surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
@ctg867
I won't bother searching through your comments far back enough to find the quote saying you hadn't played it. It seemed as though you still hadn't judging by the fact you said 10-20 hours when it's 7-8 hours long.
I'll stop making assumptions when you stop commenting about how this game is shallow and you don't want to hear about it. Just as no one said "I'm gonna come over there and give you a spanking", no one said you had to partake in these articles. It'll be gone in a day. Don't read it. Back off our game and we won't make assumptions. There is more to add because James Gunn was in the comments. He should be allowed to respond to his critics and fans.
Go read the Tekken or the GameGrumps articles instead of calling a game shallow when it has more depth in its level design and boss structure than the vast majority of AAA titles. You want to know why? Bring it. I'm ready to tell you.
I won't bother searching through your comments far back enough to find the quote saying you hadn't played it. It seemed as though you still hadn't judging by the fact you said 10-20 hours when it's 7-8 hours long.
I'll stop making assumptions when you stop commenting about how this game is shallow and you don't want to hear about it. Just as no one said "I'm gonna come over there and give you a spanking", no one said you had to partake in these articles. It'll be gone in a day. Don't read it. Back off our game and we won't make assumptions. There is more to add because James Gunn was in the comments. He should be allowed to respond to his critics and fans.
Go read the Tekken or the GameGrumps articles instead of calling a game shallow when it has more depth in its level design and boss structure than the vast majority of AAA titles. You want to know why? Bring it. I'm ready to tell you.
@James Gunn
This got much more interested in your game than the marketing or anything else regarding the game. Thank you for taking time to talk to your fans and haters.
This got much more interested in your game than the marketing or anything else regarding the game. Thank you for taking time to talk to your fans and haters.
<img border="0" src="http://www.greatwhitesnark.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/wolverine.jpg">
For James - enjoy a moment of quiet contemplation and ponder the mysteries held within these buns of steel.
For James - enjoy a moment of quiet contemplation and ponder the mysteries held within these buns of steel.
First time trying to post a pic on here and I've fucked it up. Man, I am so feeble when it comes to these things.
Fuck it, I tried.
Fuck it, I tried.
Mr. Gunn, I very much enjoy your perspective on these issues of sexism and sexuality. I haven't played LC yet, so I can't speak on the quality of your work, but I certainly found myself nodding along with your statements in this article quite often. Helps to move the game up a few spots on my to-do list (which is unfortunately very long).
And it's very cool of you to spend some time with the commentators here. Your responses to Lek and Mr. Baker were immensely gratifying. I couldn't have said any of that better.
And it's very cool of you to spend some time with the commentators here. Your responses to Lek and Mr. Baker were immensely gratifying. I couldn't have said any of that better.
The ultimate sexism is when you instantly criticize a character for being hot and sexy like Juliet.
The ultimate racism is from the liberal shithead that thinks they know best for whatever "minority" group they feel they are "saving".
So yeah, fuck all of you that are politically correct in the head and dead in the soul. You don't understand what life is all about quite yet. There might be hope for you, but you'll have to drop all of your security blankies and get the pacifier out of your mouths first.
The ultimate racism is from the liberal shithead that thinks they know best for whatever "minority" group they feel they are "saving".
So yeah, fuck all of you that are politically correct in the head and dead in the soul. You don't understand what life is all about quite yet. There might be hope for you, but you'll have to drop all of your security blankies and get the pacifier out of your mouths first.
@JamesGunn
"However, I personally don't think appealing to a man's penis (or a woman's vagina) is sexist. Shallow, yes. But not sexist."
Well, I kind of get what you're saying. But! With Lollipop Chainsaw, you or Suda 51, are yet again appealing to horny young male gamers. This is a demographic that exists by default. It does NOT need to be pandered to. So when you come up with something like LC, you are yet again perpetuating the idea that games are just for horny young males. And that's a leeeetle sexist in and of itself. It may not have been your intention. I understand that you just wanted to do something silly and fun, but at least take into account why some people are annoyed by this. Gamers are becoming more diverse and it just seems that the industry is constantly ignoring this and throwing out tired old formulas time and time again. Move on already.
"However, I personally don't think appealing to a man's penis (or a woman's vagina) is sexist. Shallow, yes. But not sexist."
Well, I kind of get what you're saying. But! With Lollipop Chainsaw, you or Suda 51, are yet again appealing to horny young male gamers. This is a demographic that exists by default. It does NOT need to be pandered to. So when you come up with something like LC, you are yet again perpetuating the idea that games are just for horny young males. And that's a leeeetle sexist in and of itself. It may not have been your intention. I understand that you just wanted to do something silly and fun, but at least take into account why some people are annoyed by this. Gamers are becoming more diverse and it just seems that the industry is constantly ignoring this and throwing out tired old formulas time and time again. Move on already.
