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The real issue I have is unlike with a physical medium, the price won't fall when demand has come and gone. How many times have we seen price drops on XBLA. Maybe 8-9 games out of 100. So we'll be left with a $15 Braid for a looooong time.
He just made this statement in the comments section. Jim, I think you would enjoy this.
"Rod — I agree with you, it is a significant risk. However, I had to look at the low end too — I have no idea how many people will buy Braid even at $10 (it is the least popular of the Summer of Arcade games, with the least publicity).
What I had to guard against is the Space Giraffe problem. Jeff Minter priced Space Giraffe (which is the best game on XBLA) at $5 because he wanted a lot of people to be able to afford it, and really wanted to give something to the fans at a low price. Well, that bit him in the ass because he only sold 19k copies; depending on how big his testing+localization advance was, maybe he has barely made any money from Space Giraffe at all, and just lost a lot of money (due to the time spent in development). I don’t know exactly. I’m pretty sure, though, he didn’t even make back his cost of living.
If I could ensure my ability to keep making games without publisher interference, and release Braid at $0, I would do that. But I had to guard against the Space Giraffe problem. Like Space Giraffe, Braid is a non-mainstream game, very different from the other things on XBLA, without much publicity. And Jeff Minter had a built-in audience from his previous games, waiting to play SG the minute it came out; Braid doesn’t even have that.
There is a significant possibility that Braid would have been the next Psychonauts or Beyond Good and Evil (critically acclaimed but nobody played it), even at $10. If that happens at $10 then I am in debt and have to get a job and can’t make games any more. If that happens at $15, maybe I can still make games. That is the difference."
"Rod — I agree with you, it is a significant risk. However, I had to look at the low end too — I have no idea how many people will buy Braid even at $10 (it is the least popular of the Summer of Arcade games, with the least publicity).
What I had to guard against is the Space Giraffe problem. Jeff Minter priced Space Giraffe (which is the best game on XBLA) at $5 because he wanted a lot of people to be able to afford it, and really wanted to give something to the fans at a low price. Well, that bit him in the ass because he only sold 19k copies; depending on how big his testing+localization advance was, maybe he has barely made any money from Space Giraffe at all, and just lost a lot of money (due to the time spent in development). I don’t know exactly. I’m pretty sure, though, he didn’t even make back his cost of living.
If I could ensure my ability to keep making games without publisher interference, and release Braid at $0, I would do that. But I had to guard against the Space Giraffe problem. Like Space Giraffe, Braid is a non-mainstream game, very different from the other things on XBLA, without much publicity. And Jeff Minter had a built-in audience from his previous games, waiting to play SG the minute it came out; Braid doesn’t even have that.
There is a significant possibility that Braid would have been the next Psychonauts or Beyond Good and Evil (critically acclaimed but nobody played it), even at $10. If that happens at $10 then I am in debt and have to get a job and can’t make games any more. If that happens at $15, maybe I can still make games. That is the difference."
I don't want to buy anything off of xbox live, but if its my only option I guess I'll have to learn to stop worrying and love the bomb. I don't like this imaginary digital world.
@manasteel88
This is why I don't want to buy anything off of XBLA. I already have played some of the games to death, but wouldn't mind owning ANOTHER copy of it - if the price was more modest. For example - Alien Hominid. I own a gamecube copy I paid twenty dollars for. I don't want to buy it AGAIN. Same with Sonic 2 and Symphony of the Night. Love the games, but why so seriously expensive? Don't they know the world economy is in decline?
@manasteel88
This is why I don't want to buy anything off of XBLA. I already have played some of the games to death, but wouldn't mind owning ANOTHER copy of it - if the price was more modest. For example - Alien Hominid. I own a gamecube copy I paid twenty dollars for. I don't want to buy it AGAIN. Same with Sonic 2 and Symphony of the Night. Love the games, but why so seriously expensive? Don't they know the world economy is in decline?
I just got through wiht the demo and found it to be quite enjoyable.
That said, the only puzzle piece I didn't get within seconds of seeing it was the result of requiring pixel perfect precision rather than a challenge to my problem solving skills (tried the solution several times before it worked).
Maybe later on it gets harder, and showing that in the demo would be an advantage, but I can't really justify Microsoft's price gouging for a game with little to no replay value (for me anyway) that doesn't seem like it'll take me overly long to finish.
Which is a shame because Braid is a well made, attractive game that I would have picked up without hesitation had it been at the normal prices for XBLA games.
