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To reiterate, there's nothing wrong with having a character that's supposed to be a little annoying or unlikable. It's when the character has no redeeming qualities to balance out the bad, or when the character is unintentionally bad/annoying that problems arise. If Tidus (and pretty much half of the cast and most of the plot) had been better written and developed, I bet that FFX's ending would have made me sad, instead of making me glad that Tidus was gone forever (until X-2 retconned it out of nowhere, stupid Squeenix writers >.>). There is potential for a good story buried underneath it all, but the way it's presented and directed is just done poorly.
Dude, Squall gets better. Slowly, but it happens. And it doesn't happen like "poof" but all the things that he is called for AND called out on gradually develop him into a brave leader worthy of his Lion pendant icon. His arc is especially interesting considering the story of his father is told in flashbacks with an opposite tone.
In fact, FF8's ending is my fav ending in gaming and it is a brilliantly directed happy one. The final few seconds after the credits are magical.
In fact, FF8's ending is my fav ending in gaming and it is a brilliantly directed happy one. The final few seconds after the credits are magical.
Persona 3 and 4 do a great job of this. Between all of the fighting eldritch manifestations of human faults and metaphorically shooting themselves in the head, both games take time out for the characters to do normal, everyday things and actually get to know one another and loads of other people in town as well. It comes off much more naturally then the way Final Fantasy characters band together, which comes off more like dudes splitting cab fare (hey, you heading to Lindblum? Mind if I hitch?) than actually giving a shit about saving the world up until the shit-just-got-real event of each game.
Actually taking some time out of the schedule to have the characters do unheroic things makes them so much more relatable, to the point where they're introspective enough to realize that shadow demon hunting doesn't have many real world applications so they still have to cram for midterms. It's not often that video game characters think about life after taking down the big bad.
It's not that all games need comedy to offset tragedy. All games need banality to offset badassedness. Most games don't offer any more backstory or motivation for the leads other than they are awesome at killing _____, especially using _____. There's no context for any of them as anything more than murder engines. We never get to see them do normal stuff to see how they behave in situations that don't mandate justifiable homicide. Gordon Freeman's purportedly a scientist, but we've never seen him doing any science, unless his specific field of study was abnormal applications of crowbar. But the game told us he was, so he must be. Guess he's also a gun aficionado considering how skilled he is with a variety of firearms. And explosives... Black Mesa must have been up to some fucked up science.
In order for consequences to have meaning they need to have context, but that doesn't necessarily mean happy against sad. Just a little definition to prove that these characters are supposed to be people in extraordinary circumstances, but life isn't like that for them all the time. The situation should be just as weird for them as it is for the player, but they adapted into something to care about, from something people are capable of relating. JRPGs tend to be kinda heavy handed about this, but it's a better attempt than every western action hero who is unflappable in face of many bullets, if he's not just a completely blank slate to begin with.
Actually taking some time out of the schedule to have the characters do unheroic things makes them so much more relatable, to the point where they're introspective enough to realize that shadow demon hunting doesn't have many real world applications so they still have to cram for midterms. It's not often that video game characters think about life after taking down the big bad.
It's not that all games need comedy to offset tragedy. All games need banality to offset badassedness. Most games don't offer any more backstory or motivation for the leads other than they are awesome at killing _____, especially using _____. There's no context for any of them as anything more than murder engines. We never get to see them do normal stuff to see how they behave in situations that don't mandate justifiable homicide. Gordon Freeman's purportedly a scientist, but we've never seen him doing any science, unless his specific field of study was abnormal applications of crowbar. But the game told us he was, so he must be. Guess he's also a gun aficionado considering how skilled he is with a variety of firearms. And explosives... Black Mesa must have been up to some fucked up science.
In order for consequences to have meaning they need to have context, but that doesn't necessarily mean happy against sad. Just a little definition to prove that these characters are supposed to be people in extraordinary circumstances, but life isn't like that for them all the time. The situation should be just as weird for them as it is for the player, but they adapted into something to care about, from something people are capable of relating. JRPGs tend to be kinda heavy handed about this, but it's a better attempt than every western action hero who is unflappable in face of many bullets, if he's not just a completely blank slate to begin with.