"But I think it's important people don't confuse sexuality with sexism."
Pretty much this.. So many get this confused while they're spouting out their shit, that I try to listen, but just stop at some point. These people just don't seem to understand there's a difference.
"First of all, let me say, I think the gamer community has a big problem with women, and that is that so few women are in the industry!"
Here's the problem with this and what he says after: The people who keep fighting about the sexism in games, also fight about the lack of woman in the industry in the next sentence. But that's also why it falls on dead ears, because the fight goes from made up cartoons to real life people, with real lives, without even stopping to take a breathe and there's no separation being made between 2 completely different arguments.
So many try to say that the sexism in games is because of the sexism in the workplace, and use it as a bullet point, without really bothering to examine why that might be, or how to fix it so more women end up in the industry (my take is this: Woman are more practical then men and see that the video game industry is a ridiculous risk. So they don't gravitate towards it because why risk being jobless and needing to find work again in a few months?).
Reality of it is, games probably won't change, even if more women were involved, not with the way developers and publishers base games more-so on metrics and sure markets, instead of being like Grasshopper and taking some big risks with characterization and story. We'll have another million more made up, sexless, races, before there's the type of equality that those people are demanding.
I mean, hell, look at Tomb Raider. They're going the distance to make sure we know that a woman's written it, and that an actual woman is doing the voice and motion capture -people are still going to say the game is sexist because there's a possibility of rape around every corner, even if they never code a penis into the game, and she manages to shoot everyone in the groin with an arrow. The preconceived notions that people -be them gamers or the commenters from the outside looking in who think they know whats going on- have aren't going to magically go away because more women want to take the risk and go into game development.
Also, I'll never look at Wolverine's ass the same way again...
Pretty much this.. So many get this confused while they're spouting out their shit, that I try to listen, but just stop at some point. These people just don't seem to understand there's a difference.
"First of all, let me say, I think the gamer community has a big problem with women, and that is that so few women are in the industry!"
Here's the problem with this and what he says after: The people who keep fighting about the sexism in games, also fight about the lack of woman in the industry in the next sentence. But that's also why it falls on dead ears, because the fight goes from made up cartoons to real life people, with real lives, without even stopping to take a breathe and there's no separation being made between 2 completely different arguments.
So many try to say that the sexism in games is because of the sexism in the workplace, and use it as a bullet point, without really bothering to examine why that might be, or how to fix it so more women end up in the industry (my take is this: Woman are more practical then men and see that the video game industry is a ridiculous risk. So they don't gravitate towards it because why risk being jobless and needing to find work again in a few months?).
Reality of it is, games probably won't change, even if more women were involved, not with the way developers and publishers base games more-so on metrics and sure markets, instead of being like Grasshopper and taking some big risks with characterization and story. We'll have another million more made up, sexless, races, before there's the type of equality that those people are demanding.
I mean, hell, look at Tomb Raider. They're going the distance to make sure we know that a woman's written it, and that an actual woman is doing the voice and motion capture -people are still going to say the game is sexist because there's a possibility of rape around every corner, even if they never code a penis into the game, and she manages to shoot everyone in the groin with an arrow. The preconceived notions that people -be them gamers or the commenters from the outside looking in who think they know whats going on- have aren't going to magically go away because more women want to take the risk and go into game development.
Also, I'll never look at Wolverine's ass the same way again...
If you want games that have females as full characters, look at good Visual Novels like Katawa Shoujo, Fate/Stay Night or Tsukihime. Really likable, well-rounded heroines with very little sexualization.
Katawa Shoujo is free and is in native english, while the other two have translation patches.
If you keep your mind open about what a game really is, you will seriously enjoy these kinds of games.
Katawa Shoujo is free and is in native english, while the other two have translation patches.
If you keep your mind open about what a game really is, you will seriously enjoy these kinds of games.
For the record, I don't think there's anything sexist at all about assuming that a GOOD female writer (as opposed to a shitty writer, or someone who isn't a writer at all) won't bring something to writing a female character that a man either couldn't or likely won't. The experience of BEING a woman is in no way uniform, but they're going to have a unique perspective. Men are going to have a different perspective.
Mainly, if your game is going to involve women, I think your dev team should involve women. Anyone remember the "contraception panel" which included not ONE woman? Same principle. If a woman is involved in any major way in a game's story, then not having some women there to contribute just seems . . . dumb.
However, worth their weight in gold would be a writer/dev team who bucks trends and tropes in games as often as possible, whether they're female OR male. Cracked recently wrote an article that basically tore apart a lot of the prejudiced assumptions that a lot of writers and devs make when creating a story (5 Prejudices That Video Games Can't Seem to Get Over), and I think anyone who is willing to creatively work outside of those is an asset that gaming sorely needs.
