read BTW.
Gen Eric Gui's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 22:44
Gen Eric Gui
You mentioned tha tyou like to play through Megaman games without ever using the special weapons...that's one of the things I loved so much about 9. The Special Weapons were designed TO be useful, and you were always given way more shots then you needed to kill boss weaknesses, which encouraged you to use the items during the levels. In fact, MM9 is the first MM game since 3 to have an entire set of useful subweapons that served purposes other than to hit boss weaknesses. With careful use of subweapons like the Tornado Blow and Black Hole Gun, you can clear levels without ever stopping running, and you feel like such a badass doing it.

THAT'S what Megaman is about to me, and I suggest you try it sometime. You might find that your appreciation of the game is much greater when you actually use your powerups.


As to the difficult parts you suggested:

Flower Boss: Laser Trident kills it in 8 shots, and you can get 3 hits in per cycle. Cement Shot kills it in 5 hits, but you have to get a weird angle. Charged Magma Cannon gets it in 2, but you have to get really close and risk getting hit. The best bet is to get on the opposite side of it and fire three Tridents at it in rapid succession, then circle around to the spot the flower as at, since it never repeats the same tile twice in a row. You can kill him in about 15 seconds this way.

Jewel Man Jump: This jump stymied me for a while too, the trick is to run the entire length of the platform, and just as it starts to move backwards just tap the jump button. You'll make a tiny hop and pass right under the spike every time. Making those kinds of tiny hops should be second nature to you, since they're required in every other MM game. The same kind of jump is used in the opening section of Hornet Man's level, in fact.

Wily 2 Water jumps: Several of those can be made by jumping early and hitting the ceiling (assuming there's no spikes there) and just holding the button to get a floaty ceiling jump. Keep moving and you'll make it across every time.

And as Magnalon already mentioned, if the head grabber gets you in Wily 3, activate Jewel Shield and it dies and you stop dead. And before you bring up "But what if I need the shield charge?" ask yourself this. Which is more important? A single charge of the Jewel Shield, or your life?

There's always an answer in MM9. Always.
Deathofthedead's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 22:51
Deathofthedead
@Tascar
They've tried taking the Castlevania series out from under the shadow of SotN. IGA tried twice on PS2, even once on the Wii, and now Kojima's gonna try on PS3/360. Me, I'll be happy as long as they keep busting out intelligent, beautiful, handheld sidescrolling RPGs every year or two.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 23:30
Tascar
@Wry Guy,

I think that I made a massive error in word choice in my brief discussion on MM7. My words were:

"Mega Man 7 on the SNES didn't suck because it was 16-bit: it sucked because it came near the end of the SNES lifecycle and looked and played like a fairly ordinary and unambitious game. To be fair, Mega Man 7 is actually one of my favorite Mega Man games but I also do confess that it simply did not have the WOW HOLY SHIT factor that many SNES games like Super Metroid and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past had. Of course, it certainly did not help that Capcom was in fact doing alot of interesting and exciting things in the Mega Man X series and in fact, Mega Man X2, one of the best Mega Man games period, had come out right before Mega Man 7."

When I used the word "suck" I was referring to the popular conception of MM7 as a failure (definitely a sentiment expressed in the RetroforceGO! episode was referring to) and not my personal opinion of the game but I see that this was a poor choice of words on my part. As I said, MM7 is my personal favorite game past MM4 and I am in agreement with you on that game. Again, my "criticism" of the game was mainly about the fact that Capcom admittedly advanced the whole MM franchise greatly with MMX. They advanced the series further in MMX2 and I remember Capcom hyping up the whole usage of the C2 chip that they were introducing with MMX2. Then you get to MM7, which did not use a C2 chip, and while I like it (I love the Rush suit), I know that alot of people felt let down and I can sort of understand why.

And now connecting down to lovemana23's point, I think when it comes to Mega Man, MM9 was probably the wrong game to come out in the wrong time for me. While many people hated Mega Man past MM3, I feel that I gave the series alot of love myself even up and into MM8. I recognized why people didn't like the new MM games and did think that many of these were valid points, but I suppose that I forgave Capcom because even the worst MM game was better than the average game. In addition, I suppose I could understand that the tight and fast production schedules of these games might have made it hard to look back and reexamine the big picture.

