surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
Can't wait to watch this when I'm at a proper computer! The hatred towards the ending of Mass Effect 3 reminds me of the hatred towards the ending of Matrix Revolutions. I haven't finished ME3 yet so I can't speak to that but I remember how pissed I was when the Matrix trilogy ended with a big climactic fight between Neo and Agent Smith where they... Punch each other really hard? That's it? What a letdown. Ironically the Wachowskis actually did get a chance to revise the ending to the film in the videogame Path of Neo. This time instead of simply punching each other Smith grabs control of a bunch of cars and assembles himself into a giant transformer that you fight. So be careful what you wish for.
Oh it's on now!
If I remember right right, "Movie Bob" was getting in shit with the Escapist community for having the opposite opinion and calling anyone who wanted any change the usual list of stuff. Entitled, crybabies, blah, blah, blah.
At least you looked at the subject and gave a pretty balanced opinion without trying to belittle the "other side."
If I remember right right, "Movie Bob" was getting in shit with the Escapist community for having the opposite opinion and calling anyone who wanted any change the usual list of stuff. Entitled, crybabies, blah, blah, blah.
At least you looked at the subject and gave a pretty balanced opinion without trying to belittle the "other side."
@dak -Except Matrix went to crap by the second movie, thinking existential philosophical rubbish was what people liked about it rather than world and characters. They forgot that thier inspirations like Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell had that and strong doses of action and character development.
ME3, despite wild accusations otherwise, did not forget such things.
ME3, despite wild accusations otherwise, did not forget such things.
Haven't watched yet BUT Jim you really need to fix the link to the video on the Escapist - every week that direct link is messed up and I usually go there to watch it cause for some reason it's choppy when I watch it embedded here.
Meh. My problem lies soley with the industry in, and of itself. Anyone who can idly stand there and tell me the gaming industry is not sick, or unethical is just plain delussional, and needs a psyche check.
On the subject of MassEffect though - Bioware should just admit they bombed it, and screwed up. Believing yourselves infallible is insane. Which is what brings us back to the point at hand. The industry in which believes itself totally infallible, and deserving of everything, and then some. Truth is that they are worse then the crack addicts whom the government bailed out (I.E. the banks, and other "supposed" self proclaimed too important, and infallible fillerbusters.) This world is sick.
Call me a hater, or continue being ignorant of the truth. Makes no difference to me. I am not a conditioned null, and will take no part in this bs.
On the subject of MassEffect though - Bioware should just admit they bombed it, and screwed up. Believing yourselves infallible is insane. Which is what brings us back to the point at hand. The industry in which believes itself totally infallible, and deserving of everything, and then some. Truth is that they are worse then the crack addicts whom the government bailed out (I.E. the banks, and other "supposed" self proclaimed too important, and infallible fillerbusters.) This world is sick.
Call me a hater, or continue being ignorant of the truth. Makes no difference to me. I am not a conditioned null, and will take no part in this bs.
Big budget games are first and foremost a corporate product. I guarantee no EA game is 100% constructed according to some artistic vision in the first place. Not to mention that we live in the age of constant game updates, DLC and add-ons. So I find the idea that the game must stay frozen in whatever state it happened to be in when it went gold (according to marketing deadlines, of course) a bit silly.
I am in partial agreement. The Retake "movement" can take their pseudo-activism and shove it up their asses.
Pretty much covers it, ending doesn't need to be "happy", just not crap.
The whole thing really does stink of the rushed ending being planned with the intent to push additional paid DLC endings.... which really would do more harm to the whole videogames as art argument than replacing a rushed rubbish ending with a decent coherent ending. In a day and age where such things are possible!
The whole thing really does stink of the rushed ending being planned with the intent to push additional paid DLC endings.... which really would do more harm to the whole videogames as art argument than replacing a rushed rubbish ending with a decent coherent ending. In a day and age where such things are possible!
It is a difficult line to define, A good ending could be the hardest thing to come by. Fable 2 had it, that defining choice with the dog, then destroyed it with DLC. I could have been perfectly content with RedXIII staring onward with his pups, But FF7 had to be thrashed all over in the name of money. I was fine with my Mass Effect 3 experience, I just hope the developers and writers can tip toe this change in style, so all this Bioware hate can go back to the real reason we should be entitled little pricks, Why No Jade Empire 2?