But I don't think saying, "More women need to be involved in all phases of gaming" is sexist or implying that all women are somehow the same and would bring the exact same je ne sais quoi to the table. In fact, I think the very thing that would be accomplished by including more women is a variety of experience that creativity in games is currently mostly missing. At least while the proposition of being male vs. female means that you WILL have different experiences almost invariably (since we've yet to be able to eliminate most of the institutionally supported ones), women are going to bring something that men don't. That in no way implies it's something BETTER than what men bring, just that it's different.
Mainly, if your game is going to involve women, I think your dev team should involve women. Anyone remember the "contraception panel" which included not ONE woman? Same principle. If a woman is involved in any major way in a game's story, then not having some women there to contribute just seems . . . dumb.
However, worth their weight in gold would be a writer/dev team who bucks trends and tropes in games as often as possible, whether they're female OR male. Cracked recently wrote an article that basically tore apart a lot of the prejudiced assumptions that a lot of writers and devs make when creating a story (5 Prejudices That Video Games Can't Seem to Get Over), and I think anyone who is willing to creatively work outside of those is an asset that gaming sorely needs.
But I don't think saying, "More women need to be involved in all phases of gaming" is sexist or implying that all women are somehow the same and would bring the exact same je ne sais quoi to the table. In fact, I think the very thing that would be accomplished by including more women is a variety of experience that creativity in games is currently mostly missing. At least while the proposition of being male vs. female means that you WILL have different experiences almost invariably (since we've yet to be able to eliminate most of the institutionally supported ones), women are going to bring something that men don't. That in no way implies it's something BETTER than what men bring, just that it's different.
If you want games that have females as full characters, look at good Visual Novels like Katawa Shoujo, Fate/Stay Night or Tsukihime. Really likable, well-rounded heroines with very little sexualization.
Katawa Shoujo is free and is in native English, while the other two have translation patches.
If you keep your mind open about what a game really is, you will seriously enjoy these kinds of games.
http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/about.php
Prepare for feels.
Katawa Shoujo is free and is in native English, while the other two have translation patches.
If you keep your mind open about what a game really is, you will seriously enjoy these kinds of games.
http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/about.php
Prepare for feels.
"There is nothing in the game, ever, that makes females somehow less than males."
Except for how a man is considered a complete and rounded character when he's just a head, but a woman needs to be showing T&A.
"I think a lot of the criticisms of LC's 'sexism' are really coming from a place where the secret message is sex is bad, sexual attraction is bad, lust is bad."
This is completely ignorant. Just because YOU can't separate your youthful religion from adult concepts of sexuality doesn't mean others can't. And I was NOT raised with a sex-shaming religion, and fully embrace sex, sexuality, and the erotic. This has nothing to do with the act of sex; this is being called sexist because it IS.
"How in the world does that convey that women are less than men?...If you're saying that Juliet Starling is, like Barbie, an impossible ideal that makes women feel bad about their own bodies in comparison well, okay. You have a point there...."
I cannot possibly be the only one who sees the irony in these two statements sitting right next to each other.
"Wolverine's ass makes me feel shitty about my own ass in comparison."
This is not remotely the same.
http://tansyrr.com/tansywp/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/tumblr_lvk8rsh4eC1qkinreo1_500.png
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/05/what-if-male-superheroes-posed-like-wonder-woman-on-the-david-finch-justice-league-cover/
"I believe when characters become symbols of female empowerment it is, in many ways, a reaction to sexism that is sexist in itself"
Man, us ladies sure are lucky to have men explain things to us! We just can't get ANYTHING right on our own. ;______;
"more than worrying about how fictional women are treated in fictional worlds, we should care about how real women are treated in our real world"
Take some responsibility for how you contribute to the hostile climate that discourages women from entering the field. You can't pretend media has no impact on the social mores of those who consume it. You expect to work backwards, to address something you have immediate control over AFTER the women you struggle to silence about this have overcome the sexism we battle daily. YOU have the power to control this, and you're refusing to use it for the betterment of women and society at large. That is a PERSONAL failing, and continuing to blame it entirely on society at large is cowardly.
And for the record: Commodification =/= objectification. Both are often done simultaneously to female characters, so perhaps that's why you're getting confused. Juliet is objectified but not commodified. Nick is commodified but not objectified. For christ's sake, GOOGLE words you don't understand before you go shooting your mouth off.
Except for how a man is considered a complete and rounded character when he's just a head, but a woman needs to be showing T&A.
"I think a lot of the criticisms of LC's 'sexism' are really coming from a place where the secret message is sex is bad, sexual attraction is bad, lust is bad."
This is completely ignorant. Just because YOU can't separate your youthful religion from adult concepts of sexuality doesn't mean others can't. And I was NOT raised with a sex-shaming religion, and fully embrace sex, sexuality, and the erotic. This has nothing to do with the act of sex; this is being called sexist because it IS.
