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Well, I guess it depends on what you consider JRPGs. Yeah there's Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, but there's also Pokemon and the Mario RPGs. I guess I can understand where he's coming from though.
I liked JRPGs much more before the Japanese got the technology to put voices and 40 hours worth of cutscenes into them.
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter tried something new and it ate shit for it, although granted some of the changes were a bit drastic. I feel like Capcom could really innovate JRPG's with a Breath of Fire VI that was big in scope, kept some traditional elements from the earlier games but at the same time did something new in the JRPG genre (perhaps more open-world, multiple paths, etc.).
Or maybe I'm just a huge Breath of Fire fanboy and I'm just telling you about my biggest videogame wet dream. Nevertheless I'm going to be a sad panda if Capcom doesn't announce a new Breath of Fire at this year's E3. It's been 8 years, dammit!
Or maybe I'm just a huge Breath of Fire fanboy and I'm just telling you about my biggest videogame wet dream. Nevertheless I'm going to be a sad panda if Capcom doesn't announce a new Breath of Fire at this year's E3. It's been 8 years, dammit!
Dont forget the Tales series. Those have had constant success, and they are only decressing in popularity because scamcom bandai is finding ways to leech of it (read, DLC).
I blame FFVII. It brought a massive influx of gamers to the genre who had never played a JRPG before, and a lot of them are leaving again with the popularity of WRPGs and the realization that Square Enix isn't going to stop experimenting with the franchise just because they don't like it.
JRPGs, at least, were better when they weren't glitzed up to be huge melodramatic movies. Resources were put in to make a story more interesting and the sprite work was charming (although the glut of enemies lulled the whole industry into the JRPG cliche of "The Recolor").
Mind you, while typing this, I'm thinking of Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger, so there's a slight skew here.
Mind you, while typing this, I'm thinking of Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger, so there's a slight skew here.
MIkami has made a lot of different games, but I don't remember any of them being RPGs. I like the guy, but he can also be full of shit at times, too.
I remember him fuming about the success of Kingdom Hearts.
I never take the whole "in decline" mentality seriously, though. its kind of like the indie rock mentality. Stop being too cool for room and go play what you like.
I remember him fuming about the success of Kingdom Hearts.
I never take the whole "in decline" mentality seriously, though. its kind of like the indie rock mentality. Stop being too cool for room and go play what you like.
... I get where he's coming from. Even if I am a HUGE ASS JRPG fan that loves the tales, Suikoden, Shin megami tensei, and played whole lotta other jrpg games. (Also love Dragon Quest)
Look were gamers and they're going to be ALOT OF us that plays jrpgs and love it... But America on the whole... Jrpgs were never really THAT popular.
It wasn't something that... we like ask to each other, do you play CS? or Modern Warfare?
Final Fantasy is still pretty big but other then that... do we really hear about it unless were fans and look for it?
... Btw... America likes too much brainless games and can't sometimes appreciate the artistic value of games. (Like the storyline)
Look were gamers and they're going to be ALOT OF us that plays jrpgs and love it... But America on the whole... Jrpgs were never really THAT popular.
It wasn't something that... we like ask to each other, do you play CS? or Modern Warfare?
Final Fantasy is still pretty big but other then that... do we really hear about it unless were fans and look for it?
... Btw... America likes too much brainless games and can't sometimes appreciate the artistic value of games. (Like the storyline)
I think he's basically right. Take away Final Fantasy games, and how many JRPGs can the average western gamer name? The guy who bought his Xbox for Gears of War and Modern Warfare isn't going to be thinking about the continuation of the Suikoden series. These people buy an RPG once every few years, a Final Fantasy title usually, in the hopes that it will be a new version of FFVII. Other than that, it's a complete niche genre.
I love RPG's of all kinds and the man has the right to his own opinion, but couldn't the same be said for Survival Horror if they took out Resident Evil and Silent Hill, or Fighters if they got rid of Soul Calibur and Street Fighter. Just saying.
I disagree. Using this man's logic, the FPS genre isn't popular because the sales of Halo and MW can't be indicative of the entire genre.
JRPGs are definitely very popular, just FF and DQ happen to sell the best.
JRPGs are definitely very popular, just FF and DQ happen to sell the best.
Just look at how much ass every other JRPG has to bust just to get a passing mention. Can you name another person you know in real life who's played Riviera: The Promised Land?
Xenogears, yo.
Even made it to the Greatest Hits release for PS1. There are -plenty- of JRPG's that sold a fairly decent amount not to long ago, but I'm pretty sure the DECLINE in the JRPG was caused by a general lack of development for the HD systems.
