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Ever since I first picked up a controller, I've had this love/hate relationships with JRPG's. While I can see the positive points of these kinds of games (Story, Character Development, etc...) there has always been one tiny little thing, one thought that ate away at me every single time I tried to play one. "What is that?" I imagine you're asking. It's the thought that whenever the screen freezes, fractures and takes me to one of the battles (or however else it transcends from the overworld to the battle screen,) and the first turn is taken, the thought "this is stupid" ruins the experince for me.
Yes, the old staple of the JRPG, Turn-Based Combat. That which features prominently in the JRPG Genre, perhaps the most notable point, is that which ruins the genre for me. Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate JRPG's. Infact, I quite adore them for their merits in terms of their storytelling abilities and the way they handle their characters, but it's the Turn-Based battles that just irks me.
The problem that I have with Turn-Based combat is that, no matter how much I try and ignore it, I can't wrap my head around how I'm supposed to enjoy it, or what sense it actually makes not to have a real-time option. The whole concept of a Turn-Based battle seems completely and utterly stupid to me. Now, before any hate comes in, let me elaborate for a moment.
Picture, if you will, that you are a character in a JRPG. You and your party are wandering the grasslands outside Whereveritscalledville or Whatsitsplace, when you're attacked by a group of Slimes or Wolves or Bandits or someother enemy. They are quicker than you and lunge towards you with the full intent to kill you. You wouldn't wait for them to hit you, then strike back, would you? No. You'd use whatever weapon/magic spell you had and attack them back or defend yourself.
That, to me, is what ruins it. The fact that no matter how hard I try, I cannot picture that kind of action actually happening, game or not. And the simple way the battles work, the menus and the waiting just make the whole process of the battle seem completely mundane. And just to rub salt in the wounds, I'll reach a boss, not be able to beat it, and have to spend a good three or four hours repeating the same, mundane battle sequence over and over and over again. It's generally at this point that I think "Fuck it" and put the controller down.
"So, you on the left, you shoot me. Then you on the right, then I'll attack you guys... Okay?"
But not for long... The seductive nature of the JRPG's plot will eventually bring me crawling back to it, begging for forgiveness and for another chance to taste the sweetness that is the story or finding out what happens to Soandso or Whoshisface. And I, once again, feel like a fool. It's perpetuates an endless cycle from which only completion of the game can vanquish. But there's always another JRPG.
I hate the mundanity and sheer lack of sense to the battles, but I love the way the plot threads together and the way the characters evolve. This makes the fact that my favourite game of all time is, in fact, a Turn-Based JRPG. Eventually, I got my self wondering what if there were a way to enjoy the parts I like about JRPG's with none of the boring Turn-Based Combat?
A question that was answered when I first played Star Ocean: Till the End of Time. A game that, to this day, is possibly one of my favourite JRPG's of all time. Not only because I thoroughly enjoyed the story and found the characters to be intriguing enough to keep me playing, but because of three simple words; "Real Time Battles." Yes, you heard me right, Real Time Battles in a JRPG. Praise the Videogame Gods. I was overjoyed at the fact that, for once, I wasn't bored with possibly the most time-consuming part of a JRPG.
But that hybrid, I find, is a rarity within the JRPG world. And that brings me to my closing statement.
The Humble JRPG is a genre that I love, yet it is probably one of the few genre's that I actually despise. Thinking the thoughts I have, and finally writing them down, has made me realise that one simple thing can ruin a game you would otherwise adore. I can only wish that there were more JRPG's like Star Ocean, yet at the same time I know that as long as there are Turn-Based games with good plots and likable characters, that I will come crawling back once again.
Contest:
6:20 PM on 12.07.2009
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Nice first blog!
Old school grinding is a lot like a narcotic. It's addictive and you have lose 8 hours of a day and not know where it went :(
In something like Chrono Trigger, you don't feel penalized for trying to explore every nook and cranny of the world because you can see the mobs playing soccer with the other mob at the bottom of the screen.
"Oh, look! A treasure chest! I'll just go see what is in- *battle mosaic* BALLS!!"
Real-time battles test your reflexes and turn-based ones test your strategy. Each has its own appeal. I personally like them both.
Maybe new games like Resonance of Fate will be exactly what you're looking for. And you really should try Tales of Vesperia, if you have a 360, or one of the other Tales games on a different console.