"How in the world does that convey that women are less than men?...If you're saying that Juliet Starling is, like Barbie, an impossible ideal that makes women feel bad about their own bodies in comparison well, okay. You have a point there...."
I cannot possibly be the only one who sees the irony in these two statements sitting right next to each other.
"Wolverine's ass makes me feel shitty about my own ass in comparison."
This is not remotely the same.
http://tansyrr.com/tansywp/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/tumblr_lvk8rsh4eC1qkinreo1_500.png
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/05/what-if-male-superheroes-posed-like-wonder-woman-on-the-david-finch-justice-league-cover/
"I believe when characters become symbols of female empowerment it is, in many ways, a reaction to sexism that is sexist in itself"
Man, us ladies sure are lucky to have men explain things to us! We just can't get ANYTHING right on our own. ;______;
"more than worrying about how fictional women are treated in fictional worlds, we should care about how real women are treated in our real world"
Take some responsibility for how you contribute to the hostile climate that discourages women from entering the field. You can't pretend media has no impact on the social mores of those who consume it. You expect to work backwards, to address something you have immediate control over AFTER the women you struggle to silence about this have overcome the sexism we battle daily. YOU have the power to control this, and you're refusing to use it for the betterment of women and society at large. That is a PERSONAL failing, and continuing to blame it entirely on society at large is cowardly.
And for the record: Commodification =/= objectification. Both are often done simultaneously to female characters, so perhaps that's why you're getting confused. Juliet is objectified but not commodified. Nick is commodified but not objectified. For christ's sake, GOOGLE words you don't understand before you go shooting your mouth off.
Firstly, Gunn, Suda and the rest of the team created something they enjoy, that other people in their target market enjoy. He has no obligation to create something for the betterment of society and he has no obligation to you or your struggles, as real or fictional as they may be.
The main thing about radical feminists is that they don't seem to grasp the concept of marketing and target markets. Lets bring up the award winning topic about how lego is full of misogyny. Yes, lego is totally sexist because they make toys for boys and clearly the boxes all say NO GIRLS ALLOWED all over them. The lego for girls contains more pieces with the color purple because they want to hold women down in society and make them feel less than men. Except that's totally wrong. They make lego that appeals to boys because boys were the main purchasers of their toys, they have no obligation to risk their money to cater to every type of person out there. You think they just thought up "hey, girls like purple and pink so lets make that for them". No, they did market research, which would involve testing and asking little girls about what they'd like in lego. Just because most little girls like pink things or frilly things or like to play house doesn't mean the companies that cater to that market are holding you down and making your life hell so stop being so pissed off about it.
Moving on to wolverine/batman vs wonder woman. They are the way they are for the same reason, they are things the target market wants. The target market wants a hot buff dude so they can pretend that they're the hot buff dude who gets all the chicks and the target market wants to look at hot women. There are people that don't want to read those kind of things and so other comics are made to fill those niche markets. There are other comics that do have characters "built for dexterity" that are targeted towards..gasp...women. Hell, look at every boy band that has existed in the last 20-30 years. You're just butthurt because the market that caters to your wants and needs isn't as large as the market that caters to the needs of young men. Either way, if a buff guy makes you feel like shit as a man or a hot woman makes you feel like shit as a woman you need to stop being such a fucking wimp.
Both sides objectify, just look at romance novels for clear objectification right on the cover. It's fantasy, a little objectification is fine because it's trying to tap into what the person wants but possibly cannot get from reality. Just because some people take it too far doesn't make it inherently wrong. Just like videogame violence isn't spawning violent killers.
People always claim that if you reverse what's happening it becomes awkward. Well of course it does for the target market because it's the opposite of what they want their fantasy to be. But there are people out there who do enjoy the reversal, they're just not a big enough market for people to pay attention to it and claim it's totally destroying society.
As for no women in the workplace because it is so totally poisoned and awful for women. Maybe they're not there because they don't want to devote 90 hours of their weekly life to make something for others. Hell, I'm a guy and I sure as hell don't want to do that. Or maybe it's because even 10 years ago anyone who played video games was looked down upon. Men who did it were mocked, women who did it were mocked. There just happened to be more men who were involved in the hobby. Now that all sorts of people play games you will probably see a shift in the workforce but the damn people who are even old enough to be in the industry still grew up in the hostile environment, one which many women avoided not because men would look down on them but because their peers, other women, would look down on them. They just happened to be more susceptible to peer pressure. When the fuck has a woman playing games ever not been awesome for those who play them and make them? They're surely not discriminating against them, it's a boon for them because they thought they'd never find someone of the opposite gender who could enjoy their hobby. Of course this is now tainted by "nerds are cool" and attention whore crowd which just riles up the immature people who feel the need to spout hateful remarks at those who spurned them. The one place they could avoid the assholes of society was being eroded away and surely there's a lot of deep seated conscious or subconscious hatred bubbling to the surface.