Thanks for making this the last time. I was upset initially, but jeez I didn't expect this to last for a month. I mean...I've finished three games since, and it's faded into distant memory. It seems like every game news outlet is milking this rage for as much discussion as possible when there's nothing left to discuss. Yes it was shit. Don't support retarded DLC. Deal With it. The End.
You can all blow me. I want what those Canadian dipshits advertised and hyped me on for a year, none of this contradictory bullshit ending shit.
I would encourage anyone who looks at the addition(NOT REPACEMENT, ADDITION) of another ending as negative with the same view I have with Star Wars: They can change whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't change my memories one bit. Even if the new ending is absolute shit, it's okay. I can pretend it doesn't exist, and move on with my life.
You know, despite having absolutely no interest in Mass Effect, I love it when you analyse the stuff around it, as you show it's very relevant outside of the Mass Effect universe.
I don't really see the problem with chaning an ending, it happens in films all the time during test screenings and "director's cuts". Just look at Brazil for example! Or what about First Blood where Rambo WOULD HAVE DIED. And the thing is, there has been no real outrage about all of that, at least not on the scale that Mass Effect 3 has accumulated. If the public feels like they deserve a better ending, and their arguments are justified, then just give them a better ending!
I have to say, working in the games industry myself, I don't see anything wrong with the fans getting what they want. After all, it is their money that keeps this whole crazy industry afloat. At the end of the day this isn't about someone's artwork, this is a product being sold to consumers. I don't think games should be about stroking a designer's ego. If the experience is lacking its certainly not the consumers fault.
mass effect is not art. You might as well say transformers is. If you start going down that road then you could say everything is art so the idea of updating anything is wrong.
The ending was never "changed" people. This was always the plan. To charge people for the actual ending. They tried to pull a Shamalan and it backfired.
anyone thinking they convinced Bioware to change anything are very naive.
anyone thinking they convinced Bioware to change anything are very naive.
New rule: If a developer places a reporter from a well-known review site IN THE GAME ITSELF, it may not defend the product by appealing to "the integrity of the artist's vision."
For convenience, this may be referred to as the Chobot Rule.
But seriously, Jim, well said.
For convenience, this may be referred to as the Chobot Rule.
But seriously, Jim, well said.
I give it a thumbs up for using that music from FF9, and a million thumbs up for giving props to the Alien 3 director's cut. Such a great film.
Also, I still kind of like the ending. I generally try to focus more on the dozens of hours that made up the journey there than the 10 minutes at the end of it. Way, way, way too much emphasis is put on endings, like if a game does not have the right ending than everything is less meaningful. Well, if that's your delusion of choice then everyone's life is meaningless because we all die. Not the way I choose to look at it. Ungh, now I've gone and made myself all depressed.
Also, I still kind of like the ending. I generally try to focus more on the dozens of hours that made up the journey there than the 10 minutes at the end of it. Way, way, way too much emphasis is put on endings, like if a game does not have the right ending than everything is less meaningful. Well, if that's your delusion of choice then everyone's life is meaningless because we all die. Not the way I choose to look at it. Ungh, now I've gone and made myself all depressed.
Mr. Sterling, does that mean, no more Mass Effect slash fictionż
Also, that was a nice opener after the intro. That "Happy Ending" naughty talk was entertaining.
Also, that was a nice opener after the intro. That "Happy Ending" naughty talk was entertaining.
The big wigs who make the actual choices of how a game ultimately is developed, have done more to "destroy art" as it where, than any number of fans who hated an ending ever did.
How many stories do you hear about how a developer had planned it like this, but the higher ups said no, do this instead.
And like Excel said, games are not art and never will be, the sooner people move away from this delusion the happier the gaming industry as a whole will be.
How many stories do you hear about how a developer had planned it like this, but the higher ups said no, do this instead.
And like Excel said, games are not art and never will be, the sooner people move away from this delusion the happier the gaming industry as a whole will be.
I don't even have to watch this to know it's moronic and STILL Jim just beating a dead horse for controversy views.
And as it was said before, games aren't art. As much as the indie hype train would lead you to believe, they aren't.
Of the many games out there the closest I would say is "art" is Mother 3, and even that is a stretch.
And as it was said before, games aren't art. As much as the indie hype train would lead you to believe, they aren't.
Of the many games out there the closest I would say is "art" is Mother 3, and even that is a stretch.
The thing that I think is being overlooked by everyone is this: Do a majority or even a plurality of the people who have played ME3 have a problem with the ending?
