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Freedom of speech and expression (no matter how vulgar or violent) is getting nerfed all over the damn place. We love to make it out to be a huge ordeal, and honestly, sometimes it is. I only hope that someone puts a little common sense into the heads of the few who make these decisions and just bump up the ratings so that it's "suggested" that only a mature audience views/plays the game.
Well.. I realize this is a HIGHLY unpopular point of view, but I take pretty much the same view as I do with Hostel or SAW. Why the fuck does the violence have to be so casual? The torture and wailing for mercy is treated with sadistic indifference and sure I played manhunt 1 about as much as any of you did (an hour or two tops).
I may not condone the censorship of any expression of art or free speech, but come on.. this is a bad video game which lives or dies by how much controversy it can stir up... hell, they probably went out of their way to make sure it would be banned. This is a manufactured controversy, and Manhunt 2 is not worth my outrage.
I may not condone the censorship of any expression of art or free speech, but come on.. this is a bad video game which lives or dies by how much controversy it can stir up... hell, they probably went out of their way to make sure it would be banned. This is a manufactured controversy, and Manhunt 2 is not worth my outrage.
Lolthien,
It's not about being a shitty game or being too violent, or just living on the merits of the controversy it can manufacture. It's about a consumer who is of legal age to be able to choose for himself.
It's not about being a shitty game or being too violent, or just living on the merits of the controversy it can manufacture. It's about a consumer who is of legal age to be able to choose for himself.
Bully was an excellent counterpoint to your arguement Lolthien.
It was the antithesis of what Manhunt is and seemed to exist solely to twist off people who think all this violence REALLY hurts people. Look at all the controversy Bully created just on name and a handful of screenshots for MONTHS.
It was the antithesis of what Manhunt is and seemed to exist solely to twist off people who think all this violence REALLY hurts people. Look at all the controversy Bully created just on name and a handful of screenshots for MONTHS.
@lolthien
Coherent enough, I'm just glad someone else feels the same way about games like Manhunt (also Hostel or SAW. I'm a lifetime horror lover and all I can say is COME ON.)
Coherent enough, I'm just glad someone else feels the same way about games like Manhunt (also Hostel or SAW. I'm a lifetime horror lover and all I can say is COME ON.)
The importers are going to make a fortune out of this game, BUT! it could also lead to law suits against the importers for bringing such harsh pornography into the UK.
Well i can guarantee you that I'll be trying to get one of my local game shops (Hopefully the good one. GAMES CENTRE.CO.UK ) to import this for me.
Ah well at least I still have the Excellent Scottish weather, *looks out window* AW SHITE!!!
AND i see what you guys mean about the orange ad, i wasn't getting it with windows explorer but i was getting it with Firefox.
Well i can guarantee you that I'll be trying to get one of my local game shops (Hopefully the good one. GAMES CENTRE.CO.UK ) to import this for me.
Ah well at least I still have the Excellent Scottish weather, *looks out window* AW SHITE!!!
AND i see what you guys mean about the orange ad, i wasn't getting it with windows explorer but i was getting it with Firefox.
Those fucks. Why can't they mind their own business? Thats right, you import that fucker and play it. Then have some children play it.
Christ. I mean, I'm all for carding 14-year-olds who want to buy M-rated games, but banning them entirely? Shit.
Honestly though, I'm with Lolthien and Rockvillain on this one. Was Manhunt 2 even going to be any good? If they were doing this to, say, Silent Hill 5, THEN I'd be outraged. This is just a collection of cheap waggle gimmicks. The whole game screams
Tell you what, Rockstar. I'll pay attention when you make a game with a subtext more compelling than "It's a dog-eat-dog world! Let's get those fuckers!" I grew out of that phase when GTA III came out.
Honestly though, I'm with Lolthien and Rockvillain on this one. Was Manhunt 2 even going to be any good? If they were doing this to, say, Silent Hill 5, THEN I'd be outraged. This is just a collection of cheap waggle gimmicks. The whole game screams
Tell you what, Rockstar. I'll pay attention when you make a game with a subtext more compelling than "It's a dog-eat-dog world! Let's get those fuckers!" I grew out of that phase when GTA III came out.