Not to mention that many JRPG's were released exclusively (and timed exclusively) for the 360 which carried a rather negative stigma in Japan. Also, when those games didn't translate in to sales you would see huge gaps in release windows from localizations east to west. Then you have the comparisons of what -kind- of console the 360 had become. If the general buyer for said console isn't the kind of person interested in a JRPG then you're already dealing with a demographic that is difficult to develop for.
Not to mention that the other two consoles didn't exactly create a green pasture for the JRPG developers to hop on. The Wii, despite heavy sales, was inundated with shovel-ware month after month and was reduced to "toy" status.It has only begun recently to climb out of casual gaming hell. The PS3, which should have had the advantage after the PS2's lineup, had one of the most abysmal launches EVER. Not to mention it's high price point, low starting user-base, and early development problems that led to many developers opting to ignore it only until a year or so ago.
You can't really claim that JRPG's as a whole are "dead" per-say. Persona 4, which was released not to long ago on the PS2, had pretty admirable sales in the west and a lot of hype seems to be building for Perona 3 Portable for the PSP. I think it really all depends on where it's appearing and the consoles of the HD-generation had many mis-steps along the way that led to a decline on the development of JRPG's overall.
Even made it to the Greatest Hits release for PS1. There are -plenty- of JRPG's that sold a fairly decent amount not to long ago, but I'm pretty sure the DECLINE in the JRPG was caused by a general lack of development for the HD systems.
Not to mention that many JRPG's were released exclusively (and timed exclusively) for the 360 which carried a rather negative stigma in Japan. Also, when those games didn't translate in to sales you would see huge gaps in release windows from localizations east to west. Then you have the comparisons of what -kind- of console the 360 had become. If the general buyer for said console isn't the kind of person interested in a JRPG then you're already dealing with a demographic that is difficult to develop for.
Not to mention that the other two consoles didn't exactly create a green pasture for the JRPG developers to hop on. The Wii, despite heavy sales, was inundated with shovel-ware month after month and was reduced to "toy" status.It has only begun recently to climb out of casual gaming hell. The PS3, which should have had the advantage after the PS2's lineup, had one of the most abysmal launches EVER. Not to mention it's high price point, low starting user-base, and early development problems that led to many developers opting to ignore it only until a year or so ago.
You can't really claim that JRPG's as a whole are "dead" per-say. Persona 4, which was released not to long ago on the PS2, had pretty admirable sales in the west and a lot of hype seems to be building for Perona 3 Portable for the PSP. I think it really all depends on where it's appearing and the consoles of the HD-generation had many mis-steps along the way that led to a decline on the development of JRPG's overall.
@ jechxior,
"or Fighters if they got rid of Soul Calibur and Street Fighter. Just saying."
Then you're left with the best fighting game there is... Tekken.
"or Fighters if they got rid of Soul Calibur and Street Fighter. Just saying."
Then you're left with the best fighting game there is... Tekken.
eh, youve just got to add more the the gameplay dynamic. story won't do it alone, and either will attack, defend, magic, item.
Baten kaitos had great card combo dynamic
paper mario 1000 year door added something with timing
Great Story + Great Gameplay Dynamic = WIN
Baten kaitos had great card combo dynamic
paper mario 1000 year door added something with timing
Great Story + Great Gameplay Dynamic = WIN
Tales of Symphonia - loved it... but i dont want the SAME THING again!!
thats why i dont want another Tales game.
thats why i dont want another Tales game.
Breath of Fire V. NOW! Dragon Quarter never happened.
The series has a great theme and with today's graphics the dragon transformations can be one hell of a sight to behold. Give me a 3DS game in the series and that's it. Less production costs than the big boys, sales are almost guaranteed given Nintendo's history and even if it bombs they can make up for losses releasing a 3D-less, crappier version on App Store.
Which is pretty much what Capcom does with everything mobile.
The series has a great theme and with today's graphics the dragon transformations can be one hell of a sight to behold. Give me a 3DS game in the series and that's it. Less production costs than the big boys, sales are almost guaranteed given Nintendo's history and even if it bombs they can make up for losses releasing a 3D-less, crappier version on App Store.
Which is pretty much what Capcom does with everything mobile.
Breath of Fire V. NOW! Dragon Quarter never happened.
The series has a great theme and with today's graphics the dragon transformations can be one hell of a sight to behold. Give me a 3DS game in the series and that's it. Less production costs than the big boys, sales are almost guaranteed given Nintendo's history and even if it bombs they can make up for losses releasing a 3D-less, crappier version on App Store.
Which is pretty much what Capcom does with everything mobile.
The series has a great theme and with today's graphics the dragon transformations can be one hell of a sight to behold. Give me a 3DS game in the series and that's it. Less production costs than the big boys, sales are almost guaranteed given Nintendo's history and even if it bombs they can make up for losses releasing a 3D-less, crappier version on App Store.
Which is pretty much what Capcom does with everything mobile.
