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I grew up in single-parent household where we had a rocky few years trying to get settled and money was really tight. Used games were the only way I could afford to buy games with the little bit of money I made doing odd jobs around the neighborhood, and my mother certainly couldn't afford to buy them for me. Yes, those games were a luxury, but you know, I remain an avid player of video games over a decade later. If I hadn't been able to continue playing games during those years, would I still be playing now or would I have given it up as a too-expensive luxury and never picked it back up once I had the money to? It's impossible to know, but I strongly suspect the latter. Now I'm an adult with a paying job who almost exclusively buys games new (and yes, bad consumer, often at launch), and rarely trades them in, because I can afford to. It's just something for publishers and others to think about when they rail against used games.
That being said, I recognize that some games need to be $60, particularly on physical media. As others above have said, the development costs on most AAA games are outrageous and that's what's required to recoup development, marketing, and distribution costs, plus of course turn a profit. But, some games certainly can afford to come down in price and have no business being $60 at launch. As Jim has pointed out recently, publishers also need to bring down digital distribution prices.
So, tl;dr version: Yes, games are absolutely a luxury, but that's no reason to just accept the payment model as is and claim we can't criticize it.
That being said, I recognize that some games need to be $60, particularly on physical media. As others above have said, the development costs on most AAA games are outrageous and that's what's required to recoup development, marketing, and distribution costs, plus of course turn a profit. But, some games certainly can afford to come down in price and have no business being $60 at launch. As Jim has pointed out recently, publishers also need to bring down digital distribution prices.
So, tl;dr version: Yes, games are absolutely a luxury, but that's no reason to just accept the payment model as is and claim we can't criticize it.
Good point, well made. I know that these days I'm far more discerning about what games get my money, and I stopped buying into maybes years ago. I'm with Tristrix. I picked up 13-2 for 15 quid, Darkness 2 for 15 quid and darksiders for a tenner. 3 games for the price of 1. If I buy something day 1 it's either called Mass Effect or Bioshock, or has a major online component I want to get involved in, cause it's always best to jump in while everythings new there.
But apart from that, I wait it out, every time.
But apart from that, I wait it out, every time.
I have never understood the 'video games are a luxury, so don't bitch about the pricing' argument, for exactly the reasons you state in your video, Jim.
I don't think a lot of the people who make that argument really understand what the term 'luxury' means with regard to economics. If something is a luxury, it can be done without. If it can be done without, pricing will have a greater effect on the number of sales. It's up to the publishers to find that maximum on the profit vs. price graph.
The math gets even trickier when you realize that gaming is an investment hobby. You need to purchase a console or computer, and you need to maintain some level of skill or familiarity with the state of gaming. If someone drops out of gaming due to inability to purchase games at one point in their life, they will be less and less likely to pick it back up if they regain the financial means to pursue it again.
I don't think a lot of the people who make that argument really understand what the term 'luxury' means with regard to economics. If something is a luxury, it can be done without. If it can be done without, pricing will have a greater effect on the number of sales. It's up to the publishers to find that maximum on the profit vs. price graph.
The math gets even trickier when you realize that gaming is an investment hobby. You need to purchase a console or computer, and you need to maintain some level of skill or familiarity with the state of gaming. If someone drops out of gaming due to inability to purchase games at one point in their life, they will be less and less likely to pick it back up if they regain the financial means to pursue it again.
They have to lower the price of games to $30.00 Its that simple. Most of the games that are released are not worth $60.
Games have been down recently yes however I think it has for a bigger part to do with a movement of the market rather than a shrinking, Digital distribution is taking a ever bigger portion of the sales and since they are not tracked in sales figures the marked may seem to shrink more than it does, Mobile games because they are digital are also not tracked. So the shrinking is a lot less than it seems. Naturally since publishers take a lesser part in digital sales their income is going down but the industry as a whole may not be in such a bad position. The same happened to the music industry when it went with online distribution Record lables while still powerful became less important and the official sales figures when down, in truth the whole music industry has not shrinked at all and was just moving into another form.
The attitude of everything is going to shit oh fuck piracy and such is only the publishers getting scared of losing power, not the games industry itself going to shit, the pc has showed that recently.
