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KOEI's katana dipped in the firey waters of Epic-gate (Updated: Bonus headline!)

3:40 PM on 07.25.2007, Jim Sterling 44 comments

KOEI's katana dipped in the firey waters of Epic-gate (Updated: Bonus headline!) photo
     Legal System
There's no denying that Silicon Knights' lawsuit against Epic has made some considerable waves, almost to the point of polarization in the games developer community. Some side with Epic, some with Silicon Knights. There are those who applaud the now-controversial Unreal Engine 3 and those with complaints. I am pleased to announce, however, that the argument can now be brought to a sweet finality, as KOEI (creator of the best videogames in the world) has stepped up to the plate and inadvertantly thrown some coal on the fire. I was leaning more toward Epic's side of the fence, but what can I do? Koei gives me Dynasty Warriors. This means everything it says is purest gospel.

Jarik R. Sikat, KOEI's sales and marketing manager, has waded into the cesspool with his own opinion on the matter. "It may be worth pointing out that many other publishers are having problems with the UE3 engine on the PlayStation 3,” Sikat stated when talking about Koei's experience with the Unreal Engine. 

For a response from Epic's Mark Rein, as well as my own thoughts on this situation, hit the jump.

[Update: I recently had some private words with KOEI regarding the general perception of what was said, most notably the context in which it was said. As you might be able to tell from the edits, general Internet perception of Sikat's words are somewhat skewed. For the record, Koei has a partnership with Epic Games, one it doesn't want to jeapordize by appearing to back Silicon Knights, a company with which it has no relationship at all as of yet. 

Because I in no way, shape or form wish to cause any undue hassle for my favorite company, I have made the necessary clarifications and hope that this clears up the rife online confusion about Jarik's statement.]  

[Via Deeko. Tip by Joe Burling]

Mark Rein's response:

“The bottom line is that making great games is hard work. There is no magic cure-all that completely hides the complexity of making world-class high-performance games on complex computing systems. We’re making huge strides toward making the engine fast on next-gen platforms and you can’t expect us to get that done overnight.”

“Our engine is not a launch-title technology. If you want to make launch titles you take your previous-gen engine and upgrade. If you want to make stunning true next-gen games like Gears of War and Unreal Tournament 3 (which people who license our engine generally often aspire to) you have to accept that it takes time to learn the intricacies of the systems.”

So, who exactly is right and who exactly is wrong in this whole muddy batch of shenanigans? It is of course impossible for we outsiders to truly have a firm opinion, but I have to say that not everything's black-and-white in life. I don't believe Epic is The Devil, deliberately screwing over its competition and ripping the last shreds of food from the mouths of starving African babies. That said, there have been a few complaints made against Epic's level of support for its product and I do feel that customer relations might be a problem for the company.

Rein is right to suggest that the Unreal Engine isn't a magic box of tricks that will make your game, provide a night of lustful congress and cook you breakfast in the morning, but at the same time, his statement almost gives credence to the idea that Epic just dumps the product on your doorstep and says "Here you go, now you figure it out." 

This is naturally nought but wild conjecture from a man who is not a developer and I wouldn't present my thoughts on this subject as anything but. One thing I am sure of though, is that Too Human is thoroughly boned now, especially if Silicon Knights is going to spend its time in a courtroom instead of the development grindstone.

 


Next page: More Epic Games stories




Yashoki's Avatar
Yashoki at 07/24/2007 18:19
Met epic in the mall, it's goin down!
GuitarAtomik's Avatar
GuitarAtomik at 07/24/2007 18:20
Frame City Killer?

Are they still making that game?!
Pangloss's Avatar
Pangloss at 07/24/2007 18:21
Hmmm... I'm starting to believe there might be something to this lawsuit. I was hesitant to listen back when it was just Silicon Knights, seeing as how Dennis Dyack is still butthurt over that one E3 showing.
Arugala9's Avatar
Arugala9 at 07/24/2007 18:24
Oh shit, everybody's picking sides. Can we yell MORTAL KOMBAT!!! and just get it over with?
Ignignokt01's Avatar
Ignignokt01 at 07/24/2007 18:24
It sounds like Epic just didn't deliver on what they promised in contracts, therefore, they are gonna get sued and will probably lose.