Man, the UK has let itself down with this one. Here's an example of why banning or censorship doesn't work:
If you want a rating then you are not allowed to show a male erection, fine, so how hav some film makers got past this religous inspired facism? They create a demon rapist with 6 dicks that likes to rape school girls, technically this 6 dicked monster does not have a male erection becaus it is not a male. I would say the post censorship creation is much worse than the pre censorship subject right?
The point here is that banning & censorship only creates something much worse, through the efforts to dodge ridiculous censorship and bannig laws, people will create a much more disturbing product simply beause they are forced to think of new ways to avoid censorship.
So, this is all bollocks, it's facist and totalitarian, plus it only creates more problems, which ever way you look at it, it's an own goal by the BBFC.
On a side note, Copernicus was banned and threatened with death for claiming that it was in fact the earth that span round the sun, not vice versa. I'm not comparing Rockstar with Copernicus but I'm highlighting the regressive attitude of our moral guardians...nay, our gods of moral order.
If you want a rating then you are not allowed to show a male erection, fine, so how hav some film makers got past this religous inspired facism? They create a demon rapist with 6 dicks that likes to rape school girls, technically this 6 dicked monster does not have a male erection becaus it is not a male. I would say the post censorship creation is much worse than the pre censorship subject right?
The point here is that banning & censorship only creates something much worse, through the efforts to dodge ridiculous censorship and bannig laws, people will create a much more disturbing product simply beause they are forced to think of new ways to avoid censorship.
So, this is all bollocks, it's facist and totalitarian, plus it only creates more problems, which ever way you look at it, it's an own goal by the BBFC.
On a side note, Copernicus was banned and threatened with death for claiming that it was in fact the earth that span round the sun, not vice versa. I'm not comparing Rockstar with Copernicus but I'm highlighting the regressive attitude of our moral guardians...nay, our gods of moral order.
Right, I could well launch into a several thousand word tirade ripping into heart of the BBFC's slapdash and inconsistent inner workings and the whole pathetic, apathetic, right-wing nanny state that is UK culture, and believe me, I'm very tempted.
But to be honest, as angry as I am, this has just made me too sad and embarrassed by the country I live in to find the motivation to kick off. I thought we were over this. This would be hilarious if it wasn't such a tragic indication of where we are as a society. This kind of thing was wrong in the '50s, and it's beyond words now. I'm leaving the country. And that's not a comic exaggeration.
But to be honest, as angry as I am, this has just made me too sad and embarrassed by the country I live in to find the motivation to kick off. I thought we were over this. This would be hilarious if it wasn't such a tragic indication of where we are as a society. This kind of thing was wrong in the '50s, and it's beyond words now. I'm leaving the country. And that's not a comic exaggeration.
Whoa.
Some smell's in the air ... *sniff* ... smells like europeans will have to pass on this one. I'm from Germany and seeing that part uno has been banned there already, part due will share the same fate. Austrians, don't do it, too ! >_<
Some smell's in the air ... *sniff* ... smells like europeans will have to pass on this one. I'm from Germany and seeing that part uno has been banned there already, part due will share the same fate. Austrians, don't do it, too ! >_<
David, I've been trying for years to get out as you well know, and if you ever get out there before me ... send for me, 'k? I'll do the same for you.
Fuck video games, I'm getting back into live TV. At least there you can work in a pair of tits or two before you get yanked off the air.
My game has cleavage in it. Do I have to donate a percentage of my profits to the Church of England now?
My game has cleavage in it. Do I have to donate a percentage of my profits to the Church of England now?
I'm just hoping they're going to have it released in France. As far as I'm aware all Wii PAL games automatically change to the default language set on the console, meaning that you could buy a Frog version and play it over here in England in English.
Very disappointed with the BBFC decision, although I'm sure Take2 will appeal and get it overturned as SCI did with Carmageddon years ago.
Very disappointed with the BBFC decision, although I'm sure Take2 will appeal and get it overturned as SCI did with Carmageddon years ago.
You guys better get off your butts and put on some public demonstrations. Call your equivilant of civil-right lawyers. Write letter after letter to your MPs and your broadcasters.
This isn't an attack on videogames, it an attack on your rights. Go on, it won't hurt. (Well firehoses hurt a little)
This isn't an attack on videogames, it an attack on your rights. Go on, it won't hurt. (Well firehoses hurt a little)
How about some kind of petition for the BBFC to be more transparent? I don't believe for a second that this game is any more morally bankrupt than most the other stuff I've been enjoying recently. How can torture porn like hostel and saw scrape through without many problems, but a dodgy dated looking stalker get banned? Personally I think this will be overturned on appeal and go on to sell shitloads, which is probably what Rockstar want.