Personally, this is something I believe the Metal Gear Solid series excels at. Also, it's late and I've just stopped playing MGS2 so it's all I got. Say what you will about the overall story and the way it's presented, but I don't think it can be beat when it comes to character interaction and development. Mostly because of the brief moments of completely odd humor that punctuate the codec calls and cutscenes, and the easter eggs and little details you notice while playing the game itself. It's a series that is starkly and deathly serious while being egregiously over-the-top and shamelessly in love with its own specific brand of self-referential humor. I don't know how it works. I love it. Throw in copious amounts of exposition with voice actors talking over cepiotone infographs at length and you have something that shouldn't work under any circumstance but it does against all odds. Maybe it's the fact that the slices of exposition are cut from the story cake and delivered onto our brain plates by characters we love.
Again, it's really late. I shouldn't be up this late. Talking about video games.
Again, it's really late. I shouldn't be up this late. Talking about video games.
I hope someone at Square decides to watch this. There's nothing tragic about bad stuff happening to someone who is always tragic and sad. Breaking someone who is happy and lighthearted, someone who we see as a ray of light or hope, that makes for sadness.
i dont disagree with you on 90% of this video, i actually agree with you on FF9 and 10. however i disagree with your assessment of FF8. the game is more about the fact that a man with wrecked emotions learns to not be such a dick anymore through the course of the game via his interactions with other people, rinoa in particular.
You're right, JRPGs WERE amazing and WRPGs have always been emotionless, fake playpens with crayon on the walls to look like mountains. Cheers for clearing that up for us all Jimbo!
And it's very possible for you to play FF7 with Aeris barely appearing in it. You don't even have to go on a date with her. Fucking hell, on one playthrough I went on a date with Barrett instead. And when you have to go with her through the Temple of the Ancients, she doesn't say much and is all mysterious and shit. But the reason we care about her is because Cloud does, because he's a fuckwad who can't see that the delicious Tifa wants nothing more than to make cloud wear her like a feedbag.
9 though, is legit. So is Shadow Hearts, and several other games I could go on about now but won't...
And it's very possible for you to play FF7 with Aeris barely appearing in it. You don't even have to go on a date with her. Fucking hell, on one playthrough I went on a date with Barrett instead. And when you have to go with her through the Temple of the Ancients, she doesn't say much and is all mysterious and shit. But the reason we care about her is because Cloud does, because he's a fuckwad who can't see that the delicious Tifa wants nothing more than to make cloud wear her like a feedbag.
9 though, is legit. So is Shadow Hearts, and several other games I could go on about now but won't...
Having contrast is certainly an easier way to evoke a better sense of tragedy... though good writing is the best way - something that has been lacking in video games.
The Black Waltz is built up as the villain through the first act and then he accidently kills himself with slapstick.
I like Final Fantasy 9.
FF8 just should have been about Laguna, getting leg cramps, getting laid, getting arrested and getting elected president of future-land.
I like Final Fantasy 9.
FF8 just should have been about Laguna, getting leg cramps, getting laid, getting arrested and getting elected president of future-land.
@Elsa - Something that's been lacking in Mainstream video games maybe, but I can't really get behind this notion that good writing is a thing of the past across the board.
@Jim: I loved you as the dude in the Gundam head in the trailer for the new Deadpool movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo-tWlETq8w&feature=player_embedded#!
You're Not Alone! is my favorite FF9 track, Jim!
And I love that you call Tidus "T-eye-dus" and not "Teedus"
And I love that you call Tidus "T-eye-dus" and not "Teedus"
Not trying to correct you but the last game where something in it happened that affected me was the death of Derrick the Cain in D3. I was genuinely surprised..
@gameglossMark
If you think there haven't been any games with good stories you CLEARLY need to play some more games.
@Tin Man
Considering how much of a focus the Midgar section of the game has on the first 4 character (Cloud, Barret, Tifa and Aeris), most people would already have grown very attached to the Aeris by the time you actually hit the world map. Obviously having her in your team more would trigger loads more character events and dialogue, but the groundwork is already there.
