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Eh. I don't think having a place for people to indulge in fantasies (no matter how sick) will make them act in realife. Just look at GTA. Just because you can kill people in a game doesn't mean it breeds people to kill in realife. Same concept here. I don't approve of the behavior, but um...whatever floats your boat?
I hate to say it.... I really do, but I HAVE to play Devil's Advocate here.....
If Manhunt 2 lets you murder people and everyone says "But it's only a game, I really wouldn't murder anyone!" then what's the difference with this? It's still an illegal, obscene act that causes harm to others, but in a virtual word.
And if anyone even THINKS I'm condoning this in real life, you're very wrong. Just like I would play Manhunt 2, yet never consider murdering anyone.
If Manhunt 2 lets you murder people and everyone says "But it's only a game, I really wouldn't murder anyone!" then what's the difference with this? It's still an illegal, obscene act that causes harm to others, but in a virtual word.
And if anyone even THINKS I'm condoning this in real life, you're very wrong. Just like I would play Manhunt 2, yet never consider murdering anyone.
This is a tricky subject. While pedophilia is certainly damaging to all involved, I'm torn about this in Second Life. It's certainly something I would never do, but if people are able to get their sick fantasies realized through pixels and polygons instead of kidnapped and abusing children to post online, it might be a lesser of two evils situation.
Kind of like how some cities (Not in the US, though SF is trying) provide safe and clean places for drug addicts to shoot up so that they don't OD and die, and can get some help. They're doing unsavory things, but they're only doing it in a way that harms themselves, and no one else.
Now I feel disgusting for writing something that kind of supports online pedophilia. Gross.
Kind of like how some cities (Not in the US, though SF is trying) provide safe and clean places for drug addicts to shoot up so that they don't OD and die, and can get some help. They're doing unsavory things, but they're only doing it in a way that harms themselves, and no one else.
Now I feel disgusting for writing something that kind of supports online pedophilia. Gross.
Yes but the point of manhunt and GTA is to be a criminal. The question of whether this is bad or not is for another discussion. The point of second life is NOT to be a pedophile, which means people go out of their way just to indulge their sick fantasies with underage virtual girls.
hey, second life isn't so different from 1st life. in some odd way, i have to offer kudos for linden labs for not censoring user generated content. if this is some kind of social commentary/experiment they are running, i'd say its a success. who are they to interfere? peoples is fucked up. definately don't condone this behavior, but respect the lack of interference.
That's all kinds of messed up. You could say that it's better that they're doing it online instead of in the real world but it doesn't make any of this better.
Haven't you guys ever seen the TV shows and movies about FBI profilers who get sucked into a serial killer's warped fantasy and begin acting it out themselves?
Using math, if this happens an average of 2.2 times a week on TV, then Wonderland is churning out pedophiles at the rate of 17 per day.
But seriously, I don't see any problem with stopping people who are already seriously ill from having a place to act out their fantasies. C'mon, who wants to come out and say that an adult fantasizing about sex with 10-yr-olds is healthy? I double-dog-dare you!
Using math, if this happens an average of 2.2 times a week on TV, then Wonderland is churning out pedophiles at the rate of 17 per day.
But seriously, I don't see any problem with stopping people who are already seriously ill from having a place to act out their fantasies. C'mon, who wants to come out and say that an adult fantasizing about sex with 10-yr-olds is healthy? I double-dog-dare you!
So Manhunt 2 has a highly fictional story of someone being hunted for game and Second Life has people fucking children and horses... some cunt needs to straighten out their gaming morals.
I'm pretty sure this place was encountered in SA's second life safari.
"Who wants to act out diddling a 12 year old?" Paedophiles, duh. Unlike those above, I don't really have trouble playing the devils advocate here. Paedos are people too. Just because they feel a sexual attraction to kids doesn't make them automatically evil, only acting on such impulses is. I seriously doubt anyone would make the concious choice to be a nonce. Child rape is, of course, one of the worst things it's possible to do. Virtual child rape, when only consenting adults are involved, where noone is harmed, I don't see the problem with. I mean, think about this, people. Is it not better for those poor fuckers to have some form of release, rather than having them bottle up those feelings for years and years until they explode violently, fucking up many lives in the process?
Shades of grey, people.