I don't know what the point of my whole rant is, but whatever. If you feel that you are battling sexism on a daily basis maybe you should consider the kind of people you associate with because it sure as fuck isn't as epidemic as you seem to think it is, unless you live in the middle east.
The main thing about radical feminists is that they don't seem to grasp the concept of marketing and target markets. Lets bring up the award winning topic about how lego is full of misogyny. Yes, lego is totally sexist because they make toys for boys and clearly the boxes all say NO GIRLS ALLOWED all over them. The lego for girls contains more pieces with the color purple because they want to hold women down in society and make them feel less than men. Except that's totally wrong. They make lego that appeals to boys because boys were the main purchasers of their toys, they have no obligation to risk their money to cater to every type of person out there. You think they just thought up "hey, girls like purple and pink so lets make that for them". No, they did market research, which would involve testing and asking little girls about what they'd like in lego. Just because most little girls like pink things or frilly things or like to play house doesn't mean the companies that cater to that market are holding you down and making your life hell so stop being so pissed off about it.
Moving on to wolverine/batman vs wonder woman. They are the way they are for the same reason, they are things the target market wants. The target market wants a hot buff dude so they can pretend that they're the hot buff dude who gets all the chicks and the target market wants to look at hot women. There are people that don't want to read those kind of things and so other comics are made to fill those niche markets. There are other comics that do have characters "built for dexterity" that are targeted towards..gasp...women. Hell, look at every boy band that has existed in the last 20-30 years. You're just butthurt because the market that caters to your wants and needs isn't as large as the market that caters to the needs of young men. Either way, if a buff guy makes you feel like shit as a man or a hot woman makes you feel like shit as a woman you need to stop being such a fucking wimp.
Both sides objectify, just look at romance novels for clear objectification right on the cover. It's fantasy, a little objectification is fine because it's trying to tap into what the person wants but possibly cannot get from reality. Just because some people take it too far doesn't make it inherently wrong. Just like videogame violence isn't spawning violent killers.
People always claim that if you reverse what's happening it becomes awkward. Well of course it does for the target market because it's the opposite of what they want their fantasy to be. But there are people out there who do enjoy the reversal, they're just not a big enough market for people to pay attention to it and claim it's totally destroying society.
As for no women in the workplace because it is so totally poisoned and awful for women. Maybe they're not there because they don't want to devote 90 hours of their weekly life to make something for others. Hell, I'm a guy and I sure as hell don't want to do that. Or maybe it's because even 10 years ago anyone who played video games was looked down upon. Men who did it were mocked, women who did it were mocked. There just happened to be more men who were involved in the hobby. Now that all sorts of people play games you will probably see a shift in the workforce but the damn people who are even old enough to be in the industry still grew up in the hostile environment, one which many women avoided not because men would look down on them but because their peers, other women, would look down on them. They just happened to be more susceptible to peer pressure. When the fuck has a woman playing games ever not been awesome for those who play them and make them? They're surely not discriminating against them, it's a boon for them because they thought they'd never find someone of the opposite gender who could enjoy their hobby. Of course this is now tainted by "nerds are cool" and attention whore crowd which just riles up the immature people who feel the need to spout hateful remarks at those who spurned them. The one place they could avoid the assholes of society was being eroded away and surely there's a lot of deep seated conscious or subconscious hatred bubbling to the surface.
I don't know what the point of my whole rant is, but whatever. If you feel that you are battling sexism on a daily basis maybe you should consider the kind of people you associate with because it sure as fuck isn't as epidemic as you seem to think it is, unless you live in the middle east.
All right, I'm back. Only going to deal with a couple things though.
@Shinta - Ah yes, I remember that day where I was remembering that day with me and Wolverine. Thanks for bringing back fond memories.
@Aurain @vakkyman, @brainwasherattendant, @gretthiwa and the left I left out, thanks.
@bunnika - "Except for how a man is considered a complete and rounded character when he's just a head, but a woman needs to be showing T&A." Nick is, in fact, just a head for much of the game. And Juliet does show a lot of T&A. But just because those two things exist, you're conclusion on what those two things MEAN is not within the game - that's completely in your head. There's absolutely no evidence for what you're bringing up. Juliet is a rounded character for more than just her body. As are her sisters, who show almost no T&A. So that message just doesn't exist in the game (I'm guessing you've never played the game, right?)
As for the idea of symbols of female empowerment being a reaction to sexism, and therefore sexist, that isn't originally my idea, but based on the ideas of a New York Times writer, who is female, as well as a few other writers, almost all female. Again, you're making a connection where there isn't one - somehow my statement MEANT that I was saying women can't come up with ideas on their own, which is incorrect. I stated an idea I believe is true. My own sex in and of itself doesn't make that statement mean something other than what the statement is. According to the way you processed that particular thought, every thing a man or woman ever says implies that they are simultaneously saying that the opposite sex isn't able to come up with their own ideas.
