surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
Maybe Notch doesn't know American trademark laws. Isn't he Swedish or something?
I don't really know about our trademark laws either, other then you can't straight up rip off someones established branding. Can anyone tell me if Notch host the site to buy Scrolls on a Swedish server if it's still subject to the same laws? It's that how TPB is still around, because their servers are in Sea Land?
I don't really know about our trademark laws either, other then you can't straight up rip off someones established branding. Can anyone tell me if Notch host the site to buy Scrolls on a Swedish server if it's still subject to the same laws? It's that how TPB is still around, because their servers are in Sea Land?
Wow, it's pretty embarassing that they don't understand what "interim injunction" means. He and one of the other people at Mojang seem to think that the court agrees with them and that they "won."
Given this lack of basic understanding, I'm actually more worried than before that this won't go their way.
Given this lack of basic understanding, I'm actually more worried than before that this won't go their way.
I still think the whole process of having to protect your copyright right down to one word is pretty retarded. I wonder if Bethesda's lawyers will start trawling through fantasy books that has the word "scrolls" in their title and start suing them? Is it too late to copyright the word "the" yet, so I can start reaping some sweet rewards from "The Beatles"?
Seems fair action by Bethesda to me. Mojang wanted sole property of "Scrolls" across a broad range of media such as tv shows and merchandise.
Nobody on either side of this legal spat is not at fault but people see Notch as a likeable indie developer who should get his way no matter what happens just cause he's a nice guy.
Nobody on either side of this legal spat is not at fault but people see Notch as a likeable indie developer who should get his way no matter what happens just cause he's a nice guy.
@Noir Trilby - As silly as it sounds, books are a completely different beast from games. So no, a game-to-book court case won't happen. Such are the complexities of trademark law.
@Bobthecatlol - That's a good point that I haven't seen discussed in any articles about this yet. What happens if Mojang was allowed to keep the game title of "Scrolls"? Then they could turn around and sue anyone that uses it, and have more ground to stand on than Bethesda seems to.
Maybe Notch wouldn't do this because he's such a nice guy, but then he'd lose all claim to "Scrolls" being the name of his game, and people could wholesale rip-off his title to no end.
Maybe Notch wouldn't do this because he's such a nice guy, but then he'd lose all claim to "Scrolls" being the name of his game, and people could wholesale rip-off his title to no end.
@Jim Sterling - You're quite correct. The interim injunction just means that the court is going to allow Notch to keep using the name while it figures out how it is going to rule, although it is a positive sign that Notch's argument has merit.
@Aaron Applegate - I'm not entirely positive how that works, but there is an international IP agreement whose name escapes me right now that Sweden is a party to. Long story short, even if Bethesda DOESN'T think that Scrolls is an actual infringement, the nature of TM law is that if you don't vigorously defend your trademark, you can lose the protection. So, even by losing THIS argument, if there's actual infringement later and the infringer says, "well, Bethesda hasn't defended their mark!" Bethesda can respond with, "Oh yeah huh! See! Scrolls."
@Aaron Applegate - I'm not entirely positive how that works, but there is an international IP agreement whose name escapes me right now that Sweden is a party to. Long story short, even if Bethesda DOESN'T think that Scrolls is an actual infringement, the nature of TM law is that if you don't vigorously defend your trademark, you can lose the protection. So, even by losing THIS argument, if there's actual infringement later and the infringer says, "well, Bethesda hasn't defended their mark!" Bethesda can respond with, "Oh yeah huh! See! Scrolls."
@DasPooch
Ah, I didn't know that! I would've thought all entertainment would have been covered under one umbrella. Thanks for clearing that up, man.
Ah, I didn't know that! I would've thought all entertainment would have been covered under one umbrella. Thanks for clearing that up, man.
Notch isn't the nice guy people seem to think he is; I mean, he's gone for the trademark on the word Scrolls for nearly ANY application.
@Noir
I think copyright laws and trademark infringement are different. This post got me wording so I goggled it. copyright laws, from my very limited understanding, cover things like ripping code from a disk and selling copies of it without permission from the IP holds, or using character and places form a game and making slight changes like coloring things differently, or changing the not of a chord from a d to a g. While trademarks laws protect the branding of a company or product.
Which I don't think Mojang did. It's always seemed to me just based on who the title is showcased on the box, that The Elder Scrolls part was less important and not what Bethesda expected most people to identify those games by. And scrolls IS such a generic word that I don't think you can trademark it.
I think copyright laws and trademark infringement are different. This post got me wording so I goggled it. copyright laws, from my very limited understanding, cover things like ripping code from a disk and selling copies of it without permission from the IP holds, or using character and places form a game and making slight changes like coloring things differently, or changing the not of a chord from a d to a g. While trademarks laws protect the branding of a company or product.
