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Also not to gte off topic Jim, but what is your opinion on redemption? IE, if Chic-Fil-A came out and said after much consideration, they reversed their opinion and support marriage equality, would you support them?
Not unlike a President changing his tune after a series of falling public opinion polls.
Not unlike a President changing his tune after a series of falling public opinion polls.
Nice topic, Jim. Raises some interesting questions about what it takes for a game to evoke emotions, and how the industry is perhaps relying too much on characters looking "real" and not enough on how to actually convey feelings via genuinely good stories. While I personally felt that "Heavy Rain" was a very good game, with a gripping if not particularly original story, you're right: I don't remember it as much as I remember games like "No More Heroes" or (my personal favorite) "Deadly Premonition", which had significantly worse graphics.
Also, that's the single best description of Final Fantasy XIII I've ever heard, and this is coming from a longtime series fan.
Also, that's the single best description of Final Fantasy XIII I've ever heard, and this is coming from a longtime series fan.
I would gladly take a game without photorealisic what not if it sports better gameplay and a good story.
Hell I really can't think of a single AAA title I have bought or been interested in for that matter. I guess the closest would have been Skyward Sword, if that counts as AAA?
I guess Borderlands2 technicly falls in this gen but it certainly doesn't have photo realistic graphics but OMG dat gameplay (if anything like Borderlands the first).
Hell I really can't think of a single AAA title I have bought or been interested in for that matter. I guess the closest would have been Skyward Sword, if that counts as AAA?
I guess Borderlands2 technicly falls in this gen but it certainly doesn't have photo realistic graphics but OMG dat gameplay (if anything like Borderlands the first).
I canīt understand the obsession with graphics nowadays. I always prefer a great cartoony artstyle over anything "phorelistic", when it comes to the visuals. Gears of War is just so unappealing(for me) compared to something like Xenoblade Chronicles, Zelda: SS, Mario Galaxy or even Viva Pinata. Just look at Wind Waker and tell me it doesnīt look amazing (on Dolphin)...but to each their own I guess
OH JIMMOTHY! You've licked your quill and written another insightful witty piece!
Great stuff, I totally agree with what you've said, Titanic for instance had O.K CGI but still is one of the cinematic greats, of which can never be surmounted!
Great stuff, I totally agree with what you've said, Titanic for instance had O.K CGI but still is one of the cinematic greats, of which can never be surmounted!
*slow clap
I think most of us are getting pretty burnt out of the whole "the grass is greener on the other side" and "only next gen-matters" marketing ploy to always keep interested in the latest soulless AAA
While I still like many AAAs, more and more of my gaming dollar goes on indies and small DL titles which are starting to fill the void left by mid tier boxed games
I think most of us are getting pretty burnt out of the whole "the grass is greener on the other side" and "only next gen-matters" marketing ploy to always keep interested in the latest soulless AAA
While I still like many AAAs, more and more of my gaming dollar goes on indies and small DL titles which are starting to fill the void left by mid tier boxed games
"Are photorealistic graphics the key to advancement?"
In my usual fashion, I'll comment without watching the video (because I can't atm):
No, photorealism isn't key to anything more then high costs and long developement cycles -AND it doesn't mean a game will be good at all: Good controls and a great story trump graphics any day.
To use an example that I didn't think I'd use in this life time: Fez is a great game that people love. THe graphics aren't amazing and they don't need to be. But the gameplay and whatever other bits surpass visuals and people love the game for it.
Same can be said for a slew of other indie games, and the whole indie sector proves a point that sometimes far less is much MUCH more.
As for the final question: I find myself connecting far more to animated films (be it anime or pixars works, whatever) then I do with movies that feature actual human beings, most of the time. Its not because I'm a giant man-child he loves him some 'toons, but because, a great deal of the time, the animated feature has so much more emotion written into it and animated then a human being can portray.
Very few games, sadly, have been able to reach that emotional depth, even if you can argue that they're simply cartoons you can control -making these wire frame people, look like real people, is really no better then having badly acted FMV's from 90's adventure games. The emotion just isn't there.
In my usual fashion, I'll comment without watching the video (because I can't atm):
No, photorealism isn't key to anything more then high costs and long developement cycles -AND it doesn't mean a game will be good at all: Good controls and a great story trump graphics any day.
