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Hopefully, I can somehow keep everyone as friends. I'm a friendly guy, after all.
And my Hawke will reflect that.
And my Hawke will reflect that.
With some of the other changes, I guess you could say I am hesitatingly supportive (except for inability pan the combat cam - that's just totally lame). However, I'm actually down with this change. I think it opens up the role-playing and downplays the min/max economic calculus behind every little move.
Of course, I don't doubt there will be dozens of people who disagree with me. I also don't doubt that they're the exact same people who complain about the morality system (which, to my knowledge, doesn't really work the way the complainers think it does) and how it replaces role-playing with good/evil min-maxing.
Of course, I don't doubt there will be dozens of people who disagree with me. I also don't doubt that they're the exact same people who complain about the morality system (which, to my knowledge, doesn't really work the way the complainers think it does) and how it replaces role-playing with good/evil min-maxing.
Great write up. I think this article kind of sums up my feelings about this game in general. All of these changes have the potential to be very cool, but could also cause the game to fall flat on its face. I like the expanded freedom gained with the rivalry system. It's kind of like in KotoR where you had different gear that only Light/Dark Jedi could wear. You weren't penalized, as you often are, for being "bad". You do lay the opposing argument out very nicely though. The one way that I think they could make this work is if they still have those big character decision moments at the end be impacted by Friend/Rival status. If they don't pay that stuff off by the end of the game though, it will definitely have been a meaningless system.
I like it. It's definitely detrimental to the experience when you can't act the way you want without having to think about what a person can give you if you'll just play nice.
I played as a rogue with plenty of points in Coercion in DA:O, so I just looked at the emphasis on pleasing your teammates as just an extension my guy's skilled manipulation. He was the worst kind of hero: the kind that only sees the other members of his party as assets or fodder, depending on the situation. Not that anyone in the game noticed how I used them to buy time for my hero to escape when things were looking rough.
I played as a rogue with plenty of points in Coercion in DA:O, so I just looked at the emphasis on pleasing your teammates as just an extension my guy's skilled manipulation. He was the worst kind of hero: the kind that only sees the other members of his party as assets or fodder, depending on the situation. Not that anyone in the game noticed how I used them to buy time for my hero to escape when things were looking rough.
@killias2 Regardless of how the DA:2's system will actually work, I have come to hate Bioware's signature good/bad morality systems. Either the choices are so black/white that they are ridiculous (choose to either (a) save the orphanage or (b) burn it down and kill the orphans) or I feel like the game is judging me based on abstract or false premises. If the situation is truly morally or ethically complex, what right does the game have to tell me my actions are "good" or "bad"? How is it any more capable of making that determination than me? If, for example, I am given the choice of committing 1 murder in order to save thousands of lives, is that a good or bad act? I don't really know one way or the other. Why not just show me the consequences of my actions and let me decide for myself if what I did was, in the end, "bad" or "good"? Plus the morality system pigeon-holes your character. Maybe I want to be rude to the elves because I don't like elves. But I want to be nice to Leilana because I like her. That's why I liked DA:1. I felt like I could do and say what I wanted, and deal with the consequences, rather than be forced down the good or bad path in every conversation(ala Mass Effect 2, where I have been unable to save the entire crew and get the best ending solely because I didn't pick every Renegade conversation option/action).
So, it's basically a paragon/renegade gauge, but instead of a global, it's for each character in the game.
Could work. Sadly it still encourages players to go to extremes.
Could work. Sadly it still encourages players to go to extremes.
Remember back in Temple of Elemental Evil, if you did something that went against the Lawful Good alignment you'd lose your status as a Paladin? Good times. Frustrating times too. Can't decide on which prevails.
@Malfegor, The female Hawke IS canon, as much as the male version. The story is what you make it.
Future games will not refer back to the historical 'Hawke' in a gender specific way if Bioware has any sense. If it does, then (and only then) you can say one version was canon.
Future games will not refer back to the historical 'Hawke' in a gender specific way if Bioware has any sense. If it does, then (and only then) you can say one version was canon.
The emphasis of moral choice is rather meaningless if there aren't appropriate consequences. And really, the consequences shouldn't be easy to predict.