Which I don't think Mojang did. It's always seemed to me just based on who the title is showcased on the box, that The Elder Scrolls part was less important and not what Bethesda expected most people to identify those games by. And scrolls IS such a generic word that I don't think you can trademark it.
His lawyer should really explain to him American trademark law and what a TEMPORARY injunction is so he doesn't make any stupid public statements that could hurt his case.
Frankly, I'm starting to think Notch be kind of a dumb twat with his macho posturing in this and that maybe he should strongly consider renaming the game since this is looking like it might be a long protracted case that could hinder the development and release of this "Scrolls" game of his.
Frankly, I'm starting to think Notch be kind of a dumb twat with his macho posturing in this and that maybe he should strongly consider renaming the game since this is looking like it might be a long protracted case that could hinder the development and release of this "Scrolls" game of his.
@ Justin Gifford
Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Are you the guy who did the blog post about this case a little while ago? That post and this conversation has made me curious can you clear something but for me? Are Trademarks and having something Copyrighted different?
Oh, thanks for clearing that up. Are you the guy who did the blog post about this case a little while ago? That post and this conversation has made me curious can you clear something but for me? Are Trademarks and having something Copyrighted different?
@Copybass
Everyone seems to be super fast to jump to Bethesdas aid siting that it probably isn't Bethesda at large but Bethesdas legal department that is raising all this stink.
Who says it isn't the same with Mojang. Maybe the lawyer they hired to do the trademarking just aggressively checked all the application boxes?
See how that card plays both ways.....
Seeing as it sounds somewhat like this is going to be some sort of Online TCG ..... who knows what markets they might enter as a result. They might decide that they are going to release official Scrolls lunchboxes and the last thing they need is someone saying "well we have the trademark on lunch based scroll merchandise"
If anything Mojang has handled this from a legal standpoint like any company would have. The fact that their CEO is actually a likeable guy who programs games instead of some soulless jerk in a suit who doesn't even play them, really has little to do with it.
Everyone seems to be super fast to jump to Bethesdas aid siting that it probably isn't Bethesda at large but Bethesdas legal department that is raising all this stink.
Who says it isn't the same with Mojang. Maybe the lawyer they hired to do the trademarking just aggressively checked all the application boxes?
See how that card plays both ways.....
Seeing as it sounds somewhat like this is going to be some sort of Online TCG ..... who knows what markets they might enter as a result. They might decide that they are going to release official Scrolls lunchboxes and the last thing they need is someone saying "well we have the trademark on lunch based scroll merchandise"
If anything Mojang has handled this from a legal standpoint like any company would have. The fact that their CEO is actually a likeable guy who programs games instead of some soulless jerk in a suit who doesn't even play them, really has little to do with it.
Not that stupid lawsuits aren't stupid but it's odd how this is being spun as a giant corporation crushing the souls of the little guys when really it was the little guys that started it. *shrug*
@Aaron Applegate - No, I write for another site, but I know the article you're talking about. Anyway, yes, TM and C are totally different. A copyright is for (and forgive me for any errors, I'm going off the top of my head and it's been a long time since IP Law) original creative works like music, film or writing. You can copyright your work just by sticking a notice on your work (Copyright 2011 Justin Gifford) but you can also register it with the US Copyright Office in order to allow for damages for violations, etc. The USCO has a great FAQ on copyrights (and the difference between TM, C and patent at http://copyright.gov/help/faq/) Trademarks are for actual marks of trade, like "Burger King" with the hamburger & crown. It's a much more involved and deliberate process and grants some pretty stiff protection, but in order for it to stick, you have to defend the crap out of it. Google "defunct trademarks" or something like that; you'll be surprised at some of the things that used to be TM'ed and aren't anymore (e.g.: Escalator).
Am I the only one who finds this Notch guy SERIOUSLY annoying. It's like everything he says rubs me the wrong way.
@CrazyCowboyDon
How did the little guy "start it"? He named his game something that no one else has used. How could he know that anyone would consider it infringement when it's only part of a name at best? Then he offered to change the game's name to avoid all of this mess, but Bethesda/Zenimax refused to drop it and went on with the lawsuit anyway. So, in a sense, it is the big guy picking on the little guy.
How did the little guy "start it"? He named his game something that no one else has used. How could he know that anyone would consider it infringement when it's only part of a name at best? Then he offered to change the game's name to avoid all of this mess, but Bethesda/Zenimax refused to drop it and went on with the lawsuit anyway. So, in a sense, it is the big guy picking on the little guy.
@Aaron Applegate, @ Justin Gifford - I could be wrong, but it might be the article I wrote this last week on Destructoid that you're referring to. www.destructoid.com/just-how-evil-is-zenimax--213175.phtml
Justin is right that Trademarks and Copyrights are entirely different things, even if the general rights appear similar. Just to clear up a few nuances you cited Justin...
