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I always thought that saying "games are art" is stupid. The medium has artistic potential, but not games are "art". Most are just toys. Hence, the term "art game" is fully functional at this point in the medium's history.
Unless Jonathan thinks toys are art as well? Not being sarcastic, just curious.
Unless Jonathan thinks toys are art as well? Not being sarcastic, just curious.
All games are art, but some games take this a step further as having art be the foundation for why the game is created. I have never seen the problem with using the term 'art game'. It is such a non-issue for me. Just as two RPGs can be wildly different, so too can two Art Games. Just as you can have a great FPS and a bad FPS, so too can you have a great AG and a bad AG.
It was already established that games are art.
You have established that 'art game' is a valuable descriptor.
Can we please never speak of any of this again?
You have established that 'art game' is a valuable descriptor.
Can we please never speak of any of this again?
@UncleReg
Why can toys not be art? Industrial design prepares people for the various things they could artistically design, toys included. You can make certain value judgments that one toy is more "artistic" than a other. Really you would be saying something along the lines that one toy is more "aesthetically pleasing" than the other. It is consistent.
Society has this way of making art a separate category, reserved for the creation of particular goods by particular people. When history has held art in a loose way, reserved for those goods where aesthetics would be considered and not just function.
Why can toys not be art? Industrial design prepares people for the various things they could artistically design, toys included. You can make certain value judgments that one toy is more "artistic" than a other. Really you would be saying something along the lines that one toy is more "aesthetically pleasing" than the other. It is consistent.
Society has this way of making art a separate category, reserved for the creation of particular goods by particular people. When history has held art in a loose way, reserved for those goods where aesthetics would be considered and not just function.
Sure, I see nothing wrong with calling it as such.
In the same way that is art. Cultures create stuff, this stuff is held with some aesthetic value. It is art. My definition of art is something with consideration of aesthetics. By my definition, many things are art. Yours seems more restrictive, but I bet if we unpacked it, it would have inconsistencies.
In the same way that is art. Cultures create stuff, this stuff is held with some aesthetic value. It is art. My definition of art is something with consideration of aesthetics. By my definition, many things are art. Yours seems more restrictive, but I bet if we unpacked it, it would have inconsistencies.
Dear Esther is fan-fucking-tastic. Just reiterating that fact. Please do yourselves a favor and go get it from Steam right now. Yes, it's 10 bucks and yes you might hate it, but life is full of risks. Take one here. If you hate it, send me an angry PM and I'll apologize.
PURPLE FUCKING MONSTER.
I wrote to Walkers asking why the fuck they discontinued beef monster munch then many of us bitched on their website when they returned smaller. Thus they have been reinstated at their proper size, long may they reign and I like to think I played a part in that.
Purple monster is way more ART than orange, orange is a fucking dick, and anyone that says orange monster is better is a fucking brainwashed scientologist.
I wrote to Walkers asking why the fuck they discontinued beef monster munch then many of us bitched on their website when they returned smaller. Thus they have been reinstated at their proper size, long may they reign and I like to think I played a part in that.
Purple monster is way more ART than orange, orange is a fucking dick, and anyone that says orange monster is better is a fucking brainwashed scientologist.
@JoeTheProYaKnow
Your definition has some fuzzy boundaries as well. Sometimes a thing is created with some, but very little regard for aesthetics. I don't even have a working definition of art, but I'm sure I wouldn't put G.I. Joes in the same aesthetic category as Limbo, for example.
Your definition has some fuzzy boundaries as well. Sometimes a thing is created with some, but very little regard for aesthetics. I don't even have a working definition of art, but I'm sure I wouldn't put G.I. Joes in the same aesthetic category as Limbo, for example.
Dear ipad is rules,
I'm sorry I insulted you the other day, you're comment was a bit more subtle and coupled with your carefully crafted pseudonym I actually took you as a genuine real person, I am humbled, may your carefully miss spelled words guide us, like angels to the netherealm. x
I'm sorry I insulted you the other day, you're comment was a bit more subtle and coupled with your carefully crafted pseudonym I actually took you as a genuine real person, I am humbled, may your carefully miss spelled words guide us, like angels to the netherealm. x
Dear Esther is one of the most boring games i have ever seen.
i don't know why people would even call that game art just because you do some strange way of playing by just wandering in the mountains.
and yes thank god for jim :P
i don't know why people would even call that game art just because you do some strange way of playing by just wandering in the mountains.
and yes thank god for jim :P
My new idea is that if we ever debate about something on Podtoid ever again, that we have to do it in funny voices, in order to keep the content entertaining and the mood light.