I what hard choices, like that time in origins were you chose to save the mother or her son, even though you save one the other hated you for not saving the other. I want harder choices then that!
"But I'm disappointed by what the rivalry mechanic might imply: that Hawke can treat her companions however she wants, that she could force them into compromising moral situations without their being able to lash out."
I don't think they have restricted themselves in the way that you have laid out here. I'm sure they are still able to have certain actions result in certain reactions, but it would simply have to be a system that goes beyond the friendship/rivalry mechanic.
I don't think they have restricted themselves in the way that you have laid out here. I'm sure they are still able to have certain actions result in certain reactions, but it would simply have to be a system that goes beyond the friendship/rivalry mechanic.
This sounds pretty good to me. I always like to play as different personalities in these kinds of RPGs. One playthrough I'll be the nice guy who wants everyone to get along, the next one I'll be a total dick.
The thing that bugged me about DAO is that if I was a dick to my teammates, I'd risk losing crucial party "roles" like a healer or tank. Sure, it makes sense from a narrative standpoint, but there needs to be an alternative to those characters, or you're pretty much screwed for battles where having those types of characters is a requirement.
Ex: On my very first playthrough, I killed Wynne when I first met her. And I had already built up Morrigan as a damager, so I got pretty irritated when I realised I'd have to turn Morrigan into a healer. I'm really glad I won't run into that kind of problem in DA2.
The thing that bugged me about DAO is that if I was a dick to my teammates, I'd risk losing crucial party "roles" like a healer or tank. Sure, it makes sense from a narrative standpoint, but there needs to be an alternative to those characters, or you're pretty much screwed for battles where having those types of characters is a requirement.
Ex: On my very first playthrough, I killed Wynne when I first met her. And I had already built up Morrigan as a damager, so I got pretty irritated when I realised I'd have to turn Morrigan into a healer. I'm really glad I won't run into that kind of problem in DA2.
Like I said, I'm actually fairly sure that the morality system does not work this way. I've never seen any indication that there is a universal morality system of any sort. I actually think the morality system is localized to each dialogue choice. "this would be interpreted as such, this would be interpreted this other way, etc."
I don't think choosing the nice option gets you more nice points.
Still, I could be wrong.
I don't think choosing the nice option gets you more nice points.
Still, I could be wrong.
Um... Fable judges things on a variety of factors, and it's a LOT better than the way Dragon Age 2 does it. It's based on three scales, with points like fear, humor, and how attractive you are.
Considering that I lost half of my party and a third character to interactions and choices, I would say there was a definite incentive to watch what you were saying, the problem I had was that a) those final consequences came as a direct result of specific plot situations and thusly everything I had done with those chars did not matter (except, I believe, but never could check, if I had gotten laid by them, which is *not* justifiable) b) the stupid gift mechanic let you weasel your way around not really payin attention to your relationships, just dump stuff on them from time to time.
I say, good riddance, now I can roleplay the kind of character I want (hopefully, if the choice is still between angelic good and comically evil I'll chuck the disk out of the window), without getting my gameplay ruined for arbitrary reasons. I'm all for meaningful consequences to meaningful choices, not ass pulls out of nowhere for "lol mature plot" value.
I say, good riddance, now I can roleplay the kind of character I want (hopefully, if the choice is still between angelic good and comically evil I'll chuck the disk out of the window), without getting my gameplay ruined for arbitrary reasons. I'm all for meaningful consequences to meaningful choices, not ass pulls out of nowhere for "lol mature plot" value.
This is why I liked the witcher. I was constantly trying to figure out what the good choices were because I wanted to be good. I found, though, that almost every choice had a downside and it was just up to me to decide which choice held the most benefit for the parties involved. That was a good game and its lack of realized, calculated and tangible morality meter / system really made me feel like i was making moral decisions. Some people would like you and some would hate you for what you did. If I could live with the decision then I was making the right moral choice for me.
I enjoy bioware games but I will agree that their morality system really skews towards general, socially accepted ideas of morality.
I really enjoy bioware games but their morality system is really more of a popularity or fame meter. I'm still not complaining. I love maxing out the paragon / renegade options and watching the mayhem unfold.
