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If they allow us to skip cinematic scenes with a start/select/back whatever button press I'm all for it.
I dislike playing/replaying games and getting forced to watch cutscenes every time.
Time to watch your JimQ now.
I dislike playing/replaying games and getting forced to watch cutscenes every time.
Time to watch your JimQ now.
Did this really need to be said? I mean, were people really bitching about this topic enough to warrant a response?
I'm not criticizing or anything I just... I didn't realize people were actually complaining about this. It's sad to have to point out the blatantly fucking obvious like this.
I'm not criticizing or anything I just... I didn't realize people were actually complaining about this. It's sad to have to point out the blatantly fucking obvious like this.
I was thinking along these lines just last night, about how important it is for the pace of the cinemas to match that of the player's direct involvement.
Example; the cutscenes seemed much easier to watch in the first Mass Effect, simply because it's a slower paced game. Now that I'm on ME3, I find myself want to skip much of the exposition to get back to the fast paced shooty parts.
Example; the cutscenes seemed much easier to watch in the first Mass Effect, simply because it's a slower paced game. Now that I'm on ME3, I find myself want to skip much of the exposition to get back to the fast paced shooty parts.
Yeah sounds about right, then again I kind of agree with Tristix, you should respond to today, not to yesterday.
@@Tristrix: Perhaps you missed the numerous articles he showed in the episode where people have been discussing the issue?
I think it's worth noting that SOME cutscenes ARE bad. The problem is a combination of how bad cutscenes have tarnished the reputation of all cutscenes, and how some players simply don't prefer cutscenes at all (and lack the ability to separate their own preferences from objective fact).
I think it's worth noting that SOME cutscenes ARE bad. The problem is a combination of how bad cutscenes have tarnished the reputation of all cutscenes, and how some players simply don't prefer cutscenes at all (and lack the ability to separate their own preferences from objective fact).
Well, the beauty about games is that almost anything can work if it's well implemented.
Even kinect. ;)
Even kinect. ;)
Maybe it is because Yahtzee belly-aches so much about cutscenes and Jim has a show on the Escapist too now, he can't help but be aware of someone constantly disparaging non-interactive cutscenes on a regular basis.
Whether he realizes it or not, Yahtzee's own games could probably stand to have a cutscene or two thrown into the mix to improve them a smidge.
Using text-boxes to convey the story makes the developer no better than a mere novelist or comment section user.
Whether he realizes it or not, Yahtzee's own games could probably stand to have a cutscene or two thrown into the mix to improve them a smidge.
Using text-boxes to convey the story makes the developer no better than a mere novelist or comment section user.
@butthole There's room enough for all kinds of storytelling. It does not only have to be touchy freely stuff.
If you're gonna talk Persona, at least be able to acknowledge amidst good character development it is centered around teenagers that routinely bicker and tease each other and go fight shadows inside a TV to save the world.
If you're gonna talk Persona, at least be able to acknowledge amidst good character development it is centered around teenagers that routinely bicker and tease each other and go fight shadows inside a TV to save the world.
I love a good cutscene. I don't mind that if at first I can't skip them, but when replaying I better be able to. Same for dialogue. But just like for every media there is 2 or 3 bad ones for every good one. Do people stop watching movies or tv just because of a few bad shows or films? While I'm sure there are folks like that, generally I'd guess not. So why hate all cutscenes period?
Developers who rely too heavily on cut scenes are in the wrong industry. If it feels like I'm "watching" a game more than playing it the balance is obviously fucked. Yes it's a tool- but a tool too easily exploited.
i like cut scenes like how they are done in uncharted and batman. where its mostly in game and doesnt take away from the gameplay by cutting to a scene then loading, back to the game, then loading to a cut scene.
Another good episode. I've always enjoyed cutscenes ever since my older brother showed me Final Fantasy VII for the first time. I like games that tell story during gameplay (Kid Icarus: Uprising), but I don't mind watching characters interact and push the story forward (Final Fantasy X/X-2/XIII-2). Also on the subject, I don't mind games with no or little voiceacting; gets me to read more often than I usually do.
Honestly, I can't stand when games don't use them.
Half Life in particular, it in fact breaks my immersion whenever an event happens. I don't like having to flail the camera about trying to figure out where the game wants me to look at. But that's just me.
Half Life in particular, it in fact breaks my immersion whenever an event happens. I don't like having to flail the camera about trying to figure out where the game wants me to look at. But that's just me.
I don't normally mind cutscene and will sit through them fine for the most part. Its only annoying to me when a cutscene suddenly turns into a qte (RE4 springs to mind). That takes me out of the game more than the cutscene does.