"Who wants to act out diddling a 12 year old?" Paedophiles, duh. Unlike those above, I don't really have trouble playing the devils advocate here. Paedos are people too. Just because they feel a sexual attraction to kids doesn't make them automatically evil, only acting on such impulses is. I seriously doubt anyone would make the concious choice to be a nonce. Child rape is, of course, one of the worst things it's possible to do. Virtual child rape, when only consenting adults are involved, where noone is harmed, I don't see the problem with. I mean, think about this, people. Is it not better for those poor fuckers to have some form of release, rather than having them bottle up those feelings for years and years until they explode violently, fucking up many lives in the process?
Shades of grey, people.
@Max - well, it's not UNhealthy at the very least. It does happen a lot more than people would like to believe. Most people just resist the urge and never act out on it in any way, except fantasy. I could ask my Psychology-major sister about it though, she would know better.
Onto the story... they JUST found this? Fuck, they're slow at this then. It's kinda obvious you'll find something like this on SL if there are enough furries running around that you can find areas specifically for babyfurs, among other things. There are far more disturbing things to find on SL, probably including people distributing REAL child porn, instead of this faux-CP. This is my educated opinion from past experience with the "game."
Onto the story... they JUST found this? Fuck, they're slow at this then. It's kinda obvious you'll find something like this on SL if there are enough furries running around that you can find areas specifically for babyfurs, among other things. There are far more disturbing things to find on SL, probably including people distributing REAL child porn, instead of this faux-CP. This is my educated opinion from past experience with the "game."
I think a lot of people are realising that Manhunt is almost as sick as this. The only reason that Manhunt isn't as sick as this is because you're not killing people for no reason. but then I guess these young girls aren't exactly getting raped so maybe Manhunt is sicker.
The thing is, I really want to play Manhunt 2 and I would pay not to have to play Second Life and do stuff with little girls. What does that say about us as people?
What does that say about us a species???
The thing is, I really want to play Manhunt 2 and I would pay not to have to play Second Life and do stuff with little girls. What does that say about us as people?
What does that say about us a species???
@Luca
There's a fairly evenhanded article about pedophiles here. I think my point is that adults who are sexually attracted to children are not well, psychologically, physiologically, or often both. Teenage boys who have violent instincts are responding to sharply increased testosterone levels, which is common, natural, and temporary.
If we can assume people who go on Second Life to have virtual sex with children are not completely well, I would suggest treatment to deal with these impulses rather than relying on the unproven "release valve" theory of therapy.
There's a fairly evenhanded article about pedophiles here. I think my point is that adults who are sexually attracted to children are not well, psychologically, physiologically, or often both. Teenage boys who have violent instincts are responding to sharply increased testosterone levels, which is common, natural, and temporary.
If we can assume people who go on Second Life to have virtual sex with children are not completely well, I would suggest treatment to deal with these impulses rather than relying on the unproven "release valve" theory of therapy.
It's not illegal, nor, unfortunately, should it be. I don't believe fantasy should be illegal, however disgusting it is, and believe me, it's grotesque -- this kind of thing doesn't begin to touch the surface of what goes on -- but like Colette said, if they're not diddling actual girls, that's something.
That said, if I ran Second Life, you can bet I'd shut their sick little shenanigans down in a heartbeat. It's certainly a shame that Second Life's owners don't have the sense of class or the balls to do it, but they are right to say there's no legal obligation to do so. It just sucks they don't have a spine enough to set their own standards.
That said, if I ran Second Life, you can bet I'd shut their sick little shenanigans down in a heartbeat. It's certainly a shame that Second Life's owners don't have the sense of class or the balls to do it, but they are right to say there's no legal obligation to do so. It just sucks they don't have a spine enough to set their own standards.
This might get some people mad, but I'm going to lay it all out so people can have some stuff to think about.
Many people who are bashing this faux-cp sex acts on second life, are probably the same people who have boatloads of shota or loli manga in their C:/.
Setting that aside, I think its horrible that real cp is being distributed in Secondlife, and Linden Labs should try their best to stop this from happening. I know the idea of virtual 12 year olds having sex with virtual adults is sickening, but I'm rather Linden Labs spent their time actually stopping real cp in their "game". The same goes with law enforcement. I do not support virtual cp, nor do i look favorably to loli or shota manga, but real cp is where my real anger goes too.