My negativity towards Capcom for MM9 comes from the fact that I feel like I have been extremely kind and generous towards Capcom and the MM franchise and I felt that at the least, I expected that after nearly a decade of waiting for a sequel to MM8, that when the sequel actually comes, it would blow me away. From where I am coming from, I think you can see why I was disappointed and very annoyed.

@lovemana23

I know that this may come as a shock to you given how many articles I have written lately that in some way is negative towards Nintendo, but I think that I attribute alot of my negativity towards the current state of retrogaming to the fact that Nintendo did such an incredible job of it back in the NES and SNES days.

If I am negative and claim that people are being too complacent, it is because in my opinion Nintendo did too good of a job showing people how to develop series and franchises. In regards to its main franchise installments, Nintendo shows that they are generally interested in moving forward. Sometimes they move forward in a direction that does not appeal to me (such as the 3-D Mario games) but at least I respect that they moved forward and put their all into it. In addition, for every fuck like me who didn't like the 3-D Mario games, there seem to be 10 more that do, and I am glad that these players exist and have something they like to play.

Consider "Ocarina of Time" and "Majora's Mask." On one hand, I suppose I could say that "Majora's Mask" is just a redressing or expansion pack of "Ocarina of Time." Yet Miyamoto and Nintendo wasn't just content to do a second Ocarina of Time: Miyamoto used the basic Ocarina engine and did something completely unique and different with it. For the most part, even a "retreaded" Nintendo game feels wholly original and unique. For another example, consider Metroid: Zero Mission. Not only content to update the original game, Zero Mission completely revamps and unconditionally improves over the original game as well as adding an epilogue to the game. I'll admit that I was disappointed with Fusion but damn, when Nintendo wants to go back to 2-D Metroid, as they did with Zero Mission, they are doing it right.

I suppose this is why I am annoyed. I understand that we all have different tolerances and I suppose that mine is less than yours. I just feel that If a small studio like The Behemoth can come up with games that look as good and play as good as they are, there is no excuse that Capcom or Konami, developers with far more resources, cannot do the same. When I see a game like Contra: Rebirth, that proports to be a game for us retrofans, I am insulted when I see that the resulting game can't even compare to Contra III, which is over 10 years old now. This is why I slammed Konami with its Castlevania games.

I suppose what separates Symphony of the Night with the other games to me is that Castlevania is to me the most impressive work of video game architecture in gaming history. The castle is incredibly well designed. There is not a single part of the castle that I don't find interesting. I can right now close my eyes and I can mentally visualize almost all the parts of the castle and I honestl haven't even played the game that much. Of course, the amazing thing about the castle is that it not only works rightside up but it also works upside down. I hold Symphony of the Night on a pedestal because I'll admit, the gameplay element of Castlevania is pretty developed now. But this is the only game where so many attention was paid to the environment that the castle itself feels like a character and a huge part of the game. In this regard, I don't think there is a single Castlevania game that even comes close to this.

@Gen Eric Gui,

I generally have this thing where I know that it is possible to do every starting level without a weapon and so even though I suppose I understand your point about MM9, I confess that I don't use weapons in the stages until we get to Dr. Wily stages. I suppose in that regard, MM9 departs from previous MM games, as you said so as well.

With respect to the difficult parts you mentioned, I understand your point and I know what you mean, but can you at least concede the point that overall, the difficulty of MM9 is greater than that of MM2/MM3 (considered to be the holy grail of the series)? From what you say, it seems that all MM games are equally easy to you, but I just can't get over how much harder I find MM9 than MM2 or MM3. I'll just comment on the flower boss for example. It's not a hard boss at all. But it's just time consuming. It relies heavily on either blowing your weapons or hoping for the luck of the draw in the random spawn location. Yes, it's not too difficult to beat it: but it's annoying and it just doesn't strike me as needing to be that time consuming.

And yes, there is always an answer. However, when a game is right off the bat that frustrating and annoying to me, which technically shouldn't be possible given that I consider myself very capable in the other MM games, I just don't feel compelled to go forward if I have something better to do.

@Deathofthedead,

I am not sure I agree with your definition of taking something out of the shadow. The Wii game was a fighter and so I think that it is ought that the game was never intended to mark a new age in Castlevania. While I admit that I do not know much about Kojima's game, I feel like this game has been pitched and marketed in a way that makes me think of the game as a side story or rather an experiment rather than a defacto sequel to Castlevania.