So, no Resident Evil: Zombie Gaiden Survivor, then?
He would have a point if he mentioned that the sales in west are a bit lacking when it comes to JRPGs, probably because so many titles get released in such a short time.Siliconera had a few articles about it with comments from publishers mentioning how much of problem that was for them. That kind of surprised me, but it made sense.
He would have a point if he mentioned that the sales in west are a bit lacking when it comes to JRPGs, probably because so many titles get released in such a short time.Siliconera had a few articles about it with comments from publishers mentioning how much of problem that was for them. That kind of surprised me, but it made sense.
I am a fan of all genres... even play the odd sport game now and then ;) but if i think about it i havn't played that many jrpgs.
Alot of em are rare or never advertised/released over here (in UK anyway)
I did manage to stumble upon some good ones aswell as the typical FF games. Breath of fire, Suikoden, Tales of, Shadow hearts and Legend of dragoon are some of the series' i remember and were all really good but they dont feel the same anymore.
I did buy Blue Dragon and Last Remnant. (The 2 last true JRPG's on the 360 (I'm not counting FFXIII cos i hated it bitterly)) but i did not play them to completion. Maybe its too slow paced for my liking now since im used to fallout/dragon age/mass effect etc.
Alot of em are rare or never advertised/released over here (in UK anyway)
I did manage to stumble upon some good ones aswell as the typical FF games. Breath of fire, Suikoden, Tales of, Shadow hearts and Legend of dragoon are some of the series' i remember and were all really good but they dont feel the same anymore.
I did buy Blue Dragon and Last Remnant. (The 2 last true JRPG's on the 360 (I'm not counting FFXIII cos i hated it bitterly)) but i did not play them to completion. Maybe its too slow paced for my liking now since im used to fallout/dragon age/mass effect etc.
The jrpg hating bandwagon has been growing ever since final fantasy viii. Square better pull something incredible out of the bag for the next game
Well, I guess it depends whether selling more games than any of the games you've ever made is popular or not. Personally, I think a JRPG outselling every game Shinji Mikami's ever made is pretty popular, but I mean, this might be a biased metric.
The absurd levels of JRPG hate are astounding to me, sometimes.
The absurd levels of JRPG hate are astounding to me, sometimes.
@AexEro, re: Tales series: The Tales series has never been really popular outside of a very, very vocal minority. (Although they're good games.)
The guy makes a good point. Outside of Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and Zelda (if you include that) and a few outliers (Xenogears PS1; Xenosaga 1, DQ8, Star Ocean 3 PS2; Blue Dragon 360; Golden Sun 1 GBA; Paper Mario GC and Wii oddly enough sold better outside Japan) no JRPGs have reached "greatest hits" status. No Suikoden, no Tales, no SMT (Persona or otherwise), and even DQ and SO only have one showing. Even Chrono Trigger didn't break the 1 Mil mark outside of Japan (although to be fair consoles didn't really take off in the west until PS1 FF7).
The guy makes a good point. Outside of Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and Zelda (if you include that) and a few outliers (Xenogears PS1; Xenosaga 1, DQ8, Star Ocean 3 PS2; Blue Dragon 360; Golden Sun 1 GBA; Paper Mario GC and Wii oddly enough sold better outside Japan) no JRPGs have reached "greatest hits" status. No Suikoden, no Tales, no SMT (Persona or otherwise), and even DQ and SO only have one showing. Even Chrono Trigger didn't break the 1 Mil mark outside of Japan (although to be fair consoles didn't really take off in the west until PS1 FF7).
Yeah, he makes a good point. Of course, Pokemon is one of the most popular games in all existence and will outsell nearly anything anytime. But the majority still tend to fall flat.
There might be more than a grain of truth to this statement. I mean, outside of Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Shin Megami Tensei, Pokemon, and Monster Hunter(RPGish?), are JRPGs profitable?
They sure as hell require an awful lot of investment, but if the sales were strong, you'd still see companies be willing to take the chance. I'll admit, I don't follow the genre as closely as I once did, but personally, it feels like we're seeing a shrinking number of players in the JRPG market.
And to clarify, I'm not one to embraces the "JRPGs are dead" mind set. Just that we're seeing a contraction in the number of publishers willing to risk the money and perhaps studios who can execute. I know I personally had more than a few gripes with FFXIII, and they used to be the gold standard(hell, look at my avatar).
They sure as hell require an awful lot of investment, but if the sales were strong, you'd still see companies be willing to take the chance. I'll admit, I don't follow the genre as closely as I once did, but personally, it feels like we're seeing a shrinking number of players in the JRPG market.
And to clarify, I'm not one to embraces the "JRPGs are dead" mind set. Just that we're seeing a contraction in the number of publishers willing to risk the money and perhaps studios who can execute. I know I personally had more than a few gripes with FFXIII, and they used to be the gold standard(hell, look at my avatar).