I dislike it when I must sit through the same scene after a death on a hard level. KH 1 was like that, but when 2 rolled around they gave you the option to skip it. Other than that I actually like cut scenes because of the way they help convey the story. FF7 would have never been the same if Arieths death was not portrayed in that cut scene.
But yeah shippable cutscenes are a must, and no matter how short the cutscene is a pause button would be good to.
It's the thought that counts, Jim.
Keep in mind that I, for one, am entirely above such human dogma as sin. So, although your sacrifice would be for naught in my case, I do appreciate the thought that you would be there to "take one for the team" should the opportunity arise.
Hmm? Cutscenes? Well if done properly then they can be a boon to the general flow of a game or perhaps a fun way to elaborate on storyline.
But one thing absolutely must be taken into consideration when using cutscenes. And that is that the average attention span of most individuals is approximately (insert obscenely low figure here.)
The one technique that can make a long cutscene easier to digest, and one that the Japanese have seemed to hit on again and again: TITS and occasionally ASS.
I'm not trying to say that you can't be successful without such elements but in the long run all you're looking at is the bottom line.
So, in other words: TITS AND/OR GTFO
Keep in mind that I, for one, am entirely above such human dogma as sin. So, although your sacrifice would be for naught in my case, I do appreciate the thought that you would be there to "take one for the team" should the opportunity arise.
Hmm? Cutscenes? Well if done properly then they can be a boon to the general flow of a game or perhaps a fun way to elaborate on storyline.
But one thing absolutely must be taken into consideration when using cutscenes. And that is that the average attention span of most individuals is approximately (insert obscenely low figure here.)
The one technique that can make a long cutscene easier to digest, and one that the Japanese have seemed to hit on again and again: TITS and occasionally ASS.
I'm not trying to say that you can't be successful without such elements but in the long run all you're looking at is the bottom line.
So, in other words: TITS AND/OR GTFO
Blizzard had some mighty good cutscenes back in the day that were rewards for getting up to a certain point in the game.
I've heard people complain about them, but it's usually that they have little patience for watching a video for a minute or two and just will have none of it. Or they feel it breaks their immersion, which really depends on when and where they do it.
I guess it depends on how it's done, and how much. Metal Gear Solid 4 was supposedly so bad about it they called it Movie Gear Solid.
I've heard people complain about them, but it's usually that they have little patience for watching a video for a minute or two and just will have none of it. Or they feel it breaks their immersion, which really depends on when and where they do it.
I guess it depends on how it's done, and how much. Metal Gear Solid 4 was supposedly so bad about it they called it Movie Gear Solid.
The only thing I ask from developers using cutscenes is to make them skippable and hard to skip accidentally.
Thank you Jim for this. And yes it is still a very real issue. I recently took a Video game history class which also featured an online forum on the class site and there are still many pretentious people bickering about Cutscenes. And this goes for the other gamers too.
Pushing for games to not use CutScenes...because they are a cheap way to communicate story emotion...is like telling Movies not to use music anymore...because the characters and camerawork aren't doing the job well enough (because visuals are the fundamentals of cinema as interactivity is to gaming). In that case you're no better than the old people of the 1930s who wanted to rule out sync-sound out of film.
In 1998 I believe Half-life and Metal Gear Solid brought 2 extremes of game narrative to the table. Both were totally engaged with what they do and that's why both worked wonderfully (I'd also mention Ocarina of Time as it represents a median of various old-school and new-school storytelling game styles from text boxes to embedded narrative).
Some are fine with cutscenes as long as they are skippable. To me they are either playing games with horrible scene direction or they are missing out on crucial elements of the experience. Games like Uncharted would lose a lot of charm if you took out its cutscenes. Don't skip them guys, at least on first playthrough. In fact, a game like Half Life or other "cutscene-free" games contain many unskippable (and undeniably boring on 2nd playthrough) sequences where you're stuck in a room where characters talk and all you can do is fidget around until they finish.
Games like Metal Gear Solid (especially MGS) don't "rely" on cutscenes so much as they revel in them. I absolutely love Kojima's blend of cinematic storytelling and stealth-action gameplay. Both relatively slow-paced processes, but hey if you're impatient then you're missing out on a lot of long-winded art in other mediums too. He clearly loves the cutscene as more than just a last resort, it's literally a style. Like Tarantino's movies not giving a damn about plot pacing as he lets his characters talk, it is nevertheless well-directed and interesting for development. And further down his career they just keep doing it cuz there are fans that dig it and thats what counts.