With respect to the Ps2 Castlevania games and the N64 games, I think a problem of Castlevania is that from a certain point of view, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night shouldn't technically be considered a "real" Castlevania game.

For the most part, the popular Castlevania games (original, 3, Super, Rondo of Blood), have been fairly linear action platformers where you play as a character that cannot fly or do superhuman jumps. From this point of view, Symphony of the Night strays so far from the formula that it's not even a real Castlevania game anymore. However, I feel like because this game was enormous in scope, was a ridiculously good game, and was the first and only 2-D Castlevania game to hit the 32-bit platform, it "became" the defacto Castlevania standard.

From a mechanics point of view, I agree that Konami tried to take the Castlevania series forward with the Ps2 and N64 games. I'd argue that they did it poorly, but I do agree that they did try to get it out of the shadow of Symphony in that regard. However, I feel like Symphony ended up setting the precedent of huge environments and exploration and so from that regard, I think that Konami has yet to make a game that attempts to take Castlevania out of the shadow of Symphony of the Night.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 23:30
Tascar
@Wry Guy,

I think that I made a massive error in word choice in my brief discussion on MM7. My words were:

"Mega Man 7 on the SNES didn't suck because it was 16-bit: it sucked because it came near the end of the SNES lifecycle and looked and played like a fairly ordinary and unambitious game. To be fair, Mega Man 7 is actually one of my favorite Mega Man games but I also do confess that it simply did not have the WOW HOLY SHIT factor that many SNES games like Super Metroid and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past had. Of course, it certainly did not help that Capcom was in fact doing alot of interesting and exciting things in the Mega Man X series and in fact, Mega Man X2, one of the best Mega Man games period, had come out right before Mega Man 7."

When I used the word "suck" I was referring to the popular conception of MM7 as a failure (definitely a sentiment expressed in the RetroforceGO! episode was referring to) and not my personal opinion of the game but I see that this was a poor choice of words on my part. As I said, MM7 is my personal favorite game past MM4 and I am in agreement with you on that game. Again, my "criticism" of the game was mainly about the fact that Capcom admittedly advanced the whole MM franchise greatly with MMX. They advanced the series further in MMX2 and I remember Capcom hyping up the whole usage of the C2 chip that they were introducing with MMX2. Then you get to MM7, which did not use a C2 chip, and while I like it (I love the Rush suit), I know that alot of people felt let down and I can sort of understand why.

And now connecting down to lovemana23's point, I think when it comes to Mega Man, MM9 was probably the wrong game to come out in the wrong time for me. While many people hated Mega Man past MM3, I feel that I gave the series alot of love myself even up and into MM8. I recognized why people didn't like the new MM games and did think that many of these were valid points, but I suppose that I forgave Capcom because even the worst MM game was better than the average game. In addition, I suppose I could understand that the tight and fast production schedules of these games might have made it hard to look back and reexamine the big picture.

My negativity towards Capcom for MM9 comes from the fact that I feel like I have been extremely kind and generous towards Capcom and the MM franchise and I felt that at the least, I expected that after nearly a decade of waiting for a sequel to MM8, that when the sequel actually comes, it would blow me away. From where I am coming from, I think you can see why I was disappointed and very annoyed.

@lovemana23

I know that this may come as a shock to you given how many articles I have written lately that in some way is negative towards Nintendo, but I think that I attribute alot of my negativity towards the current state of retrogaming to the fact that Nintendo did such an incredible job of it back in the NES and SNES days.

If I am negative and claim that people are being too complacent, it is because in my opinion Nintendo did too good of a job showing people how to develop series and franchises. In regards to its main franchise installments, Nintendo shows that they are generally interested in moving forward. Sometimes they move forward in a direction that does not appeal to me (such as the 3-D Mario games) but at least I respect that they moved forward and put their all into it. In addition, for every fuck like me who didn't like the 3-D Mario games, there seem to be 10 more that do, and I am glad that these players exist and have something they like to play.