Copyrights protect works of "expression." You don't actually have to do anything at all to have a copyright. Any creative work you make is yours under copyright law, unless you've been contracted by someone to create the work. If you want to sue someone, you then have to register the copyright, so a lot of large creators register their works right away.
Trademarks are meant to protect identification of products. Yon don't need to do anything for these either to have protection, but you do need to show that it is actively used and "known" by the public. You might want to register it though to show other companies that they shouldn't use something similar which might eventually lead to a lawsuit. If you have a famous mark, then you must actively protect it (Such as in the case of Scrolls).
Justin is right that Trademarks and Copyrights are entirely different things, even if the general rights appear similar. Just to clear up a few nuances you cited Justin...
Copyrights protect works of "expression." You don't actually have to do anything at all to have a copyright. Any creative work you make is yours under copyright law, unless you've been contracted by someone to create the work. If you want to sue someone, you then have to register the copyright, so a lot of large creators register their works right away.
Trademarks are meant to protect identification of products. Yon don't need to do anything for these either to have protection, but you do need to show that it is actively used and "known" by the public. You might want to register it though to show other companies that they shouldn't use something similar which might eventually lead to a lawsuit. If you have a famous mark, then you must actively protect it (Such as in the case of Scrolls).
@TheNephilym
Notch never offered to drop the name. He offered to change it, but still wanted to use Scrolls, ergo the issue remained. He attempted to file a Trademark on the game's title which brought this to Zenimax's attention. Zenimax then has to sue in order to protect their trademark. Notch didn't have to know he was infringing to infringe, and in this case, he was certainly notified by Bethesda. If he still thinks he has a right to the name, then more power to him. That's what this case will decide.
Notch never offered to drop the name. He offered to change it, but still wanted to use Scrolls, ergo the issue remained. He attempted to file a Trademark on the game's title which brought this to Zenimax's attention. Zenimax then has to sue in order to protect their trademark. Notch didn't have to know he was infringing to infringe, and in this case, he was certainly notified by Bethesda. If he still thinks he has a right to the name, then more power to him. That's what this case will decide.
@Brock Janikowski - Thanks for the clarification; like I said, it's been a long time since IP Law (and it was a Saturday morning class to boot). I only mentioned the difficulty of registering a TM because I had to do one for the company I work for. At any rate, your earlier article was solid; it can be frustrating explaining that Bethesda/Zenimax isn't a de facto "bad guy" for protecting its trademark as it's required to do and your article clearly spelled that out.
I tried explaining what a interim injunction was to the fanboys on the Minecraft forums.
Now I've facepalmed so hard my hand went up my nostril to the wrist. How do I get it out?
Now I've facepalmed so hard my hand went up my nostril to the wrist. How do I get it out?
Fun fact:
Mojang never considered any alternatives to Scrolls when the C&D came in. http://www.twitter.com/notch/status/126200754804494336
Mojang never considered any alternatives to Scrolls when the C&D came in. http://www.twitter.com/notch/status/126200754804494336
Give him just enough time to make some money off Scrolls, with which to be sued upon. Poor sweet Notch...
@TheNephilym
The little guy(mojang) started it by trying to copyright the word Scrolls so that nobody could use it in any media/entertainment way without their permission.
Obviously Bethesda's Elder Scrolls Series would have an issue.
Basically notch tried to Copyright a word that bethesda has been using, and they decided, "yeah no were not going to let that happen, were going to make sure that copyright request gets killed"
Basically everyone hating on bethesda hasn't paid attention to what actually happened, but instead just read notch's blog, ala fox news facts.
The little guy(mojang) started it by trying to copyright the word Scrolls so that nobody could use it in any media/entertainment way without their permission.
Obviously Bethesda's Elder Scrolls Series would have an issue.
Basically notch tried to Copyright a word that bethesda has been using, and they decided, "yeah no were not going to let that happen, were going to make sure that copyright request gets killed"
Basically everyone hating on bethesda hasn't paid attention to what actually happened, but instead just read notch's blog, ala fox news facts.
So this isn't just a carefully crafted plan for free publicity in addition to being seemingly portrayed as the underdog to the big ol' bad Zenimax? Choosing a name he knew would force a reaction from said company under the simple guise of copyright maintenance?
Granted while I consider Minecraft more akin to ghanarea of the gaming world, I've yet to play an Elder Scrolls game that can capture my intrest past a few hours.
Granted while I consider Minecraft more akin to ghanarea of the gaming world, I've yet to play an Elder Scrolls game that can capture my intrest past a few hours.
So we have the first test to see if Zenimax is evil or not: whether or not they appeal this injunction. It's the first thing they're not forced into.
The big thing that people aren't talking about is that -Mojang will NOT explode if they lose this case-. I'm no lawyer but I can't think of much Mojang would even be liable for besides court costs, since nothing much has happened with Scrolls yet.
