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"First of all, women are just good for business. If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better."
Is that really true? I'd like to see a source on this.
Is that really true? I'd like to see a source on this.
Part of the reason that women have less representation/positive roles/etc. is because it is a male dominated hobby right? So is it really going to get better as long as the vast majority of gamers are male? (And I'm not talking sims/dance central/bejeweled). There are other male dominated hobbies like sports that have been around longer than video games that haven't undergone social changes, haven't been innovated by female perspectives, and still even have underlying tones of light misogyny, I honestly don't think gaming will ever become a gender equal industry unless females seriously start gaming more (and if they haven't by now, I don't think they will.)
Totally depends on the person, not the gender. I've dealt with top level all female executive teams who couldn't get shit done without catfighting and making everything late.
Then I've dealt with women in management who actually know their shit. The difference was not in the sexual organs on hand.
Then I've dealt with women in management who actually know their shit. The difference was not in the sexual organs on hand.
So reading a book around female bosses makes their businesses improve? Or did I read that in the wrong way?
Ugh, what the woman who seek the spotlight of the sexism issue dont seem to understand is that this attitude ->
"if you read any books around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better"
Is not doing anyone any favors, it just sounds biased and ignorant.
Leadership has nothing to do with individual ability now? Its a sex thing? Really Bradshaw?
"if you read any books around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better"
Is not doing anyone any favors, it just sounds biased and ignorant.
Leadership has nothing to do with individual ability now? Its a sex thing? Really Bradshaw?
Diversity is good... but to date women involved in the industry haven't necessarily made any changes that draw more women into gaming. The market has to be there first. It seems that Nintendo had the best idea - don't make games by women, for women... just make good games with the assumption that men AND women will play them.
"First of all, women are just good for business. If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better."
All I hear is: "I haz faginass and likez dem games so iz good at beesness"
Seriously though after the recent uprising of sexism debates in gaming that really doesnt help as gender doesnt mean squat in business or really any other job/career...
All I hear is: "I haz faginass and likez dem games so iz good at beesness"
Seriously though after the recent uprising of sexism debates in gaming that really doesnt help as gender doesnt mean squat in business or really any other job/career...
@DarthGadget... here's link to some of the data she may be referring to:
http://www.20-first.com/9-0-better-bottom-line.html
... there have been various different studies that point to the hypothesis that corporate gender diversity isn't a bad thing for companies to consider.
... but I also agree that much of the recent feminist slant in the gaming industry is a bit tiresome. I'm a woman and what with everything going on in Afghanistan and various other countries it really seems incredibly trivial to be so uptight about the games industry - where women are free to play games, write about games, create games.
http://www.20-first.com/9-0-better-bottom-line.html
... there have been various different studies that point to the hypothesis that corporate gender diversity isn't a bad thing for companies to consider.
... but I also agree that much of the recent feminist slant in the gaming industry is a bit tiresome. I'm a woman and what with everything going on in Afghanistan and various other countries it really seems incredibly trivial to be so uptight about the games industry - where women are free to play games, write about games, create games.
I don't think sex has much to do with a person's skills at creating good videogames.
Wish they put more effort into making better games instead of pandering to minorities.
Wish they put more effort into making better games instead of pandering to minorities.
And no, it didn't escape to me the how destructoid makes publicity to hacks like that feminist woman who made a kickstarter and got thousands of dollars to make a portfolio of exaggerated complains. But it's understandable, Destructoid gotta make bank too, and no controversy is bad controversy.
"gender doesnt mean squat in business or really any other job/career..."
???
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php
???
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php
Not to dilute the message, but: "First of all, women are just good for business. If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better." is selection bias. Of course they're doing better - otherwise they wouldn't be writing books about them!
@lek
You're reading it wrong. They're not talking sales figures or metacritic scores. They're talking perspectives:
"But I think you have a different perspective when you have a different mix behind the scenes, making the games and everything, and I think it can really open up different kind of innovations, different features, and different ways in which you design games too."
We're seeing a ton of the same games over and over, a new perspective can only be a good thing.
You're reading it wrong. They're not talking sales figures or metacritic scores. They're talking perspectives:
"But I think you have a different perspective when you have a different mix behind the scenes, making the games and everything, and I think it can really open up different kind of innovations, different features, and different ways in which you design games too."