Consider "Ocarina of Time" and "Majora's Mask." On one hand, I suppose I could say that "Majora's Mask" is just a redressing or expansion pack of "Ocarina of Time." Yet Miyamoto and Nintendo wasn't just content to do a second Ocarina of Time: Miyamoto used the basic Ocarina engine and did something completely unique and different with it. For the most part, even a "retreaded" Nintendo game feels wholly original and unique. For another example, consider Metroid: Zero Mission. Not only content to update the original game, Zero Mission completely revamps and unconditionally improves over the original game as well as adding an epilogue to the game. I'll admit that I was disappointed with Fusion but damn, when Nintendo wants to go back to 2-D Metroid, as they did with Zero Mission, they are doing it right.

I suppose this is why I am annoyed. I understand that we all have different tolerances and I suppose that mine is less than yours. I just feel that If a small studio like The Behemoth can come up with games that look as good and play as good as they are, there is no excuse that Capcom or Konami, developers with far more resources, cannot do the same. When I see a game like Contra: Rebirth, that proports to be a game for us retrofans, I am insulted when I see that the resulting game can't even compare to Contra III, which is over 10 years old now. This is why I slammed Konami with its Castlevania games.

I suppose what separates Symphony of the Night with the other games to me is that Castlevania is to me the most impressive work of video game architecture in gaming history. The castle is incredibly well designed. There is not a single part of the castle that I don't find interesting. I can right now close my eyes and I can mentally visualize almost all the parts of the castle and I honestl haven't even played the game that much. Of course, the amazing thing about the castle is that it not only works rightside up but it also works upside down. I hold Symphony of the Night on a pedestal because I'll admit, the gameplay element of Castlevania is pretty developed now. But this is the only game where so many attention was paid to the environment that the castle itself feels like a character and a huge part of the game. In this regard, I don't think there is a single Castlevania game that even comes close to this.

@Gen Eric Gui,

I generally have this thing where I know that it is possible to do every starting level without a weapon and so even though I suppose I understand your point about MM9, I confess that I don't use weapons in the stages until we get to Dr. Wily stages. I suppose in that regard, MM9 departs from previous MM games, as you said so as well.

With respect to the difficult parts you mentioned, I understand your point and I know what you mean, but can you at least concede the point that overall, the difficulty of MM9 is greater than that of MM2/MM3 (considered to be the holy grail of the series)? From what you say, it seems that all MM games are equally easy to you, but I just can't get over how much harder I find MM9 than MM2 or MM3. I'll just comment on the flower boss for example. It's not a hard boss at all. But it's just time consuming. It relies heavily on either blowing your weapons or hoping for the luck of the draw in the random spawn location. Yes, it's not too difficult to beat it: but it's annoying and it just doesn't strike me as needing to be that time consuming.

And yes, there is always an answer. However, when a game is right off the bat that frustrating and annoying to me, which technically shouldn't be possible given that I consider myself very capable in the other MM games, I just don't feel compelled to go forward if I have something better to do.

@Deathofthedead,

I am not sure I agree with your definition of taking something out of the shadow. The Wii game was a fighter and so I think that it is ought that the game was never intended to mark a new age in Castlevania. While I admit that I do not know much about Kojima's game, I feel like this game has been pitched and marketed in a way that makes me think of the game as a side story or rather an experiment rather than a defacto sequel to Castlevania.

With respect to the Ps2 Castlevania games and the N64 games, I think a problem of Castlevania is that from a certain point of view, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night shouldn't technically be considered a "real" Castlevania game.

For the most part, the popular Castlevania games (original, 3, Super, Rondo of Blood), have been fairly linear action platformers where you play as a character that cannot fly or do superhuman jumps. From this point of view, Symphony of the Night strays so far from the formula that it's not even a real Castlevania game anymore. However, I feel like because this game was enormous in scope, was a ridiculously good game, and was the first and only 2-D Castlevania game to hit the 32-bit platform, it "became" the defacto Castlevania standard.

From a mechanics point of view, I agree that Konami tried to take the Castlevania series forward with the Ps2 and N64 games. I'd argue that they did it poorly, but I do agree that they did try to get it out of the shadow of Symphony in that regard. However, I feel like Symphony ended up setting the precedent of huge environments and exploration and so from that regard, I think that Konami has yet to make a game that attempts to take Castlevania out of the shadow of Symphony of the Night.
Dyson's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 23:48
Dyson
There's a whole lot of things that I would like to discuss about this article and its comment section, but I can (for the sake of time and whatnot) sum my response up as thus:

I really like this article and the opinion expressed, and can see (and agree with) a lot of the opinions you've argued. I don't disagree on any point in particular, in fact mostly agree with you on a lot of the issues you brought up.