What a pathetic state we're in, how hypocritical and uneven.
ps, please sort out the orange advert.........
What a pathetic state we're in, how hypocritical and uneven.
ps, please sort out the orange advert.........
Ireland also banned it for being too violent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven;t they been in the midst of a religious civil war for years now? Is there no violence involved in people blowing other people up for not being the same kind of Christians??
We should do something, we British Dtoiders. Stevenjazz is right. Online petitions are lame, maybe there's something original, befitting of Destructoid, that can be done to give a voice to the other side of the games debate.
David & Jim, so you are trapped in the UK too? This place is like a prison island sometimes. I am also planning an "Escape from UK" mission, Vancouver is my destination next year.
I also thought we were beyond this crap, but I'm afraid we are still a nation which reverts back to it's Vicorian values all too easily. Ironically, it as the UK which recently produced a study on gaming, proving that there is no link between videogame violence and mental instability, from this study they found that people are far more likely to emotionally react to film or news bulletins.
It's also ironic that a religion which is based on the slow and relentless torture of a man nailed to a cross has not been banned and...you know what? I'm also too embarassed to continue.
I also thought we were beyond this crap, but I'm afraid we are still a nation which reverts back to it's Vicorian values all too easily. Ironically, it as the UK which recently produced a study on gaming, proving that there is no link between videogame violence and mental instability, from this study they found that people are far more likely to emotionally react to film or news bulletins.
It's also ironic that a religion which is based on the slow and relentless torture of a man nailed to a cross has not been banned and...you know what? I'm also too embarassed to continue.
1- They did play the game, or at least they said they did. According to http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/manhunt-2-banned-in-uk-270070.php they had a team of testers who played several hours each on multiple levels. They have made their decision based on a pretty representative selection of the game. Compare that to the zero hours of playtime any of you guys have had, and then ask yourselves who is more qualified to decide whether it's appropriate.
2- Ratings like 18+ 23+ etc. don't really do anything significant. Kids will get the games regardless of the rating, and slapping an adult rating on it will only make them more hungry to try it.
3- The first manhunt was pretty fucking graphic. One finishing move allowed you to ram a chainsaw down through a guy's head and into his torso, then turn it on. While you might see something like this in a movie (although the shot would probably cut away at the last minute or something), it's done by the bad guy and presented as a horrible act. In Manhunt, you got bonuses for using the most graphic killing moves. Reiterating that: you are actively encouraged to be as sadistic as possible. This sequel is supposed to be even more intense in these regards.
Honestly, I think that banning the game makes some sense. Movies might depict some pretty heinous acts, but they generally don't glamorize them, at least not overtly. This game does. It's probably the closest thing that exists to Jack Thompson's infamous "murder simulations". Personally, I feel like kids today are evil and stupid enough without a game which rewards them for violently mutilating other people. The line has to be drawn somewhere as to what's appropriate and what isn't, and I think that the BBFC made a tough but fair decision.
But anyone here who has played through enough of Manhunt 2 to get a feel for it can feel free to contradict me.
2- Ratings like 18+ 23+ etc. don't really do anything significant. Kids will get the games regardless of the rating, and slapping an adult rating on it will only make them more hungry to try it.
3- The first manhunt was pretty fucking graphic. One finishing move allowed you to ram a chainsaw down through a guy's head and into his torso, then turn it on. While you might see something like this in a movie (although the shot would probably cut away at the last minute or something), it's done by the bad guy and presented as a horrible act. In Manhunt, you got bonuses for using the most graphic killing moves. Reiterating that: you are actively encouraged to be as sadistic as possible. This sequel is supposed to be even more intense in these regards.
Honestly, I think that banning the game makes some sense. Movies might depict some pretty heinous acts, but they generally don't glamorize them, at least not overtly. This game does. It's probably the closest thing that exists to Jack Thompson's infamous "murder simulations". Personally, I feel like kids today are evil and stupid enough without a game which rewards them for violently mutilating other people. The line has to be drawn somewhere as to what's appropriate and what isn't, and I think that the BBFC made a tough but fair decision.
But anyone here who has played through enough of Manhunt 2 to get a feel for it can feel free to contradict me.
