surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
I was hoping for someone to clear this up. I personally think it's a necessary evil to protect The Elder Scrolls franchise. It also really annoys me when people say that Mojang are a "small-time indie dev" as if making an indie behemoth isn't significant.
Well, I think the issue is that they sort of don't need to win this case. They just needed to show their intent to protect their brand. Even if they lose the case, they keep the integrity of the Elder Scrolls brand for any blatant rip offs.
So are they evil? Nah, no more than any large gaming company is now a day. (Aside from the evil overlords, EA & Activision, of course.) It isn't evil, it's just rather ridiculous that they are forced to do this to protect their brand. So yeah, it's a silly suit.
So are they evil? Nah, no more than any large gaming company is now a day. (Aside from the evil overlords, EA & Activision, of course.) It isn't evil, it's just rather ridiculous that they are forced to do this to protect their brand. So yeah, it's a silly suit.
Here's the issue:
They know they're wrong, they were offered a settlement out of court, they basically backed Notch into a corner before starting up the lawsuit in order to see if he'd bail out early, there is a clear understanding from Notch that he didn't know he was infringing in the first place, and ignoring this does not cease validity of taking down actual infringements on the license.
All signs point to Zenimax's lawyers blatantly ignoring the outer regions of this case to make a buck.
They know they're wrong, they were offered a settlement out of court, they basically backed Notch into a corner before starting up the lawsuit in order to see if he'd bail out early, there is a clear understanding from Notch that he didn't know he was infringing in the first place, and ignoring this does not cease validity of taking down actual infringements on the license.
All signs point to Zenimax's lawyers blatantly ignoring the outer regions of this case to make a buck.
It's still bullshit.
The word "scrolls" by itself doesn't mean anything to gamers. The combination of "Elder" and "Scrolls" is what creates the brand recognition. Scrolls by itself does not have imply a connection with the elder scrolls brand.
The word "scrolls" by itself doesn't mean anything to gamers. The combination of "Elder" and "Scrolls" is what creates the brand recognition. Scrolls by itself does not have imply a connection with the elder scrolls brand.
Y'know, I distinctly remember Notch saying he would change the name at one point, only for them to 'deny', egging him on to keep it.
Maybe I'm wrong. But, eh. I'm with him. Law VS Common Sense, go.
Maybe I'm wrong. But, eh. I'm with him. Law VS Common Sense, go.
Same stuff I've been saying since the conflict first arose. This is legal wrangling, the sort that has to happen. Regrettable, but it's the only way the system can function and protect the interests of businesses and consumers.
Who cares. Notch is a rich guy. And his game isn't even out of Beta yet. He's richer than any single person who develops Elder Scrolls.
Mojang should rename Scrolls to one of the following:
- Sky Rims
- Beyond Oblivion
- Older Scrolls
- Fallout Through The Sky's Rim
- Zenimax Said We Can't Just Call This "Scrolls"
- etc
- Sky Rims
- Beyond Oblivion
- Older Scrolls
- Fallout Through The Sky's Rim
- Zenimax Said We Can't Just Call This "Scrolls"
- etc
@ran24: Pretty much. What ZeniMax has a trademark on is "The Elder Scrolls", not the individual word "Scrolls". I highly doubt not having gone after a game which shares one word in common would make a judge order them to lose a trademark on The Elder Scrolls, since they never had a trademark on the words separately to begin with. If that were the case, why aren't/weren't entities like Office Max and Office Depot, Coca Cola and RC Cola, Toys R Us and K.B. Toys, Champs Sports and Dick's Sporting Goods, etc, constantly duking it out to defend their trademarks? If those entities like those can co-exist, which are much more similar, without their trademarks being revoked, I really don't see how Zenimax would be in danger of losing their "The Elder Scrolls" trademark by not suing Mojang over Scrolls--it seems to only be an issue because they made it one, as far as I can tell.
I'm no legal scholar, but all Elder Scrolls titles seem to place more emphasis on their subtitles than the words "Elder Scrolls." I wonder if this could be used against ZeniMax.
Yeah, I can't really go as far as demonizing ZeniMax for doing this but I will gladly demonize portions of the U.S. copyright laws.
Still like Notch more, though.
Still like Notch more, though.