Maybe that's just because I'm a) poor and b) tight-assed though.
That said, the only puzzle piece I didn't get within seconds of seeing it was the result of requiring pixel perfect precision rather than a challenge to my problem solving skills (tried the solution several times before it worked).
Maybe later on it gets harder, and showing that in the demo would be an advantage, but I can't really justify Microsoft's price gouging for a game with little to no replay value (for me anyway) that doesn't seem like it'll take me overly long to finish.
Which is a shame because Braid is a well made, attractive game that I would have picked up without hesitation had it been at the normal prices for XBLA games.
Maybe that's just because I'm a) poor and b) tight-assed though.
With him explaining the issue, i kinda understand where he is coming from. BUT...why make it sound at first it was Microsofts idea, instead of his own? That's the part that sounds kinda hypocritical to me...
Neomotion: He is saying that Microsoft wanted the game to be 1200 MS points and given that they apparently have the final say he felt they would go with that price anyway.
Jonathan is saying that sure, he would have liked to be able to go with 800, but the he perceived the financial risk to gbe greater and believed MS would just go with whatever they wanted anyway, making it a moot point.
Jonathan is saying that sure, he would have liked to be able to go with 800, but the he perceived the financial risk to gbe greater and believed MS would just go with whatever they wanted anyway, making it a moot point.
I have to say I don't really see an issue with 1,200 for this game. It doesn't seem to be completely out of step with the way they've been pricing games in the past. This one seemed borderline to me, it wouldn't have surprised me if it was released for either 800 or 1200, and that seems consistent with what the developer said.
There's talk of price inflation on XBLA, but aren't there more variables involved than just the price going up? For example, the game size cap has been increased, and the platform is taken a lot more seriously than it was on launch and so there would be a natural trend towards games that have the higher production values and a more polished development process that attracts a higher price. The test case for this was Lumines Live, and that came out quite some time ago now.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see more 1200 and 1600 point games in the future. And many of them will be rubbish. But I think (save for a few freak exceptions in the generally consistent pricing) they'll at least aim for the sort of content in them which would seem to justify those prices. And I don't think 800 and 400 point games will go away, because there's always room for those - look at Geo Wars 2.
Of course Microsoft wants to see how much we'll pay, I'm not naive - I just think there are many other factors at work here.
There's talk of price inflation on XBLA, but aren't there more variables involved than just the price going up? For example, the game size cap has been increased, and the platform is taken a lot more seriously than it was on launch and so there would be a natural trend towards games that have the higher production values and a more polished development process that attracts a higher price. The test case for this was Lumines Live, and that came out quite some time ago now.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see more 1200 and 1600 point games in the future. And many of them will be rubbish. But I think (save for a few freak exceptions in the generally consistent pricing) they'll at least aim for the sort of content in them which would seem to justify those prices. And I don't think 800 and 400 point games will go away, because there's always room for those - look at Geo Wars 2.
Of course Microsoft wants to see how much we'll pay, I'm not naive - I just think there are many other factors at work here.
Go spite MS by downloading the demo and not buy the game. We're using their resources without paying for it.
Well I've played the first three worlds so far. Maybe costs more than everything else but it's also much better than anything else I've seen on arcade.
It is quite disheartening to see MS disregard the creator's opinions on the pricing and just go with whatever they want so they can take all our space bucks.
the problem for me with the pricing of Braid is whether or not it will last.
I played the trial version and loved it. The watercolour backgrounds were fantastic and it was a nice spin on the basic platformer (plus I loved the Mario homages throughout one level)
but it all depends on the longevity. I got through the trial in probably about 20 minutes. There doesn't seem to be very much after that, judging by the number of worlds, so I really am not sure if it's a purchase. If it was 800 I would've snapped that up as quickly as possible. But since it's 1200 I'm not so sure.
I could spend that on some Rock Band DLC or rent a movie and I'd get more out of it.
But as I said, I've only played the trial version. There may be a lot more that i haven't seen.
It is a damn impressive game though. Check the trial out if you havent.
the problem for me with the pricing of Braid is whether or not it will last.
I played the trial version and loved it. The watercolour backgrounds were fantastic and it was a nice spin on the basic platformer (plus I loved the Mario homages throughout one level)
but it all depends on the longevity. I got through the trial in probably about 20 minutes. There doesn't seem to be very much after that, judging by the number of worlds, so I really am not sure if it's a purchase. If it was 800 I would've snapped that up as quickly as possible. But since it's 1200 I'm not so sure.