Now that I got that off my chest. I want bring up and issue thats been running through my mind.
Now most states in the US consider having sex with animals illegal. Yet there is nothing morally, or legally wrong with people dressing up as animals having sex with each other. There is also no problem with porn stars dressing up as little schoogirls getting themselves violated. If anybody seen any jp porn the girls defintely look underage, but they are really not (completely legal). There is an understanding that these girls are all legal in age and therefore the act is between consenting adults.
Now lets bring this real-life CP cosplay into the virtual realm. Although its disgusting, but having virtual sex with a unicorn is not wrong. In a way that person is dressing up virtually as a unicorn. How is that any different from a person dressing up virtually as a 12 year old girl having virtual sex with a 42 year old male avatar. Although disgusting, is this wrong? How is it any different from the multitude of porn movies depicting 18 year old girls as innocent underage virgins dressed like little girls?
I don't have an answer to my own questions, but its bothering me for some time concerning what responsibilities we have in the virtual world and how should we translate our morals and legal laws into the virtual realm. Is it ok to dress up virtually like a 12 year old girl eventhough your a 24 year old male, and have virtual sex with a complete stranger who is also over the age? I really don't have an answer to that.
Many people who are bashing this faux-cp sex acts on second life, are probably the same people who have boatloads of shota or loli manga in their C:/.
Setting that aside, I think its horrible that real cp is being distributed in Secondlife, and Linden Labs should try their best to stop this from happening. I know the idea of virtual 12 year olds having sex with virtual adults is sickening, but I'm rather Linden Labs spent their time actually stopping real cp in their "game". The same goes with law enforcement. I do not support virtual cp, nor do i look favorably to loli or shota manga, but real cp is where my real anger goes too.
Now that I got that off my chest. I want bring up and issue thats been running through my mind.
Now most states in the US consider having sex with animals illegal. Yet there is nothing morally, or legally wrong with people dressing up as animals having sex with each other. There is also no problem with porn stars dressing up as little schoogirls getting themselves violated. If anybody seen any jp porn the girls defintely look underage, but they are really not (completely legal). There is an understanding that these girls are all legal in age and therefore the act is between consenting adults.
Now lets bring this real-life CP cosplay into the virtual realm. Although its disgusting, but having virtual sex with a unicorn is not wrong. In a way that person is dressing up virtually as a unicorn. How is that any different from a person dressing up virtually as a 12 year old girl having virtual sex with a 42 year old male avatar. Although disgusting, is this wrong? How is it any different from the multitude of porn movies depicting 18 year old girls as innocent underage virgins dressed like little girls?
I don't have an answer to my own questions, but its bothering me for some time concerning what responsibilities we have in the virtual world and how should we translate our morals and legal laws into the virtual realm. Is it ok to dress up virtually like a 12 year old girl eventhough your a 24 year old male, and have virtual sex with a complete stranger who is also over the age? I really don't have an answer to that.
Hrm.......
I think I stopped giving any credit to Linden Labs after the "fuck a horse, win a unicorn" thing.
I think I stopped giving any credit to Linden Labs after the "fuck a horse, win a unicorn" thing.
This is just like the episode of Law and Order: SVU. The one about Another YOUniverse (aka Second Life). The basic conclusion: the only real problem with this is the possibility of someone transferring their activities from virtual to real life.
It seems like a valid point to say that the point of Second Life is not to virtually perform illegal acts, while that is the point of games like Manhunt. But really, this doesn't matter. You have to make just as much effort to buy and play Manhunt and you do to buy and play the (virtual) illegal parts of Second Life.
It seems like a valid point to say that the point of Second Life is not to virtually perform illegal acts, while that is the point of games like Manhunt. But really, this doesn't matter. You have to make just as much effort to buy and play Manhunt and you do to buy and play the (virtual) illegal parts of Second Life.
@Jim Sterling
From Linden Lab's press release responding to the allegations:
At present, we have no firm evidence of wrongdoing from our own investigations into Wonderland nor from our Abuse Report channel. There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary. That said, Linden Lab is morally opposed to and has zero tolerance for child pornography, simulated or otherwise, within Second Life.