I cannot blame Bethesda. This is business. If they win, it's a big plus for them, as it sets a precedent that could protect them from much worse infringements.
As far as the idea that they should only object if "Elder Scrolls" is copied, keep in mind that "Elder" is only a modifier, and one that is easy to get around. Another company could make a very viable knock-off with titles like "Ancient Scrolls" or "Older Scrolls". "Scrolls" is obviously the important word, not "Elder".
As far as the idea that they should only object if "Elder Scrolls" is copied, keep in mind that "Elder" is only a modifier, and one that is easy to get around. Another company could make a very viable knock-off with titles like "Ancient Scrolls" or "Older Scrolls". "Scrolls" is obviously the important word, not "Elder".
Fucking suits getting money for projecting that the whole consumerbase is fucking stupid and can't tell the difference between Scrolls and The Elder Scrolls. Newsflash, we can. We can read and our attention span isn't 0.5-0.8 seconds.
Sometimes I hate this world...
Sometimes I hate this world...
@Thunder Monti
No one can tell what point you are trying to get across, and more importantly,no one cares.
No one can tell what point you are trying to get across, and more importantly,no one cares.
Ppl love to call big corps evil but in this case it isnt true imo.
Btw I wonder just how much cash Notch is forking out for the court case vs all the extra sales he'll get from all the press he is getting. Even if he loses the Scrolls name everybody is gonna know what the new title is.
Btw I wonder just how much cash Notch is forking out for the court case vs all the extra sales he'll get from all the press he is getting. Even if he loses the Scrolls name everybody is gonna know what the new title is.
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but since Mojang is a Swedish company (right?) how can Zenimax sue Mojang when Mojang only sells its games over the international waters known as teh interwebs?
Also, if the case is brought up before a Swedish court, I still have hope for Mojang. The law system there doesn't seem as crazy as in the US.
Also, if the case is brought up before a Swedish court, I still have hope for Mojang. The law system there doesn't seem as crazy as in the US.
@Thunder Monti
Stop referring to 'us readers' like we're all with you, and don't think you're a robot body for Jim Sterling that's breaking down.
Stop referring to 'us readers' like we're all with you, and don't think you're a robot body for Jim Sterling that's breaking down.
Also, I'm dating myself here but this is just as dumb as the "bald guy and a girl with a ponytail" lawsuit Epic had against Id.
Oh people, never learning from dumb mistakes...
Oh people, never learning from dumb mistakes...
@pokota: Even if what you say is true, that still doesn't actually seem to hold true though. Why aren't Capcom and SNK having a legal fight over Street Fighter and King of Fighters then, since Fighter is the operative word in both cases, especially since both series are actually in direct competition with each other in that case? How did Bandai Namco and Nintendo ever deal with Digimon/Pokemon without killing each other? And other video game examples (that are slightly less similar, but still have as much to do with each other as TES and Scrolls do), like despite having made Chrono Trigger, Square Enix seems to have let Arc System Works off the hook on BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger (and for the other half, they don't seem to have bothered EnjoyUp games about Chronos Twins). Oh, and Nintendo and Microsoft/Rare seem to be quite fine with Wii Sports (Resort) and Kinect Sports co-existing. If these type of games can co-exist, I really don't see why The Elder Scrolls and Scrolls can't, and why Zenimax actually feels the need to take this to court. I can't see how this is an actual necessity to defend their trademark.
@arkane9
Sweden is most likely a participant in the same copyright agreements as the U.S., possibly the Berne Convention, but I'm not sure about that.
Sweden is most likely a participant in the same copyright agreements as the U.S., possibly the Berne Convention, but I'm not sure about that.
I love how people in the comments think they know better than the law student who actually researched this.
@Thunder Monti
Get off your high horse and stop acting as if you are representing me, that is when I can understand what the fuck you are even saying. As a reader I dont even consider what Zenimax is doing as a necessary "evil", its just necessary.
Get off your high horse and stop acting as if you are representing me, that is when I can understand what the fuck you are even saying. As a reader I dont even consider what Zenimax is doing as a necessary "evil", its just necessary.
