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I consider games on the exact same artistic level as other mediums such as films, and novels. All of them contain violence, and/or controversial activities that we may or may not agree with.
But they are fiction: and just like we all have opinions on whether or not the material is offensive, the creator had an opinion as well.
Great blog.
But they are fiction: and just like we all have opinions on whether or not the material is offensive, the creator had an opinion as well.
Great blog.
I agree with you, and I've used the "It's just a game" line before. Now, the thought of that bothers me, because I've been able to accept that games can be more than just fun. When other people use that line, it makes me think that people underappreciate the medium. The fun factor is important, and is the most crucial aspect of a game when I play it, but that's not all that I look for. Even when I'm not actively engaging in a game, like watching a cutscene, I'm still enjoying it. When something that imnvokes deep emotional response, no matter what it may be, I still enjoy it, becuase I know I'm getting something out of that experience. I'd like to think that fun is more complex than most assume. In other words, the moment one is partaking does not have to be pleasant to be enjoyable.
That seems to be the case with the now infamous MW2 terrorist scene. Sure, it's not something one would involve oneself on a moral basis, but that doesn't stop MW2 from being an overall enoyable game, nor should keep us from discussing it on an intellectual level.
That seems to be the case with the now infamous MW2 terrorist scene. Sure, it's not something one would involve oneself on a moral basis, but that doesn't stop MW2 from being an overall enoyable game, nor should keep us from discussing it on an intellectual level.
Good show.
Firstly, I would argue that "It's just a game" can be used in certain circumstances
Secondly, the same could be said about the internet. There are the "Lolz NEVER TAKE THE INTERNET SRSLY" people and the "SRS FKN BSNS" people. I treat it with the same seriousness I treat normal life, even there I'm not all "SRS FKN BSNS".
Firstly, I would argue that "It's just a game" can be used in certain circumstances
Secondly, the same could be said about the internet. There are the "Lolz NEVER TAKE THE INTERNET SRSLY" people and the "SRS FKN BSNS" people. I treat it with the same seriousness I treat normal life, even there I'm not all "SRS FKN BSNS".
I fapped you. (Does that sound wrong?)
Yeah, I agree with Magnalon here, they're just as artistic as films and books. Also, I've never really understood why games are critized for being too violent whilst films can literally get away with anything. It makes no sense to me.
I expect this to be promoted soon!
Yeah, I agree with Magnalon here, they're just as artistic as films and books. Also, I've never really understood why games are critized for being too violent whilst films can literally get away with anything. It makes no sense to me.
I expect this to be promoted soon!
Sorry for the triple post, ignore the first post which was copy pasta from my computer science homework. >_>
Listen, Mr. Voice of Reason -- If we moderate our opinions by duly considering the opposing viewpoint then the terrorists win. Even if you're playing as a secret agent undercover as a terrorist. The serect agent in this scenario would be pretending to be a winner.
On a more sober note, it is easily possible to have spirited discussion and even fundamental disagreement about gaming while maintaining mutual respect. It's blanket statements that show a total lack of perspective that make me tip-toe around some conversation threads and abstain from commenting. Discussion requires give and take. If I wanted to be proselytized to, I've got Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knocking down the door to spout at me without hearing what I have to contribute.
On a more sober note, it is easily possible to have spirited discussion and even fundamental disagreement about gaming while maintaining mutual respect. It's blanket statements that show a total lack of perspective that make me tip-toe around some conversation threads and abstain from commenting. Discussion requires give and take. If I wanted to be proselytized to, I've got Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knocking down the door to spout at me without hearing what I have to contribute.
Hey, fun is serious business here. This is a good write up, it almost tempts me to say something like "hey, it's only games your talking about" to undermine all your hard efforts. But no, you had to add in all of those things like "explanations" and "logic" resulting in my comment just looking stupid.
Well played.
Well played.