From Linden Lab's press release responding to the allegations:
At present, we have no firm evidence of wrongdoing from our own investigations into Wonderland nor from our Abuse Report channel. There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary. That said, Linden Lab is morally opposed to and has zero tolerance for child pornography, simulated or otherwise, within Second Life.
While I agree that Second Life is deplorable, as is child porn, I am always surprised to see gamers using the one argument they hate to have used against them. What do I mean?
"Murder simulators."
If you play your Grand Theft Autos, your Counter-Strikes, or your Manhunt 2s, does that mean that you want to beat prostitutes, act as a terrorist, or make ridiculously bloody escapes from mental hospitals? Every gamer will tell you that the answer is no. Why, then, if you play a game that allows witch-touching, or twelve year old avatars giving blowjobs, do so many gamers call you a sick bastard because you clearly want to do those things in real life? It's a double standard, and it makes us no better than Mr. Thompson himself.
"Murder simulators."
If you play your Grand Theft Autos, your Counter-Strikes, or your Manhunt 2s, does that mean that you want to beat prostitutes, act as a terrorist, or make ridiculously bloody escapes from mental hospitals? Every gamer will tell you that the answer is no. Why, then, if you play a game that allows witch-touching, or twelve year old avatars giving blowjobs, do so many gamers call you a sick bastard because you clearly want to do those things in real life? It's a double standard, and it makes us no better than Mr. Thompson himself.
->Rorschach: Thems american laws, and being not american, I give less than a fuck about them. Besides, do you really believe legality is the same as morality? If the only reason you don't commit rape or murder or muggery etc. is that you're afraid of being punished by the law, then I think you've got problems anyway.
->MaxVest: Interesting, it very troubling article. But considering public opinion, asking a paedophile to identify themselves would be asking them to become a pariah. With today's climate of intolerance, I'd imagine most would be too terrified to come forward, even if they wanted help. Hopefully this will change, but in the mean time I firmly believe that fantasising in order to relieve sexual tension is not unhealthy, as long as the person knows where the fantasy ends. If someone told you that you could never have sex with a woman again(assuming you're a heterosexual male) for the rest of your life, don't you think it would be easier to cope if you at least had some porn?
->MaxVest: Interesting, it very troubling article. But considering public opinion, asking a paedophile to identify themselves would be asking them to become a pariah. With today's climate of intolerance, I'd imagine most would be too terrified to come forward, even if they wanted help. Hopefully this will change, but in the mean time I firmly believe that fantasising in order to relieve sexual tension is not unhealthy, as long as the person knows where the fantasy ends. If someone told you that you could never have sex with a woman again(assuming you're a heterosexual male) for the rest of your life, don't you think it would be easier to cope if you at least had some porn?
I can guarantee that any of you who are condoning the simulation of child sex on second life were never abused as kids, have kids, or work with kids.
People do some tremendously fucked up things in this world, but molesting a child ranks up there. For someone to to molest a child, or to fantasise about said act, they are obviously mentally maladjusted.
Ergo, any action that tells paedophiles that the act of having sex with a child isn't that bad (including child sex in Second Life and the dressing up of porn stars to look like young girls) probably isn't that good idea. None of us can know for sure that a paedophile won't be more likely to act out his fantasies after 'indulging' in Second Life. It's clearly not worth the risk.
If we want the community to have any semblance of respect for the gaming community, we need to take a stand on shit like this, instead of adopting a 'live and let live' attitude. Child sexual acts are always going to be a hot point, and if we in anyway present an attitude that we find gaming to be a healthy outlet for unhealhty suppressed urges, we might as well paint an target on our foreheads.
People do some tremendously fucked up things in this world, but molesting a child ranks up there. For someone to to molest a child, or to fantasise about said act, they are obviously mentally maladjusted.
Ergo, any action that tells paedophiles that the act of having sex with a child isn't that bad (including child sex in Second Life and the dressing up of porn stars to look like young girls) probably isn't that good idea. None of us can know for sure that a paedophile won't be more likely to act out his fantasies after 'indulging' in Second Life. It's clearly not worth the risk.
If we want the community to have any semblance of respect for the gaming community, we need to take a stand on shit like this, instead of adopting a 'live and let live' attitude. Child sexual acts are always going to be a hot point, and if we in anyway present an attitude that we find gaming to be a healthy outlet for unhealhty suppressed urges, we might as well paint an target on our foreheads.