I could spend that on some Rock Band DLC or rent a movie and I'd get more out of it.
But as I said, I've only played the trial version. There may be a lot more that i haven't seen.
It is a damn impressive game though. Check the trial out if you havent.
It seems like quite a lot of people (me among them) won't be paying for the game at this price, so Mr. Blow not fighting that pricing was a bad move methinks. No one is going to take a risk on a 1200 point game. Once there's more than 3 numbers in the price, people become a bit wary. 800 is a much nicer number for most people. They're fine with making that. You could buy both Geometry Wars games for the price of Braid. That's irrirating.
The last game to be priced this way was Puzzle Quest. Fuck, Puzzle Quest has an insane amount of content.
Braid has 3 hours (probably at the most). Since those are the only two games that hit at that price point (Puzzle Quest since dropped), it's hard to justify Braid's pricing by anything other than stupidity.
The Penny Arcade game is an exception, because that's a $20 game on the PC, and if it was cheaper on the 360, PC gamers would cry foul.
Just my two cents, but I think this is only going to hurt him. Comparing the game to Space Giraffe is stupid, because Space Giraffe sucks, hard.
The last game to be priced this way was Puzzle Quest. Fuck, Puzzle Quest has an insane amount of content.
Braid has 3 hours (probably at the most). Since those are the only two games that hit at that price point (Puzzle Quest since dropped), it's hard to justify Braid's pricing by anything other than stupidity.
The Penny Arcade game is an exception, because that's a $20 game on the PC, and if it was cheaper on the 360, PC gamers would cry foul.
Just my two cents, but I think this is only going to hurt him. Comparing the game to Space Giraffe is stupid, because Space Giraffe sucks, hard.
Soooo, there somewhere I can buy this in normal monies on PC? I know that's where Anthony played it, so I'd like my fuckin' PC version plz.
I have no problem paying this kind of money for these XBLA games as they seem to be worth the money. On the other hand I hope that this does not mean that MS will try to up the price of all of their XBLA games to 1200 points. I would not be happy about paying that much for some of the crap thats out there. All I can do is hope that this is just for these games.
I'll at least try the demo, but unless it blows me away (like it failed to do when I tried it at e4all) I'll pass for now.
One question I have for these developers who are struggling with XBLA is why don't they develop for PC as well, and release it through Steam. The PC market usually supports games like this much better than the XBL crowd, and I think it's a better service than what Microsoft offers. Is there some sort of exclusivity agreement?
One question I have for these developers who are struggling with XBLA is why don't they develop for PC as well, and release it through Steam. The PC market usually supports games like this much better than the XBL crowd, and I think it's a better service than what Microsoft offers. Is there some sort of exclusivity agreement?
Am I the only person who doesnt see a company charging more for its better products as being 'cynical exploitation'?
If developers dont like the price schemes microsoft has for the XBLA then they can go and release their games else where. If you think something isnt worth buying then dont fucking buy it. It's a game, it isnt exactly essential to life.
If developers dont like the price schemes microsoft has for the XBLA then they can go and release their games else where. If you think something isnt worth buying then dont fucking buy it. It's a game, it isnt exactly essential to life.
"Jeff Minter priced Space Giraffe (which is the best game on XBLA)"
So Space Giraffe isn't the bigget piece of shit ever made like I keep hearing? SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU.
So Space Giraffe isn't the bigget piece of shit ever made like I keep hearing? SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU.
I played the demo this morning before work, and while I love the art style and music, the gameplay featured in the brief demo doesn't really justify $15 if it's as short as everyone says.
i've read a few reviews this morning and a lot of them are saying it has a similar style to Portal
Long enough to keep you busy, but short enough so you don't get fed up.
I was happy paying whatever for Portal, so maybe if this is a similar length it may be worth my space bucks
Long enough to keep you busy, but short enough so you don't get fed up.
I was happy paying whatever for Portal, so maybe if this is a similar length it may be worth my space bucks
Braid is an indie game right? Published by MS? If so, then 1200 points is kind of understandable, not that I personally think the game is worth 1200. I'd rather wait for Castle Crashers.
Considering the price of a full game in a store this is pretty reasonable for a completely original title. Not for oldies though.
Considering the price of a full game in a store this is pretty reasonable for a completely original title. Not for oldies though.
@GrayFox
Wait... so this guy things Space Giraffe is good?