Do you want original or something that is going to work? This is not a marketing campaign or a inherently fun activity, it's serious. (I'm ready for thew intrnets is serious business pics)
The game by the way does have a literary message, not just mindless violence. A secret organization kidnaps people and tries to use psychological technologies to turn them into soldiers. Maybe the british gov't is doing this. Maybe the US, Maybe Iran, Maybe private companies and NGO's. Maybe not. But games, like movies, books, etc, are a medium for these stories. 1984, Faranheit 451, Terminator, Blade Runner, Clockwork Orange. Looks like they are coming true.
The game by the way does have a literary message, not just mindless violence. A secret organization kidnaps people and tries to use psychological technologies to turn them into soldiers. Maybe the british gov't is doing this. Maybe the US, Maybe Iran, Maybe private companies and NGO's. Maybe not. But games, like movies, books, etc, are a medium for these stories. 1984, Faranheit 451, Terminator, Blade Runner, Clockwork Orange. Looks like they are coming true.
I think Dtoid should create a DVD which features all the violent films, books or whetever that haven't been banned. Edit together all the violent footage and send it to the mainstream media, get it mentioned by the news channels. This would clearly show the ridiculous hypocritical banning of Manhunt 2.
"Compare that to the zero hours of playtime any of you guys have had, and then ask yourselves who is more qualified to decide whether it's appropriate. "
And there, you've just argued my point for me. I want the right to decide FOR MYSELF whether the game is appropriate. Now, thanks to the BBFC, I cannot exercise such a right. You might smugly comment that we can't make a decision on the game because we haven't played it, but that's my entire point.
I should have a right to decide what I do and do not experience, if there is no harm to anybody else. The very fact that the testers who tried this game are not in therapy is enough proof that the game is not harmful. I want my damn basic rights.
And there, you've just argued my point for me. I want the right to decide FOR MYSELF whether the game is appropriate. Now, thanks to the BBFC, I cannot exercise such a right. You might smugly comment that we can't make a decision on the game because we haven't played it, but that's my entire point.
I should have a right to decide what I do and do not experience, if there is no harm to anybody else. The very fact that the testers who tried this game are not in therapy is enough proof that the game is not harmful. I want my damn basic rights.
Jim: It's a deal. If I get away from here before you, I'll send a life raft straight away.
steven: Your last paragraph is exactly right, and exactly my problem. Although I'm looking forward to Manhunt 2 (And yes, I'm using present tense because I am going to get it one way or another), I have no particular allegiance to Rockstar as a company or any protective feelings towards their work in particular. However I do have excessively protective feelings towards the human right of free speech and ability to choose your own entertainment.
It's very hard to use the word "fascism" without sounding like a melodramatic teenager, but we are dealing with a basic suppression of a human freedom by a self-appointed, self-important, "elite" minority here who judge themselves to me more intellectually, psychologically, and morally worthy and competent than the rest of us. A lot of other countries would rip their capitals apart (metaphorically or literally) at an afront like this, and quite rightly so. But while the British people have a history of fighting like dogs for the right reason, they're generally so apathetic they'll only do it when their backs are totally against the wall. But they never realise that the persistent drip effect of things like this is what leads them there in the first place.
So kick up a fuss. Write letters, and if you can get enough people, organise a protest. This is the internet. Use it, and let's do something about this idiocy...
steven: Your last paragraph is exactly right, and exactly my problem. Although I'm looking forward to Manhunt 2 (And yes, I'm using present tense because I am going to get it one way or another), I have no particular allegiance to Rockstar as a company or any protective feelings towards their work in particular. However I do have excessively protective feelings towards the human right of free speech and ability to choose your own entertainment.
It's very hard to use the word "fascism" without sounding like a melodramatic teenager, but we are dealing with a basic suppression of a human freedom by a self-appointed, self-important, "elite" minority here who judge themselves to me more intellectually, psychologically, and morally worthy and competent than the rest of us. A lot of other countries would rip their capitals apart (metaphorically or literally) at an afront like this, and quite rightly so. But while the British people have a history of fighting like dogs for the right reason, they're generally so apathetic they'll only do it when their backs are totally against the wall. But they never realise that the persistent drip effect of things like this is what leads them there in the first place.