@AngrySouske
Actually many people are annoyed at QTE now but back when RE4 and GoW popularized/coined it in 2005 they worked miraculously because they fit. GoW fit for the gory death sequences that defined Kratos' killings. And Re4 worked because it was a horror game that made you on your toes at all times. Now QTE cutscenes are often gimmicks in other unfitting games that just copy the success of RE4 and GoW.
Pushing for games to not use CutScenes...because they are a cheap way to communicate story emotion...is like telling Movies not to use music anymore...because the characters and camerawork aren't doing the job well enough (because visuals are the fundamentals of cinema as interactivity is to gaming). In that case you're no better than the old people of the 1930s who wanted to rule out sync-sound out of film.
In 1998 I believe Half-life and Metal Gear Solid brought 2 extremes of game narrative to the table. Both were totally engaged with what they do and that's why both worked wonderfully (I'd also mention Ocarina of Time as it represents a median of various old-school and new-school storytelling game styles from text boxes to embedded narrative).
Some are fine with cutscenes as long as they are skippable. To me they are either playing games with horrible scene direction or they are missing out on crucial elements of the experience. Games like Uncharted would lose a lot of charm if you took out its cutscenes. Don't skip them guys, at least on first playthrough. In fact, a game like Half Life or other "cutscene-free" games contain many unskippable (and undeniably boring on 2nd playthrough) sequences where you're stuck in a room where characters talk and all you can do is fidget around until they finish.
Games like Metal Gear Solid (especially MGS) don't "rely" on cutscenes so much as they revel in them. I absolutely love Kojima's blend of cinematic storytelling and stealth-action gameplay. Both relatively slow-paced processes, but hey if you're impatient then you're missing out on a lot of long-winded art in other mediums too. He clearly loves the cutscene as more than just a last resort, it's literally a style. Like Tarantino's movies not giving a damn about plot pacing as he lets his characters talk, it is nevertheless well-directed and interesting for development. And further down his career they just keep doing it cuz there are fans that dig it and thats what counts.
@AngrySouske
Actually many people are annoyed at QTE now but back when RE4 and GoW popularized/coined it in 2005 they worked miraculously because they fit. GoW fit for the gory death sequences that defined Kratos' killings. And Re4 worked because it was a horror game that made you on your toes at all times. Now QTE cutscenes are often gimmicks in other unfitting games that just copy the success of RE4 and GoW.
I like cut scenes. Unless I'm on the third or fourth attempt at a given mission, I'll watch them even in games I've played multiple times. But then, I also tend to re-watch movies or TV shows I've seen before without fast-forwarding through them to the interesting parts. Unless the interesting parts are jiggling.
When I think of good cutscenes, I think of the the Gamecube REs with pre-rendered backgrounds that were specifically rendered for those few moments they were used. It not only made the cutscenes look unique to the rest of the game, but also meant that specific blocking and lighting was used to make the scene that much more special.
The worst example of cutscenes I can think of is MGS2, with both important and useless information jumbled together in a mess of frustratingly long and sometimes unecessary cutscenes.
To me, cutscenes are an excellent tool, but you have to know when, how, and why to use them.
The worst example of cutscenes I can think of is MGS2, with both important and useless information jumbled together in a mess of frustratingly long and sometimes unecessary cutscenes.
To me, cutscenes are an excellent tool, but you have to know when, how, and why to use them.
I think the real point is that no one method of storytelling should be default. They all work well in certain situations and should be tastefully applied where and when they work best. And who's to say that you can't have highly cinematic and directed sequence in-game, without taking away player control or punishing them for doing nothing?
It all comes down to good game design. Judging from the Bioshock: Infinite demo, Irrational has nailed this one on the head.
It all comes down to good game design. Judging from the Bioshock: Infinite demo, Irrational has nailed this one on the head.
The cutscene debate is like 1st-person vs 3rd-person perspective. Each has its place in certain game types.
The problem arises when developers try to mix things together that simply don't mix. For example, if you want me to feel like I *am* the character and immerse me in the world, don't suddenly drag me into 3rd person in jarring fashion for a cutscene or QTE, etc.
Be CONSISTENT in your design.
Artistic freedom is great, but the best artists have a consistent vision that is reflected in their work.
The problem arises when developers try to mix things together that simply don't mix. For example, if you want me to feel like I *am* the character and immerse me in the world, don't suddenly drag me into 3rd person in jarring fashion for a cutscene or QTE, etc.
Be CONSISTENT in your design.
Artistic freedom is great, but the best artists have a consistent vision that is reflected in their work.
THANK YOU, JIM.