I also never said commodification and objectification meant the same thing. Honestly. Never even thought it. Again, you're arguing with a point I never made. Both Juliet and Nick are commodified and objectified in various ways.
As for your other points, I'm sorry, I don't even understand them. Maybe they makes sense in your head, but they don't come out that way in words.
@sshss20 "Suda and the rest of the team created..."? HUH? You realize I WROTE the game and every single word that Juliet and Nick and the rest of the characters said, right? What in the world are you talking about?
@Shinta - Ah yes, I remember that day where I was remembering that day with me and Wolverine. Thanks for bringing back fond memories.
@Aurain @vakkyman, @brainwasherattendant, @gretthiwa and the left I left out, thanks.
@bunnika - "Except for how a man is considered a complete and rounded character when he's just a head, but a woman needs to be showing T&A." Nick is, in fact, just a head for much of the game. And Juliet does show a lot of T&A. But just because those two things exist, you're conclusion on what those two things MEAN is not within the game - that's completely in your head. There's absolutely no evidence for what you're bringing up. Juliet is a rounded character for more than just her body. As are her sisters, who show almost no T&A. So that message just doesn't exist in the game (I'm guessing you've never played the game, right?)
As for the idea of symbols of female empowerment being a reaction to sexism, and therefore sexist, that isn't originally my idea, but based on the ideas of a New York Times writer, who is female, as well as a few other writers, almost all female. Again, you're making a connection where there isn't one - somehow my statement MEANT that I was saying women can't come up with ideas on their own, which is incorrect. I stated an idea I believe is true. My own sex in and of itself doesn't make that statement mean something other than what the statement is. According to the way you processed that particular thought, every thing a man or woman ever says implies that they are simultaneously saying that the opposite sex isn't able to come up with their own ideas.
I also never said commodification and objectification meant the same thing. Honestly. Never even thought it. Again, you're arguing with a point I never made. Both Juliet and Nick are commodified and objectified in various ways.
As for your other points, I'm sorry, I don't even understand them. Maybe they makes sense in your head, but they don't come out that way in words.
@sshss20 "Suda and the rest of the team created..."? HUH? You realize I WROTE the game and every single word that Juliet and Nick and the rest of the characters said, right? What in the world are you talking about?
Being sexy is not sexism.
Name me one single game that you play as an ugly fatass, whether it be male or female. Having trouble? Video games portray almost all actual characters as at least attractive. People like playing as attractive people. It's pretty simple.
Society, not video games, and not just 14 year old boys, as a whole has different ideals of what is attractive for a man and a woman. Most men in video games come packed with a full 6 pack, often some kind of facial hair that most women would deem attractive, probably less than 1% body fat, perfect non-balding hair, muscular without looking like a musclehead, and a tight ass. That's what society sees as attractive.
For a women, it's big breasts, a tight ass, skimpy clothing, very little if any fat, long, often blonde hair, and the willingness to show all of it off very often.
That's what society as it is today views as attractive. You can't change it, don't even fucking try. You can't influence it. You can't resist it. It's just what it is. Complaining about it doesn't change anything.
Is that objectifying? Yes, of course. But human beings are sexual, we like looking at big breasts and 6 packs. Would you go out with a guy who weighed 500 pounds? Even if he was the nicest, funniest, most outgoing positive guy in the world, most people would reject that. It's how our brains work. We look for these attractive things.
But it's not all people look for. Having a full six pack will get you plenty of one night stands, but unless you're a decent person overall, you're aren't going to get in a real relationship. Why do celebrity relationships fail so often?
Objectifying and attraction is short term, having a good personality and being charismatic and just being a nice person is long term. As other people have mentioned before, sure, maybe some people did buy the game to look at Juliet's ass. But if the actual gameplay was shit, it wouldn't have sold nearly as many copies. Shallow sex appeal will never be as good as good gameplay.
Name me one single game that you play as an ugly fatass, whether it be male or female. Having trouble? Video games portray almost all actual characters as at least attractive. People like playing as attractive people. It's pretty simple.
Society, not video games, and not just 14 year old boys, as a whole has different ideals of what is attractive for a man and a woman. Most men in video games come packed with a full 6 pack, often some kind of facial hair that most women would deem attractive, probably less than 1% body fat, perfect non-balding hair, muscular without looking like a musclehead, and a tight ass. That's what society sees as attractive.
For a women, it's big breasts, a tight ass, skimpy clothing, very little if any fat, long, often blonde hair, and the willingness to show all of it off very often.