That's what you get for trying to oversell a product, promising too much and under-delivering.

And fucking SK need to finish their game I WANTS IT
Mozgus's Avatar
Mozgus at 07/24/2007 18:34
If the engine performs terribly on PCs, then I will care. Otherwise, fuck it. Unreal 1 and 2 were awesome engines. That's all I know.
Syndicate01's Avatar
Syndicate01 at 07/24/2007 18:38
you don't just yell MORTAL KOMBAT!!! and just get it over with, someone must bleed. -_-

who knows if they did this intentianally or not but i think in the midst of developing their own games and over licencing their engine they might have bitten off more then they could chew. what happens when you can only help so little? well i guess you hafto choose who gets your help. So maybe they decided to help the other major developers instead. Still if they broke the contract then they made their own bed.

Too Human is going to rock and this fiasco could only generate more sales. unless you got the hard core epic fan boys who will change their minds because their favourite developer god sued.

Artadius's Avatar
Artadius at 07/24/2007 18:44
It all depends on deliverables... what did Epic promise to deliver... and did they meet those deliverables?

If the deliverables were ambiguous enough that Epic has greyspace to maneuver around their promises... shame on the developers like Silicon Knights and KOEI for not demanding more detail.

Sadly, we may never know... unless it ends up in court and public record which I highly highly doubt.
covah's Avatar
covah at 07/24/2007 18:46
I'm just waiting for Midway to blame this as to why Hour of Victory sucked so bad.

wait, erh... UT3, forgot about that. midway will keep its mouth shut haha.
Yashoki's Avatar
Yashoki at 07/24/2007 18:48
Met epic in the mall, it's goin down!
Crunshii's Avatar
Crunshii at 07/24/2007 18:53
in other news...

that KOEI babe makes me wanna go all Borat on her...
Reallynotnick's Avatar
Reallynotnick at 07/24/2007 18:57
*Gasp* the canceled Frame City Killer has been delayed, yeah delayed FOREVER!!!!! *MUHOHAHAHA*

...Ok I kinda wanted that game.
demon_beast82's Avatar
demon_beast82 at 07/24/2007 19:07
I've heard stories of developers having trouble with the UT3 engine since last year. I remember i heard on the 1up podcast a story of epic sending programmers to japan just to get the thing to work. That said the suit isn't really about epic making a defective engine but for support for that engine and updates to key components that silicon knights says they never received.It will be interesting if other developers come forward to support either sides in court.
Zanch's Avatar
Zanch at 07/24/2007 19:17
This whole thing is stupid. Developers (or maybe just Silicon Knights) are claiming that Epic purposely withheld parts of their engine so other games couldn't look as good as their own and that's clearly not the case. As it is with all licensed technologies, a company is only required to give you the base engine. All other tweaks and enhancements made to the engine are the responsibility of the individual developer, not Epic. The fact that Epic's games look better than the others using UE3 is a biproduct of the fact that Epic spent 3 years developing that engine and as such, they know it better than anyone. The only part of this whole thing that sounds even partially accurate is that Epic hasn't been able to give the technical support to other devs, though any claims that they've done so with malicious intent are pure shit. This whole thing started because Dennis Dyack is a fucking crybaby and expected the engine to do all the work. Pathetic.
Professor Pew's Avatar
Professor Pew at 07/24/2007 19:18
So, Epic win or Epic fail?

One will stand and One will fall. And id-tech 5 will go: "tee hee"
Mister Disco's Avatar
Mister Disco at 07/24/2007 19:31
I'm proud that someone else is standing up and saying something, and of course I never expected it be KOEI, but it's a pleasant surprise.