The attitude of everything is going to shit oh fuck piracy and such is only the publishers getting scared of losing power, not the games industry itself going to shit, the pc has showed that recently.
i agree with jim as usual, it seems stupid to attack the used games industry they might not make the company any money but it gives your game brand awareness and keeps the less loaded people playing video games, were i have to criticize jim is that he didn't mention that new games go down in price in a matter of a few months to half a year, unless your nintendo or a niche company that does limited print runs that sell out there for making the game super expensive. my advice to the poor including myself is look for the good deals weather that be on amazon or at gamestop or by just downloading some psn, steam or whatever download service games for cheap.
when growing up my mom didn't always have extra cash but she still let me get games form time to time because while they may be luxury they are still a stress reliever. the music industry used to be considered a luxury and now you can buy songs for less than a dollar and games are going the same way.
when growing up my mom didn't always have extra cash but she still let me get games form time to time because while they may be luxury they are still a stress reliever. the music industry used to be considered a luxury and now you can buy songs for less than a dollar and games are going the same way.
@Laharl-KOTNW
Wow speaking as someone from a poor household who has been helping his grandmother get out of debt for over 6 years now cause my grandfather died and a whole lot of other stuff happened...Im not saying im pure or anything but why should someone have to be pure to get a break and have things more affordable? Hell I know for a fact not alot of people would have done what I have done and I wouldn't judge anyone for it...I made a choice to do so and hell there were times where I had to dig down deep to help find the money to pay rent or turn the power back on...(including selling my PS2 with all its games I got in better times)
But just cause someone is poor doesn't mean they should have to live a spartanlifestyle and always be on the outside looking in at what others enjoy. Im not a dumb person I didn't decide in what family I got born into either but my grandmother is the only one I care about...And she sure as hell didn't get in debt cause of any decisions she made she survived cancer 3 times by now wich even with healthinsurance leaves you with quite the bill...Oww and the funny part is my aunt who actually is wealthy would not lift one finger to help my grandmother but always found a way to judge me if she knew I saved up to buy a game...
But Im sure on the outside it must seem every poor person deserves to have less because its gotta be their fault somehow... And hell those do exist but consider yourself damn lucky if you lived without the stress of wondering how your gonna deal when that improvised fix on the washing machine no longer works....Or if theres gonna be food tonight or a milion of other bad things that could happen that change your life from surviving with the bare minimum to omg how am I going to get through this...
Forgive those of us without your infinite amount of wisdom and true life experience that on occasion I bought games with what I could save in the times that it was affordable... You gotta be able to relax somehow and dont feel sorry for me either I survived and im well on the way to saving for my own place now that my grandmother is pretty much out of debt. But I never lose sight of how I had to claw my way through all this and the stress it put on me and everyone who is still going through such hard times deserves respect. And they damn sure deserve to be able to afford being entertained every now and then.
Sorry for my rant but gaming is indeed a luxury but luxury by itself can be necessary in a way, for me it was a way to deal with day to day life...And im definitely not gonna sit back when theres someone who judges others on if they really are poor simply because on occasion they find it in their budget to be entertained...
Wow speaking as someone from a poor household who has been helping his grandmother get out of debt for over 6 years now cause my grandfather died and a whole lot of other stuff happened...Im not saying im pure or anything but why should someone have to be pure to get a break and have things more affordable? Hell I know for a fact not alot of people would have done what I have done and I wouldn't judge anyone for it...I made a choice to do so and hell there were times where I had to dig down deep to help find the money to pay rent or turn the power back on...(including selling my PS2 with all its games I got in better times)
But just cause someone is poor doesn't mean they should have to live a spartanlifestyle and always be on the outside looking in at what others enjoy. Im not a dumb person I didn't decide in what family I got born into either but my grandmother is the only one I care about...And she sure as hell didn't get in debt cause of any decisions she made she survived cancer 3 times by now wich even with healthinsurance leaves you with quite the bill...Oww and the funny part is my aunt who actually is wealthy would not lift one finger to help my grandmother but always found a way to judge me if she knew I saved up to buy a game...
But Im sure on the outside it must seem every poor person deserves to have less because its gotta be their fault somehow... And hell those do exist but consider yourself damn lucky if you lived without the stress of wondering how your gonna deal when that improvised fix on the washing machine no longer works....Or if theres gonna be food tonight or a milion of other bad things that could happen that change your life from surviving with the bare minimum to omg how am I going to get through this...
Forgive those of us without your infinite amount of wisdom and true life experience that on occasion I bought games with what I could save in the times that it was affordable... You gotta be able to relax somehow and dont feel sorry for me either I survived and im well on the way to saving for my own place now that my grandmother is pretty much out of debt. But I never lose sight of how I had to claw my way through all this and the stress it put on me and everyone who is still going through such hard times deserves respect. And they damn sure deserve to be able to afford being entertained every now and then.