What if only 25% of people disliked the ending, but that percentage of people are making a big stink about it? Is it right to change the ending in that case?
I'm against changes the endings of fiction based on the whims of the masses. Look up a list of cult films and then imagine that movies like The Thing or The Big Lebowski were changed in response to the reactions of their audiences at the time.
What if only 25% of people disliked the ending, but that percentage of people are making a big stink about it? Is it right to change the ending in that case?
I'm against changes the endings of fiction based on the whims of the masses. Look up a list of cult films and then imagine that movies like The Thing or The Big Lebowski were changed in response to the reactions of their audiences at the time.
Actually not to be the diggest dick in the pond, but by the difinition of "art" as a whole "Video Games" are just another medium in which "art" is expressed, defined, and imagined, and thus given form. To say that video games are not art is to say that dancing, literary (literacy. Meaning writing), and even such expressions as using a canvas or other said medium is also not art. Video games by definition are art. Unfortunetly however the problem plaguing games as well as most forms of art are coporate, and capitalistic ideals in which money is the driving factor.
To put it bluntly they may have compromised their intregrity as artist, but chose so willingly in face of the old idiom - "Starving artist." Which is what most of them would have looked at if not for the fact that there was a demand for their art (product).
Moving on though. Corporate, and capatalistic influence is killing the industry. Plain and simple. Though the industry is well into conditioning people into believing "we" the people ourselves are the ones to blame for the industries problem. Talk about ass backwards right? Well that is the world for you.
"Welcome to The World."
- Ovan
Life sucks ass...
To put it bluntly they may have compromised their intregrity as artist, but chose so willingly in face of the old idiom - "Starving artist." Which is what most of them would have looked at if not for the fact that there was a demand for their art (product).
Moving on though. Corporate, and capatalistic influence is killing the industry. Plain and simple. Though the industry is well into conditioning people into believing "we" the people ourselves are the ones to blame for the industries problem. Talk about ass backwards right? Well that is the world for you.
"Welcome to The World."
- Ovan
Life sucks ass...
This video is pretty much everything me and my Mass Effect playing friends have been saying all along- we have NEVER been asking for a happy Hollywood-ending. All we've been asking for is an ending that keeps the themes of the story we've enjoyed, and which will move us just as much as the moments that came before it. We just want a GOOD ending. And what we got? That was not a good ending. To me it screamed of a creative team that went:
"OH SHIT DEADLINE GUYS WHO'S WRITING THE ENDING?"
"WHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE WRITING THE ENDING?!"
"SHIT SHIT UHM SHEPARD MEETS AN AI WHO EXPLAINS EVERYTHING AND THEN EXPLODES THE REAPERS AND ALL TECHNOLOGY IN THE UNIVERSE SEND IT TO THE MODELLERS GO GO GO."
It just feels so rushed and lazy. I disbelieve that it is the real ending until that DLC they talked about arrives. And if it is, well... if they ask me to pay for it, I'ma hit up Youtube and never look back.
"OH SHIT DEADLINE GUYS WHO'S WRITING THE ENDING?"
"WHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE WRITING THE ENDING?!"
"SHIT SHIT UHM SHEPARD MEETS AN AI WHO EXPLAINS EVERYTHING AND THEN EXPLODES THE REAPERS AND ALL TECHNOLOGY IN THE UNIVERSE SEND IT TO THE MODELLERS GO GO GO."
It just feels so rushed and lazy. I disbelieve that it is the real ending until that DLC they talked about arrives. And if it is, well... if they ask me to pay for it, I'ma hit up Youtube and never look back.
@Kyousuke Nanbu
If not videogames then what is art?
One simply can not condemn an entire medium.
Quite frankly if Videogames can not be a medium for art then art as a whole died sometime shortly after the renaissance... because any argument lobbied against videogames as an artistic medium can be applied to any other 'accepted' medium and stick.
Mind you like any other medium one needs to take it case by case and accept that like all other mediums the classification of 'art' is largely in the eye of the beholder.
If not videogames then what is art?
One simply can not condemn an entire medium.
Quite frankly if Videogames can not be a medium for art then art as a whole died sometime shortly after the renaissance... because any argument lobbied against videogames as an artistic medium can be applied to any other 'accepted' medium and stick.
Mind you like any other medium one needs to take it case by case and accept that like all other mediums the classification of 'art' is largely in the eye of the beholder.
Aw, no Jimquisition when the 4 part, $10 a piece, "something that actually resembles an ending" DLC/ME4 is announced/comes out?