I played it only so far as to finish the story because apparently at a younger age I could bear to trudge through something just to complete it. At my current age I'd just turn it off and sell the game off at about the halfway point where it became clear that the story was absolutely terrible and the battle system became more and more imbalanced.
I don't give a rats ass if something makes more logical sense. If it doesn't function in a way that doesn't make me want to snap the disc in half then it might as well go the way of the old games since at least there I didn't have to worry about my party using items they shouldn't, or becoming suicidal idiots when they shouldn't or not healing me when they should.
All I can say is that you know a battle system is terrible when you put all the characters on manual, tuck two of them in the corner and solo the final boss [which wasn't easy at all to do].
The battle system, however, is full real time battle and in newer titles (Symphonia, Legendia, Abyss, Vesperia and now Graces on the consoles) three of your buddies can join you in fighting. All your moves and items are done in real time and trying to smack down an enemy in a strategically-sound and overly flashy way. I started with Symphonia and it spoiled me out of turn-based combat.
Though I totally understand your complaint and where it's coming from. But if all rpgs handled party battles like Dragon Age does, I might give up rpgs altogether. Because, while DA is a cool game, I find that I like the difficulty on casual because I don't want to constantly be scrambling to get my whole party doing what I want them to against enemies that don't hold still so I may lose track of which one I am trying to bring down first.
Turn-based battles allow for more thought and strategy. But I do agree the "Enemies on Left, Allies on Right (unless you're back attacked)" set up is nonsense. There should be more movement and more factors in melee combat like location, elevation, as well as the character's capabilities. However that brings us to Turn-based Strategy RPGS.
I thoroughly enjoy Star Ocean and most of the Tales games, but I find even then that the real-time battles somewhat take away from the experience while also adding, leaving me left in the middle where I was before. It's cool to have your party think on their own and help you out, but no AI is perfect, and even the ones that do the best of giving you customization tools (FFXII) still limit your options, and sometimes burn through items or MP faster than I would like. Which is a particular pain in the ass when I'm ankle deep in a dungeon that is gonna go clear to my eyeballs before I'm finished.
I think it would be nice to have old school jrpg turn-based combat mixed with Vagrant Story combat, mixed with Advent Children style visuals.
Also: Star Ocean 3? Really? You should really try the second one, it's better in every conceivable way. (It's also not turn-based)
I see what you're saying, though, even though it never bothered me.
But yeah! D&D and suspension of belief. It's good.
Honestly I have yet to experience an action-RPG with a truly great battle system. They're a nice change of pace from turn-based RPGs, but rarely do they have the depth or even as fun to play as many of the better turn-based RPGs I've played. Star Ocean is often praised for it's battle system, but really the only thing special about it was that it wasn't turn-based. The battle system, much like the rest of the game, was quite mediocre.
From what I remember, combat pauses when you have to open the menu to use an item, spell, or whatever.
"Hey boss guy, before you finish off my critically-HPed friend over there just stop for a second so I can drop a healing potion on my buddy" isn't all that different from "yo, enemy A, imma let you hit me but afterwards imma hit you with the greatest attack of all time. OF ALL TIME."
All hail FFT
sorry that made me belly laugh really hard
If I want reality based I'll play Batman Arkham Asylum or Ratchet & Clank where you do everything in real time. But for JRPG's I prefer a menu system where I can choose what each character will do. yes, it's more like chess than an action game but then agin it's not an action game. RTB in games like Tales gives you a crappy limited AI and it's far less effective than a solid menu based game.
The last Tales game I played "Symphonia" I think I just set my own guy to automatic and watched as the AI was setup to discourage effective game play. The battles were circular in Eternal Sonata but intensely frustrating and always giving the baddies a big edge with the light and dark on the battle field.
If you want JRPG's go turn based, if you want an action game with a great story look elsewhere.
also, though i personally don't mind the turn based system, i do wish that more RPGs had a kingdom hearts esque battle system... i hear FF versus XIII is supposedly like that.. considering the gameplay is being made by the kingdom hearts team, it better be like that.
With JRPG's Turn Based Combat is like a given but it's not necessarily bad.
I think it slows down the pace and makes you think a little which isn't bad. Real Time Strategy combat is good as well but it doesn't always work.
I though Real Time Strategy worked exceptionally well in Oblivion but I would have preferred Turn Based Combat in Fallout 3.