To use an example that I didn't think I'd use in this life time: Fez is a great game that people love. THe graphics aren't amazing and they don't need to be. But the gameplay and whatever other bits surpass visuals and people love the game for it.
Same can be said for a slew of other indie games, and the whole indie sector proves a point that sometimes far less is much MUCH more.
As for the final question: I find myself connecting far more to animated films (be it anime or pixars works, whatever) then I do with movies that feature actual human beings, most of the time. Its not because I'm a giant man-child he loves him some 'toons, but because, a great deal of the time, the animated feature has so much more emotion written into it and animated then a human being can portray.
Very few games, sadly, have been able to reach that emotional depth, even if you can argue that they're simply cartoons you can control -making these wire frame people, look like real people, is really no better then having badly acted FMV's from 90's adventure games. The emotion just isn't there.
This is the exact train of thought i landed on as soon as i heard that statement. (literally first thing to mind was "This guy needs to watch 'up' and shut the fuck up forever."
I am quite the fan of you Jim Sterling, you're a sharp man in my book.
I am quite the fan of you Jim Sterling, you're a sharp man in my book.
Jim I agree with you
I get more emotion from sprites than realist graphics
the games I got the most reaction from this gen
valkyria 1
dragon quest V DS
to the moon pc
tactics advance 2
Yeah sprite games, and an ink art style...........
I dont need realism
I get more emotion from sprites than realist graphics
the games I got the most reaction from this gen
valkyria 1
dragon quest V DS
to the moon pc
tactics advance 2
Yeah sprite games, and an ink art style...........
I dont need realism
There are sections of Phoenix Wright and Infinite Space that I cannot play in public because they reduce me to a sobbing wreck.
Must be them photorealistic graphics. Couldn't possibly be the brilliant writing.
Must be them photorealistic graphics. Couldn't possibly be the brilliant writing.
really? i cant feel emotion over a game without realistic graphics?
i know im not alone in crying over Nei and Alys from the phantasy star series
i know i wasnt the only person that felt sad when Robo's friends rejected and tried to kill him in Chrono Trigger
i cant be the only person that bellowed out aeris' name and cursing sephiroths name in FF7
During the epilogue of baldur's gate 2 im not the only person that claimed that he had something in his eye, especially for viconia's romantic ending.
all these games, and more, had far from realistic graphics but touched everybody that played them. sadly jim is right and that alot of games these days lack that emotional attachment, whether its laziness on the part of the developers or the uncanny valley rearing its head i dunno for sure.
i know im not alone in crying over Nei and Alys from the phantasy star series
i know i wasnt the only person that felt sad when Robo's friends rejected and tried to kill him in Chrono Trigger
i cant be the only person that bellowed out aeris' name and cursing sephiroths name in FF7
During the epilogue of baldur's gate 2 im not the only person that claimed that he had something in his eye, especially for viconia's romantic ending.
all these games, and more, had far from realistic graphics but touched everybody that played them. sadly jim is right and that alot of games these days lack that emotional attachment, whether its laziness on the part of the developers or the uncanny valley rearing its head i dunno for sure.
Jim remember when you featured that actual footage of some guy actually shooting himself in the head. I dont want that in video games.
Just that brief clip you played of Final Fantasy IX brought back a jumble of emotional memories from when I first played that as a kid. As I said in a comment on the article last week, most of the games I remember most vividly from this gen have been ones that achieve something great in terms of story or gameplay, and even more so if they have a unique visual style. I much prefer cel-shading to attempts at photorealism, which often fall dangerously close to the uncanny valley.
Unfortunately, at least for AAA developers, the quest for increasingly lifelike graphics is the siren's song. I'm a little nervous of the sky rocketing budgets so many games have that will never be considered successes by their publishers because they can't possibly justify the money sunk into it based on the return they will receive. There will always be room for the blockbuster games with massive budgets and stunning graphics, but I think we are rapidly approaching carrying capacity on those.