In other news, I am fully prepared to blow a load or three inside that KOEI babe above.
Jsun's Avatar
Jsun at 07/24/2007 19:34
somebody post the rest of the KOEI booth babe pics.
Joe Burling's Avatar
Joe Burling at 07/24/2007 19:38
I don't know what to think.
Nyteshade's Avatar
Nyteshade at 07/24/2007 19:39
I think Sony and the Cell are really to blame for this lawsuit... they brought a new processor technology to market and put the task of learning how to use it on the developers shoulders.

I just made a blog rant (my first of many to come, I guess) about this, and I broke down why the Cell's architecture is causing so many problems like this lawsuit, but can also be the PWN360-Cell if used right.
Leaderz0rz's Avatar
Leaderz0rz at 07/24/2007 19:45
I think SK is just mad that Gears of War did so well while their game didn't. I don't have the agreement in front of me but from what I have collected from various sites they did provide the base engine and they did provide the muli-thread support later then expected but lets think here. How many times have games been delayed? Unless you work at Epic you don't know what happened to cause them to deliver updates to the engine later than expected. Why would you do something like "with hold key parts of the engine" when you know it would break the contract or whatever? Doesn't make sense to me and I think SK is just angry their game isn't working for them.
Jsun's Avatar
Jsun at 07/24/2007 19:52
Nevermind :(
http://www.ukresistance.co.uk/pics3/tgsbig/tokyogameshow46.JPG
Toolus's Avatar
Toolus at 07/24/2007 19:54
@Nyteshade
I really doubt it has anything to do with the cell since too human is a 360 exclusive and they also mention bioshock and mass effect
kawitchate's Avatar
kawitchate at 07/24/2007 19:55
shacknews had an article yesterday where they went to developers and asked them their opinions on working with UE3, the lawsuit, etc. while no one backs SK 100% like KOEI is, there sure seems to be more than a handful of developers that are unhappy with UE3.

my feeling? SK feels that Epic shouldn't have been working on their own games after just releasing a new engine - all Epic's time and energy should have went to further developing and supporting the engine and the licensees.
demon_beast82's Avatar
demon_beast82 at 07/24/2007 20:39
Support for the UT3 engine is at the heart of the lawsuit and despite dyack's bitching this doesn't sound like an isolated incident. If key features were promised and weren't delivered technically epic was in breach of and SK may have had no choice but to bring this case to the publics attention. If any good comes out of this it's that developers may get better support (with Epic now under scrutiny) and developers can focus on making (insert sequel or crappy franchise here), instead of struggling to get the engine to work.
Crunshii's Avatar
Crunshii at 07/24/2007 20:41
@ Nyteshade

check your post, Its nice and all but I pointed out one minor factor why its not Sony's fault, you should read it >_>;
Faith's Avatar
Faith at 07/24/2007 21:29
I just want this lawsuit to be over - its screwing with my chance at SK. I need my lawyer friend back.
MechaMonkey's Avatar
MechaMonkey at 07/24/2007 22:30
Malicious intent: Absolutely not.

Poor technical support and customer service: possible. But if suing for poor customer service was a profitable venture, most of the world's companies would be bankrupt.

This court decision will be over as soon as a judge gets a look at the contracts and licensing agreements between the companies. Things aren't implied in contracts, they need to be specifically stated. My guess? SK didn't read the fine print, or perhaps is making up their own. If things were being withheld, the threat of a suit would have sufficed. And the fact that Epic doesn't appear to be trying to settle tells us that they feel pretty confident that they're in the right.
stevenjazz787's Avatar
stevenjazz787 at 07/24/2007 22:55
Epic, Microsoft, and Sony must eat from the same punctual and dependable 4D kumquat tree of "knowledge" (notice the quotation marks around knowledge. Aren't I clever?).

We all know Nintendo doesn't eat that stuff, the shoot up teh drugs.
Ghouls's Avatar
Ghouls at 07/24/2007 22:57
So these games have been delayed BECAUSE of the engine?