Also, if you don't like to think of games as art, then think of everything that goes into it as art. An extreme evolution of collage(or however you spell it).
Also, if you don't like to think of games as art, then think of everything that goes into it as art. An extreme evolution of collage(or however you spell it).
Regarding the 'Are games art?' argument, despite hearing about it I'd never actually read that Roger Q*bert blog you showed Jim.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html
He seemed to (deliberately?) miss Kellee Santiago's points but did raise the question of whether a game without challenge or goals is a game which is more relevant now than 2 years ago, though ultimately I guess the question of what is art or what is a game is a matter of grammar. How many 'films' are shot on film? perhaps in some languages the word for 'video game' or 'interactive entertainment' isn't so awkward and perhaps there will never be an adequate english word for the range of interactive media even when we're all bumming a holographic Holmes up the bum like a bummer.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html
He seemed to (deliberately?) miss Kellee Santiago's points but did raise the question of whether a game without challenge or goals is a game which is more relevant now than 2 years ago, though ultimately I guess the question of what is art or what is a game is a matter of grammar. How many 'films' are shot on film? perhaps in some languages the word for 'video game' or 'interactive entertainment' isn't so awkward and perhaps there will never be an adequate english word for the range of interactive media even when we're all bumming a holographic Holmes up the bum like a bummer.
John Johnson: That is a fair point and inevitable question whenever a controversy arises. Of course those who are unhappy are most likely to the most vocal. In the end, though, Bioware is receiving an unusual amount of discontent, even for Bioware fans (and admittedly we are a notoriously discontent lot), on this topic. Enough so that they felt compelled to address it with "content initiatives." Ultimately, that is all that really matters.
My issue with the whole "Retake Mass Effect 3" thing isn't the fact that they don't have valid points, because they do. The problem is that they're trying to force their opinions on everyone else. Not everyone hated the ending of Mass Effect 3, but because these people DID hate it -- these people who don't work for BioWare, had nothing to do with the game's development and have no right to DEMAND anything of anyone -- they feel that everyone needs to have their experiences changed. It's like an organized religion, where they're right and everyone who disagrees is beneath them.
Thank you Jim for being the only games journalist who seems to have genuinely made an effort to understand this whole debate. I'm not even that strongly opinionated on what Bioware should do with ending, but the way more journalists have been responding has been incredibly dismissive and rude. I think you nailed the head when you say that Gamers have been crying wolf and made a bad name for themselves, but I'm glad to see at least a few people not simply dismissing the entire issue without even informing themselves.
You're looking great Jim, did you loose weight? I know on the Podcast you were talking about working out a bit. You look much, much better in the vid here. And this isn't a compliment coming from a thin person. I'm 6 ft 215 pounds. I could stand to loose a few.
1) They aren't changing it, they are clarifying it (meaning it stays the same, just more details. Like, "hey, you didn't destroy the galaxy because of X")
2) There's no art to be destroyed there. They just slapped some shit together and called it done so that they could ship on time.
2) There's no art to be destroyed there. They just slapped some shit together and called it done so that they could ship on time.
So many people getting so many panties in so many bunches. The word art and it's variants are used at least 30 times in these responses, most of which are either absolutist or completely devoid of content.
"Games are/aren't art" is not a great contribution to the dialogue, because you aren't an arbiter of art. If you were then this discussion wouldn't be happening in the first place.
"Games are/aren't art" is not a great contribution to the dialogue, because you aren't an arbiter of art. If you were then this discussion wouldn't be happening in the first place.
Can't watch this yet, but from a historical perspective this happens very often.
Now I haven't brushed up on my music history knowledge in respects to this, but many composers were demanded to write ridiculous amounts of music with ridiculous deadlines. It is mind boggling how many works some of these composers had to churn out. It never ended well if their work didn't please the aristocrats investing in them. The legendary Bach was even jailed because he tried to quit his job.
If anything this story serves as a reminder that not only are these people trying to create art, but making a living solely out of these works.
Now I haven't brushed up on my music history knowledge in respects to this, but many composers were demanded to write ridiculous amounts of music with ridiculous deadlines. It is mind boggling how many works some of these composers had to churn out. It never ended well if their work didn't please the aristocrats investing in them. The legendary Bach was even jailed because he tried to quit his job.
If anything this story serves as a reminder that not only are these people trying to create art, but making a living solely out of these works.
follow