@Ultor: Profitable and popular are two separate, if entwined ideas. For example, Final Fantasy is popular and consistently sells over in the millions; many others, despite being profitable, never even come close to the million mark.
So series like SMT may be profitable, but it has never been very popular.
Which might also explain why Atlus and a lot of JRPG devs are reluctant to make the move to next-gen. If they need a budget of several times as much as before to support all the extra features (like HD), but sell the same number of copies, that may not be profitable to them.
So series like SMT may be profitable, but it has never been very popular.
Which might also explain why Atlus and a lot of JRPG devs are reluctant to make the move to next-gen. If they need a budget of several times as much as before to support all the extra features (like HD), but sell the same number of copies, that may not be profitable to them.
I didn't think this was really a secret that needed consideration. RPGs only seemed popular because we only talk to each other, the hardcore gamers. Go talk to a mainstream gamer and ask what he was playing ten or fifteen years ago. It he was playing anything, it surely wasn't Arc the Lad or Lunar.
Someone finally speaks the truth! Honestly, how many people do you guys know that love JRPG classic series' to death?
I think there are two reasons: it's because JRPGs outnumber their western counterparts, and also because western RPGs grew strong later - Look at really successful WRPGs like KOTOR, Mass Effect and whatnot: they came out years after, say, Chrono Trigger or Secret of Mana.
I can see that. It didn't seem that way to me as I've bought tons of Japanese RPGs. Of course my purchases are not representative of everyone else's.
I suppose I could agree with that from a certain perspective. Just look at what the guys in the latest episode of Bit Transmission had to say about it all. Games like Persona 3 and 4, which are infinitely superior to games like Modern Warfare 2 will never sell that many copies simply due to the niche appeal of JRPGs. Even with an agressive adverisement campaign, sales would probably only increase a marginal amount.
I mean seriously, with the way the average gamer thinks (FPS=only genre that matters), JRPGs and even WRPGs will probably never reach the same heights as their casual-appealing FPS bretheren.
I mean seriously, with the way the average gamer thinks (FPS=only genre that matters), JRPGs and even WRPGs will probably never reach the same heights as their casual-appealing FPS bretheren.
would be interesting if they made a RPG that wasnt a anime/manga... imagine GTA the turn based RPG.... maybe that will get USA excited.
Mikami's explanation sounds reasonable, but they're off IMO.
I think the real issue at hand is that JRPG's lack of originality has become much more clearer now that the west is coming strong with awesome games. That's why there's so much talk about it, cause it became a giant pink elephant in the room.
I think the real issue at hand is that JRPG's lack of originality has become much more clearer now that the west is coming strong with awesome games. That's why there's so much talk about it, cause it became a giant pink elephant in the room.
On one hand he is right. Outside of FF, JRPGs were never all that popular. Sure, I loved Shadow Hearts, Suikoden V, CT,CC, etc. But now, well, I haven't touched a JRPG in some time. I won't touch FFXIII because I knew years before it came out that I was going to despise the game.
The genre has simply stalled. Yeah, I admit that I complained about ATB gameplay and random encounters and I'm glad it is finally going away. But they refuse to refine their storytelling and that is preventing me from caring at all. FFXII will very likely be the last JRPG that I ever buy day one, which I loved very much due to its story and writing because it didn't try to put itself in the JRPG box.
The genre has simply stalled. Yeah, I admit that I complained about ATB gameplay and random encounters and I'm glad it is finally going away. But they refuse to refine their storytelling and that is preventing me from caring at all. FFXII will very likely be the last JRPG that I ever buy day one, which I loved very much due to its story and writing because it didn't try to put itself in the JRPG box.
It might be due to the diehard JRPG fans knowing the language and importing them, therefore only making it appear as if they aren't that popular in outside of Japan.
Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are both a bit overrated in my eyes. Don't get me wrong, they are great series, just overrated. Give me a good Tales game or Atelier title any day of the week.
Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are both a bit overrated in my eyes. Don't get me wrong, they are great series, just overrated. Give me a good Tales game or Atelier title any day of the week.
Ah, and one cannot forget Golden Sun. Golden Sun DS is very much so at the top of my Christmas list this year. Hopefully more information gets shelled out at E3 about it.
One could also add Metal Gear Solid to the count. Hideo Kojima knows how to rock just about everyone's socks.
All in all there are just patches of different gamers, it has always been that way. Sometimes games don't sell due to localization alone being a factor.
One could also add Metal Gear Solid to the count. Hideo Kojima knows how to rock just about everyone's socks.
All in all there are just patches of different gamers, it has always been that way. Sometimes games don't sell due to localization alone being a factor.
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