Now, I'm no fan of pedophilia (which is a great way to start any sentence, by the way), but I don't think Linden should do anything. No minor is being hurt here, assuming that the people in question really aren't under 18. If Linden allows stuff like Unicorn sex, then it really can't go disallowing other extreme forms of digital fantasy.
Pedophilia is a disease and a sickness and it should, ideally, be "fixed" or taken care of in a person, whatever that involves. HOWEVER, at least they're only indulging digitally and, hopefully, not acting out in reality. Small comfort, but at least it's something.
Pedophilia is a disease and a sickness and it should, ideally, be "fixed" or taken care of in a person, whatever that involves. HOWEVER, at least they're only indulging digitally and, hopefully, not acting out in reality. Small comfort, but at least it's something.
ew.
There's nothing to say that hasn't already been said, but I'll just agree with Jim on this one, no matter how wrong .. taboo the fantasy is.
But still, ew.
There's nothing to say that hasn't already been said, but I'll just agree with Jim on this one, no matter how wrong .. taboo the fantasy is.
But still, ew.
@brad drac:
I would indeed like some porn, and also hope that they didn't tell everybody else to knock it off, because heterosexual intercourse is a handy way to perpetuate the species.
I'm not saying that other sexual orientations are morally wrong, just that the argument of necessity is a good one. One could speculate that male homosexuality is an advantageous but not necessary genetic adaptation. Since each boy born from the same mother bears a higher probability of homosexuality than the last, perhaps these boys are destined to become a tribal "rear guard" (no puns intended) that protects the women (but won't impregnate them) when the main hunters/warriors leave for battle. But I just totally theorized, so who knows? However, a basic cost/benefit analysis weighs heavily against pedophilia. The major drawback to forbidding it entirely is that treatable personalities may not come forth, and instead get worse.
I would indeed like some porn, and also hope that they didn't tell everybody else to knock it off, because heterosexual intercourse is a handy way to perpetuate the species.
I'm not saying that other sexual orientations are morally wrong, just that the argument of necessity is a good one. One could speculate that male homosexuality is an advantageous but not necessary genetic adaptation. Since each boy born from the same mother bears a higher probability of homosexuality than the last, perhaps these boys are destined to become a tribal "rear guard" (no puns intended) that protects the women (but won't impregnate them) when the main hunters/warriors leave for battle. But I just totally theorized, so who knows? However, a basic cost/benefit analysis weighs heavily against pedophilia. The major drawback to forbidding it entirely is that treatable personalities may not come forth, and instead get worse.
"I can guarantee that any of you who are condoning the simulation of child sex on second life were never abused as kids, have kids, or work with kids."
That's very untrue. Pedos come from all walks of life, some of them were abused themselves, yes, and come on -- no parent or child carer has ever condoned or committed such acts? You know that's not the case.
That's very untrue. Pedos come from all walks of life, some of them were abused themselves, yes, and come on -- no parent or child carer has ever condoned or committed such acts? You know that's not the case.
@Dexter345
It seems, from all media and historical evidence, that people do think killing others is acceptable. I'm not defending it, but just looking at a show of hands.
Not to say we're all cavemen, but perhaps it comes from the fact that we have a long tradition of killing animals for food and other people for our own safety. Most men are also familiar with the testosterone rush of adolescence. But most people don't have pedophilic urges, and it accomplishes nothing positive, so it's pretty easy to condemn it unequivocally.
It seems, from all media and historical evidence, that people do think killing others is acceptable. I'm not defending it, but just looking at a show of hands.
Not to say we're all cavemen, but perhaps it comes from the fact that we have a long tradition of killing animals for food and other people for our own safety. Most men are also familiar with the testosterone rush of adolescence. But most people don't have pedophilic urges, and it accomplishes nothing positive, so it's pretty easy to condemn it unequivocally.
wait... virtual crime is real crime???
as disgusting as it is.... they shouldn't take any action against.
so if you say it is then you are saying Jack Thompson is right :(
as disgusting as it is.... they shouldn't take any action against.
so if you say it is then you are saying Jack Thompson is right :(
@Dexter
What's the point that you are trying to make? Are you saying that we can't critisise simualted child sex because we simulate murder in our video games?
