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LittleBigPlanet getting moderated without warning: So much for creative freedom photo

If you're a big fan of user levels in LittleBigPlanet, the advice of the day seems to be this -- don't get too attached to them. Reports have been coming in of levels being "moderated" without warning. That's a polite way of saying they're getting deleted, and users are not being given the courtesy of an explanation.

The main issue seems to be over copyrighted material -- which kind of cuts the scope of what players can do in half, really. Levels based on Metal Gear Solid or Sonic the Hedgehog are being taken down, even if they merely contain a few items based upon the IP. Once a level is deleted, you can't even just take out the offending items and republish. The level's gone, and you have to start over from scratch. Great news for people who spent an hour or so crafting something.

The copyright issue is fair enough, but it seems that users were not told this before they wasted their time. One player claims that even his level based on the PlayStation 3 was deleted. If a PS3-exclusive game can't even allow assets from its own platform ... that's a bit demented. The moderation is also inconsistent, with other copyright-breaking levels remaining completely untouched. Moderators are apparently looking into providing more feedback when deleting people's work, but that hasn't helped the people who've been screwed over so far.

This is a pretty sad issue, and seemingly one in a long line of problems associated with LBP. While it's true that Media Molecule can't be blamed for oppressive copyright, it kind of shows just how much of a problem user generated content is going to have on consoles. Using completely copyright-free assets for LBP is actually a pretty decimating limitation when you think about how much you can't do. If this is the way things are to be for console games of this nature, it looks like the PC modding scene has nothing to worry about.


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74 comments | showing # 1 to 50

Spectreman's Avatar
Spectreman at 11/09/2008 06:02
* If a level canīt be republished, even without the copyright itens, itīs a cold water in efforts to spend much time creating anything. Almost all the great levels created by the people have any grey-copyright item.
Acefowl's Avatar
Acefowl at 11/09/2008 06:02
I'm curious what would happen if someone released a stage based on his or her own copyrighted material, and it got banned. What kind of stink could be raised?
Zantetsuken's Avatar
Zantetsuken at 11/09/2008 06:05
I really don't see the problem with including a level which "infringes on copyright". Its not like they are making any money off using other companies copyrighted material.

Does that mean that the Akira bike has gone too? ;_;
Mxyzptlk's Avatar
Mxyzptlk at 11/09/2008 06:28
I'm pretty sure I recall reading in a preview that stages using copywritten material would indeed be moderated, but giving no warning and not allowing users to re-edit the levels is extremely weak. Understandable they have to take some action, but this is a lousy way to do it.
Ianki's Avatar
Ianki at 11/09/2008 06:48
hah, would you feel better if they were also removing levels containing cartoonish penetration that my friend's 8 year old son would probably enjoy just a little too much?

The truth of the matter is, that hosting levels that contain copyright material puts them in a precarious legal position, as i don't know if you could argue that all of these levels fall under fair use. However, a policy a little closer to youtube's model, which i believe only takes down videos that have been targeted by the IP owners or have been served DMCA take-down orders, might have been a little preferable.
kevinski's Avatar
kevinski at 11/09/2008 07:11
Yeah, it kinda sucks that creative freedom is being limited, but does every damn game with user-generated content need a fucking Mario-themed level? Give me a break. If anything, MM's just giving creativity a nudge in the right direction, forcing users to create ORIGINAL content.
Coldbrand's Avatar
Coldbrand at 11/09/2008 07:18
I remember way back at some E3 when they were saying users were free to do what they pleased. It's always bullshit.
Kakihara_The_Killer's Avatar
Kakihara_The_Killer at 11/09/2008 07:22
damn it. It feels like Sony wants to fail. This was there big game of 09 and 2 weeks out of the gate they are permanently deleting peoples creations at will!?
Joe Burling's Avatar
Joe Burling at 11/09/2008 07:36
it's not just LBP doing this. GHWT is doing the same thing.

Basically, don't make anything offensive or that contains any copyright material. What does that leave though? How many calculators are people going to make before moving on to something else.

No wonder MS didn't want mods in UT3! It would have been a waste of time.
nicojay's Avatar
nicojay at 11/09/2008 07:45
Creative freedom with others copyrighted material.
Think aboout it.
RAPEGAME's Avatar
RAPEGAME at 11/09/2008 07:48
I bet if you read the EULA it will say something about this. Could have saved yourself alot of time by reading the license agreement
OrangeMango's Avatar
OrangeMango at 11/09/2008 07:52
So what if Miyamato made a Wii stage? Or Steven Spielberg made an E.T. stage? It is their own copyright, after all ;-;
Y0j1mb0's Avatar
Y0j1mb0 at 11/09/2008 07:55
OMG. Little Big Planet has been rendered garbage now. Time to return my copy.
eternalplayer2345's Avatar
eternalplayer2345 at 11/09/2008 08:07
At least we can have our bonerquest lever, also I feel bad for the gradius dude.
ExpertPenguin's Avatar
ExpertPenguin at 11/09/2008 08:14
I might be wrong, but..don't the copyrights for things expire after two decades or so?