Unfortunately, at least for AAA developers, the quest for increasingly lifelike graphics is the siren's song. I'm a little nervous of the sky rocketing budgets so many games have that will never be considered successes by their publishers because they can't possibly justify the money sunk into it based on the return they will receive. There will always be room for the blockbuster games with massive budgets and stunning graphics, but I think we are rapidly approaching carrying capacity on those.
acetated: Actually, being that videogames are make-believe, photorealistic graphics would be more like actors and special effects. That's not to say it wouldn't be disturbing and something I never want. Seen the 2008 Rambo? Gross dude!
Realism is merely one tool among many.
It shoots up the price of game development thereby hindering the developer's creative options as they bank on the "safe bet" that is not as safe as they think. Creative control should not come from the suits. Oooobviously.
It shoots up the price of game development thereby hindering the developer's creative options as they bank on the "safe bet" that is not as safe as they think. Creative control should not come from the suits. Oooobviously.
jim, please can you start telling us what the games are that you put in your vids? you do a great job of inspiring gamers, but then I don't know what that great looking game is that i saw. what was the game that showed after minecraft? it looked blocky and the guy said "somebody help me"
jim, please can you start telling us what the games are that you put in your vids? you do a great job of inspiring gamers, but then I don't know what that great looking game is that i saw. what was the game that showed after minecraft? it looked blocky and the guy said "somebody help me"
sorry about that double posting, tried to type this message and it went crazy.
personally, I like to play whatever game is 'vibing' right now because i don't have a lot of friends due to unemployment and playing a popular game makes me feel like i am among others. it doesn't matter to me what the game looks like as long as it doesn't make me want to throw myself off a cliff, a-la killzone.
personally, I like to play whatever game is 'vibing' right now because i don't have a lot of friends due to unemployment and playing a popular game makes me feel like i am among others. it doesn't matter to me what the game looks like as long as it doesn't make me want to throw myself off a cliff, a-la killzone.
but I do agree that this console generation is over and we are ready for the next. think of how it feels to be an artist and create something beautiful, then have your work scaled down and degraded because of the limitations of current hardware. fuck that. nothing wrong with demanding better.
Funny it's Crytek saying that. Years on and people still fondly remember Castle Crashers, whereas they have to name their games after their company or else NOBODY would remember or care.
@Startyde Heavy Rain doesn't get guff for "being different" it gets guff for being a mediocre QTE collection whose lead designer is a pretentious self-important ass who'd be making films if he had the talent, but doesn't so he sticks to games because the creative standards are lower.
Photorealism is extremely expensive and easily forgotten. It baffles me that devs are so focused on it when a more distinctive and expressive art style like Jet Set Radio's or Borderlands is far more memorable, interesting, and cheap.
I would rather play the ugliest piece of shit wrapped in brown paper with the best physics ever than the most beautifully glorious vapid title possible. The more graphics you pump into a game, the less gameplay you have left in the shell. Physiorealism trumps photorealism every day.
agree.
in fact most of these "realistic" games will be forgotten in the next gen.
same with the shitty hollywood style music like in Skyrim.
in fact most of these "realistic" games will be forgotten in the next gen.
same with the shitty hollywood style music like in Skyrim.
Excellent video, Jim! The focus of "graphics = good games" is disturbingly high for this generation and I hope that changes in the future.
I disagree on the Chick-fil-a thing. I think that while it's an opinion I certainly don't agree with (people who are gay should be allowed to get married), it's not unfair. They aren't denying homosexuals food or employment, and they have the right to run their business however they see fit and hold whatever opinions they want, as long as they don't actually discriminate.
I disagree on the Chick-fil-a thing. I think that while it's an opinion I certainly don't agree with (people who are gay should be allowed to get married), it's not unfair. They aren't denying homosexuals food or employment, and they have the right to run their business however they see fit and hold whatever opinions they want, as long as they don't actually discriminate.
@CH Gorog Chik-Fil-A may not discriminate in who it sells to or employs but that means nothing since there are laws that prevent that kind of discrimination. Instead, the company donates millions to groups that are actively working to deny Homosexuals equal rights under the law. It would be better if Chik-Fil-A did prevent gay people from eating or working there, it'd be more honest and less harmful.