Damnit, DaedHead, with that first comment you sent me off on a wild goose chase trying to piece together the last letter of every sentence to form some ingenious message. Or whatever, I don't know, I read the comment quickly. I wouldn't put it past Kauza, though.
What the hell is gendgttshle?!
What the hell is gendgttshle?!
Hahaha, I should start writing insane hidden messages into all of my blogs. It'll be some Da Vinci Code shit, straight up.
Kauza... I love you. I haven't logged into dtoid for a while, did do my daily browsing of course though, but this made me click the log in button just because I wanted to say that I love you. With all the crap that's going on all the time in the interwebz I don't even feel like digging through it just to find the few juicy bits anymore, but I always know that whenever you have a new blog up, it's going to be worth it. So thanks man, keep writing stuff.
Fapped.
I was pretty disappointed by the comments in Brad's MW2 story (and hell, most MW2 stories in general). You can disagree with Brad (I certainly do), but there's no need to be rude.
I was pretty disappointed by the comments in Brad's MW2 story (and hell, most MW2 stories in general). You can disagree with Brad (I certainly do), but there's no need to be rude.
@Joseph: It's probably pretty thinly veiled that I'm referring to that post at one point in my blog. I'm with you. I don't feel the same as Brad, and I think it's great that people disagreed with him. But the way that some people went about it was, as you said, disappointing.
It's something that has been on my mind for a while, and some recent posts (not just Brad's) made me unable to resist writing this blog.
It's something that has been on my mind for a while, and some recent posts (not just Brad's) made me unable to resist writing this blog.
The statement "It's only a game," should only apply to actions or events which force you to suspend your disbelief, as games (or any other medium) shouldn't have to restrict themselves to the rules of reality.
To say that same thing about an action or event in a game, which is attempting to evoke deeper feelings or implications, marginalizes gaming as a whole. You are basically saying that gaming in unable to attempt expression beyond basic entertainment.
To say that same thing about an action or event in a game, which is attempting to evoke deeper feelings or implications, marginalizes gaming as a whole. You are basically saying that gaming in unable to attempt expression beyond basic entertainment.
@Marktime: Actually, that's a good point. It's fine to say "It's just a game." in response to someone who is trying to argue that Borderlands shouldn't have explosive bullets because that's not realistic. I hope with all my heart that no one has ever argued this.
What is really frustrating is that people seem quick to make themselves miserable because they simply can't find the fun in games anymore.
Agreed.
Agreed.
This blog should be required reading before someone is allowed to comment on anything. Even the weather.
I was going to add something, but I would only be reiterating when you've said. A(nother) great post.
*faps*
I was going to add something, but I would only be reiterating when you've said. A(nother) great post.
*faps*
I'm one of the ones that fapped this...
I do grow tired of other gamers acting like games can't be anything more than fun, especially the reactions toward those that play for money. Many gamers also seem to act like you can only have fun in one or two ways within a game and if you play a game a way that they wouldn't have played it, than "you can't possibly be having fun". I also find it annoying to hear that games have to be more than mindless fun.
"Gaming isn't this two-dimensional entity that can be summed up in one collective experience. We all experience it in a different way, and different games are meant to affect us in varying ways."
This, this, and this.
I do grow tired of other gamers acting like games can't be anything more than fun, especially the reactions toward those that play for money. Many gamers also seem to act like you can only have fun in one or two ways within a game and if you play a game a way that they wouldn't have played it, than "you can't possibly be having fun". I also find it annoying to hear that games have to be more than mindless fun.
"Gaming isn't this two-dimensional entity that can be summed up in one collective experience. We all experience it in a different way, and different games are meant to affect us in varying ways."
This, this, and this.
There's a term for phrases like "It's just a game": thought-terminating cliche.
You know, if you're SRS about debate.
So at what point does kauza become a contributing editor?
You know, if you're SRS about debate.
So at what point does kauza become a contributing editor?