@ Shiron
Zenimax can't risk losing their trademark which is worth millions of dollars. Trademark law is really dense, difficult, and nonsensical. It makes more sense to litigate the issue than to not litigate it and risk losing their trademark. You list Bandai Namco and Capcom, which are both Japanese companies, and if I am not mistaken, Japanese trademark law is significantly different than U.S. TM law.
There are constant issues with US companies having their trademarks infringed upon by Chinese companies with little recourse because of Chinese trademark laws and the way that the laws are interpreted in these countries.
The Kinect Sports and Wii sports examples are a wash because the word "sports" has been interpreted to be basically public domain, you can't trademark the word sports, but a phrase involving sports could be trademarked. Of course the word Wii is proprietary for nintendo and Kinect is Tm'd by microsoft, so if Nintendo were to make Kinect Sports I would guess there would be an issue.
Zenimax can't risk losing their trademark which is worth millions of dollars. Trademark law is really dense, difficult, and nonsensical. It makes more sense to litigate the issue than to not litigate it and risk losing their trademark. You list Bandai Namco and Capcom, which are both Japanese companies, and if I am not mistaken, Japanese trademark law is significantly different than U.S. TM law.
There are constant issues with US companies having their trademarks infringed upon by Chinese companies with little recourse because of Chinese trademark laws and the way that the laws are interpreted in these countries.
The Kinect Sports and Wii sports examples are a wash because the word "sports" has been interpreted to be basically public domain, you can't trademark the word sports, but a phrase involving sports could be trademarked. Of course the word Wii is proprietary for nintendo and Kinect is Tm'd by microsoft, so if Nintendo were to make Kinect Sports I would guess there would be an issue.
@Shiron
I'm not saying that Bethesda will win, or even should win, just that I can't blame them for trying. As for the other games you mentioned, each case is different, and copyright law is complex.
Regarding Japan, though, I can say that they are often pretty lax about copyrights, because of the HUGE fanworks industry they have over there. Well, except for Nintendo, I think, they can be pretty strict.
I'm not saying that Bethesda will win, or even should win, just that I can't blame them for trying. As for the other games you mentioned, each case is different, and copyright law is complex.
Regarding Japan, though, I can say that they are often pretty lax about copyrights, because of the HUGE fanworks industry they have over there. Well, except for Nintendo, I think, they can be pretty strict.
"few cases include a man named Norman McDonald"
I'm almost inclined to ask if Norm McDonald also sued this guy for his name, also. I could could just see that headline 'Norm McDonald sues man over name, Not being funny' ....Poor guy, lol.
"Keep in mind as well that Notch's offer to change or alter the Scrolls name doesn't count for much in this case."
So wait, that offer to change the name wasn't to change the name completely? Cause I was under the impression it was and Zenimax was still going ahead with the suit any way, because they had too for all this brand crud.
"It’s the reality of Trademark Law. If you don’t make efforts to maintain your mark, you may lose your mark."
I'm going to sound like one of "those people" but It sounds like the reality of Trademark Law is to litigate those with less money into the ground so they have no choice but to quit and/or completely lose their business (while keeping those lawyers well compensated doing ALL that legal work they must do in this field, mind you). Which is what people are worried about more then anything for Notch in this case.
It doesn't matter if ZeniMax likes that they have to do it or not, the fact of the matter is we, as a people, have let things like this get stupidly out of hand.
I don't think ZeniMax is evil, they have to do what they have to do, but the law itself is leaning pretty heavy towards it.
Also, yeah, we're worried about Notch and all, but has their been any actual word he's even suffering at all yet? This has just started, and while it sucks, and puts a hamper on things, I'd wait to hear more concrete word that he's suffering from all this before we jump off that deep end.
As for the last question: I wouldn't sue him, because its obvious they know its ridiculous they have to do it, too. I'd suffer the Scrolls name, and if it came up at any point that the court says it may have diluted my trademark, I'd make it pretty well known that the there's no possible way that this name , or this game, could ever be confused with mind.
If the courts won't take that as enough evidence that the trademark isn't diluted enough for it to matter, and no other reports come in that people got confused for GOOD reason, then the problem is obviously with the courts and the laws, which all of this points to in the first place.
Then again, this is also why I don't have a trademark, nor a company that has any -and probably never will.
I'm almost inclined to ask if Norm McDonald also sued this guy for his name, also. I could could just see that headline 'Norm McDonald sues man over name, Not being funny' ....Poor guy, lol.