So kick up a fuss. Write letters, and if you can get enough people, organise a protest. This is the internet. Use it, and let's do something about this idiocy...
porcelainpenguin - you hate free speech. Cool. I am glad we can have both sides represented fairly and openly. I love free speech, it is what gives me the right to complain about the ratings, and you the right to complain about the game.
But Rockstar, and all the adults who want to purchase the game, can't express there opinion about what they think entertainment should be because the game is banned.
If adults don't want it they don't have to buy it. VG consoles have parental locks just like TV's and DVD players. Movie theatres have a far worse track record than video games stores(in the US).
But Rockstar, and all the adults who want to purchase the game, can't express there opinion about what they think entertainment should be because the game is banned.
If adults don't want it they don't have to buy it. VG consoles have parental locks just like TV's and DVD players. Movie theatres have a far worse track record than video games stores(in the US).
Yeah, I should point out I've no sympathy for Rockstar here. They're sensationalistic and love this kind of stuff, and likely bank on this kind of controversy. They do it on purpose so I don't feel bad for them. However, my fears lie with the precedent this could set for the future and the continued treatment of games as something more vile and other forms of art.
I hope Rockstar get this overturned for future games.
I hope Rockstar get this overturned for future games.
It's a game about killing. There's nothing more to it. You just go from one guy to the next killing them in more and more brutal ways and it's the only way to progress through the game. There's no higher message or higher objective and for that reason it has been banned the same way a film about the same would be banned.
Who cares about Manhunt? you do remember the first one don't you?
Who cares about Manhunt? you do remember the first one don't you?
Not just forms of art or videogames at stake here. Landlords, Managers and owners of pubs and restaurant won't have 'freedom of expression' with regards to running a business after 1st July.
We should have the freedom of choice whether to buy the game or not, after all we did have the freedom of choice whether to watch the Saw series of films or not.
We should also have the freedom of choice to run a 'smokers bar', where the management, staff and customers are free to drink, socialise and work in a smoking environment. If I were a landlord of a pub I'd ensure that staff sign a disclaimer and turn the pub into the only smoking pub in London.
It'd be jammed 7 days per week, and by the way I don't smoke and never have done.
This country really has gone to the dogs, for those of you looking to move abroad I'd suggest Canada - Montreal in particular.
We should have the freedom of choice whether to buy the game or not, after all we did have the freedom of choice whether to watch the Saw series of films or not.
We should also have the freedom of choice to run a 'smokers bar', where the management, staff and customers are free to drink, socialise and work in a smoking environment. If I were a landlord of a pub I'd ensure that staff sign a disclaimer and turn the pub into the only smoking pub in London.
It'd be jammed 7 days per week, and by the way I don't smoke and never have done.
This country really has gone to the dogs, for those of you looking to move abroad I'd suggest Canada - Montreal in particular.
killboy: It's not ABOUT Manhunt, it's about the bigger picture. I hated the first game, but when GAME pulled it from the shelves over that inane murder case, I was livid. This is about basic freedom here and the treatment of videogames as more than a vile piece of trash.
I don't believe a movie would get treated the same these days. What's the higher message in MOST movies? Why does there NEED to be a higher message? It's art, it exists for its own sake, and we have a right to produce whatever harmless art we like. Fake violence is harmless.
I don't believe a movie would get treated the same these days. What's the higher message in MOST movies? Why does there NEED to be a higher message? It's art, it exists for its own sake, and we have a right to produce whatever harmless art we like. Fake violence is harmless.
One last point. The most violent periods in human history were NOT coupled with violent movies or videogames. Whats the excuse for the brutal wars, inquisistion, witch hunts? I am sure of one thing, it wasn't Hostel, or Saw, or Manhunt 2.
Thats so lame. If Ron Paul gets elected in 08 and gets rid of the War on X (Drugs, terror, poverty, etc) , america will get into
War on Vidya Games
War on Vidya Games
As always with things like this, it's hysterical recationaries allowing their prejudices to dictate their decisios, scenarios like this are never based on facts or evidence, which is why I think that a simple illustration of the facts and evidence is all that is needed. Everyone can go on forever arguing their points, but evidence is the only way to put an end to such bollocks.
The classic case is Judas Priest being taken to court for having harmful subliminal messages in their music which can be heard when played backward, everyone had to take it seriously because there were serious claims being made (rather like the BBFC claims), in the end the case was dropped when Judas Priest played a number of their records backward to reveal such absurd random nonsense, proving that the listener could hear anything they want to hear. From that moment, everyone realised how ridiculous at all was and with embarrassment the case was closed.