You know, I like how we have NARPs and all, but why not take it to the next level? NAROs? No Apparent Reason Orgies? I think that would be amazing.
@TheBigFeel: That's awesome! Thanks for that link--I absolutely love learning new terms like that, especially when I have lots and lots of use for them. And many many thanks for your support! <3
@TheBigFeel: That's awesome! Thanks for that link--I absolutely love learning new terms like that, especially when I have lots and lots of use for them. And many many thanks for your support! <3
Can't you write a bad blog for once? Something that isn't so well-developed or thought-provoking as this? Something that doesn't make me jealous of what you do? That's probably a bit much to ask for, heh.
Good stuff, though, as this does touch a bit at why I get bothered when someone like Roger Ebert decides to badmouth games because they'll never be "artistic," or on a similar scale as films.
Good stuff, though, as this does touch a bit at why I get bothered when someone like Roger Ebert decides to badmouth games because they'll never be "artistic," or on a similar scale as films.
The games and art argument is a tired, ugly phenomenon that needs to die. Art is completely, utterly subjective. Who cares if Ebert thinks games are not art? Do you think a certain game is art? Well, then it is! I may not agree with you, but that is your opinion. The reasoning may be flawed, but there is no such thing as an objective medium.
Kauza, you bring up the issue of complexity as a rationale for taking a game seriously, but I think this differs depending on the game. We might say Final Fantasy VII is technically a "serious" game, because of all the man hours that went into it, but I don't find it serious at all! The battle system is joyless and the story was a ham-fisted absurdity. The same can apply to books, movies, TV shows, plays, and artwork. The creator might say, "I took this seriously (which is a vague term as it is), so you should too." That goes out the window when we play it, and decide for ourselves.
One of the issues we have currently is this divide between games and non-games. To illustrate, consider The Path. I found it to be *entertaining*, but I would not consider it a *game*, because its basically just an interactive movie. It might have a "message" of some sort, sure, but that doesn't make it a "serious game."
Kauza, you bring up the issue of complexity as a rationale for taking a game seriously, but I think this differs depending on the game. We might say Final Fantasy VII is technically a "serious" game, because of all the man hours that went into it, but I don't find it serious at all! The battle system is joyless and the story was a ham-fisted absurdity. The same can apply to books, movies, TV shows, plays, and artwork. The creator might say, "I took this seriously (which is a vague term as it is), so you should too." That goes out the window when we play it, and decide for ourselves.
One of the issues we have currently is this divide between games and non-games. To illustrate, consider The Path. I found it to be *entertaining*, but I would not consider it a *game*, because its basically just an interactive movie. It might have a "message" of some sort, sure, but that doesn't make it a "serious game."
What do you think of the "it's just a game" angle in terms of relating a particular game to how it affects one's scope of reality, particularly children around age 10? There's something to be said for consistently reminding children that what they're playing is not a reflection of real life and that it is "just a game." Would it be better to either shelter the children or is it even possible to start educating them on the artistic quality and/or the potential psychological implications (if any) of playing certain games?
Also, I understand that the context of this blog deals primarily with games as an artistic vehicle, and I totally agree with you. But I thought this might be interesting, though perhaps off-topic.
Also, I understand that the context of this blog deals primarily with games as an artistic vehicle, and I totally agree with you. But I thought this might be interesting, though perhaps off-topic.
Hey, there's never anything wrong with broadening the scope of the discussion. It's a very interesting point.
I think in that case, it's a good thing, but while the words are the same, the meaning is entirely different. I was already playing pretty violent games at age 10, and I never needed to be reminded that it was just a game, but I know that there are some out there that do. But with them, it's perhaps not the best way to educate them to say "it's just a game" and stop there, but rather to teach them the real-world implications of what occurs in a game. Simply saying "it's just a game" isn't enough, as what's to stop them from saying "hey, I thought what I saw in this game was all fun and games" and then run out into the real world with a shotgun. But I do think it's important to monitor how kids are interacting with the games they're playing; if something is starting to seem unhealthy about it, it's time to step in. I think most kids will figure it out for themselves, but parents still have to keep an eye on things.