Jesus Christ, the people who rant about cutscenes. I'll rant to death about bad cutscenes, or overuse of cutscenes, or cutscenes that show my character doing things he or she can't in-game (I seem to remember one game where a character was fenced in during gameplay, but then the same character hopped a fence like it was fucking nothing in a cutscene), but cutscenes are not a failure, any more than comics that cut to pages with a single striking image and prose narrative as a sidebar are a failure. It's just another way to tell the story.
Jesus Christ, the people who rant about cutscenes. I'll rant to death about bad cutscenes, or overuse of cutscenes, or cutscenes that show my character doing things he or she can't in-game (I seem to remember one game where a character was fenced in during gameplay, but then the same character hopped a fence like it was fucking nothing in a cutscene), but cutscenes are not a failure, any more than comics that cut to pages with a single striking image and prose narrative as a sidebar are a failure. It's just another way to tell the story.
I've been reading a lot of books about writing and design for video games lately and I noticed that across all of them, though to a varying degree, they emphasize cut scenes should be avoided because it disrupts the player's immersion. I found this very surprising because I've rarely felt like a cut scene was taking me out of the game, especially if the cut scene flows well after whatever sequence causes it. A poorly constructed or placed cut scene, sure, but that's true of any element of a book, game, movie, etc. I also agree with your point about rewards, that's often how I view them, especially in a story heavy game.
Addendum:
Would it be terribly gauche of me to pimp my own piece on the subject? You can find it here:
http://ffordesoon.tumblr.com/post/17208962826/a-rant-about-games-criticism-that-only-i-am-interested#disqus_thread
Would it be terribly gauche of me to pimp my own piece on the subject? You can find it here:
http://ffordesoon.tumblr.com/post/17208962826/a-rant-about-games-criticism-that-only-i-am-interested#disqus_thread
I think some people just rail on cutscenes because interactivity is unique to games, and anything that isn’t unique to games isn’t pushing their games are art button.
They’re an important tool though, especially for pacing, like Jim said you need a bit of motivation and gearing up before a boss fight and a “breather” afterwards, they’re a tool for evoking emotion from the player, and developers are free to use all the tools at their disposal.
They’re an important tool though, especially for pacing, like Jim said you need a bit of motivation and gearing up before a boss fight and a “breather” afterwards, they’re a tool for evoking emotion from the player, and developers are free to use all the tools at their disposal.
I am personally fine with cutscenes however out of engine cutscenes can be a pain in some cases as they look very different from the game itself which kind of breaks it.
Take for example the cutscenes in Deus Ex: Human Revolution on pc at least those looked worse than the actual game itself as they where badly compressed and low ress but even if they where not they look very different from the game itself which would have made them look off which is totally unneeded with such a good looking game despite the low poligon count (not so round round objects). Than again there are situations where out of engine cutscenes are the best option which is mostly in 2d games.
Take for example the cutscenes in Deus Ex: Human Revolution on pc at least those looked worse than the actual game itself as they where badly compressed and low ress but even if they where not they look very different from the game itself which would have made them look off which is totally unneeded with such a good looking game despite the low poligon count (not so round round objects). Than again there are situations where out of engine cutscenes are the best option which is mostly in 2d games.
Every tool has a time and a place it is just some tools don't need to be used so often to get the job done. If a cutscene takes away more than it gives I think it is failed but if it compliments the gameplay and gives more than it takes then it has done its job well. I have never liked cutscenes that offer the kind of gameplay I can't enjoy in the game though. If I can't do it, don't show it to me unless you want me irritated. Hell, if the cutscene starts before you knock a dude out, let me do that and then start the scene afterwards. Otherwise you waste my time on watching things that are more fun to do instead of telling me a better story.
I don't like the killing animations in Skyrim mainly due to the fact that I would much rather do those moves than fight with clunky weapon tactics. I wish I could cut off heads just by swinging my weapon at their necks but regional damage and limb removal aren't coded in.
I don't like the killing animations in Skyrim mainly due to the fact that I would much rather do those moves than fight with clunky weapon tactics. I wish I could cut off heads just by swinging my weapon at their necks but regional damage and limb removal aren't coded in.
I'm against (for the most part) the limbo zone between cut scenes and interactivity: Quick Time events. Most often I find myself wanting these to just be awesome cut scenes that had more time hand crafting them rather than shoe horning in single button press interactive moments. They don't make me feel engaged and quite often distract from what is going on as you are waiting in anticipation for the next button press. There are games such as God of War that incorporate quick time events well but often the games that do, they incorporate them into an action sequences and not during an acted out plot point. I am against unskippable cut scenes however. There are too many games that have contained an unskippable cut scene before a critical moment where you usually will not survive only to have to sit through the whole thing again after continuing.