We're seeing a ton of the same games over and over, a new perspective can only be a good thing.
Alright, who's gonna be the first sexist asshole who tries to back up his flawed logic with hilariously misguided points? *grabs popcorn*
Guys look, I know i've flipped holy hell about topics like this, but it was never about a woman speaking her mind, it was about WHAT they were saying and how.
The point I'm trying to make is; mind your reaction and try not to "knee-jerk" the entire subject.
While a bit misguided, this Bradshaw is just trying to speak to is diversity. Criticize, disagree, speak your mind, but dont attack this one. Shes not coming after you, she doesn't (seem to) have a bullshit agenda, let speak and discuss. Please
The point I'm trying to make is; mind your reaction and try not to "knee-jerk" the entire subject.
While a bit misguided, this Bradshaw is just trying to speak to is diversity. Criticize, disagree, speak your mind, but dont attack this one. Shes not coming after you, she doesn't (seem to) have a bullshit agenda, let speak and discuss. Please
I LOVE YOU JIM! Keep bringing stuff like this up. It's hard to teach old dogs to sit, but if we keep it up, younger people new to the hobby will think it's natural for gamers to concern themselves about gender issues.
I really need to get off my ass and write about this stuff too. I know you don't read comments much, but if you do you should know that I view you as a great source of inspiration and a fellow feminist! Keep it up! <3 <3 <3
I really need to get off my ass and write about this stuff too. I know you don't read comments much, but if you do you should know that I view you as a great source of inspiration and a fellow feminist! Keep it up! <3 <3 <3
@Scaryjim
It can't be helped.
@tuoman
Thanks for clarifying.
Well, i agree now, because new ideas are a good thing, even if most of them make shitty games.
It can't be helped.
@tuoman
Thanks for clarifying.
Well, i agree now, because new ideas are a good thing, even if most of them make shitty games.
Yep, men and women are equal, but not identical, there are a few broad differences across genders and getting and even perspective from both means fresh ideas and broader appeal.
The good kind of broader appeal, not the “Dead Space 3 is now a co-op action game” kind.
The good kind of broader appeal, not the “Dead Space 3 is now a co-op action game” kind.
Here's an idea: Get rid of the unlimited health regen feature in future games.
And while they're at it, avoid putting a fuckton of checkpoints and lowering the standard difficulty so even a monkey can beat a 60USD game in a weekend.
And while they're at it, avoid putting a fuckton of checkpoints and lowering the standard difficulty so even a monkey can beat a 60USD game in a weekend.
How many female editors does dtoid employ?
I guess you can talk to women about video games, you just can't have them writing about them.
I guess you can talk to women about video games, you just can't have them writing about them.
I hear women are good for the world too, for all kinds of reasons.
Any way, I like how people are saying women, or diversity, or whatever is good for business. Sure, it is from an idea and thought process angle, but *business* itself a lifeless, made up, thing, exactly like you can say laws are.
No one thing is good or bad for business, its how they're applied and people perceive them that becomes the issue. Effectively nothing is "bad" for business, as does it not matter *who* is doing the business, at all until people become involved and inject their own opinions and belief systems to it. Again, just like law.
So, really, when you put distill it down to its basest form, it just comes out that PEOPLE are good for business, because otherwise business wouldn't exist in any form.
This is also exactly why different cultures clash so much, without the difference of opinion we'd surely be bland as shit as a species, but we also wouldn't be any different from the Japanese, or the people of the Middle East, or African people. culture is no different then business or law (specially since both of those things are directly influenced BY culture, most of the time), if you took out the human experience you'd be left with just another made up, amorphous, thing.
Any way, I like how people are saying women, or diversity, or whatever is good for business. Sure, it is from an idea and thought process angle, but *business* itself a lifeless, made up, thing, exactly like you can say laws are.
No one thing is good or bad for business, its how they're applied and people perceive them that becomes the issue. Effectively nothing is "bad" for business, as does it not matter *who* is doing the business, at all until people become involved and inject their own opinions and belief systems to it. Again, just like law.
So, really, when you put distill it down to its basest form, it just comes out that PEOPLE are good for business, because otherwise business wouldn't exist in any form.
This is also exactly why different cultures clash so much, without the difference of opinion we'd surely be bland as shit as a species, but we also wouldn't be any different from the Japanese, or the people of the Middle East, or African people. culture is no different then business or law (specially since both of those things are directly influenced BY culture, most of the time), if you took out the human experience you'd be left with just another made up, amorphous, thing.