It just fits better with some games to be honest. It's like with Oblivion if you are in a big open world and you come across something during your adventures you kill it. Oblivion is a seamless world and Turn Based Combat or Cutscenes would look out of place in it.
On the other hand linear RPG's where you practically go from one spot to another to trudge through the storyline are much more suited to cutscenes and Turn Based Combat.
I think with open seamless worlds you want to feel a part of the world whereas with most linear RPG's and generally JRPG's the story is more important than the world and slowing you down to think about your actions or draw you into a cutscene might be seen as taking you out of the game world but it works well.
World of Warcraft has a pretty interesting approach to it all though. In World of Warcraft combat is real time but you are given a number of abilities.
The interesting part is those abilities can be used in various ways. If you are a warrior you basically smash whatever youre killing with your weapon. On the other hand if you are a Hunter things are not that simple.
As a Hunter you have a priority rotation which basically requires you to use your most powerful abilities when they are available. It's all done in real time but it requires you to think about it all just like you would pick and choose in Turn Based Combat.
I don't think World of Warcrafts approach will be copied much outside of MMO's though as the rotations used in high end raiding are pretty damn difficult to work out when you start thinking about abilities stacking for extra damage or buffs. It works well but it's a pain in the ass to learn.
Also...JRPGs != turn-based combat. Tales of ____ series, anyone? Star Ocean series (I know it was mentioned, but they've been around for a while)? Super Mario RPG/Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi (Pseudo turn-based)? I have to agree with Steve Cebu's point, that if you're looking for an action game then JRPGs probably aren't the right game to play.
They're like puzzle games or fighting games. Definitely not for all gamers, but the people who do like them love them.
And while I can no longer tolerate classic turn-based games anymore, there are quite a few JRPGs that innovate on the concept. Persona 3 and 4 are examples of JRPGs that are turn-based, yet are still very fun because of the quirks and aspects that ATLUS use to make them engaging and interesting.
Still, I can understand where you're coming from. Few things would make me happier as a gamer than a JRPG that incorporated WRPG aspects while still retaining the storytelling superiority that JRPGs are famous for.
That and I believe the turn-based system is supposed to add a level of strategy, allowing you to think out moves and plan ahead. Granted, it hardly ever works that way. Usually each character has one command that works best, so you click the same thing every time. If you manage MP, that's going between 2 commands, maybe 3.
I just like RPGs for the character customization. There's something satisfying about putting together a team that takes away thousands of HP every round, and can tear through dragons in one turn. I accept turn-based battles as a vehicle for building those characters and trying them out.
With this sort of system i find it hard to not draw parallels to WPRGs. Each game involve you having to wait for the simply attack to cool down, the difference is WRPG tend to put a cooldown on each individual skill while JRPG use a global system.
The comment you made, and ill quote, They are quicker than you and lunge towards you with the full intent to kill you. You wouldn't wait for them to hit you, then strike back, would you? No. .
I can go about this of two ways, i can use a really cheap way and say you are roleplaying a hero who doesnt have fast enough reflexes, keeping in mind that the only thing you control in an RPG is attack selection and stats (compared to an action game where you control the input on a much more interactive level).
The second way i can go about this is argue that when this monster attacks and the world swirls into combat and he gets the first attack off, assume thats happening significantly faster then the sluggish way that most turn based RPGs work. Dont look at it like the wolf encounters the party, stands still for a second as your heros stare it down then runs directly towards them and gets off an attack...that is just the combat palette to make it easy to keep an eye on everything.
I fully admit that the second point is much weaker than the first.
Most real-time combat battle systems are far too much hack'n'slash and not enough thought. Although Magnacarta 2 actually does a great job of mixing things up, as does Rogue Galaxy.
There's a reason Matador rapes everyone the first time in SMT Nocturn. And oh, he gets everone at least once. Maybe twice. And he's the second boss of the game, albeit an optional boss, but still not one to sneeze at.
That aside, so long as RPGs remain stat-dependant - and they really should be - there will be quirks in any RPG. I always hated how in some RPGs, you'd have "real time" action, but as you swung your sword and it looked as though it connected, it didn't. Elder Scrolls, I'm lookin' at you.
Real time action tends to look funny when it also calculates dice rolls and stats within it and you miss based on that when, visually, the hit landed. Make up your mind. At least how "miss" in the battle log.
I've no hard preference for combat types, so long as they make some kind of sense. I don't think real time action is any more or less appealing, in fact, I think real time RPG combat is harder to keep balanced.