Dude, are you serious? There is a world of difference between the two. On the one hand, we rational, mentally healthy individuals playing video games that are clearly fantasy. On the other, you have people who are clearly in need of help, acting out a fantasy in a very immersive virtual world. The first group, by nature of the fact that they are able to distinguish between reality and a video game, will never act out what they have been playing and murder someone.
But the second group, a group that is clearly mentally ill, are clearly more likely to act out the fantasy that they have been playing online. I'm not saying all of them will, but if even only 1% of them act it out, then the gaming industry clearly has a moral obligation to shut this shit down.
What's the point that you are trying to make? Are you saying that we can't critisise simualted child sex because we simulate murder in our video games?
Dude, are you serious? There is a world of difference between the two. On the one hand, we rational, mentally healthy individuals playing video games that are clearly fantasy. On the other, you have people who are clearly in need of help, acting out a fantasy in a very immersive virtual world. The first group, by nature of the fact that they are able to distinguish between reality and a video game, will never act out what they have been playing and murder someone.
But the second group, a group that is clearly mentally ill, are clearly more likely to act out the fantasy that they have been playing online. I'm not saying all of them will, but if even only 1% of them act it out, then the gaming industry clearly has a moral obligation to shut this shit down.
@Jim
I meant the people commenting on here, not the people acting out the child sex acts on Second Life. Point taken however.
I meant the people commenting on here, not the people acting out the child sex acts on Second Life. Point taken however.
[19:56] jimothy_sterling: You know, people say Second Life sucks. It doesn't, it's just fundamentally flawed ... it requires people. and *people* suck
I don't really understand why so many people have trouble separating legality and morality.
I can understand why someone would be opposed to this in Second Life, I can understand why someone would boycott Linden Labs until they get rid of this crap, I can understand why you would socially shun anyone who was involved in this.
What I don't understand is why someone would think there should be a law against this when there is no victim. If it's two adults engaging in fantasy, even in a fantasy of an atrocious act, should they really go to jail for that? I say, no. They should be shunned from the community, their businesses should be boycotted, etc, etc. But the government should have nothing to do with it at all.
This is all coming from a Libertarian nut, though...
I can understand why someone would be opposed to this in Second Life, I can understand why someone would boycott Linden Labs until they get rid of this crap, I can understand why you would socially shun anyone who was involved in this.
What I don't understand is why someone would think there should be a law against this when there is no victim. If it's two adults engaging in fantasy, even in a fantasy of an atrocious act, should they really go to jail for that? I say, no. They should be shunned from the community, their businesses should be boycotted, etc, etc. But the government should have nothing to do with it at all.
This is all coming from a Libertarian nut, though...
Let me put this out there real quick. Any anime fan can atest that anime girls even the legal age ones look underage. Female anime avatars having sex with a pseudo-realistic male avatar will easily make it look like cp.
Could this have been what investigators saw? It seems most people here have no problem with hentai, whose characters (in most cases) unfortunately look very young.
Now I know real cp and realistic child-girl avatars exist in secondlife, but I'm just saying that this could be a possibility, which really makes this issue even more complicated
Could this have been what investigators saw? It seems most people here have no problem with hentai, whose characters (in most cases) unfortunately look very young.
Now I know real cp and realistic child-girl avatars exist in secondlife, but I'm just saying that this could be a possibility, which really makes this issue even more complicated
For people who equate violence with the child porn, consider this:
How many people do you know who play violent games - first person shooters, RPGs, whatever floats their boat. How many people do you know who watch violent movies? How many of them, HONESTLY, are people you think would really want to commit those acts? Not shit like hitting someone back if they punch him first, but I mean, blowing up building, executions, that kind of thing? Probably very few. Games and movies with violence are a valid entertainment form. Most people can watch those and have no trouble distinguishing that it's not okay to do those things.
Now - how many friends do you have who watch child porn? How many friends do you have who get off on the thought of doing illicit things with a 12 or 13 year-old (or hell, as young as the 10 year-olds mentioned in the story)? Probably not many, at least that YOU know about. What would you do if you discovered your friend HAD child porn? Would you shrug and say, "Eh, no different than violent video games, doesn't mean he'd actually do something like that." No, you wouldn't. Or, at least I hope you wouldn't.