"Keep in mind as well that Notch's offer to change or alter the Scrolls name doesn't count for much in this case."
So wait, that offer to change the name wasn't to change the name completely? Cause I was under the impression it was and Zenimax was still going ahead with the suit any way, because they had too for all this brand crud.
"It’s the reality of Trademark Law. If you don’t make efforts to maintain your mark, you may lose your mark."
I'm going to sound like one of "those people" but It sounds like the reality of Trademark Law is to litigate those with less money into the ground so they have no choice but to quit and/or completely lose their business (while keeping those lawyers well compensated doing ALL that legal work they must do in this field, mind you). Which is what people are worried about more then anything for Notch in this case.
It doesn't matter if ZeniMax likes that they have to do it or not, the fact of the matter is we, as a people, have let things like this get stupidly out of hand.
I don't think ZeniMax is evil, they have to do what they have to do, but the law itself is leaning pretty heavy towards it.
Also, yeah, we're worried about Notch and all, but has their been any actual word he's even suffering at all yet? This has just started, and while it sucks, and puts a hamper on things, I'd wait to hear more concrete word that he's suffering from all this before we jump off that deep end.
As for the last question: I wouldn't sue him, because its obvious they know its ridiculous they have to do it, too. I'd suffer the Scrolls name, and if it came up at any point that the court says it may have diluted my trademark, I'd make it pretty well known that the there's no possible way that this name , or this game, could ever be confused with mind.
If the courts won't take that as enough evidence that the trademark isn't diluted enough for it to matter, and no other reports come in that people got confused for GOOD reason, then the problem is obviously with the courts and the laws, which all of this points to in the first place.
Then again, this is also why I don't have a trademark, nor a company that has any -and probably never will.
@BoomingEchoes
"I'm going to sound like one of "those people" but It sounds like the reality of Trademark Law is to litigate those with less money into the ground so they have no choice but to quit and/or completely lose their business (while keeping those lawyers well compensated doing ALL that legal work they must do in this field, mind you). Which is what people are worried about more then anything for Notch in this case."
While this obviously does happen, don't forget the other side of the equation, small "copyright trolls" who really exist for no other purpose except to sue larger companies for damages AFTER they use a certain name. See the word "Edge" for more details on that.
This is similar to "patent trolls". There are important technologies being held up simply because large companies are afraid patent trolls are waiting in the wings, ready to sue after a product goes to market. Look at all the trouble HTML5 video support is having in that regard.
"I'm going to sound like one of "those people" but It sounds like the reality of Trademark Law is to litigate those with less money into the ground so they have no choice but to quit and/or completely lose their business (while keeping those lawyers well compensated doing ALL that legal work they must do in this field, mind you). Which is what people are worried about more then anything for Notch in this case."
While this obviously does happen, don't forget the other side of the equation, small "copyright trolls" who really exist for no other purpose except to sue larger companies for damages AFTER they use a certain name. See the word "Edge" for more details on that.
This is similar to "patent trolls". There are important technologies being held up simply because large companies are afraid patent trolls are waiting in the wings, ready to sue after a product goes to market. Look at all the trouble HTML5 video support is having in that regard.
Well that's pretty interesting. If that's all accurate than the situation makes a teeny bit of sense.
Thanks for doing the research, Brock.
Thanks for doing the research, Brock.
I wasn't even aware there was a ridiculous law like that, although I can see why some may consider it relevant.
But, as with most laws that are based around people being stupid (see Electoral College) it has become obsolete (at least in its current form) with the bottom-end level stupidity rising to that of complete moron rather than stupid monkey.
People are still a LOT dumber than they should be, but not nearly as stupid as they used to be.
But, as with most laws that are based around people being stupid (see Electoral College) it has become obsolete (at least in its current form) with the bottom-end level stupidity rising to that of complete moron rather than stupid monkey.
People are still a LOT dumber than they should be, but not nearly as stupid as they used to be.
@Chongomaster
34.45%....seriously? You have to be crazy to not think it would be at LEAST 40%
IMA RAGE IN MY CAGE!
34.45%....seriously? You have to be crazy to not think it would be at LEAST 40%
IMA RAGE IN MY CAGE!
follow