I liked MM9, but that's personal preference. I'm not even going to defend the game since even a person from Capcom once told me it had "cheap instant death spots riddled throughout," and I agree. It does play on the retro gamers heart-strings, and it doesn't really push the series forward in any way gameplay wise or technically, but I did like the title because it was fun to me as a person.

I also jive with your references to Zelda, Metroid, Bionic Commando: RA, and what you have to say about them. You and I should talk some time, for reals. Great article.
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/25/2009 23:52
Tascar
Thanks Dyson. I appreciate the comments and again, I thank you for your work on RetroforceGO! which got me through a week in the hospital over a year ago. :)

Incidentally, anyone in power able to delete my double-post above Dyson's commment?
Dyson's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 00:01
Dyson
No problem. The article was well thought out and intelligently written with a lot of good points. I'm wondering to myself if I was on this episode because I don't actually remember this happening. If I wasn't I wish I had been, but I'm wondering how I would have answered this question at the time. Maybe the next time we start recording we can have you on for one of the community participation shows, it would be a pretty interesting discussion I bet.

And glad to hear that the show helped you through your hospital visit; thank you or thanks!
Deathofthedead's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 00:06
Deathofthedead
@ Tascar
I disagree with several points you make here.

A) Just because it's vastly different from the Castlevanias that came before it doesn't make Symphony any less "real" a series installment. While I'll admit that it has set the standard/mold that the series has more or less followed since, considering some main-series installments to be more or less 'real' than others is in no way accurate. That's like saying that Army of Darkness isn't a 'real' sequel to Evil Dead II because it's so different in style and tone.

B) I took your phrase 'out from under the shadow of Symphony' to mean a branching out of gameplay styles, as opposed to what I thought you were protesting (ie lots of Metroidvanias). Both PS2 3D installments took the series in a different gameplay direction (especially Lament of Innocence, which some would say is a throwback to what you term the 'real' Castlevanias, with its lack of RPG elements and overall focus on all-out whip action) and the Wii installment, while a side project, did take the franchise in wild new directions, gameplay-wise, the fact that it wasn't very good notwithstanding.

C) Kojima's new Castlevania project is, by all accounts, the new "main" installment of the franchise, and as such, an indication of where the series is going from here (assuming the game sells well). It, too, appears to change the gameplay wildly, with a God of War-style combat system and what appears to be Prince of Persia-esque platforming sequences.

D) I'm a little confused about exactly what you're trying to say. One second you're praising Symphony, but overall you're saying you're sick of that style, is that it? Where would you suggest they take the series? I'm not being an ass, I'm genuinely curious: where should they take it from here?

I hope my comments aren't coming across as confrontational or angry; this is the best gaming discussion I've been involved with in weeks :D
God bless Destructoid and its many awesome members!
Gen Eric Gui's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 00:21
Gen Eric Gui
Well, like I said above, I still find MM1 and 2 to be brutally difficult, to the point that even though I know the exact path to take and all the perfect times to use sub-weapons and what have you, I still die constantly and often can't complete them within the space of a continue(Which I would consider "easy" for an NES-era game). There's too many random elements, and I don't do well with random in Megaman. 9 is entirely predictable, which is its best and worst feature.
CWal37's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 01:13
CWal37
Man, but when is Legends 3 coming out? That's what I'm waiting for.
Torzelan's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 02:48
Torzelan
Ouch, ran low on time and realized I was only half-way through the comments - will finish later 'cause they're great - but just wanted to say (and hope it hasn't been said too much already):

Great article spawning great discussion; FAP'D!

Disagree with... maybe not so much points, but the ways certain points are presented and personal opinions presented as fact. It's kinda douchey* to tell people that what they like isn't actually good and they've just been tricked, oh silly blind low expectation people you.