-"“Many other games using the Unreal Engine 3 have been delayed including Stranglehold, BioShock, Lost Odyssey, Mass Effect, Rainbow Six: Vegas for the Playstation 3, Turok, Frame City Killer, and Brothers in Arms: Hell’s Highway.” Videogames being delayed? Unheard of before now, right guys?""

...just he PS3 version of RB6:V.. but the Unreal engine worked fine for the 360 version? Also, what game this gen hasnt been delayed? (besides noted RB6:V for the 360).

Silly connection really. Now if ALL the developers had complaints.. that would be different.
Zero Iscariot's Avatar
Zero Iscariot at 07/24/2007 23:02
Epic kind of is shit. I was lovin up Gears before it came out, but it is a mess of an online game. The networking runs worse than Unreal Championship, an Xbox Live launch title that was way faster in terms of gameplay.

Not to mention how they royally fucked up the controls for roadie running/chainsawing. They crippled "Legacy" sticks to help "default" users turn their character while roadie-running (Left stick+A). So instead of turning your character with the Left stick (+A) while RR'ing like Legacy users would normally do anyway I have to use the RIGHT stick+A to turn while running. Thanks Epic.

this one time CliffyB fucked up and sent me an inadvertant email with some spoilers about the Gears campaign and I blackmailed him into sending me an autographed Gears faceplate. True Story
Zero Iscariot's Avatar
Zero Iscariot at 07/24/2007 23:05
skeletor's Avatar
skeletor at 07/25/2007 00:24
What?? Epic is the cause of the Effect delay......GRRRRRR
brainderailment's Avatar
brainderailment at 07/25/2007 06:23
@Zero,
We are all very impressed. :\
LordRegulus's Avatar
LordRegulus at 07/25/2007 08:57
I've been consulting with a developer working on a UE3 game for PC and 360, doing video and trailer stuffs. We were supposed to begin work on a real-time trailer / machinima about a month ago, but there was some screw-up involving the most recent UnrealEd, and nobody outside the studio can get the damn thing running without an engineer hovering over the workstation like some sort of code-vulture.

I did get to monkey around with UE3 a little, and it's certainly a powerful engine. It's a natural extension of UE1 and UE2, and I give it pretty high marks for PC development, at least. My guess is that their console APIs are gimped, so it's hard to decide who's in the right here. If their customer support really is that lacking, I can see a lot of devs jumping ship and hitting up CryEngine2 , Project Offset, or even Fantasy Lab. In fact, this might be a positive thing for the industry. Competition is always good.
Zero Iscariot's Avatar
Zero Iscariot at 07/25/2007 13:45
@brainderailment:

I'm glad you speak for the entire robot community, and approve of my blackmailing skills. I can rest easy now. Epic sux.
dv8withn8's Avatar
dv8withn8 at 07/25/2007 14:11
@ Covah
Midway didn't develop Hour of Victory, they published it. Nfusion was the developer.

Anyway, I think the problem is developers having difficulty adjusting to the demands of "next-gen" gaming. UE3 happens to be the most widely used engine and people are always looking for someone to blame.
Niero's Avatar
Niero at 07/25/2007 16:33
I love reading internet archives where the Silicon Knights guy says Too Human is the best game they ever made and they refuse to show it to the press. If thats true why are they going to court? Hmmmm, oh right, because it was bullshit.
EAY's Avatar
EAY at 07/25/2007 16:42
I had no idea so many gamers are also lawyers. And why is it so many people keep saying UE3 is fine, if SK wasn't capable of making it work that is their problem... Didn't they state that they built their own engine in order to make TH work? I mean, wouldn't that require some skills and indicate that there are clearly capable people working on that project?

Crunshii's Avatar
Crunshii at 07/25/2007 17:20
To solve the problem I think Epic & Koei should just pity SK, and join in the fun of helping them finish their game so they can:

STFUJDG
|
develop! mudaf???er!!

I think SK should have gone with Crysis Engine2 instead of UE3.
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