Sorry for my rant but gaming is indeed a luxury but luxury by itself can be necessary in a way, for me it was a way to deal with day to day life...And im definitely not gonna sit back when theres someone who judges others on if they really are poor simply because on occasion they find it in their budget to be entertained...
So other luxury industries are "pro-consumet"?! This is great news! I'm sure ferrari will be glad to work with me to get me in the car I've always "needed to drive."
I see the whole poor and rich thing a little differently, especially in video game terms. I see teens and adults. It isn't rich people who go around in gold plated yachts, mocking the poor who can't afford video games. It is people who have good, steady income and people who get allowance, or have to work minimum wage jobs. Every issue that is 'controversial' on DToid is solved with "I have enough money to pay for it". Used games? Piracy? DLC? DRM? Yeah, doesn't affect me, but I understand it can for others.
As far as they should lower the price for games, three things. Thing number one is inflation. Games cost the same amount a decade ago that they do today, but (based on CPI tables from 2000-2010) the 'actual' price us up 25%. Maybe not the biggest deal in the world, but worth mentioning.
Point the second, it sure sounds like you are trying to say that publishers should sell the game for less to more people. Why not just sell at a loss to everyone, they could make mad bank! Oh right, that wouldn't work. They need to reduce costs so it is easier to recover the lost investment. But what happens if the cost goes down? Graphics suffer, pieces get cut, and people /will/ complain. Look at, oh I dont know, every game on the Wii.
Point the third, just a lower price will make people see the game as a weaker product (even if it isn't). Grey Goose is high quality because it is expensive, and is expensive because it is high quality. There isn't too much special about it, but the perception helps. It's like you have always said about Halo. It's only good because Microsoft said so. Releasing a game at a lower price point is just saying 'this game is crap'.
As far as they should lower the price for games, three things. Thing number one is inflation. Games cost the same amount a decade ago that they do today, but (based on CPI tables from 2000-2010) the 'actual' price us up 25%. Maybe not the biggest deal in the world, but worth mentioning.
Point the second, it sure sounds like you are trying to say that publishers should sell the game for less to more people. Why not just sell at a loss to everyone, they could make mad bank! Oh right, that wouldn't work. They need to reduce costs so it is easier to recover the lost investment. But what happens if the cost goes down? Graphics suffer, pieces get cut, and people /will/ complain. Look at, oh I dont know, every game on the Wii.
Point the third, just a lower price will make people see the game as a weaker product (even if it isn't). Grey Goose is high quality because it is expensive, and is expensive because it is high quality. There isn't too much special about it, but the perception helps. It's like you have always said about Halo. It's only good because Microsoft said so. Releasing a game at a lower price point is just saying 'this game is crap'.
@TXYeti
That doesn't always make sense either because they can spend a crapton of money making a game and still churn out total garbage. The problem is almost every developer jumps on the "my game is worth 59.99 MSRP" bandwagon regardless of the actual quality of their game, certainly regardless of their budget.
As for the "they should charge what the market will bear" that is exactly the sort of thinking that has gotten us this deluge of cashgrab games and is currently crippling the market. Its sorta like "we do what we can because we must", there is a fair market price and there is "what the market will bear".
The sad thing is that most of the people making these games can't see that if they charged less they would actually make more by volume of sales and early adoption. Not to mention there would be less of a used market for said game. As it would both be cheaper to purchase new and have used retailers offering less trade-in credit for the game. Instead we get stupid overpriced games chock full of anti-consumer DRM and a shitton of overpriced DLC.....
That doesn't always make sense either because they can spend a crapton of money making a game and still churn out total garbage. The problem is almost every developer jumps on the "my game is worth 59.99 MSRP" bandwagon regardless of the actual quality of their game, certainly regardless of their budget.
As for the "they should charge what the market will bear" that is exactly the sort of thinking that has gotten us this deluge of cashgrab games and is currently crippling the market. Its sorta like "we do what we can because we must", there is a fair market price and there is "what the market will bear".
The sad thing is that most of the people making these games can't see that if they charged less they would actually make more by volume of sales and early adoption. Not to mention there would be less of a used market for said game. As it would both be cheaper to purchase new and have used retailers offering less trade-in credit for the game. Instead we get stupid overpriced games chock full of anti-consumer DRM and a shitton of overpriced DLC.....
Loved this week's episode. Soon, developers and publishers will offer half their souls to convince gamers to buy their games. :-P Diablo 3 for 60 euros. Let's put that in context. In my country, with that much money, I could pay 4 months of internet, that's a third of a year of internet. There's never been a game I played for a whole month. It simply couldn't entertain me that much.