..and as such, wouldn't a level based on the first SMB be fair game?
faultymoose's Avatar
faultymoose at 11/09/2008 08:34
I dunno how much of this is accurate, and how much hyperbole. I've seen 'official' responses on a number of related forums, where the moderation issue has been clearly explained by a MM rep.

It does come down to a legal concern, but also one of maintaining the right rating (where 'adult' content is allowed to remain freely accessible, this can cause ratings issues).

From what's been said, the lack of feedback to accidental infringers is merely due to the overwhelming number of custom levels coming online in the release period, with one rep on the boardsus.playstation forum mentioning that levels are on a 24 hour backlog, and that efforts will be made to inform the infringer about exactly what it was they infringed upon.

This seems like a bit of a mountain out of a molehill.
faultymoose's Avatar
faultymoose at 11/09/2008 08:38
And as for "Using completely copyright-free assets for LBP is actually a pretty decimating limitation", I think we should have some more faith in the creative abilities of the community. Personally, I'd like to see some original content, instead of the same regurgitations of existing IP over and over again every time a new product supports user created content.

Also, as an addendum to my last post, I didn't mean to accuse you of using hyperbole, Jim. Not you :P
faultymoose's Avatar
faultymoose at 11/09/2008 08:40
@ ExpertPenguin:

I believe it's 70 years after the copyright owner's death.
Alexradl's Avatar
Alexradl at 11/09/2008 08:45
Wow, that sucks. There were a lot of great levels that are just going to end up being deleted. More than half the levels I've played were based on copyrighted material.
RonBurgandy2010's Avatar
RonBurgandy2010 at 11/09/2008 08:51
Guess my penis level is going to be edited.
superezekiel's Avatar
superezekiel at 11/09/2008 09:02
So we can't make what is essentially fan-art?

How fantastic.
Holyetheline's Avatar
Holyetheline at 11/09/2008 09:02
But what about the Gradius level?
WarZombie's Avatar
WarZombie at 11/09/2008 09:20
All the problems this game has faced since launch is just so depressing. If it isn't one thing, it's another completely different thing with this game.

As someone said before, now it's understandable that MS didn't wants user-mods in UT3. But then again, Halo 3's Forge content doesn't get this much moderation, and if you applied the logic they're using to moderate LBP's content, then you could say that Bungie should delete all the remakes of all their old maps that people are creating using Forge.

It just doesn't make sense. You shouldn't just delete at will with no warning beforehand. That's just not polite.

Those <i>bastards</i>
dgschrei's Avatar
dgschrei at 11/09/2008 09:34
@faultymoose
Exactly. Which means that you can not incorporate any copyrighted material where the owner did not die before 1938.
I would say this is rather limiting, seeing that in this time film hardly had taken the step towards color, there is not much to rely on.
Then there is the chance that you might infringe on a copyright by accident, simply because your creation is too similar too someone else's even though you didn't know that it existed.
That's what happened to Nintendo when they where sued for their Donkey Kong character because Universal thought it was a ripoff if King Kong. The Courts finally decided in favour of Nintendo and declared King Kong open domain, which is the only other way copyrighted material can become open domain.
Jim Sterling's Avatar
Jim Sterling at 11/09/2008 09:41
"I would say this is rather limiting, seeing that in this time film hardly had taken the step towards color, there is not much to rely on.
Then there is the chance that you might infringe on a copyright by accident, simply because your creation is too similar too someone else's even though you didn't know that it existed."

Exactly. The only way you can 100% guarantee that you won't get deleted is if you handcraft every single asset yourself, or use only the toys that Media Molecule provides.

And frankly, a whole lot of people will want to use their favorite films, shows and games. It is more limiting than I think some people are giving it credit for.
vrplumber's Avatar
vrplumber at 11/09/2008 10:07
@RonBurgandy2010

You had your penis copyrighted? :)
faultymoose's Avatar
faultymoose at 11/09/2008 10:09
@Jim:

It's limiting if you wish to make an homage to something you enjoy, sure. But what percentage of your imagination is limited to ripping stuff straight out of copyrighted material?

Copyright only exists for the representation of an idea, not the idea itself. I'm still in favor of content which demonstrates originality, or at the very least, taking appropriated content and retextualising it in a way that says "inspiration" rather than "plagiarism". Not for any ethical reason, but because I find it more inspirational myself to see a well crafted original work, than a technically impressive copy.