Stuffy old British explorer and Danny Devito talking about "Art games" would make for a better show then what we did last week.
Stuffy old British explorer and Danny Devito talking about "Art games" would make for a better show then what we did last week.
Indeed, there is nothing in my position that would not allow you to say Limbo is more "aesthetically" pleasing than G.I. Joe figures. We won't go much further than that without being able to discuss how one person can say the opposite, but you get the idea.
well, pretty good, I agree with you.
where can I find the sup holmes episode with tim rogers on the subject? you guys could invinte him for podcast, that would be cool.
where can I find the sup holmes episode with tim rogers on the subject? you guys could invinte him for podcast, that would be cool.
GIJoe ART- Maybe.
Starcom, battle damage He-Man and M.A.S.K ? GTFO- They're art man . Starcom dudes have MAGNETS in their feet, you think that's so they can stick on to spaceships and stuff BULLSHIT that's a representation of humanities desire to stick together and how we're interwoven into even our own creations. Battle damage HE-MAN - He's pretty on the outside, but look - just a small tap and you can see that he's broken inside, and not just a stereotypical 'broken or fixed' scenario- no, there is a third scenario, sort of half broken!!!! ART!!!!! M.A.S.K represents the human desire to be someone else, to drive er trucks that fire big missiles and eject funny little cars and and ... Fuck, I suppose M.A.S.K might not be ART.
Starcom, battle damage He-Man and M.A.S.K ? GTFO- They're art man . Starcom dudes have MAGNETS in their feet, you think that's so they can stick on to spaceships and stuff BULLSHIT that's a representation of humanities desire to stick together and how we're interwoven into even our own creations. Battle damage HE-MAN - He's pretty on the outside, but look - just a small tap and you can see that he's broken inside, and not just a stereotypical 'broken or fixed' scenario- no, there is a third scenario, sort of half broken!!!! ART!!!!! M.A.S.K represents the human desire to be someone else, to drive er trucks that fire big missiles and eject funny little cars and and ... Fuck, I suppose M.A.S.K might not be ART.
Sorry to hear that Jonathan. I haven't paid much attention to the new episode because I'm on finals. I kinda feel that there was a HUGE disagreement. Huh.
@Jonathan Holmes
But last show was great! I thought the mood was great, it simply was a debate....in podtoid. That's something that doesn't happen a lot, I like it and I think it should happen more often.
But last show was great! I thought the mood was great, it simply was a debate....in podtoid. That's something that doesn't happen a lot, I like it and I think it should happen more often.
Screw this.
Art is in everything that is made "artificially" in order to stimulate people's minds.
There is no reason why a red brick should be considered more artsy than an italian plumber with mustache.
I agree there are games that rely more on abstract high context symbolism, and others that are driven by more conservative narration and dialogue instead of audio-visual clues in order to communicate their ideas, but I'd rather classify these different languages into stylistic devices - not genres.
Different genres rely on different stylistic devices, but Art-games are not a genre.
Art is in everything that is made "artificially" in order to stimulate people's minds.
There is no reason why a red brick should be considered more artsy than an italian plumber with mustache.
I agree there are games that rely more on abstract high context symbolism, and others that are driven by more conservative narration and dialogue instead of audio-visual clues in order to communicate their ideas, but I'd rather classify these different languages into stylistic devices - not genres.
Different genres rely on different stylistic devices, but Art-games are not a genre.
@Holmes Yeah I must say that debate on podtoid got kinda depressing! DeVito jerking off to Journey while the unintentionally sarcastic old man tells him its overrated is much more like it
If you want to try Dear Esther, you don't need to buy it. (NO, don't pirate it.) If you have Half-Life 2 the game was originally a mod of it. Look it up. While you're at it check out Korsakovia, it's a horror mod by the same team. It's like a free Amnesia before Amnesia even came out.
I really liked The Stanley Parable too. These are all testaments to the fact that games are still evolving and have some really exciting potential.
I really liked The Stanley Parable too. These are all testaments to the fact that games are still evolving and have some really exciting potential.
I've only recently started to notice the piano track that plays in the background of these episodes. Anyone knows where it's from?
@Holmes
I just think that you should just do etch podcast in a diffrent accent from now on. Id love to hear your irish accent.