The movie industry has the same problem. They assume that if the product is good, then customers will buy it regardless of it's price\drm\adverts\fbi warnings\etc. If it doesn't sell it's a bad product, or a result of piracy or secondary markets. They don't take into consideration other market factors because they are more difficult to account for and don't always result in immediate gains. Actually business in general has the problem, they focus on the simple shortsighted solutions and don't really ponder the long term effects.
@Lahari
Statistics do not tell all, in fact those do not tell me anything. I come from the poorest city in this country (Not happy about that statistic) and I can tell you for damn sure that no one around here is a part of every one of those statistics you brought up.
Those statistics are presented in a clearly biased manner. If you ever take one thing from a statistics course it is that you must approach any statistic that is presented to you with skepticism.
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A car is practically essential nowadays, and every car my parents had ever bought were used and a decade (Give or take a year) old.
Air conditioners...really? Of course more people have air conditioners, they're cheaper now.
The same goes for microwaves, that and the fact that it is easier and cheaper to get microwavable food.
When it comes to the luxury items such as Cable, DVD/VHS etc, game consoles, TVs, internet access, etc. I do not know a single person 'round here with all of those things top-of-the-line. I myself had dial-up up until late last year, latest console being a PS2, 10-ish year old Sony tv. And blah blah. You need more perspective than you are willing to grasp man.
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Don't really care what else you have to say on the matter as I'm sure it'll go on forever, but those statistics are just biased mumbo jumbo.
Statistics do not tell all, in fact those do not tell me anything. I come from the poorest city in this country (Not happy about that statistic) and I can tell you for damn sure that no one around here is a part of every one of those statistics you brought up.
Those statistics are presented in a clearly biased manner. If you ever take one thing from a statistics course it is that you must approach any statistic that is presented to you with skepticism.
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A car is practically essential nowadays, and every car my parents had ever bought were used and a decade (Give or take a year) old.
Air conditioners...really? Of course more people have air conditioners, they're cheaper now.
The same goes for microwaves, that and the fact that it is easier and cheaper to get microwavable food.
When it comes to the luxury items such as Cable, DVD/VHS etc, game consoles, TVs, internet access, etc. I do not know a single person 'round here with all of those things top-of-the-line. I myself had dial-up up until late last year, latest console being a PS2, 10-ish year old Sony tv. And blah blah. You need more perspective than you are willing to grasp man.
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Don't really care what else you have to say on the matter as I'm sure it'll go on forever, but those statistics are just biased mumbo jumbo.
Oh and those luxuries are obviously nice things. I had to save up for my 3DS, and even then I bought it secondhand.
I make a six figure salary and I still don't buy most of the games that I want to play on day one (or at all sometimes) out of principle, due to shitty business practices....
I'm just glad that I stopped being poor right before this current era of bullshit that is the gaming industry.
I'm just glad that I stopped being poor right before this current era of bullshit that is the gaming industry.
@Shinta
I'm not sure who you are arguing with but it clearly isn't me because I never said all poor people, just most. I never said government programs didn't work either, I just said that many need to be restructured. Next time you reply please avoid any straw men.
I'm not sure who you are arguing with but it clearly isn't me because I never said all poor people, just most. I never said government programs didn't work either, I just said that many need to be restructured. Next time you reply please avoid any straw men.
Obviously the game industry wouldn't have become this huge if consumers didn't spend money on it, and consumers wouldn't have all these games if the game industry didn't make games, which goes back to funding, etc. They rely on each other and should be listening to each other, instead of both sides acting like everything's owed to them. Ah, the joys of human society.
I don't understand your point here. If you're poor, why would you want to buy a new $60 game? There are plenty of older releases that are much more affordable, and you can even get some AAA titles a few years after launch for five dollars on Steam if you get it when it's on sale. I don't see why it is wrong to launch a game at a relatively high price and make it lower as time goes on. Which reminds me, this is why I hate Blizzard. StarCraft II is still $60 with a one-day sale price of $30 only, while Portal 2 has been on sale for about $7 a few times now. Then again, most video games drop in price quite a bit if you are willing to wait a few months, so I can't really sympathize with poor people being unable to purchase brand new games. I guess it all goes down to finding the proper balance in pricing your game between pirates and people willing to spend that much money on it at launch.
Video games are art,as many people these days will insist. As such, like any other prudent artist, folks in the game industry need to understand what the market will bear when pricing their work.