That's what society as it is today views as attractive. You can't change it, don't even fucking try. You can't influence it. You can't resist it. It's just what it is. Complaining about it doesn't change anything.
Is that objectifying? Yes, of course. But human beings are sexual, we like looking at big breasts and 6 packs. Would you go out with a guy who weighed 500 pounds? Even if he was the nicest, funniest, most outgoing positive guy in the world, most people would reject that. It's how our brains work. We look for these attractive things.
But it's not all people look for. Having a full six pack will get you plenty of one night stands, but unless you're a decent person overall, you're aren't going to get in a real relationship. Why do celebrity relationships fail so often?
Objectifying and attraction is short term, having a good personality and being charismatic and just being a nice person is long term. As other people have mentioned before, sure, maybe some people did buy the game to look at Juliet's ass. But if the actual gameplay was shit, it wouldn't have sold nearly as many copies. Shallow sex appeal will never be as good as good gameplay.
@James Gunn
"The story stuff, the relationship and commodification through-lines, their personalities and dialogue, that was my addition."
I was talking about the game as a whole, I know you wrote the script. Did you completely design the characters, did you determine the length of Juliet's skirt? Did you design and implement the attack moves that show off her bloomers? Did you design every cutscene that shows off her abs or thighs? Did you propose all the sexy poses she makes or the costumes that are purely fan service? Clearly other people worked on the game. The game is not just yours nor is the supposed sexism in the game limited to the dialogue of the characters.
"The story stuff, the relationship and commodification through-lines, their personalities and dialogue, that was my addition."
I was talking about the game as a whole, I know you wrote the script. Did you completely design the characters, did you determine the length of Juliet's skirt? Did you design and implement the attack moves that show off her bloomers? Did you design every cutscene that shows off her abs or thighs? Did you propose all the sexy poses she makes or the costumes that are purely fan service? Clearly other people worked on the game. The game is not just yours nor is the supposed sexism in the game limited to the dialogue of the characters.
Hi James. This has nothing to do with the article, but just wanted to say thank you for Slither. I'd probably bow to you if I saw you in public.
@solidturtleman
Have fun with your imaginary, non existent quote of something that I've never said.
"I'll stop making assumptions when..."
No, no. That's not how it works, kid. Do they not have debate club at your high school? Unless you go out of your way to look like an unintelligent, incapable child on the internet who has no concept of logical fallacies or how to debate and argue with someone who doesn't believe what you believe, my advice is simple: stop assuming.
Have fun with your imaginary, non existent quote of something that I've never said.
"I'll stop making assumptions when..."
No, no. That's not how it works, kid. Do they not have debate club at your high school? Unless you go out of your way to look like an unintelligent, incapable child on the internet who has no concept of logical fallacies or how to debate and argue with someone who doesn't believe what you believe, my advice is simple: stop assuming.
Although I've yet to actually play the game, based off of the videos and articles about the game that I've seen, it never really seemed like a good target for the whole "women in video-games" debate. Most people arguing against Lollipop Chainsaw seem to be equating sexualization with objectification, and ignoring the fact that the game doesn't even take itself too seriously.
I don't know, just doesn't really seem like the best game for this discussion to be focused on. (Although again, I've yet to actually play it.)
Half of Gunn's arguments are kind of sound like him side-stepping the problem, but the other half are actually pretty reasonable.
I don't know, just doesn't really seem like the best game for this discussion to be focused on. (Although again, I've yet to actually play it.)
Half of Gunn's arguments are kind of sound like him side-stepping the problem, but the other half are actually pretty reasonable.
I feel like I need to buy this game now that I understand some more of the motivations behind it, just to help support these guys.
@James
"you're [sic] conclusion on what those two things MEAN is not within the game - that's completely in your head."
It's in the culture of female objectification and subjugation. It just seems that YOUR head can't quite grasp that concept.
"somehow my statement MEANT that I was saying women can't come up with ideas on their own"
No. That's not even my IMPLICATION, let alone my statement. My statement regarded the ego it takes to declare yourself more able to determine female symbols of empowerment than actual women. And that was based off of a *direct quote* from you, so either you said it, or you were misquoted and should be attacking Sterling and not me.
"Both Juliet and Nick are commodified and objectified in various ways."
The fact that you're saying this proves that you don't know what objectification is. Here, I'll help: http://goo.gl/sjYbP
"As for your other points, I'm sorry, I don't even understand them."
Because you're too busy scrambling to prove how not-sexist you are that you can't be bothered to listen to an actual woman speaking about the realities of sexism that you CLEARLY can't grasp through your thick haze of male privilege. You SHOULD be sorry, yet somehow I doubt that was sincere.
"Maybe they makes sense in your head, but they don't come out that way in words."
Am I speaking above your grade level? Because snarky condescension this thick sure as hell reads as 9th grade bullshit. Either interact with consumers respectfully, or don't interact at all. This is not how you drive sales, this is nothing but an ego trip.