I just think that you should just do etch podcast in a diffrent accent from now on. Id love to hear your irish accent.
I honestly skipped over that debate in Podtoid after the first ten minutes. It's just not a topic I find very interesting.
Very good video, Jim. To be honest you did overstate your point a bit, but you argued well. We do know what art games are, despite struggling to define them. We just know them when we see them.
Also, I appreciated your exploration of the stigma associated with the term. Personally I approach art games with extreme caution because I think some developers abuse the concept and just make shlock. But I think it is unfair, considering there are titles that fit the description that were really thought-provoking
Also, I appreciated your exploration of the stigma associated with the term. Personally I approach art games with extreme caution because I think some developers abuse the concept and just make shlock. But I think it is unfair, considering there are titles that fit the description that were really thought-provoking
But gameplay IS part of the "art" of videogames, and it is also inherent to the definition of "videogame". Otherwise, they would be movies. Gameplay is not widely recognized as an artistic creation, and I think that is because it is new compared to imagery, story, music, yadda yadda yadda. The only place before videogames that you saw people designing gameplay was logic puzzles, sports, card games, and board games. And at that time, the people designing those probably didn't think of it as an art form themselves. But with video games, it became clear how many different possibilities for level design, scenarios, objectives, game physics and movement there are. So all games get their worth from their artistic value, whether they are an "art" games or not. This is not about insecurity of videogames as an art form, this is about neuroticism. Why should we illogically name certain games "art games", if other games are art too? It's not angering to use the term, it is just inefficient and vague.
Also, I think the term "art movie" is bullshit for the same reasons.
Also, I think the term "art movie" is bullshit for the same reasons.
That's Purple aka Roast beef monster from the popular 80's advertisements for Monster Munch - The premier baked corn snack of Britain through the 70's -80's and now back on form. Formely made by the company Smiths they were bought out by Walkers snack foods who sullied the brand and only recently reinstated them to their former glory. Monster munch are frankly sacrosanct and anyone who fucks with them will burn in a fiery pit forever reliving their pain, never dying, forever burning.
No Rewq, art movie is not bullshit at all and is entirely feasible. Compare thee 'Stalker''Eraserhead'or 'Solaris' to 'Star wars' or 'Die Hard'. Art movie sometimes relies more on atmosphere, interpretation/stylized photography, confusion and disorientation to convey a mood or a sense that wouldn't be felt through straight storytelling. 'Black Swan', 'We need to talk about Kevin' both recent movies that while being quite mainstream, rely on the juxtaposition of the straight narrative and the obscure to give the viewer a sense of unease. Some people can appreciate it, some people don't have the patience to appreciate the nuances or just see it as bullshit, the same as some gamers don't like ICO. Different strokes etc.
Great example -2001 and 2010. 2010 is 2001 without all the art. It's a fucking abysmal movie.
Great example -2001 and 2010. 2010 is 2001 without all the art. It's a fucking abysmal movie.
@Scaryjim
Had I see that as a kid I would have been terrified to death.
As an adult I'm merely terrified to mostly death.
Had I see that as a kid I would have been terrified to death.
As an adult I'm merely terrified to mostly death.
There's one thing I know about Art Games and that's that I probably wouldn't think twice about punching the developer of one in the face.
Next time I see you Jim im going to bite a chunk of fat off yer tit
Spit it in your face
and say HOW DO LIKE DEM BEEF TIPS ON YO FACE?
Spit it in your face
and say HOW DO LIKE DEM BEEF TIPS ON YO FACE?
I think instead of claling them art games we shoudl call them "experimental" or "concept" games. That way we can avoid confusion on how the word "art" is used. I mean, it is possible for a non "art game" to be art.
I like to think that Ryan Perez is getting angry watching this, his article really pissed me off.
Felicia Day is an art game.
Felicia Day is an art game.
Great episode Jim, very well reasoned.
@Tristrix
You are a star. Everyone, do as the man says and go buy Dear Esther. Right now.
@Jonathan
I know that everyone on Podtoid seems to think that we don't like you when you're being serious, but I'm not sure it's true. I love some serious, thought-provoking conversation to go with my regular Podtoid insanity.
@Tristrix
You are a star. Everyone, do as the man says and go buy Dear Esther. Right now.
@Jonathan
I know that everyone on Podtoid seems to think that we don't like you when you're being serious, but I'm not sure it's true. I love some serious, thought-provoking conversation to go with my regular Podtoid insanity.
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