Additionally, to Biowares credit that scene in Mass Effect 2 where the the Quarian on the citadel is being accused of theft by the volus and being harassed by the police officer for being a vagrant was pretty bad ass if you took the paragon options. I mean heres this Shepard thats supposed to be all goody goody and he physically threatens both the cop and the volus after they continue to harass the quarian after she's found innocent. Yeah, probably my favorite side quest of the game.
I enjoy bioware games but I will agree that their morality system really skews towards general, socially accepted ideas of morality.
I really enjoy bioware games but their morality system is really more of a popularity or fame meter. I'm still not complaining. I love maxing out the paragon / renegade options and watching the mayhem unfold.
Additionally, to Biowares credit that scene in Mass Effect 2 where the the Quarian on the citadel is being accused of theft by the volus and being harassed by the police officer for being a vagrant was pretty bad ass if you took the paragon options. I mean heres this Shepard thats supposed to be all goody goody and he physically threatens both the cop and the volus after they continue to harass the quarian after she's found innocent. Yeah, probably my favorite side quest of the game.
Again, I dont know that the game is clear morally. I mean, DAO certainly wasnt. From what I gather, the "morality"'system is more like an indicator of how comments will be interpreted rather than a scale to judge how moral of a person you are.
For example, in the demo, there are several times where you can talk things over or urge people to hurry. Given the circumstances, who is to say which is morally superior? Certainly, one approach is friendlier , but it could also be placing you in danger.
For example, in the demo, there are several times where you can talk things over or urge people to hurry. Given the circumstances, who is to say which is morally superior? Certainly, one approach is friendlier , but it could also be placing you in danger.
As for what I meant in DAO: remember the werewolf/elf quest? Remember the dwarf/golem quest? Large elements of the Andre ashes quest...
Lots of moral ambiguity, and I haven't seen anything that comes close to confirming that this won't be true in DA2.
Lots of moral ambiguity, and I haven't seen anything that comes close to confirming that this won't be true in DA2.
AH, all this DA2 coverage is making my hype meter go over the max limit! As for the article, I'm not really sure what to make of the new Friend/Rival meter. It does have potential however. At least they reward you with more than a sex scene when you fill out the meters.
The one way I play bioware RPG's and most rpgs that have moral choice systems is to let go of the fact im playing a game. Forget the stats and everything else and immerse yourself completely into the character. I will use mass effect 2 as an example. Overall I am a diplomatic person and found myself making paragon choices, but I did renegade things when it felt right. As how I would react to situations. **SPOILER** Even though I had the paragon point to make everyone happy with smiles and rainbows I made the choice I felt I would make as the character and it changed the end game with not all my mates surviving. It was a much more fulfilling experience and I played Dragon Age that way as well. Anyway if you read my little suggestion thanks for taking the time. Also can't wait for DA2!
I always try to be a good character in rpgs. In origins, I found it difficult to do so. It seemed like even doing things with good intentions had a way of going sour. At first, I resented that. But as I played through the game I really came to enjoy and respect that trying to be good didn't always leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling. If there's one thing I really want from two, it's to be able to question whether I did the right thing like I did in origins.
The gameplay looks and feels tighter to me. I think combat's going to be much more fun. I'm just hoping the morality in this one doesn't just come down to save orphans or kill kittens.
The gameplay looks and feels tighter to me. I think combat's going to be much more fun. I'm just hoping the morality in this one doesn't just come down to save orphans or kill kittens.
So basically it's Mass Effect. As in, be a good guy or be a bad ass, it's still going to progress things the "same". I wonder what happens if you are alternatively nice and mean to someone. Do they advance both skill trees? I hope there is some perfect dialogue sequence to make someone your ultimate friendly rival.
Cribbed straight from Alpha Protocol.
@20 Sided Death, exactly. There was no right or wrong. There were three paths completely up to the player and they nailed it brilliantly. I wish Bioware could branch out and this friend/rival dynamic doesn't nearly go far enough. The world isn't black and white but sadly, Bioware seems keen to stick to this formula ever since KOTOR. Someone wake me when Bioware is done playing things safe.
@20 Sided Death, exactly. There was no right or wrong. There were three paths completely up to the player and they nailed it brilliantly. I wish Bioware could branch out and this friend/rival dynamic doesn't nearly go far enough. The world isn't black and white but sadly, Bioware seems keen to stick to this formula ever since KOTOR. Someone wake me when Bioware is done playing things safe.