Erg, I'm not so sure about Braid now if the creator things that game is good. :p
...
To be honest I wouldn't care as much about the XBLA pricing of some of these games if the cost of MS points versus the pricing of XBL content was consistent. In the US 4000 points costs ~$50 but in Canada 2800 points costs $40. From what I understand other countries are just as bad if not worse, yet we pay the same amount for XBL content that Americans do. We can't even just buy US points cards because for some inane reason they're locked by country and the only way to use them is to make an American account (which is pretty unreasonable).
Of course this is Microsoft's fault as they set the points policies and game pricing, but games like Braid and Castle Crashers will likely suffer internationally because of it.
Wait... so this guy things Space Giraffe is good?
Erg, I'm not so sure about Braid now if the creator things that game is good. :p
...
To be honest I wouldn't care as much about the XBLA pricing of some of these games if the cost of MS points versus the pricing of XBL content was consistent. In the US 4000 points costs ~$50 but in Canada 2800 points costs $40. From what I understand other countries are just as bad if not worse, yet we pay the same amount for XBL content that Americans do. We can't even just buy US points cards because for some inane reason they're locked by country and the only way to use them is to make an American account (which is pretty unreasonable).
Of course this is Microsoft's fault as they set the points policies and game pricing, but games like Braid and Castle Crashers will likely suffer internationally because of it.
I quite enjoyed the Space Giraffe demo once I got my head around it.... but I can understand how people would hate it.
Might go download the Braid demo now...
Might go download the Braid demo now...
I am soooo on the fence with this game. I like the idea, but i just hope that time reversal isn't the only thing this game has in its pocket.
fail... i would have bought this at 800... that's my max for downloadable games... maybe someday it will see a price drop... until then... i'll play something else... i seriously hope castle crashers and bionic commando don't follow this price scheme as those are two i really want to play.
Seeing people worried about the length. Blow said this on his blog comments a few weeks ago:
Braid is well over 30 minutes. I don’t think it’s even physically possible to speed-run the game in 30 minutes even if you have memorized the best solutions to all the puzzles. (So far the fastest time I have seen for the entire game is 34 minutes).
I would say that it’s 5-8 hours of gameplay to play through most of the puzzles, depending on how quickly you solve the puzzles. From there, if there are a few hard puzzles you get stuck on, it could be an extra 1-5 hours…
Braid is well over 30 minutes. I don’t think it’s even physically possible to speed-run the game in 30 minutes even if you have memorized the best solutions to all the puzzles. (So far the fastest time I have seen for the entire game is 34 minutes).
I would say that it’s 5-8 hours of gameplay to play through most of the puzzles, depending on how quickly you solve the puzzles. From there, if there are a few hard puzzles you get stuck on, it could be an extra 1-5 hours…
"One question I have for these developers who are struggling with XBLA is why don't they develop for PC as well, and release it through Steam."
This will be released on PC too.
This will be released on PC too.
Ujn: Bionic Commando has been confirmed at 800 points somewhere. Castle Crashers I think they are still calculating how much they can ream people for.
Well, I was totally planning on getting Braid if it was 800. But not for 1200. That's at least one customer lost.
While I still think that Microsoft is setting the stage for future exploitation, I want to support guys like this. While I'm not thrilled by the price increase, I'm glad at least some of the money is going back to him.
If Microsoft starts to release games that should only be priced at 400 or 800 points at 1200 or 1600 points we can speak with our wallets.
If Microsoft starts to release games that should only be priced at 400 or 800 points at 1200 or 1600 points we can speak with our wallets.
naia: as far as I'm concerned this IS a game that should be 800 points. There isn't much replay value and word has it that it is quite short. Yes it does look and play very nice but I won't buy it because I don't see why we should accept a pricing scheme based on quality/popularity.
People would go apeshit if they started charging $80-100 for a retail game because it was of very high quality. The value might be lower here but the principle is just the same.
People would go apeshit if they started charging $80-100 for a retail game because it was of very high quality. The value might be lower here but the principle is just the same.
So it sounds like he also needs money just to pay back the cost of developing it, and let's be honest, we all know it's not going to sell that well. If I had the money, I'd buy it right away; I just need to wait a few months first, though.
@GrayFox
Space Giraffe is NOT the biggest piece of shit ever made. It is in fact much, much worse.
About Braid. Meh. Haven't had interest since that developer walk through video as Blow came off as a pretentious bag of dicks. I know there are a lot of people who will enjoy it, and that rocks, but the pricing is out of whack.