@Silverx2: Take a deep breath and repeat after me: Trademark is not Copyright. Copyright is not Trademark. They are two different things.
Tschai: I very much doubt that Mojang picked "Scrolls" in order to get into a spat with Zenimax. There is a real possibility that they will lose and have to rebrand, which won't be pleasant.
Although, I guess rebranding wouldn't be too bad for Mojang. It's a new IP and it's not like they bought expensive ad space and printed out letterheads and such, as far as I know. I guess they would have to buy a new domain name (big whoop).
The big thing that people aren't talking about is that -Mojang will NOT explode if they lose this case-. I'm no lawyer but I can't think of much Mojang would even be liable for besides court costs, since nothing much has happened with Scrolls yet.
@Silverx2: Take a deep breath and repeat after me: Trademark is not Copyright. Copyright is not Trademark. They are two different things.
Tschai: I very much doubt that Mojang picked "Scrolls" in order to get into a spat with Zenimax. There is a real possibility that they will lose and have to rebrand, which won't be pleasant.
Although, I guess rebranding wouldn't be too bad for Mojang. It's a new IP and it's not like they bought expensive ad space and printed out letterheads and such, as far as I know. I guess they would have to buy a new domain name (big whoop).
I hope that this means Zenimax will drop it. They've proved they'll go after anyone trying to infringe on their copyright, no need to keep pressing the matter since no one actually ever believed Mojang was trying to glom(sp?) onto the elder scrolls popularity.
@pneuma08
He tried to own a word, a word another company has used. that company said, no thanks were not going to let you do that. no fancy lingo.
He tried to own a word, a word another company has used. that company said, no thanks were not going to let you do that. no fancy lingo.
I'm leaning on Bethesdas side simply because they are the incumbent. If Mojang had Scrolls first and Beth is now releasing "Elder Scrolls" I'd be on Mojang's side. Notch should just do himself a favor and drop Scrolls now. Doing so would essentially make the entire case pointless and no more legal fees will need to be spent.
@Dyn - I'm pretty sure that's the point of the exercise. He may not have planned this like some devious super villain, but as soon as the C&D came in, he probably figured "FUCK YES! LET'S TAKE IT ONLINE AND PLAY UNDERDOG, WOOO!!!"
@ArrestedDeveloper - First off it's Trademark, not Copyright. Second, they go after someone who they think will damage their existing TM because they MUST. Seriously, how many times does this need to be explained?
As for Notch, he's trying to TM a generic word. Putting in the effort to get a TM means that one is willing to both benefit from it and take action to enforce it. If he's trying to OWN the use of a generic word, are you really so naive to think that he won't do the same as Zenimax is right now? He'll have even MORE reason to do so, since it's far more generic to begin with.
It's fucking sad how upside-down people are on this.
As for Notch, he's trying to TM a generic word. Putting in the effort to get a TM means that one is willing to both benefit from it and take action to enforce it. If he's trying to OWN the use of a generic word, are you really so naive to think that he won't do the same as Zenimax is right now? He'll have even MORE reason to do so, since it's far more generic to begin with.
It's fucking sad how upside-down people are on this.
The people shouting HE'S TRYING TO OWN THE WORD SCROLLS, dont get trademark law. I havent looked, but im guessing notch, like most businesses, have just tried to trademark this specific use of the word scrolls, i.e. videogame product, with retail element and associated merchandise.
Trademark law would suggest that unless the trademark refers to the actual product (i.e. coca cola, being previous a coca based cola wine) most trademarking is within the individual sphere of the parent company, which is why you are likely to see companies from different spheres i.e. this plumbers called mcdonalds http://www.mcdonaldphac.com/
The trade mark that scrolls applies to will only be related to game making products, and therefore is not notch trying to own the word scrolls, but trying to own the one word name scrolls for a gaming product. Its entirely for this reason that bethesda is suing, because they already own a trademark with scrolls in it, and without fighting this, their own trademarks may be up for grabs.
Trademark law would suggest that unless the trademark refers to the actual product (i.e. coca cola, being previous a coca based cola wine) most trademarking is within the individual sphere of the parent company, which is why you are likely to see companies from different spheres i.e. this plumbers called mcdonalds http://www.mcdonaldphac.com/
The trade mark that scrolls applies to will only be related to game making products, and therefore is not notch trying to own the word scrolls, but trying to own the one word name scrolls for a gaming product. Its entirely for this reason that bethesda is suing, because they already own a trademark with scrolls in it, and without fighting this, their own trademarks may be up for grabs.
Copyright and trademark are two different things, guys. Mojang attempted to TRADEMARK Scrolls for a broad spectrum of media as a title in relation to their game, and all of these mediums would have been used for merchandising. Standard practice. This would not allow them to sue anyone else that used the word as a part of their own title. None of what they did is out of the ordinary, and attacking The man's character over it is asinine.
follow