I remember an article on Metal Gear Rising where people were complaining about how the graphics "were not good enough". If it were up to me realistic graphics should be about as good as Platinum's in house engine. As long as developers keep putting more and more money into making graphics more realistic, less and less atention gets put on more important things.
Same as how others posted, some of the most emotional and memorable games I have played were pretty low tech. Mother 3, No More Heroes, Deadly Premonition, Persona 4, all of them made on "outdated" or "below average" tech. I've never understood how graphics can be outdated. Sure, there are bad graphics, like if a game has too many jaggies or way too much bloom, or realy shitty textures. But if it is just "outdated", then what's wrong? If I close my eyes and pretend that it is 2005, Deadly Premonition looks like an original Xbox game with realy good graphics. I guess I'll never understand graphic whores.
Same as how others posted, some of the most emotional and memorable games I have played were pretty low tech. Mother 3, No More Heroes, Deadly Premonition, Persona 4, all of them made on "outdated" or "below average" tech. I've never understood how graphics can be outdated. Sure, there are bad graphics, like if a game has too many jaggies or way too much bloom, or realy shitty textures. But if it is just "outdated", then what's wrong? If I close my eyes and pretend that it is 2005, Deadly Premonition looks like an original Xbox game with realy good graphics. I guess I'll never understand graphic whores.
@ the silent comentator I agree with everything you're saying, if the game is good it doesn't matter how it looks. The push for more realistic graphics makes games ever more expensive to produce, thus limiting their scope while making publishers less willing to take chances on new series or within existing series.
That, plus super whiz bang graphics are expensive, taking resources away from more important aspects of the experience. The best graphics in the world can't wring an ounce of emotion out of a player if the writing isn't up to snuff, the gameplay is sub-par, the voice acting is off and the character and environments, while pretty, are otherwise dull and lifeless.
Photorealism can only bring us games that are less ambitious, less emotional and ultimately, less fun.
That, plus super whiz bang graphics are expensive, taking resources away from more important aspects of the experience. The best graphics in the world can't wring an ounce of emotion out of a player if the writing isn't up to snuff, the gameplay is sub-par, the voice acting is off and the character and environments, while pretty, are otherwise dull and lifeless.
Photorealism can only bring us games that are less ambitious, less emotional and ultimately, less fun.
@donmilliken I remember watching TotalBiscuit's playthrough of the first three hours of Final Fantasy XIII-2. First few minutes I thought "wow this game is looks amazing!". After part six I thought "Oh god why am I watching this?!". Three Goddamn hours into the game and I still don't know what is going on, the voiceacting is still horrendous, the writing is abysmall, and I would rather the main characters die than continue winning! If a developer can have good writing, characters, story, AND good graphics then go on ahead! But if not then I'm certainly not going near it.
The little imp at the end of the video is adorable and life like, and it's made of freaking solid black primary shapes. The faces in LA Noire were derp-scary. It was like, everyone was Clayface and their faces boiled over everytime I hit a sensitive topic.
As I said in the previous article:
"You know the bit in Skyward Sword when *SPOILERS* you go through the time gate and finally meet up with Zelda again? Yeah, that little exchange had tears streaming from my eyeholes and that was nothing more than cartoony graphics and text on the screen. Thus, Jim is correct, good writing will always trump graphics, period."
"You know the bit in Skyward Sword when *SPOILERS* you go through the time gate and finally meet up with Zelda again? Yeah, that little exchange had tears streaming from my eyeholes and that was nothing more than cartoony graphics and text on the screen. Thus, Jim is correct, good writing will always trump graphics, period."
In the world of art photo realism does nothing for me, just like in video games I can respect the technique and time it take to make it but I will only glance at it in a museum. The same is true with what I guess would be the opposite in Abstract. Where you could argue Abstration lacks Technique and Skill, Realism lacks Heart and Creativity.
ALSO PHOTOGRAPHY IS SHIT GO KILL YOURSELF CUNTS!
on the topic of CHIKFILA....seriously what do people expect from a company THAT IS CLOSED ON SUNDAY IN OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH? not saying its right but really people use your fucking brains
ALSO PHOTOGRAPHY IS SHIT GO KILL YOURSELF CUNTS!
on the topic of CHIKFILA....seriously what do people expect from a company THAT IS CLOSED ON SUNDAY IN OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH? not saying its right but really people use your fucking brains
A few notes on this most games that go for the brownish look don't attempt photo realism at all, and actually make the world uglier than it has to be, color is part of the world stripping it makes it look less realistic if anything, same with bf3's horrible blue on everything and over saturation.