I've played through all the classic MM's (recently as well) and feel that 9 really is one of my favorites. MM2 will always hold the throne for me for being perfect at everything ever, and MM9 is a strong contender for being the runner-up at having few and small weaknesses - I too dislike the whole "shop" thing, especially since it's so excruciatingly slow, but hey - don't have to use it. What we do have to use though is Wii's wireless stuff with, to me at least, noticeable and unavoidable input delay and I dare say (since I have obviously bought the game[/i]) that I wish it'll be emulated on the PC in the future (no hurry; perhaps when it wouldn't take profits off Capcom anymore as with the NES ones) so I can run through that, still on my TV but using a USB NES controller and no input delay.

MM1 was too hard for me back in the day (and still feels super difficult without "cheating"/glitching), perhaps because of not getting a fraction of the game time 2 got.

Never got into MM3 for some reason, perhaps wasn't ready to accept "stupid" concepts like a Snake Man and whatnot. Found the level visuals to be a bit less enjoyable than its predecessor too. Sliding was cool though. Massive bonus points for having one of the best game music tracks as title theme! One of my favorite things to just casually pick the guitar up and play...

MM9 just "feels good man" :) And that's all that matters to me. Probably wasn't resource demanding to make compared to big games nowadays or "difficult" in the same way, but I thought they did a hell of a job capturing the old Mega Man feel which, especially with the music, is in no way easy or "lazy". Making something sound NES? Easy as hell. Making something sound Mega Man and be worthy of standing alongside the originals? Takes something special. And Splash Woman's stage music isn't just acceptable, it's one of the best <3

* You're awesome, just to make that clear :)

Sorry again if all this has been said already, will certainly come back and read up.
Artemus's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 03:50
Artemus
Nice, refreshing read...
Although, I hope you truly believe in what you are preaching. Nowadays, it seems, so many people tend to disagree just to be different. I trust this isn't the case here.
I value your stated opinions, but I do not agree with them.
Mega Man 9 is one helluva game, now. It's everything I look for in a platformer... Incredible music, amazing level design and challenging gameplay. Sure, Capcom went back to basics in terms of the 8-bit look and gameplay for retro style points, yet updated graphics or moves would have done little to impact the game, in my eyes.
You also have to remember the incredible value MM9 gives considering it's a downloadable game sold at a low price. I still enjoy playing it a year after its release. That must be a testament... If not, I don't know what is.
Monodi's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 05:20
Monodi
Let me get something clear, you might have already mentioned it (there is just a fat fuck amount of text in this page including the comments), but what is it that you love about Megaman? You simply seem to negate everything people love about it, and probably if I am not sloppy, even go against your own reasons of wy you like it.
Jonathan Holmes's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 08:27
Jonathan Holmes
Holy Crap, I wish I could read all these comments, but I just can't do it. I've never seen comments of such epic size and scope.

So I apologize if this has already been said, but "pushing things forward" and "going retro" are pretty much two opposite things. For that reason, I don't think you can call "retro-styled" games like the Bit.Trip series and Castle Crashers truly "retro" games. They are games that are pushing genres gaming forward that had been ignored for a while, without spending too much time reusing game design techniques of the past.

Maybe that's really what you want from the "retro-revolution"- new games from classic genres. If so, that's great, I want that too, but I also want to play Mega Man 9 and Retro Game Challenge.

Can't we have our cake and eat it too?
Tascar's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 09:04
Tascar
@Jonathan Holmes,

I think that your conciseness is proof of your genius. In the beginning of my cblog, I discussed how I did not like the term "retro" because it implies that the draw of "retro" is in the age and the external trappings whereas for me, it is exactly what you described as "pushing genres gaming forward that had been ignored for a while."

I agree that there's a place for "Mega Man 9" and "Retro Game Challenge." However ironically, I feel that your choice of these two games somewhat help to explain my point.

In my opinion, art should inspire to move forward. To use the example of film: computers are now at our disposal. We are able to have color and sound in our movies now. There's no reason, resources aside, that a filmmaker should not use all the tools at his or her disposal. That being said, I like it when a filmmaker does something retro for a deliberate purpose. I love Sin City's choice of black and white mixed with touches of color to evoke that film noir feel. I love that Schindler's List chooses to go black and white in order to capture the feeling of the 1940s that Spielberg saw in black and white photographs.