Space Giraffe is NOT the biggest piece of shit ever made. It is in fact much, much worse.
About Braid. Meh. Haven't had interest since that developer walk through video as Blow came off as a pretentious bag of dicks. I know there are a lot of people who will enjoy it, and that rocks, but the pricing is out of whack.
Oh my god, a company charges $5 dollars more for a game that has been getting excellent reviews and a lot of pre-release buzz. Welcome to the real world kids. Don't think it's worth $15? Don't buy it. You can make that choice. You're not entitled to get everything at the exact price you want. This is not the end of the world, you are not being "raped" by MS because they decide to charge slightly more than you'd like for a product. Get the fuck over it.
I dont think its right to raise a price just because people are excited. What if they had upped bioshock from 60 to 80 just because there was buzz? I dont quite understand those who just let them do it without even raising a question. But I CAN say that they wont get my support.
I think braid is well worth 15 bucks. What if all games were supposed to be 15 bucks? It wouldn't have been an issue then.
And what's with these "Look at them, making money" statements, like it's a bad thing? Of COURSE they're doing what they can to make money. That's what businesses do, they're not soup kitchens doing things out of the kindness of their collective hearts. Did you know that companies also bend the truth in their favor as to make their products look better than the competition's? Oh noes, so scandalous!
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's right to shaft loyal customers either, but if you're loyal enough, you're going to bend over for the company you love and you're going to take its mammoth meat manatee as best you could and you're going to like it. don't matter what company it is, that's what brand loyalty boils down to.
And what's with these "Look at them, making money" statements, like it's a bad thing? Of COURSE they're doing what they can to make money. That's what businesses do, they're not soup kitchens doing things out of the kindness of their collective hearts. Did you know that companies also bend the truth in their favor as to make their products look better than the competition's? Oh noes, so scandalous!
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's right to shaft loyal customers either, but if you're loyal enough, you're going to bend over for the company you love and you're going to take its mammoth meat manatee as best you could and you're going to like it. don't matter what company it is, that's what brand loyalty boils down to.
Though I'm not happy to be paying five dollars more than I could be, we all have to remember that this is a business. Microsoft now has a product with high demand. They can and will sell it for more money. It's not that outlandish, and it happens in everything.
Again, it sets bad precedence for the future and for other platforms.
Also, if this is the least popular of the "Summer of Arcade" games and it's 1,200 then we can most assuredly expect Bionic Commando and Castle Crashers to be more.
Also, if this is the least popular of the "Summer of Arcade" games and it's 1,200 then we can most assuredly expect Bionic Commando and Castle Crashers to be more.
yay Space Giraffe!
also, loved - LOVED - the Braid demo but i'm going to have to stick to my guns on this one. i'm not buying it at the $15 price point. same reason why i have yet to buy Penny Arcade for $20. and if Castle Crashers is $20, no way i'm buying that one either. STICKIN' TO MY GUNS!!!
also, loved - LOVED - the Braid demo but i'm going to have to stick to my guns on this one. i'm not buying it at the $15 price point. same reason why i have yet to buy Penny Arcade for $20. and if Castle Crashers is $20, no way i'm buying that one either. STICKIN' TO MY GUNS!!!
kawitchate: Same here but my god the pressure! I want it, but I don't want the next slew of bigger release to be 1600+.
My only problem with this is that Microsoft is abusing our enthusiasm. Braid and Castle Crashers have tons of internet buzz around them, so MS ups the price five bucks. I wouldn't mind paying $15 for Braid or CC, but it's the principle that bugs me. If no one was especially looking forward to them, then MS would've kept them both at $10, I bet.
So, even after what I said I broke down and bought it. Braid is a fantastic, fantastic game. It's by far the best game I've played this year, the best game since Portal.
Played the demo and loved it. It's so refreshing to see some original ideas in the current wake of sequels and remakes. If experiencing the demo wasn't enough it has also been getting great reviews. I'll gladly shell out $15 for this and love all 4 or 5 hours I play it because not only will it be a quality gaming experience but I'll be supporting independent developers coming up with innovative ideas which is what the game industry needs badly.
A added note I have no idea what the pricing will be but I dont see them charging less than $20 for Bionic Commando (which I'm picking up for PS3 for link play).
A added note I have no idea what the pricing will be but I dont see them charging less than $20 for Bionic Commando (which I'm picking up for PS3 for link play).
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