Isn't what she said very Subjective. Women in roles of power doing better does not entirely tell the whole story. For example the Female manager of Target closest to me has horribly over priced goods and often do not take good inventory so when I check the site to see if its in stock, and go to the store, the item is not there most of the time. When I was in highschool we had a female principal and that school was apart of a scandal where children who had detention were made to scrub toilets. I'm not saying all women in seats of power are bad but I'm not saying that it will lead to a more prosperous situation either. Equality isn't about superiority or being seen as the victim 90% of the time. Equality is being Equal.
@Stabb... there are lots of women on Dtoid that write about games (on the front page and in the blogs). Some are obviously female, others not so obvious.
... and frankly, why should it matter? Every gamer would love to be paid to write about games or gain the status of an editor on a known gaming web site... it's sexist to think that women should be selected for these positions on the basis of their gender and not on the basis of their abilities. Most of the "feminist" voices on Dtoid seem to be men... while many of the women here just want to be treated as equals... as gamers (and for the most part, we are).
Anyone is free to write a blog here and if the blog is good it often gets promoted. There is no sexism, racism, homophobia or any other discrimination in blog promotions to the front page - Dtoid is one of the few sites that allows for that kind of voice - for any decent writer, male or female.
... and frankly, why should it matter? Every gamer would love to be paid to write about games or gain the status of an editor on a known gaming web site... it's sexist to think that women should be selected for these positions on the basis of their gender and not on the basis of their abilities. Most of the "feminist" voices on Dtoid seem to be men... while many of the women here just want to be treated as equals... as gamers (and for the most part, we are).
Anyone is free to write a blog here and if the blog is good it often gets promoted. There is no sexism, racism, homophobia or any other discrimination in blog promotions to the front page - Dtoid is one of the few sites that allows for that kind of voice - for any decent writer, male or female.
Diversity is always good? I always considered it a morally gray concept, personally. A town that suddenly acquires a large population of white supremacists/Militant Islamists/The Westboro Baptists/Black Panthers/Zetas members/ (insert your bug bear here)may be more diverse for the presence of their perspective, but maybe not better for it.
@Elsa, i agree that the person best qualified for the position should get it strictly based on the quality of their work and nothing else.
I apologize for my earlier comment.
I apologize for my earlier comment.
Yeah, the company I worked for said the same thing. They promoted women to management just to balance things out. Then those women got fired for stealing from the company. Then the company complained again about the lack of women. The management of my building finally said they would hire or promote more women if they got anyone that could do the job properly. This whole issue is just stupid.
"Diversity can only ever be a good thing"
That isn't really true. Diversity for the sake of diversity is often not a good thing. Losing track of that can be very bad for a business.
A friend of mine was given a corporate mandate to hire contractors based on minority status over quality of work because of a new diversity program. The scale went from Native American female at the top to white male at the bottom. He had no choice but to pass over his usual choices and contract a new group with female ownership. They ended up bringing in one of the old contractors to fix things at an even greater expense. The price tag for that project was over double what it should have been.
Diversity is good when all else is close to equal, but it's certainly no magic formula.
That isn't really true. Diversity for the sake of diversity is often not a good thing. Losing track of that can be very bad for a business.
A friend of mine was given a corporate mandate to hire contractors based on minority status over quality of work because of a new diversity program. The scale went from Native American female at the top to white male at the bottom. He had no choice but to pass over his usual choices and contract a new group with female ownership. They ended up bringing in one of the old contractors to fix things at an even greater expense. The price tag for that project was over double what it should have been.
Diversity is good when all else is close to equal, but it's certainly no magic formula.
@32BitSin: i decided that any argument about a fictional characters clothing is stupid because people refuse to apply the same standards to both genders
"If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better." So women are better than men now? How progressive.
I can kind of understand appealing to women more when it comes to the games themselves. More customers mean more money. Education and work environment are different. If you give a preference to one group over another there is going to be discrimination involved. In other words, if you give a contract to someone because they are female or scholarship money to a multimedia college (which they do) you are refusing that same opportunity to someone else because they are male.