I can't fault "Retro Game Challenge" for anything because it is a deliberate part of the design of the game that it looks and sounds a certain way. The game itself simply would not work if you did it with 3-D HD sprites. In contrast, as I expressed in my cblog and comments, to me, there is nothing in Mega Man 9 that requires the game to look and feel like a 8-bit game. To me, it just feels like another trip to the dried up well.

Granted, you are right in that there is nothing "wrong" with a game like Mega Man 9. However, as I said with my mentioning of Ikagaki and Konami's subsequent "Rebirth" series, I feel like developers either don't see the different or they don't care. I feel like for many developers, "retro" is about one thing only: costs and I feel like that bodes badly for retro gaming.

The Bit Trip series and Castle Crashers, if they could have somehow been out in the 16-bit or 32-bit era, they would have been full-priced games that were loved by everyone. I admit that I am not happy with MM9 but I concede that if MM9 actually came out in the 8-bit era, people would have at least saw it as a worthy followup to the 8-bit games (even though I think it's way too difficult). In contrast, Contra: Rebirth feels like it would have been trashed if you released it on the SNES after Contra III: The Alien Wars. Likewise, Final Fantasy IV: The After Years, simply could not hold a candle to any of Square's RPGs in the SNES era. Yet I feel like games like Contra: Rebirth and Final Fantasy IV: The After Years exist and make money because developers know that they don't need to spend alot of the resources making it and I think that due to the low download price and because of nostalgia, people will buy it.

I read your review of Contra Rebirth and I had heard the same criticisms you had echoed by alot of people, but I still bought it anyway. I was indeed entertained despite the problems, partly because I wanted the thrill of a Contra like game. However, I can't help think that in some ways, my purchase just ends up confirming to Konami that it's ok to make a game that isn't very polished or can even stand up aside an installment 10 years ago as long as it sort of tugs at my heart strings. I think that's what drove me to write this cblog: my concern that yes, I do agree that we can have our cake and eat it too. However, I am not sure we have sent that message to developers based on what I see.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 10:48
Tubatic
@Tascar

This really is an awesome article and comment thread: nice work!

About "retro" as a cheapy method: I can see where you would feel the way you do. Itagaki has been running that line about cost effectiveness and demand for YEARS now! We could blame him very much for that opinion being pretty popular in terms of "retro" considerations. But, personally, I think chattling Inafune/Capcom with that onus is a little unfair, or at least, a little distrusting.

PR tours are PR tours, but Inafune ended up talking alot about what put them in the retro direction. here's an interview with Games Radar where he talks about the decision to go 8-bit. However, certainly, to have heard the guy talk about Mega Man prior to the announcement of 9, money was a huge factor. Which makes sense: that guy's a producer now, where he used to an artist. This is an interview with Inafune from 2007, where he talks about Mega Man and money

So, sure, it happens to be cheaper and maybe a little less labor intensive in some ways to make an 8-bit Mega Man for downloads compared to Legends 3 on disc, or even a handdrawn concept expansion. But I feel that there's a genuine appreciation of 8-bit artstyle held by a good number of people, once you wade through the posers with space invaders T-Shirts that don't know what an IntelliVision is.
Tubatic's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 11:26
Tubatic
lol re-read some comments (yeah, I loves this thread): strike "distrusting" from my last comment! :)
lovemana23's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/26/2009 11:48
lovemana23
@Tascar

I`d also like to point out that I totally agree with you on your points on the rebirth series - like you said, if they had come out on the SNES at the time they would of been very average games and rated in the press accordingly. Plus, graphically and sonically they look and sound more akin to a mega-drive game, which is odd (and a little lame) seeing as it surely wouldn`t of been difficult for Nintendo to properly emulate the SNES` graphics and sounds. So, there is definitely some more effort that needs to be made by developers, I agree there. But I think as this retro-revival continues to gather momentum, we will see increasingly higher quality retro-remakes/new games in a retro fasion, and just generally lots of top 2D shizzle. *sigh* finally!!!
dwolfwood's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:06
dwolfwood
what just happened? o-o why is this in the latest news? lol
Hcapt's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:13
Hcapt
@ Tascar - You know, normally I think you are completely full of yourself and miss the point of gaming.

But right now, you just echoed not only the thoughts of most people on gaming (that comment about Mario 64 is mirrored by Japanese purchasing trends toward Super Mario Galaxy), but also identified everything that is wrong with gaming in general - a lack of risks and progression in favor of recycled content.