MM are definitely being heavy handed about it, and I don't think it's necessary to this extent. But I have seen cases of Cease and Desist notices being issued to members of the homebrew modding community, and I'd guess MM are just drawing the line to avoid that possibility.

Paranoid? Yes. Draconian? Hardly.
scsitransfer's Avatar
scsitransfer at 11/09/2008 10:29
What's the real problem here Does media molecule think that because I play a level recreating a super Mario world level that the Wii suddenly stops printing money? never, no offense to sack boy but he could never replace super Mario world if i wanted super Mario world. There's just something about playing something familiar with different light. I remember loving to play halo maps on ut2k4 with halo vehicles even, The same designs with different mechanics. It doesn't replace the original just makes something familiar fresh again.
Jim Sterling's Avatar
Jim Sterling at 11/09/2008 10:29
"It's limiting if you wish to make an homage to something you enjoy, sure. But what percentage of your imagination is limited to ripping stuff straight out of copyrighted material?"

We're not talking about MY imagination, though. Think of the average consumer, and what they will want to do. Let's face it, the vast majority of LBP users are not going to want to create their own 100% original stuff. They'll want Mario, they'll want Sonic, they'll want some level where you're bouncing on the cast of Frasier. They won't want that one.

This is limiting. It's not Draconian insofar as it not really being MM's fault. It is, however, very limiting and I think that a lot of users will be disappointed.
Slick Icarus's Avatar
Slick Icarus at 11/09/2008 10:42
I knew it was going to happen. Let's face it; if Media Molecule wasn't doing anything about this, sooner or later they'd get sued. That's just how it goes. Same with GH:WT pulling down their copyrighted songs; if they weren't, the RIAA would have a field day.

On the bright side, maybe we'll see less boring Super Mario Bros. 1-1 remakes and more creative original levels. Yes, it sucks, but it's just how the world works: you copy something without permission, you get sued. Besides, if the rumors of FFVII and MGS themed LBP levels are true, Sony doesn't want sales being diverted to free user made levels, do they? It's business.
DinnertimeNinja's Avatar
DinnertimeNinja at 11/09/2008 10:49
"A long line of problems associated with LBP?"

What game have YOU been playing?

The servers were supposedly down at one point but it must have been for a very short period of time because I've been playing nearly every day and haven't hit one second of downtime. What else has gone wrong with the game?

Though I DO agree that a different approach needs to be made in this situation. Like someone said, allowing content that isn't asked to be taken down by an outside publisher (ie. the Youtube model) should work just fine. Also, there's got to be a way where the developers can just "kick" the level back onto the user's system so that it's not available online. Or at least 24 hour notice of the problem and a way to do so on your own.

I can't imagine how cheated you'd feel after putting so much work in and seeing it disappear completely.

As it stands, I would recommend everyone save TWO versions of everything they create to their system. One published, one not. That way, if the published one gets booted, you're not screwed.
Jim Sterling's Avatar
Jim Sterling at 11/09/2008 10:56
DinnertimeNinja:

I think delays, controversy over the Muslim thing, glitch complaints and server downtime make for a pretty notable list.

I'm not having a go at the game, either. I think it's a damn shame that the PS3's biggest title this year has become associated with some overshadowing issues.
Emrah's Avatar
Emrah at 11/09/2008 11:05
This is a bit depressing. After all, if someone makes a sonic level, that level won't compete with Sonic sales; for what it's worth, it's free advertisement for Sonic. If someone makes a batman theme, the level won't compete sales for a batman game, or sales of the movie on DVD, it is again free advertisement. It is called god damned fair use. Also, FAIR USE.

Sony should not be taking down levels for which an official complaint is not filed..
ParaParaKing's Avatar
ParaParaKing at 11/09/2008 11:08
I'm pretty sure Sony cannot delete your levels from your HDD.
Also recreating other video games isn't exactly creative freedom. Anybody who expected those to stay was way too optimistic.
dprime's Avatar
dprime at 11/09/2008 11:11
"Creative freedom" lol. I love our spoiled age where being allowed to use someone else's platform however you like is considered a part of "creative freedom."
GohanGVO's Avatar
GohanGVO at 11/09/2008 11:25
While I am all for original levels and whatnot, I think having these Mario and Sonic homages are necessary for many folks. Why? Those are recognizable and memorable baseline standards.

By building off of a known quantity, the level manipulation process becomes much less daunting due to a design already being in place. Once the tools are mastered to a competent degree, then the imagination can start to flow.