"you're [sic] conclusion on what those two things MEAN is not within the game - that's completely in your head."
It's in the culture of female objectification and subjugation. It just seems that YOUR head can't quite grasp that concept.
"somehow my statement MEANT that I was saying women can't come up with ideas on their own"
No. That's not even my IMPLICATION, let alone my statement. My statement regarded the ego it takes to declare yourself more able to determine female symbols of empowerment than actual women. And that was based off of a *direct quote* from you, so either you said it, or you were misquoted and should be attacking Sterling and not me.
"Both Juliet and Nick are commodified and objectified in various ways."
The fact that you're saying this proves that you don't know what objectification is. Here, I'll help: http://goo.gl/sjYbP
"As for your other points, I'm sorry, I don't even understand them."
Because you're too busy scrambling to prove how not-sexist you are that you can't be bothered to listen to an actual woman speaking about the realities of sexism that you CLEARLY can't grasp through your thick haze of male privilege. You SHOULD be sorry, yet somehow I doubt that was sincere.
"Maybe they makes sense in your head, but they don't come out that way in words."
Am I speaking above your grade level? Because snarky condescension this thick sure as hell reads as 9th grade bullshit. Either interact with consumers respectfully, or don't interact at all. This is not how you drive sales, this is nothing but an ego trip.
I will say the reactionary attitude of gamers has gradually taken its' toll on my psyche. Not to the point I'm scribbling on walls & talking gibberish but to the point it's gotten more difficult for me to define what "sexism" is as opposed to what's simply "sexy". (Everyone seems to have a different viewpoint on these two words)
Personally, I don't see Lollipop chainsaw as sexist. Beyond that it's satirical in nature so taking it too seriously seems to be missing the point somehow.
Btw, I enjoyed Super! However, watching Ellen Paige's character get her head blown off was a little much for me. I realize "why" it was done (To show donning a super hero identity & becoming a vigilante is a dangerous line of work) but I'm a pansy!
Personally, I don't see Lollipop chainsaw as sexist. Beyond that it's satirical in nature so taking it too seriously seems to be missing the point somehow.
Btw, I enjoyed Super! However, watching Ellen Paige's character get her head blown off was a little much for me. I realize "why" it was done (To show donning a super hero identity & becoming a vigilante is a dangerous line of work) but I'm a pansy!
eh, can't really help that I like games and have a penis, would be the same way if I had a vagina only I would be getting gifts more frequently from guys who realize that there are "girlz on the internetz"
James Gunn is so full of shit, he needs an enema to clear his head.
He's your typical pseudo-feminist, who believes that putting a male in an objectified situation along with a woman somehow makes the objectification go away.
When ads for the game include the implication of a Jessica Nigri sex bot? Guess what Gunn, your game is sexist. Women buy the game? So what? The game wasn't marketed to them.
All this talk of equal opportunity objectification, and deeper meanings, falls flat, when every person you rescue says things like: "I'm gonna jerk off to you tonight" and "I never thought I'd be rescued by someone with blah blah blah TITS!"
The fact is, James, you're a condescending douche who talks out his ass about issues you fail to understand. You're so arrogant, that you believe you have the right to tell women what they should consider sexism!
Coming from a guy who blogs lame ass garbage like "Which comic book women I'd like to F***". That's a bold move.
The game was fun, but not because of you. LC was fun in SPITE of your laddish, base humor. The fact that your wit drains out of you the moment you're approached with an intelligent argument, and you need to resort to lazy condescension, only deadens your position.
If you were anyone else, you'd be a creepy loser. Somehow you've attained good connections, and people for unfathomable reasons, think you're hilarious.
He's your typical pseudo-feminist, who believes that putting a male in an objectified situation along with a woman somehow makes the objectification go away.
When ads for the game include the implication of a Jessica Nigri sex bot? Guess what Gunn, your game is sexist. Women buy the game? So what? The game wasn't marketed to them.
All this talk of equal opportunity objectification, and deeper meanings, falls flat, when every person you rescue says things like: "I'm gonna jerk off to you tonight" and "I never thought I'd be rescued by someone with blah blah blah TITS!"
The fact is, James, you're a condescending douche who talks out his ass about issues you fail to understand. You're so arrogant, that you believe you have the right to tell women what they should consider sexism!
Coming from a guy who blogs lame ass garbage like "Which comic book women I'd like to F***". That's a bold move.
The game was fun, but not because of you. LC was fun in SPITE of your laddish, base humor. The fact that your wit drains out of you the moment you're approached with an intelligent argument, and you need to resort to lazy condescension, only deadens your position.
If you were anyone else, you'd be a creepy loser. Somehow you've attained good connections, and people for unfathomable reasons, think you're hilarious.
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