I think in that case, it's a good thing, but while the words are the same, the meaning is entirely different. I was already playing pretty violent games at age 10, and I never needed to be reminded that it was just a game, but I know that there are some out there that do. But with them, it's perhaps not the best way to educate them to say "it's just a game" and stop there, but rather to teach them the real-world implications of what occurs in a game. Simply saying "it's just a game" isn't enough, as what's to stop them from saying "hey, I thought what I saw in this game was all fun and games" and then run out into the real world with a shotgun. But I do think it's important to monitor how kids are interacting with the games they're playing; if something is starting to seem unhealthy about it, it's time to step in. I think most kids will figure it out for themselves, but parents still have to keep an eye on things.
Right on! I just posed this question on the podtoid 123 post:
At what point in a gaming (movie, book, sport, etc...) debate/convo does it become important to step back and consider that the game in question is ultimately just a game? Where would you say that moment comes in, if ever, for each of you? Is that type realization even necessary, or should a game's artistic merits transcend its purpose to entertain? In other words, when does a game become more than "just a game"?
At what point in a gaming (movie, book, sport, etc...) debate/convo does it become important to step back and consider that the game in question is ultimately just a game? Where would you say that moment comes in, if ever, for each of you? Is that type realization even necessary, or should a game's artistic merits transcend its purpose to entertain? In other words, when does a game become more than "just a game"?
Awesome article, Great Job!
Seriously, though, this needed to be said at some point in a lengthy post and I'm glad it got promoted. If there is any reason that games are still looked at as childish, it is the inability by the very people who play them to think about the topic in any observant and constructive manner. Good work.
Seriously, though, this needed to be said at some point in a lengthy post and I'm glad it got promoted. If there is any reason that games are still looked at as childish, it is the inability by the very people who play them to think about the topic in any observant and constructive manner. Good work.
I think on average,as an adult, your gaming "seriousness" is in direct proportion to the amount of time you game. I spend most of my time in life against my will. This time is spent to ensure I can have the nice things I so desire. The only thing more valuable than my hard earned cash, is what is left of my free time. As for the oddness you'll find on the net, I think it's more related to personality of said poster.
Hey, I love boardgames! But in a different way. I'd never join a boardgaming site, for instance.
Actually...maybe I would :)
Actually...maybe I would :)
The next time says "It's just a game!", hit them across the knees with a bat and go "It's just your legs!"
i want to quote this lines...
"Really, it’s a matter of taking games just seriously enough, and all this requires is a willingness to accept that games aren’t only serious business, and they’re not “just games.”"
i totally agree that there's a space for some hard-core gamers!.. im actually starting to take it seriously.. and putting some interests for that..
"Really, it’s a matter of taking games just seriously enough, and all this requires is a willingness to accept that games aren’t only serious business, and they’re not “just games.”"
i totally agree that there's a space for some hard-core gamers!.. im actually starting to take it seriously.. and putting some interests for that..
Great blog! I love a fresh look on the subject. While a great view on games as is is, I think it shows that views are just that. While you feel this way about certain thing, others feel differently that you and that is great! While I did enjoy it I am asked to wonder what prompted this blog. From the blog itself it feels like you have let the endless pages of what feels like filler comments and reviews get you down.
I too get sick of what feels like silly comments I have also reached a point where I ignore the obviously stupid stuff and focus on what what kind of criticism, or possitive statement I can pull from someone else's mind to help me be a better consumer and so I can get a mind's eye view into what someone else feels about a game.
I too get sick of what feels like silly comments I have also reached a point where I ignore the obviously stupid stuff and focus on what what kind of criticism, or possitive statement I can pull from someone else's mind to help me be a better consumer and so I can get a mind's eye view into what someone else feels about a game.
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