Second the statement crytek made was actually quite reasonable for them to say, crytek is primarily an engine designing company always far more focussed on the technical side of things than anything else sure they made some good games with their tech like the first far-cry and the first crysis but story, emotions and so on have never been their thing so for a studio like that a maxed out system technically is really just the end of the line for them its just how crytek works.
Second the statement crytek made was actually quite reasonable for them to say, crytek is primarily an engine designing company always far more focussed on the technical side of things than anything else sure they made some good games with their tech like the first far-cry and the first crysis but story, emotions and so on have never been their thing so for a studio like that a maxed out system technically is really just the end of the line for them its just how crytek works.
Minecraft default graphics and art style gets bland and boring quickly without mods, also La Noire has no multiplayer, most memorable and fun moments in minecraft are experienced in the multiplayer and in the community that supports it so that's was an unfair comparison.
Bravo Jim, definitely one of your best.
I still maintain that I feel more for the small grouping of pixels that make up the characters in Final Fantasy 4 or 6 than 99% of characters in games today, or just games themselves for that matter. In my opinion, (and not trying to flame bait here) Heavy Rain is proof that great graphics do not equal engaging characters or emotional resonance.
In fact, most of the games this generation that made an emotional impact on me were Wii games. Fragile Dreams and Xenoblade Chronicles especially. And to echo jokeriswild up there, the scene he described from Skyward Sword and the scene soon after where SPOILER... Fi says farewell, had me welling up pretty hard. And that's with the cartoony art style and NO VOICE ACTING as well. And I'm not very far into it yet, but Kingdom Hearts 3D may end up on that list as well, far from photo-realistic.
The only HD console game that's gripped me like the aforementioned games did, is Lost Odyssey, but that wasn't because of the graphics, it was the deep, endearing characters and the PHENOMENAL writing. That's what matters dammit!
I still maintain that I feel more for the small grouping of pixels that make up the characters in Final Fantasy 4 or 6 than 99% of characters in games today, or just games themselves for that matter. In my opinion, (and not trying to flame bait here) Heavy Rain is proof that great graphics do not equal engaging characters or emotional resonance.
In fact, most of the games this generation that made an emotional impact on me were Wii games. Fragile Dreams and Xenoblade Chronicles especially. And to echo jokeriswild up there, the scene he described from Skyward Sword and the scene soon after where SPOILER... Fi says farewell, had me welling up pretty hard. And that's with the cartoony art style and NO VOICE ACTING as well. And I'm not very far into it yet, but Kingdom Hearts 3D may end up on that list as well, far from photo-realistic.
The only HD console game that's gripped me like the aforementioned games did, is Lost Odyssey, but that wasn't because of the graphics, it was the deep, endearing characters and the PHENOMENAL writing. That's what matters dammit!
First of all, as a sociopath, I kind of resent being lumped in with dull and uncreative writers simply because I have no normal human range of emotion or sense of morality. Aside from that, spot on big man. This is one of my favorites so far.
I find it so funny and sad how graphics have become such a priority in consoles this generation (and maybe last?). I used to have arguments with the PC gamers at school 20 years ago about this. I was a 100% console gamer. I loved the gameplay, the characters, the controllers. When I had these arguments we could always agree to disagree about the things I loved, but the stumbling block would always be about graphics: number of colours, resolution etc. And all I could say was that I still preferred the way Sonic looked to Dune 2 or whatever.
I can't help but feel that the focus on graphics has been a huge contributing factor in the transformation of consoles into crappy PCs.
What's great is that in spite of this, or maybe because of this, there have been more low tech, beautiful, emotionally engaging games this generation than ever before. Its lead to greater diversification because the focus on super realism by some (usually with the money) has left so many areas open to smaller, more artistic teams.
I can't help but feel that the focus on graphics has been a huge contributing factor in the transformation of consoles into crappy PCs.