Thing is, I think the human psyche HAS a capacity for violence in games and movies, at LEAST where there's a point - is there a story behind it? Does it make sense to incorporate it INTO the story? Is there something else amongst the violence that validates the story? I've played violent games like Half-Life, Quake, Mortal Kombat - no matter HOW improbable the scenarios were, at least there was a point to the game. There was a story: Mortal Kombat is based around a tournament of fighters, Half-Life deals with an experiment gone wrong, etc.
What POSSIBLE story is there to . . . having children perform sex acts? Where is there any artistic merit whatsoever? I'm not saying Manhunt is the pinnacle of human expression, but you're telling me you don't think that a grown adult wishing to see normally non-sexualized beings put in sexual scenarios implies a direct problem with that person? Non "desensitization", but a general admittance that it's okay to be turned on by that? Because I'll tell you right now, they're doing it for no other reason. There's no story, there's no "fun" - they're doing it to get off. They're doing it to circumvent necessary bans on actual child pornography (because THAT I can certainly support bans on - a child has to be abused in the process of making child pornography, it's basically evidence of a real crime).
There's still a lot of back-and-forth on the "virtual" child porn question. Tell you this much, though - I wouldn't spend one thin DIME on a subscription to a game that allowed that kind of shit. I'd like to think most decent people would agree and withdraw their funds until some basic, lowest common denominator of decency is established.
How many people do you know who play violent games - first person shooters, RPGs, whatever floats their boat. How many people do you know who watch violent movies? How many of them, HONESTLY, are people you think would really want to commit those acts? Not shit like hitting someone back if they punch him first, but I mean, blowing up building, executions, that kind of thing? Probably very few. Games and movies with violence are a valid entertainment form. Most people can watch those and have no trouble distinguishing that it's not okay to do those things.
Now - how many friends do you have who watch child porn? How many friends do you have who get off on the thought of doing illicit things with a 12 or 13 year-old (or hell, as young as the 10 year-olds mentioned in the story)? Probably not many, at least that YOU know about. What would you do if you discovered your friend HAD child porn? Would you shrug and say, "Eh, no different than violent video games, doesn't mean he'd actually do something like that." No, you wouldn't. Or, at least I hope you wouldn't.
Thing is, I think the human psyche HAS a capacity for violence in games and movies, at LEAST where there's a point - is there a story behind it? Does it make sense to incorporate it INTO the story? Is there something else amongst the violence that validates the story? I've played violent games like Half-Life, Quake, Mortal Kombat - no matter HOW improbable the scenarios were, at least there was a point to the game. There was a story: Mortal Kombat is based around a tournament of fighters, Half-Life deals with an experiment gone wrong, etc.
What POSSIBLE story is there to . . . having children perform sex acts? Where is there any artistic merit whatsoever? I'm not saying Manhunt is the pinnacle of human expression, but you're telling me you don't think that a grown adult wishing to see normally non-sexualized beings put in sexual scenarios implies a direct problem with that person? Non "desensitization", but a general admittance that it's okay to be turned on by that? Because I'll tell you right now, they're doing it for no other reason. There's no story, there's no "fun" - they're doing it to get off. They're doing it to circumvent necessary bans on actual child pornography (because THAT I can certainly support bans on - a child has to be abused in the process of making child pornography, it's basically evidence of a real crime).
There's still a lot of back-and-forth on the "virtual" child porn question. Tell you this much, though - I wouldn't spend one thin DIME on a subscription to a game that allowed that kind of shit. I'd like to think most decent people would agree and withdraw their funds until some basic, lowest common denominator of decency is established.
@byrc
Now I know real cp and realistic child-girl avatars exist in secondlife, but I'm just saying that this could be a possibility, which really makes this issue even more complicated
Not for me, because that kind of ambiguity is exactly why I hate almost all anime out there. Besides the obnoxious dialogue and usually boring stories, their voice actresses sound no older than 10, and the noises they make when in "distress" actually sound more like someone's doing something inappropriate. I hate, hate, hate the way they render female characters in anime and, as a result, I may have seen all of THREE anime shows/series that I don't morally detest.