There should, in my opinion, be some way to actually fall out with a companion (that is, a form of disagreement that would result in the party member leaving like the example of Andrastes Ashes for instance), but I generally like the idea of building a rivalry. This goes quite well with how many character interactions are portrayed in fantasy books or traditional RPGs and I think it, at least in theory, sounds awesome.
And, to be honest, I found the approval metre to simply lead to meta-gaming, as unless you increase approval you simply miss out on content. So if going down a separate path gets you different conversations, set-pieces and abilities, that might make things quite interesting.
And, to be honest, I found the approval metre to simply lead to meta-gaming, as unless you increase approval you simply miss out on content. So if going down a separate path gets you different conversations, set-pieces and abilities, that might make things quite interesting.
It is a Roleplaying game and as such this "rivaly system" is great. If you are exploiting it, you are stripping your self of the RPG part of the game. Thats then your decision and not a gameplay fault.
I do hope that goes for quests too. I want to be able to say to that old women "Fuck you, i've got a world to save, get your cat yourself from that friggin tree yourself!" without getting punished for it.
I do hope that goes for quests too. I want to be able to say to that old women "Fuck you, i've got a world to save, get your cat yourself from that friggin tree yourself!" without getting punished for it.
@sohei: "(ala Mass Effect 2, where I have been unable to save the entire crew and get the best ending solely because I didn't pick every Renegade conversation option/action)."
No, it sounds like you've been unable to save the entire crew and get the best ending because you don't know what the fuck you're doing. It has nothing to do with Renegade or Paragon at all. You fully upgrade the Normandy and pick the right people for the job during the final mission (i.e. an adept to do the psychic shield rather than picking a soldier to do it). Loyalty helps (again, nothing to do with alignment) but I think that's mainly for the person you choose to escort the people back to the Normandy.
No, it sounds like you've been unable to save the entire crew and get the best ending because you don't know what the fuck you're doing. It has nothing to do with Renegade or Paragon at all. You fully upgrade the Normandy and pick the right people for the job during the final mission (i.e. an adept to do the psychic shield rather than picking a soldier to do it). Loyalty helps (again, nothing to do with alignment) but I think that's mainly for the person you choose to escort the people back to the Normandy.
Eh I like this change personally.. I mean the first Dragon Age put you in this conundrum that felt important but ultimately wasn't until you were actually threatened with the character leaving... but them leaving also didn't make sense.. Like, sure, Wynne from trying to kill you over Andraste's ashes is a great example of how it works well but when they just dislike you based on trivial actions to the point where they're willing to give up saving the entire world and everything they know, then it becomes somewhat flawed in its design. I mean, would Wynne REALLY leave the fate of the world in the hands of an asshole just because that person told her to butt the fuck out of their relationship? In some respects it honestly wasn't balanced well, like if 2 well respected surgeons were to break up in the middle of a surgery just to have one walk out.
It really calls attention to the fact that people don't have to like each other to work towards a common goal and with the way Dragon Age 2 sounds you won't be penalized for having thoughts of your own.. Like the aforementioned telling Wynne to shut her trap about your relationship..It basically opens you up to being a real human being who may like certain people but may not like others. In DA2's case you could tell Wynne whats on your mind rather then feeling forced to play nice because without being nice you wouldn't get a reward, which would be artificial. Man what I would have given to make Morrigan my rival rather then skirting around her rather.. inhumane.. sensibilities just to keep her around, I honestly think it'd be fun to have her rival you if you were given the chance.
It really calls attention to the fact that people don't have to like each other to work towards a common goal and with the way Dragon Age 2 sounds you won't be penalized for having thoughts of your own.. Like the aforementioned telling Wynne to shut her trap about your relationship..It basically opens you up to being a real human being who may like certain people but may not like others. In DA2's case you could tell Wynne whats on your mind rather then feeling forced to play nice because without being nice you wouldn't get a reward, which would be artificial. Man what I would have given to make Morrigan my rival rather then skirting around her rather.. inhumane.. sensibilities just to keep her around, I honestly think it'd be fun to have her rival you if you were given the chance.
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