I'd also like to point that since Aeris starts off with nearly TWICE the chance (date points) of going on the date with Cloud than anyone else, most people would have gone with her on their first playthrough even if she wasn't in the party.
Needless to say, there is metric tons of Aeris.
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For once Jim, I can get COMPLETELY behind this video. Not you. Just the video!
Stories need emotional depth, they need hills and valleys to resonate with the audience and truly feel complete. This is where JRPG's just outclass all other games. They of course have the time to cultivate all that character development and let the player get attached, but it's also a question of the fact that the designers CARE. They want to round the characters out, even if that means just being allowed to chill sometimes.
Other genres need to try harder. Most shooters are just start off depressing and the situation gets increasing dire from the start so I have no reason to care. The stakes are meant to be high but what has been LOST in that story? Where is the variety?
I LOVE the use of 'The Great Warrior' tune from FF7, which I think is a PARTICULARLY powerful example of an emotional shift. Instead of a happy moment turning sad it's a melancholic (which FF7 mostly is) and oppressive battle section of the game that suddenly turns joyful and beautiful.
Squall is the perfect example of a poorly written character (in a poorly written game). After a LOT of time he does improve, but unlike with a GOOD character arc (like Cloud has) Squall's is just ridiculously jarring to the point where I can't even recall where he changed. He also has NO particularly reasoning for being such an annoying character and life is rather GOOD to him, he has a stable job, the chicks dig him and he owns a GUNBLADE. He has barely any actual good character points to tip the scales and make the player like him again.
It's the other characters of FF8 that are actually somewhat likable.
There are tons of examples of games that understand these strong storytelling concepts, but I'll just say GOOD JRPG's because I'm lazy. Also Xenoblade. Also Mother 3. Those games need pimping.
Also. It has been WAAAAY too many years since I last played FF9. Which I have only played once.
And yes, I can still somewhat recall the tragic moments. A refresher is in order.
If you think there haven't been any games with good stories you CLEARLY need to play some more games.
@Tin Man
Considering how much of a focus the Midgar section of the game has on the first 4 character (Cloud, Barret, Tifa and Aeris), most people would already have grown very attached to the Aeris by the time you actually hit the world map. Obviously having her in your team more would trigger loads more character events and dialogue, but the groundwork is already there.
I'd also like to point that since Aeris starts off with nearly TWICE the chance (date points) of going on the date with Cloud than anyone else, most people would have gone with her on their first playthrough even if she wasn't in the party.
Needless to say, there is metric tons of Aeris.
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For once Jim, I can get COMPLETELY behind this video. Not you. Just the video!
Stories need emotional depth, they need hills and valleys to resonate with the audience and truly feel complete. This is where JRPG's just outclass all other games. They of course have the time to cultivate all that character development and let the player get attached, but it's also a question of the fact that the designers CARE. They want to round the characters out, even if that means just being allowed to chill sometimes.
Other genres need to try harder. Most shooters are just start off depressing and the situation gets increasing dire from the start so I have no reason to care. The stakes are meant to be high but what has been LOST in that story? Where is the variety?
I LOVE the use of 'The Great Warrior' tune from FF7, which I think is a PARTICULARLY powerful example of an emotional shift. Instead of a happy moment turning sad it's a melancholic (which FF7 mostly is) and oppressive battle section of the game that suddenly turns joyful and beautiful.
Squall is the perfect example of a poorly written character (in a poorly written game). After a LOT of time he does improve, but unlike with a GOOD character arc (like Cloud has) Squall's is just ridiculously jarring to the point where I can't even recall where he changed. He also has NO particularly reasoning for being such an annoying character and life is rather GOOD to him, he has a stable job, the chicks dig him and he owns a GUNBLADE. He has barely any actual good character points to tip the scales and make the player like him again.
It's the other characters of FF8 that are actually somewhat likable.
There are tons of examples of games that understand these strong storytelling concepts, but I'll just say GOOD JRPG's because I'm lazy. Also Xenoblade. Also Mother 3. Those games need pimping.
Also. It has been WAAAAY too many years since I last played FF9. Which I have only played once.
And yes, I can still somewhat recall the tragic moments. A refresher is in order.
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