One doesn't try to hock Faberge eggs for top dollar to feed peoples' desire for for the finer things in life in a place where people are struggling to afford real eggs to feed the hunger in their bellies in an effort to prolong their lives.
On the other hand, said starving people don't usually head into an art gallery rather than a grocery store, so that is rarely, if ever an issue.
Maybe used and reduced price older games= mass produced art books and souvenir replicas in this case?
Maybe it really is a good idea not to compare games too closely to other forms of art.
One doesn't try to hock Faberge eggs for top dollar to feed peoples' desire for for the finer things in life in a place where people are struggling to afford real eggs to feed the hunger in their bellies in an effort to prolong their lives.
On the other hand, said starving people don't usually head into an art gallery rather than a grocery store, so that is rarely, if ever an issue.
Maybe used and reduced price older games= mass produced art books and souvenir replicas in this case?
Maybe it really is a good idea not to compare games too closely to other forms of art.
Jim said in one of his video's before that if you're going to charge $60 for a game, make it worth $60. It's like with books, comics and movies; people will pay more for something if they think it's good. Since many people can't afford to pay top dollar, they can always buy pre-owned games, so I agree with you in supporting the used game market (I have plenty of pre-owned titles myself). I like to think of it as depreciation of value with time. I also don't support online passes and monthly fees, it only drives people away, and only makes the price issues worse. While I'm willing to pay full price for a new game, and a lower price for an older one, I'm not willing to pay for something I already bought. Imagine if film publishers made people pay for every time they want to watch a movie? A movie they already paid for.
I'm not sure what you're saying? There is a used game market, free to play games, and most games DO drop in price if you wait a few months. I brought my girl to see The Avengers and it cost $35.00 for 2 hours of entertainment. I've played Dark Souls for months! Well worth 60 bucks.
Are books a luxury? Are films? Paintings? Videogames are still in their infancy but they belong to everyone. I dont care if you want to sell your games for 60$ or 100$ but I dont agree with game companies locking up the path to game development and distribution. I should probsbly watch this weeks ep. before commenting further.
@osifracrat
"Are books a luxury? Are films? Paintings?"
Er... some of them, yeah. Not every book, film or painting is an beacon for human civilization.
"Are books a luxury? Are films? Paintings?"
Er... some of them, yeah. Not every book, film or painting is an beacon for human civilization.
I often hear the "games are a luxury" phrase being uttered in response to people trying to justify piracy. And I'm curious how many of those people that pirate because they 'can't afford' to pay for the games actually can't afford them. I bet a lot are just choosing to save their money for other non-essential things, because piracy is an option.
There are always going to be items out of your reach financially, no matter what your status is. However, I see nothing wrong with experimenting with pricing to see the result. I know that Arkham Asylum had a launch week sale in Canada when it was released, but that wasn't repeated for Arkham City. So the sales data may not support lowering the price.
There are always going to be items out of your reach financially, no matter what your status is. However, I see nothing wrong with experimenting with pricing to see the result. I know that Arkham Asylum had a launch week sale in Canada when it was released, but that wasn't repeated for Arkham City. So the sales data may not support lowering the price.
I have to agree with Jim on this he points out some vary good points and it is surprising how the gaming ind. is still afloat like it is with game sales going down.
Games are a luxury....this is coming from a person that just last week had to go to a food pantry because TADA I cannot afford food plus pay my bills. I no longer buy games I have a back log of games that I need to get through and even then I likely wont be buying more then a few games a year because the job market is Shit in america and I aint gots no job but a certain income that I do have is enough to pay my bills.
so yes Games are a luxury and I do pirate I'm a filthy stinking pirate, and piracy is always theft.
so yes Games are a luxury and I do pirate I'm a filthy stinking pirate, and piracy is always theft.
To all you idiots arguing socioeconomics on the game site; I remind you of the immortal words of Jello Biafra who said "kill kill kill kill kill the poor. Kill kill kill kill kill the poor. Kill kill kill kill kill the poor tonight-ee-ite ite tonight-ee-ite ite..."
Stupid teens and college kids think there facetious self-rightous indignation amounts to a hill of beans. This is humanity we are talking about here. You know...holocausts and atom bombs. We eat each other. It's our nature. Accept reality and feel lucky you haven't been murdered or bombed yet.
The poor! Give me a break, of all the nonsense!
Stupid teens and college kids think there facetious self-rightous indignation amounts to a hill of beans. This is humanity we are talking about here. You know...holocausts and atom bombs. We eat each other. It's our nature. Accept reality and feel lucky you haven't been murdered or bombed yet.
The poor! Give me a break, of all the nonsense!
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