In my opinion, most people who dont like cutscenes dont have patience at all. Cutscenes help develop the story of a game.
You nailed it Jim.
Honestly, it's just another way that western developers have tried to cut down Japanese developers by demonizing their strengths. It would take a person of extraordinary stupidity to look at a well done cutscene like the kind that have been in most big Japanese games and say, "you know what? I hate cinematography, editing, directing, and all aspects of professional filmmaking. They should just give some random guy a handheld shaky cam and have him run around in the room." Yet, this is exactly what all these western devs have been saying. It takes quite a bit of skill to make a kick ass cutscene, with a great eye for shots, pacing, and camera angles. The scene has to be good enough that you don't even mind that you're not controlling, you're just blown away while you watch it - and that's pretty much exactly how it's always been with Japanese games. It was a reward, it was one of the major highlights in fact. Yet, I have heard tons, and tons of people tear down cutscenes as backwards, dated, and old, and it really is nothing but yet another shitty angle of attack that western devs use to demonize everything associated with Japanese games.
Akira Kurosawa, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, you know that great scene that you spent time envisioning in your mind shot for shot to frame it just the right way, that one you spent months on to make sure it was just the way you wanted it, well fuck that, you should have just given a handheld cam to the audience and shot it like Blair Witch Project. I mean, what the fuck? That literally is among the stupidest things that anyone can say, ever, about anything.
P.S. funny bit about Easter at the beginning. I laughed.
Honestly, it's just another way that western developers have tried to cut down Japanese developers by demonizing their strengths. It would take a person of extraordinary stupidity to look at a well done cutscene like the kind that have been in most big Japanese games and say, "you know what? I hate cinematography, editing, directing, and all aspects of professional filmmaking. They should just give some random guy a handheld shaky cam and have him run around in the room." Yet, this is exactly what all these western devs have been saying. It takes quite a bit of skill to make a kick ass cutscene, with a great eye for shots, pacing, and camera angles. The scene has to be good enough that you don't even mind that you're not controlling, you're just blown away while you watch it - and that's pretty much exactly how it's always been with Japanese games. It was a reward, it was one of the major highlights in fact. Yet, I have heard tons, and tons of people tear down cutscenes as backwards, dated, and old, and it really is nothing but yet another shitty angle of attack that western devs use to demonize everything associated with Japanese games.
Akira Kurosawa, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, you know that great scene that you spent time envisioning in your mind shot for shot to frame it just the right way, that one you spent months on to make sure it was just the way you wanted it, well fuck that, you should have just given a handheld cam to the audience and shot it like Blair Witch Project. I mean, what the fuck? That literally is among the stupidest things that anyone can say, ever, about anything.
P.S. funny bit about Easter at the beginning. I laughed.
I ask you what is the difference with a cutscene and playing through a scripted game. Like anything if overused they loose their effect but when done properly they can make a good game that much better.
Absolutely. I love sitting back and enjoying a beautiful, long cutscene (I'm looking at you Xenosaga and Metal Gear!), and this whole "it's a game so we must be pressing buttons every single second) trend that's become popular in recent years is, to me, just plain bizarre.
Thank-you Jim for willing to have died for our sins, had we asked.
I didn't know cutscenes were under attack and only a retard would argue they have no role in videogames in general. When I was a wee lad, I played the shit out of the Ninja Gaiden trilogy on the NES and always looked forward to the cutscenes in between missions - it was my jam.
I didn't know cutscenes were under attack and only a retard would argue they have no role in videogames in general. When I was a wee lad, I played the shit out of the Ninja Gaiden trilogy on the NES and always looked forward to the cutscenes in between missions - it was my jam.
This this this this this this this this this.
This. God damn. Video.
I think some developers have been jaded by all the inspiration taken by movies, and feel that the only path to glory for video games is through 100% interaction. Interaction can do some really awesome things in storytelling, but I don't think it should be applied universally. I wouldn't want all games to only tell their story interactively, either. This video put words to all of the reasons why I feel that way.
This. God damn. Video.
I think some developers have been jaded by all the inspiration taken by movies, and feel that the only path to glory for video games is through 100% interaction. Interaction can do some really awesome things in storytelling, but I don't think it should be applied universally. I wouldn't want all games to only tell their story interactively, either. This video put words to all of the reasons why I feel that way.
Another good point Jim, this topic is almost always discussed in the negative but I couldn't imagine a game like GTAIV working well without it's cutscenes.
Like most I think those that call for them to be removed altogether have VERY short attention spans and should just stick to CoD multiplayer or whatever.
Like most I think those that call for them to be removed altogether have VERY short attention spans and should just stick to CoD multiplayer or whatever.
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