Something similar needs to happen here, people just need to assemble some evidence which proves that this banning is inconsistent and actually makes no sense. Once that happens, nothing like this will happen again.
For example, off the top of my head, the Saw trilogy is far more disturbing than any videogame, evidence already backs up this claim, yet anyone over 18 can buy these films on DVD. According to the BBFC's latest logic, the Saw films should be banned. Let's not get dragged into an emtional debate and instead use the overwhelming evidece we have in our favour.
The classic case is Judas Priest being taken to court for having harmful subliminal messages in their music which can be heard when played backward, everyone had to take it seriously because there were serious claims being made (rather like the BBFC claims), in the end the case was dropped when Judas Priest played a number of their records backward to reveal such absurd random nonsense, proving that the listener could hear anything they want to hear. From that moment, everyone realised how ridiculous at all was and with embarrassment the case was closed.
Something similar needs to happen here, people just need to assemble some evidence which proves that this banning is inconsistent and actually makes no sense. Once that happens, nothing like this will happen again.
For example, off the top of my head, the Saw trilogy is far more disturbing than any videogame, evidence already backs up this claim, yet anyone over 18 can buy these films on DVD. According to the BBFC's latest logic, the Saw films should be banned. Let's not get dragged into an emtional debate and instead use the overwhelming evidece we have in our favour.
"I should have a right to decide what I do and do not experience, if there is no harm to anybody else. The very fact that the testers who tried this game are not in therapy is enough proof that the game is not harmful. I want my damn basic rights."
Perhaps I should have spent more time discussing the fact that if the game is legal in the UK, regardless of what age restrictions they set on it, kids will play it. Again, putting a mature rating on it would even act to make more kids play it. The harm here which you say doesn't exist is that youngsters with negligent parents (i.e. 90% of the children in the world) will be allowed to expose themselves to what amounts to murder porn. The testers aren't in therapy because they're adults. They are mature enough (hopefully) to differentiate between violent fantasy and reality. Also, nowhere is there a right to play a violent video game. No, shut up, don't even fucking tell me about free speech etc. The right to buy whatever you want does not exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have to deal with my skeezy dealer.
"porcelainpenguin - you hate free speech." The logical jump this comment requires actually made my brain shit itself. Literally, I know have cerebral diarrhea running down both sides of my head. You tell me I must hate freedom of speech for expressing what you just admitted was the other side of the debate? Sorry, I must be forgetting myself. Obviously the only way the first amendment can be protected in this thread is if only your side of the argument is allowed. I'm not exactly sure what opinion you think is being suppressed by this game being censored? That torturing and killing people is totally awesome? That's definitely a viewpoint that's unfairly underrepresented in our day and age. Oh wait...
Perhaps I should have spent more time discussing the fact that if the game is legal in the UK, regardless of what age restrictions they set on it, kids will play it. Again, putting a mature rating on it would even act to make more kids play it. The harm here which you say doesn't exist is that youngsters with negligent parents (i.e. 90% of the children in the world) will be allowed to expose themselves to what amounts to murder porn. The testers aren't in therapy because they're adults. They are mature enough (hopefully) to differentiate between violent fantasy and reality. Also, nowhere is there a right to play a violent video game. No, shut up, don't even fucking tell me about free speech etc. The right to buy whatever you want does not exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have to deal with my skeezy dealer.
"porcelainpenguin - you hate free speech." The logical jump this comment requires actually made my brain shit itself. Literally, I know have cerebral diarrhea running down both sides of my head. You tell me I must hate freedom of speech for expressing what you just admitted was the other side of the debate? Sorry, I must be forgetting myself. Obviously the only way the first amendment can be protected in this thread is if only your side of the argument is allowed. I'm not exactly sure what opinion you think is being suppressed by this game being censored? That torturing and killing people is totally awesome? That's definitely a viewpoint that's unfairly underrepresented in our day and age. Oh wait...
Zardoz, Sterling, Houghton- You mean you guys get unsensored boobs in the UK? I was just in London visiting an Uncle, and I never saw any boobs.
If I worked for Rockstar, I would quickly edit Manhunt 2, gameplaye engine, plot, character models and graphics for the UK. I'd take out all the blood and graphic violence. All murder weapons would be replacing them with magical fairy wands of power that you waggle over foes making them horny and non-threatening.