Your opinions actually mirror one of my favorite bloggers on the subject of Megaman 9, and this is the only time you two have been in agreement that I know of. Except where you put hard, he would say filled with cheap deaths and where you say stale, he would say lacking in content.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/the-two-big-problems-of-mega-man-9/
BahamutZero's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:17
BahamutZero
somebody call the whaaaaaaambulence. what a fucking whiner. things change. get over it.
lem's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:19
lem
@dwolfwood
why not? It's a well written c-blog that's been promoted to the front page.
Not only is the size and quality of this one quite epic, it's pulling alot of responses from people too.

Nice one Tascar!
mrplow8's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:20
mrplow8
That pic should have Banjo as Judas, since Rare betrayed Nintendo.
atastysammich's Avatar - Comment posted on 09/27/2009 15:21
atastysammich
Marry me.
prev next 50 comments

Comment with Facebook





Click connect and comment instantly!

Comment with Dtoid





New? SIGN UP - it takes 5 seconds

Comments policy

Destructoid is an open discussion community. You don't need to "audition" to post a comment - just speak your mind. We respect differing opinions on the site, so have at it. Be smart, funny, insightful, clueless, or cute -- but back it up with substance. Keep your cool, keep it fun. We only ask that you act respectfully and above all: don't be a troll and ruin it for everyone else. Don't bring down gamers or we'll, you know, gently shoot you in the face and stuff you into a flaming mailbox. Each comment is your opportuntity to make this community awesomer. Is that even a word?

Avoiding the banhammer only requires common sense: spamming, trolling, racism, NSFW stuff, and other forms of sucking will not be tolerated. If anyone is griefing please report abuse. Be good. Don't suck!

 
New on Destructoid.TV play all videos

Loading
Loading Destructoid Videos


    Win this!
    Dive in! meetup+play for a chance to win a PC

    Dtoid Twitter    Got news?   tips@destructoid.com

    Reviews & Previews
    Assassin's Creed 2 review
    Crossfire Remote Pistol review
    Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles review
    Left 4 Dead 2 review
    Call of Duty: Modern Warfare Reflex review
    more reviews
    Driver
    Avatar
    GT Racing Motor Academy
    Bad Company 2 beta dishes out meaningful experiences
    Legend of Zelda Spirit Tracks
    more previews


    - The Dtoid Army is 50999 strong -

    Showing Cblogs with 3+ faps   show all

    Call for entries: do the wrong thing

    New to Dtoid? Read the survival guide




     Originals
    Ashley Davis: Badass of the Month Club: Terry S. Taylor





















    More Destructoid Originals




     Popular now more






















    Team Destructoid   tips@destructoid.com
    Nick Chester
    Editor-in-Chief
    Niero
    Founder, publisher
    Jim Sterling
    Reviews Editor
    Hamza Aziz
    Community Manager
    Dale North
    News Editor
    Rey Gutierrez
    Video editor & director
    Anthony Burch
    Features Editor
    Colette Bennett
    Tom Fronczak Brad Nicholson
    Ashley Davis Ben Perlee
    Conrad
    Zimmerman
    Chad Concelmo
    Jonathan Holmes Jonathan Ross
    Brad Rice Jordan Devore
    Will Maddock Matthew Razak
    Dyson Joseph Leray
    Topher Cantler Samit Sarkar
         
      Dexter
    Adam Dork
    Daniel Lingen
    Hollie Bennett
    Joe Burling
    Mikey
    Stella Wong

    Josh Tolentino




     

     
      get involved

    register or login
    post a blog
    post a forum
    enter a contest
    contribute a news tip
    suggest a feature
    be a guest editor
    support

    new member's guide
    login assistance
    tech support
    report abuse
    email our editors
    read our dev blog
    nuclear crisis?
    keep in touch

    RSS feed
    Twitter
    Facebook
    Myspace
    Flickr
    Game nights
    Meetup+play online
    seriously

    about Destructoid
    advertising
    terms of use
    privacy policy
    jobs at MM
    buy our crap
    our network

    Tomopop
    Japanator
    Despingation?




    Destructoid is an independently-run publication forged by our love of video games and the gaming community's need of accountable enthusiast press
    living the dream since March 16, 2006