If we really want to get to a point in our society where we treat each other according to character alone then pushing stuff like "diversity" merely emphasizes differences that, ideally, aren't supposed to matter. We can't be against gender/racial discrimination and then advocate for something that clearly involves that same discrimination. A poor racial/gender history is not an excuse because it only takes a small sliver of human history into account and lays blind, blanket guilt on large groups of people.
Anyway, that's my long winded response. Oh, and one more thing, the majority of occupational deaths in this country happen to males. Maybe people should focus on that first when they feel the need to discuss to talk about work gender proportions.
If we really want to get to a point in our society where we treat each other according to character alone then pushing stuff like "diversity" merely emphasizes differences that, ideally, aren't supposed to matter. We can't be against gender/racial discrimination and then advocate for something that clearly involves that same discrimination. A poor racial/gender history is not an excuse because it only takes a small sliver of human history into account and lays blind, blanket guilt on large groups of people.
Anyway, that's my long winded response. Oh, and one more thing, the majority of occupational deaths in this country happen to males. Maybe people should focus on that first when they feel the need to discuss to talk about work gender proportions.
The problem is you can't force anything to happen, or there WILL be backlash. All you can do is guide or channel change. Affirmative action looks so good on paper, but it is difficult to execute. The other side of the spectrum is how long have "whites" i.e. the majority, how long have they ruled and exploited other "lesser" peoples, i.e. the minority? Should descendants have to pay for what their ancestors set forth? but this is for another topic
We should allow diversity to...divsersify, however. We should let it run it's course; new ideas, new people, new cultures, allow them to enrich our own. Good for her. Games have become a bit boring lately, I'd love to see what new perspectives bring, if Portal is any indication.
We should allow diversity to...divsersify, however. We should let it run it's course; new ideas, new people, new cultures, allow them to enrich our own. Good for her. Games have become a bit boring lately, I'd love to see what new perspectives bring, if Portal is any indication.
And I'm out. This site used to have interesting a cool news on upcoming and interesting games.. now daily its just becoming a place to hear about women in the industry or how something is or isn't sexist. The only good thing here is Tony Ponce. For what it's worth Tony, I always liked your articles and thought you were a decent guy. As for me, I'm hopping over to Joystiq for a little while, at least until things get back on track.
Diversity *can* be a good thing, assuming that diversity actually brings something quality to the table.
To echo what others are saying, unless core gaming expands beyond a largely male demographic, a female perspective won't change much (or be particularly welcomed).
To echo what others are saying, unless core gaming expands beyond a largely male demographic, a female perspective won't change much (or be particularly welcomed).
"or be particularly welcomed"
I call BS on that. The gaming industry is more welcoming to women than people think. Many studios have female executives and leadership roles now. Just not many that are actually creating or directing games yet but that'll change.
I call BS on that. The gaming industry is more welcoming to women than people think. Many studios have female executives and leadership roles now. Just not many that are actually creating or directing games yet but that'll change.
"If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better."
Oh, so close to a rational argument but then she had to throw this line out there. I'm trying to figure out how this is not a sexist thing to say considering she offers no actual proof of this.
Anyways, the proof is in the pudding. When more women ultimately join the gaming industry we will see if games sell better, because that's what's important to the industry after all. Quality of the product and consumer satisfaction were tossed out the window years ago.
Oh, so close to a rational argument but then she had to throw this line out there. I'm trying to figure out how this is not a sexist thing to say considering she offers no actual proof of this.
Anyways, the proof is in the pudding. When more women ultimately join the gaming industry we will see if games sell better, because that's what's important to the industry after all. Quality of the product and consumer satisfaction were tossed out the window years ago.
"First of all, women are just good for business. If you read any book around women who have leadership roles in businesses, ultimately those businesses are doing better."
So, a vagina makes a person a better corporate leader?
What's with all the misandry on Destructoid lately?
Sorry, that's a terrible question my irrational and violent penis made me ask. Also I'm obviously not very bright for not wholeheartedly agreeing with whatever women tell me the moment they finish speaking.
When will I learn? Oh, right, I'm male. Learning isn't one of my strong points.
So, a vagina makes a person a better corporate leader?
What's with all the misandry on Destructoid lately?
Sorry, that's a terrible question my irrational and violent penis made me ask. Also I'm obviously not very bright for not wholeheartedly agreeing with whatever women tell me the moment they finish speaking.
When will I learn? Oh, right, I'm male. Learning isn't one of my strong points.
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