And totally nude. And totally hot. The enemies would be 50% male and 50% female. Making out with each other at random times. Jiggling boobs. Simulated gay and straight sex. The works.
Would that be ok by UK game rating standards?
If they did that, I would buy both the US and UK versions of Manhunt 2, just to be a part of gaming history.
If I worked for Rockstar, I would quickly edit Manhunt 2, gameplaye engine, plot, character models and graphics for the UK. I'd take out all the blood and graphic violence. All murder weapons would be replacing them with magical fairy wands of power that you waggle over foes making them horny and non-threatening.
And totally nude. And totally hot. The enemies would be 50% male and 50% female. Making out with each other at random times. Jiggling boobs. Simulated gay and straight sex. The works.
Would that be ok by UK game rating standards?
If they did that, I would buy both the US and UK versions of Manhunt 2, just to be a part of gaming history.
"Perhaps I should have spent more time discussing the fact that if the game is legal in the UK, regardless of what age restrictions they set on it, kids will play it. Again, putting a mature rating on it would even act to make more kids play it."
Hardcore pornography is legal as well, with a rating on it. Do kids not watch porno? Of COURSE they do, and while I'd never supply a kid with the stuff, I'm not going to be so naive as to claim it destroys children and corrupts them. It never hurt me.
Nor did violent videogames and movies. You can be reactionary and call it "murder porn" if you wish (a very immature term, btw) but the fact of the matter is, fantasy violence in a videogame does not harm children. It's as simple as that.
And I do believe we should have the right to buy what we like, drugs included. As a libertarian in principle, I think anything that doesn't hurt someone (and I do believe games are just that - harmless) shouldn't be banned. It's should be the decision of the consumer, not some arbitrary body of people. We might not have that right entirely, but moving further AWAY from that right is only a bad thing.
But I'm wasting my time debating with someone who'd use the term "murder porn" seriously.
Hardcore pornography is legal as well, with a rating on it. Do kids not watch porno? Of COURSE they do, and while I'd never supply a kid with the stuff, I'm not going to be so naive as to claim it destroys children and corrupts them. It never hurt me.
Nor did violent videogames and movies. You can be reactionary and call it "murder porn" if you wish (a very immature term, btw) but the fact of the matter is, fantasy violence in a videogame does not harm children. It's as simple as that.
And I do believe we should have the right to buy what we like, drugs included. As a libertarian in principle, I think anything that doesn't hurt someone (and I do believe games are just that - harmless) shouldn't be banned. It's should be the decision of the consumer, not some arbitrary body of people. We might not have that right entirely, but moving further AWAY from that right is only a bad thing.
But I'm wasting my time debating with someone who'd use the term "murder porn" seriously.
Ok, murder porn phrase is probably a little excessive. Let me rephrase: it's a video game which glamorizes violent murder.
As for violent videogames and movies not doing any harm to developing minds, isn't it a little early to make that call. Plus what are you basing it on, other than your own personal experience?
I think the whole point is that you don't know for certain whether it has some negative impact on young minds (honestly, as a young child did you ever play a videogame in which you raped someone with a chainsaw?). Seeing as how you're really not missing out on anything significant by not playing this game (oh horrors, you don't get to play one videogame. life goes on) but you can't really argue that it's one of the more extreme examples of borderline content, my question is: What's the harm in playing it safe?
As for violent videogames and movies not doing any harm to developing minds, isn't it a little early to make that call. Plus what are you basing it on, other than your own personal experience?
I think the whole point is that you don't know for certain whether it has some negative impact on young minds (honestly, as a young child did you ever play a videogame in which you raped someone with a chainsaw?). Seeing as how you're really not missing out on anything significant by not playing this game (oh horrors, you don't get to play one videogame. life goes on) but you can't really argue that it's one of the more extreme examples of borderline content, my question is: What's the harm in playing it safe?
Can I just alert everyone to the Cblogs? Something important over there from Jim and myself.
Thankyou.
Thankyou.
The harm in playing it safe is that it sets a new precedent, that videogames can get banned if a few people decide it should be. Studies have been taken that prove there is NO link between videogames and violence. Add to that my own personal experiences, and the doubtless plethora of experiences from everyone on this site and the millions upon millions of gamers worldwide who aren't sadistic psychopaths and it doesn't take a genius to see which side of the argument has a lot more weight.