Truth be told, you could learn the ropes offline to avoid the sackhammer. Just hope that your original creations are original enough.
Conan-san's Avatar
Conan-san at 11/09/2008 11:58
And, once again, the PS3 has NO games.
Poopface Morty's Avatar
Poopface Morty at 11/09/2008 12:03
HOLY SHIT. Users actually have to come up with original content?! Good fucking god, what is going to happen now!? In all seriousness, this kind of bitching and moaning really displays the lack of creativity from people who claim to be cultured and creative and all of that fun, pretentious stuff.

While I agree with the way it is being handled is a dick move, without warning and etc., I'm not all surprised that when this stuff is distributed online it is getting pulled. Let the users keep it on their own systems if they insist, just not distribute it.
kissgz's Avatar
kissgz at 11/09/2008 12:26
Jim Sterling: "I'm not having a go at the game, either. I think it's a damn shame that the PS3's biggest title this year has become associated with some overshadowing issues."

No. You're not having a go because you convinced yourself that the game's crap. It's not about "some overshadowing issues", it's about your "theory" that you let the creatives / pro game designers do the designing for you. You're not interested, no problem. It's your decision, but don't cheat on yourself.

On topic: just checked it 5 minutes ago, the game's fine -- the Mirror's Edge level, the Sweep Child of Mine one, they're there. Even the Shadow of the Colossus level. Slow day huh?
Cowboy TTop's Avatar
Cowboy TTop at 11/09/2008 12:30
Dear oh dear, when will you learn, Sony.

This is why copyright stuff is such a pain. Despite that though, Sony should have given creators fair warning before deleting their work. They'd have to find the said levels first before deleting, which should have all the users info attached, so they have no excuse for not sending out an email to everyone.

Giving all creators a month to adjust their levels would have been a good option to correct any problems. However, Sony, despite being japanese, they don't like us enough to do so. Fuck em.

Perhaps this will all be a true test of user created content on consoles, and another example of why PCs will always be the king of game creation.
Jim Sterling's Avatar
Jim Sterling at 11/09/2008 12:35
"This is a non-story."

Your armchair blogging is appreciated.
Timmeh's Avatar
Timmeh at 11/09/2008 12:55
I don't see the problem, it isn't like anyone was making a profit from it... Oh, but then Media Molecule and the owner of a property wouldn't want to have to put some effort into creating high quality DLC people want when they can just ban any related user stuff and give people no alternative. I'm going to assume that was the motivating factor.
solidgoomba's Avatar
solidgoomba at 11/09/2008 13:14
While I can understand where the people who are saying "oh noes, now you have to be original" are coming from I also have to say that there is creativity in recreating levels and such based on other IPs within the constraints of the tools given to you.

As any levels in LBP are not the same as the actual product I see them in the same way I do fanart. I almost feel as if any company is going to bitch about having a homage to their IP in LBP they should also start going after DeviantArt users with fan drawings or fanfic of their IPs.
pagancollective's Avatar
pagancollective at 11/09/2008 13:20
Anyone who calls this a non-story is blinded by the Sony lights.
Corak's Avatar
Corak at 11/09/2008 13:23
This is what I was worried about. I was going to try and craft a Simpsons or Family Guy level of some kind. But if its going to get yanked and completly deleted, shit I might not even bother now. I see it as more of an homage, or tribute than anything else. Yes I know copyright laws, I get it, but man if you're going to moderate this, then you might as well stop what goomba said about the fanart stuff. That's what I see it as, fan art.
Spectreman's Avatar
Spectreman at 11/09/2008 13:28
* Funny how the openning of game show people dreaming. Seems that you canīt dream with your favorites movies, games etc.
itashy's Avatar
itashy at 11/09/2008 13:30
hmm i have a smallville and zelda level but my random color pop level got moderated...
Arttemis's Avatar
Arttemis at 11/09/2008 13:40
This is beyond ridiculous. According to the Library of Yale's definition of free use, this kind of content has absolutely no reason to be taken down.
There is no means of charging for this content, nor does it affect the market of the influencing "intellectual property".

What's even more ridiculous is that Sony themselves was handing out contest prizes to levels based on games such as Shadows of the Colossus - yet now there are 11+ pages of complaints of people being unable to use Sonic or MGS inspired material.

If Media Molecule were to allow players to actually DOWNLOAD other people's levels to their hard drive and store them indefinitely, then people would still be able to share their levels with their friends without the fear of instant-deletion.
For a console that has so much more freedom than the 360 (non-proprietary hard drives or $100 network adapter, ability to install your own OS, more robust codec support, etc), these restrictions are absurd.
Arttemis's Avatar
Arttemis at 11/09/2008 13:45
@Arttemis - Typo. I meant "fair use".
Arttemis's Avatar
Arttemis at 11/09/2008 13:49
FURTHERMORE, they're going to be charging everyone for Solid Snake and Sephiroth themed sackboy bullshit skins!?!?!?
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