What's great is that in spite of this, or maybe because of this, there have been more low tech, beautiful, emotionally engaging games this generation than ever before. Its lead to greater diversification because the focus on super realism by some (usually with the money) has left so many areas open to smaller, more artistic teams.
Modern standards and the increasing similarity to films has made game developers strive to mimic reality. They're afraid of letting players experience things like clipping, bugs, or unrealistic interactions. They end up crippling their games and forcing people down a thin path instead.
As a game designer, artist and long-time gamer, I personally feel that the push for realism has made games much more limited and boring. Games were a lot more fun when people had more freedom to screw around, and when developers went out of their way to exaggerate and make things unrealistic for the sake of entertainment.
In terms of game design, there are a lot of things that simply don't work well as game elements, especially when trying to be realistic. There's a fine line between fun gameplay and realism, and at some point, you can't have it both ways. Examples include the magical storage chest, herbs and rooster keys in Resident Evil, or health regeneration in first person shooters.
People don't need realism, they simply need to be able to accept and believe the experience as a whole. There are many ways of achieving that, whether it's appealing art style, captivating story and characters, or fun gameplay. All of these can be done well and stand on their own without reliance on realistic visuals.
Realism is just one of those ways to help people accept and believe. However, it's probably the least creative and possibly the most difficult to achieve. Reality is a lot more complex than computers or even humans can comprehend and represent.
I'd go so far as to suggest that realism mainly appeals to people who are desperate for a serious, realistic experience but lack the imagination or open-mindedness to accept stylised, exaggerated or non-realistic presentation. It's likely along the same lines as people who were raised to believe and feel that animated "cartoons" cannot tell a serious story. The rest are probably people who simply appreciate the power of modern computer generated visuals.
As a game designer, artist and long-time gamer, I personally feel that the push for realism has made games much more limited and boring. Games were a lot more fun when people had more freedom to screw around, and when developers went out of their way to exaggerate and make things unrealistic for the sake of entertainment.
In terms of game design, there are a lot of things that simply don't work well as game elements, especially when trying to be realistic. There's a fine line between fun gameplay and realism, and at some point, you can't have it both ways. Examples include the magical storage chest, herbs and rooster keys in Resident Evil, or health regeneration in first person shooters.
People don't need realism, they simply need to be able to accept and believe the experience as a whole. There are many ways of achieving that, whether it's appealing art style, captivating story and characters, or fun gameplay. All of these can be done well and stand on their own without reliance on realistic visuals.
Realism is just one of those ways to help people accept and believe. However, it's probably the least creative and possibly the most difficult to achieve. Reality is a lot more complex than computers or even humans can comprehend and represent.
I'd go so far as to suggest that realism mainly appeals to people who are desperate for a serious, realistic experience but lack the imagination or open-mindedness to accept stylised, exaggerated or non-realistic presentation. It's likely along the same lines as people who were raised to believe and feel that animated "cartoons" cannot tell a serious story. The rest are probably people who simply appreciate the power of modern computer generated visuals.
The problem with video game photorealism is that it will never be a perfect representation of real life. There will always be some flaw in the presentation that makes it feel off, sort of like the face on a Japanese robot. Sure, it looks like a human female but the movements and overall presentation just ends up freaking you out.
This is why games that eschew photorealism are able to generate more of an emotional response. People have already bought into the different art style and aren't yanked out of the immersion when a character model's arm doesn't bend the right way.
Photorealism in games does have it's place though, like in first person shooters where it's pretty much all about the war porn and there isn't really a story to be conveyed. Other than that it just isn't necessary to make a great game.
This is why games that eschew photorealism are able to generate more of an emotional response. People have already bought into the different art style and aren't yanked out of the immersion when a character model's arm doesn't bend the right way.
Photorealism in games does have it's place though, like in first person shooters where it's pretty much all about the war porn and there isn't really a story to be conveyed. Other than that it just isn't necessary to make a great game.
Think the only video game to make me cry like a giant man child was FF7. May have been a few others but cant honestly remember. To this day even watching Advent Children i tear up when i see Aerith. Ill take FF7 and its ability to move the very essence of my damn soul with its characters and story over FF13, with its hours and hours of nothing but art department wacking off on my TV screen.
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