Now I know real cp and realistic child-girl avatars exist in secondlife, but I'm just saying that this could be a possibility, which really makes this issue even more complicated
Not for me, because that kind of ambiguity is exactly why I hate almost all anime out there. Besides the obnoxious dialogue and usually boring stories, their voice actresses sound no older than 10, and the noises they make when in "distress" actually sound more like someone's doing something inappropriate. I hate, hate, hate the way they render female characters in anime and, as a result, I may have seen all of THREE anime shows/series that I don't morally detest.
The problem with your argument Bioautographical, is that your equating virtual cp to real cp. If you want to compare it to the issue of video game violence, having your friend have real cp is akin to having your friend owning a couple of guns and a list of people he wants to shoot. You would be just as worried in such a situation.
However I do agree that no money should be given to those companies who support virtual cp. I don't believe virtual cp is illegal, but as consumers we have the right to display our misgivings concerning the type of product being sold to the market such as through boycotts.
However I do agree that no money should be given to those companies who support virtual cp. I don't believe virtual cp is illegal, but as consumers we have the right to display our misgivings concerning the type of product being sold to the market such as through boycotts.
@bioautographical
There are tons of anime whose art style do no confuse 20 year olds as 12 year olds.
Your painting anime with a very large brush. Anime has many different art styles and not all them are in the style of doey-eyed pink haired girls.
There are tons of anime whose art style do no confuse 20 year olds as 12 year olds.
Your painting anime with a very large brush. Anime has many different art styles and not all them are in the style of doey-eyed pink haired girls.
No, having guns and a list of people to shoot is akin to having a REAL kid that you're planning to do stuff with. There's the difference between the "acting" and the "watching". Of course I'd call the cops on anyone wanting to ACT on that.
But when it comes to merely "watching", there is a marked difference. If someone had some kind of snuff tape, I'd report them just as fast as someone having a kiddie porn tape. But scaling it back more, when it comes to virtual/faked violence? No problem. All but a few extremists agree that violence can be part of a bigger story and there's no problem with it, there's no suggested underlying moral conflict.
But someone who wants to watch virtual kids performing sex acts? There's no middle ground. Absolutely none. And I don't even mean movies or games where the acts are obscured and used to convey abuse - like the movie/book "Lolita". That's obviously about the destructive end of child abuse. I'm talking, games that put child abuse out there as some fun service to partake of. There are plenty of games where people get together in a virtual medium to hunt and shoot, but people are reasonable enough to know it isn't real, and don't harbor any will to actually harm people.
You cannot say the same for a person wanting to perform virtual sex acts to a child, or watching it be done without the intention of reporting/stopping it. Anyone who wants to put himself in the virtual position of performing sex acts with a child is absolutely effin' disturbed. I'd challenge anyone to take that person, search their homes, search their records - I guarantee you, you'll find real CP, you'll find a history of past molestation, you'll find something.
People who "only virtually" want to rape kids don't stay that way for long. For those types of people, such a thing is only a pit stop on a pretty long, ugly road.
But when it comes to merely "watching", there is a marked difference. If someone had some kind of snuff tape, I'd report them just as fast as someone having a kiddie porn tape. But scaling it back more, when it comes to virtual/faked violence? No problem. All but a few extremists agree that violence can be part of a bigger story and there's no problem with it, there's no suggested underlying moral conflict.
But someone who wants to watch virtual kids performing sex acts? There's no middle ground. Absolutely none. And I don't even mean movies or games where the acts are obscured and used to convey abuse - like the movie/book "Lolita". That's obviously about the destructive end of child abuse. I'm talking, games that put child abuse out there as some fun service to partake of. There are plenty of games where people get together in a virtual medium to hunt and shoot, but people are reasonable enough to know it isn't real, and don't harbor any will to actually harm people.
You cannot say the same for a person wanting to perform virtual sex acts to a child, or watching it be done without the intention of reporting/stopping it. Anyone who wants to put himself in the virtual position of performing sex acts with a child is absolutely effin' disturbed. I'd challenge anyone to take that person, search their homes, search their records - I guarantee you, you'll find real CP, you'll find a history of past molestation, you'll find something.
People who "only virtually" want to rape kids don't stay that way for long. For those types of people, such a thing is only a pit stop on a pretty long, ugly road.
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