As I keep saying and you seem to want to ignore, this is NOT about "one videogame". It's about the kind of society we have, the double standards that we have and the future of gaming as a medium, let alone our basic individual freedoms that should be expanding, not shrinking.
In my youth, I did play a game where I raped someone with a chainsaw. It was called Doom. I also saw far worse things in the various horror movies I used to indulge in. Am I a dangerous individual because of it? No. I hate violence and avoid it at all costs.
Videogames, if anything, are the best possible thing for a frustrated and angry kid. They're an outlet. They let off some of that aggression. I've always used the more violent games as a way to let off steam and it works, it doesn't make me MORE worked up.
You're starting to sound like Jack Thompson.
As I keep saying and you seem to want to ignore, this is NOT about "one videogame". It's about the kind of society we have, the double standards that we have and the future of gaming as a medium, let alone our basic individual freedoms that should be expanding, not shrinking.
In my youth, I did play a game where I raped someone with a chainsaw. It was called Doom. I also saw far worse things in the various horror movies I used to indulge in. Am I a dangerous individual because of it? No. I hate violence and avoid it at all costs.
Videogames, if anything, are the best possible thing for a frustrated and angry kid. They're an outlet. They let off some of that aggression. I've always used the more violent games as a way to let off steam and it works, it doesn't make me MORE worked up.
You're starting to sound like Jack Thompson.
@porcelainpenguin It's that line of thought that allows kids and the weakminded(and their lawyers) to blame "negative media" for their own crimes and fuckups
I never played the original, but I have to admit I find the alleged content of this game a little unsettling. It seems a too cruel (by my standards of course).
But Sterling has already made the appropriate point. The state that regulates works of fiction for its citizens is a state that fails its citizens.
Let's say that every retailer does its part and makes sure a kid can't buy it. Kids are still going to play it, right? And that's not really a good thing. I don't think many people would support their child being exposed to content like that. But the sad thing is, I think this would just be a small example of how parents fail their children, and it impacts them in far worse ways than any videogame could.
Sigh. Our world is so fucked.
But Sterling has already made the appropriate point. The state that regulates works of fiction for its citizens is a state that fails its citizens.
Let's say that every retailer does its part and makes sure a kid can't buy it. Kids are still going to play it, right? And that's not really a good thing. I don't think many people would support their child being exposed to content like that. But the sad thing is, I think this would just be a small example of how parents fail their children, and it impacts them in far worse ways than any videogame could.
Sigh. Our world is so fucked.
Now, I don't think that they should've banned the game necessarily, but if there ever was a game that deserved this treatment, it's probably a Manhunt game. I mean, I have no problem with general violence in games and I don't support censorship of them, but this game is pretty much asking for it. Again, though, shouldn't have been banned.
In other words, I think both parties involved went too far. One got burned for it. Ultimately, I'm not interested in the game, so I don't care.
In other words, I think both parties involved went too far. One got burned for it. Ultimately, I'm not interested in the game, so I don't care.
Violent media is a catharsis, otherwise it wouldn't exist. If violent games and movies are so vile and damaging, why are they made at all, and why do people pay to watch/play them? We should all be puking and sobbing while watching Hallowe'en if we're genuinely so averse to media of that nature.
The human being is an aggressive animal after thousands of years of necessary hunter-gatherer instinct. It's just how we evolved to survive. These days however, we live in cities and are supposedly civilised. But go to any city centre at 2am on a Saturday morning and see how many people are having fights just for the sake of it. The aggression always spills out eventually.
But then consider the geeks who are at home at 2am playing Gears Of War quite happily and never considering actually hurting anyone.
The BBFC and Jack Thompson are looking at the drunken violent idiots of the world and wanting to stop the carnage, but they're directing their attacks at exactly the wrong group.
The human being is an aggressive animal after thousands of years of necessary hunter-gatherer instinct. It's just how we evolved to survive. These days however, we live in cities and are supposedly civilised. But go to any city centre at 2am on a Saturday morning and see how many people are having fights just for the sake of it. The aggression always spills out eventually.
But then consider the geeks who are at home at 2am playing Gears Of War quite happily and never considering actually hurting anyone.
The BBFC and Jack Thompson are looking at the drunken violent idiots of the world and wanting to stop the carnage, but they're directing their attacks at exactly the wrong group.
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