surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
So does this mean we can go back to discussing the Men Going Their Own Way forums again? Those were better times, and much more pertinent social issues.
The reason video game writers put things in like rape and nuns getting punched in the face is to get peoples attention.
And its working
And its working
"According to Gunn, one major problem is that people are too busy trying to be "right" on the Internet, rather than make any meaningful contribution to the discussion."
According to the Universe; this is, like, the fourth law of thermodynamics: "And object wanting to be right will continue to try to be right, even after proven wrong."
According to the Universe; this is, like, the fourth law of thermodynamics: "And object wanting to be right will continue to try to be right, even after proven wrong."
why are we going on about this shit?
I suppose it's context. If you wan't to make a vulnerable character, then make one. A superhuman teenage girl capable of killing multitudes pirates like a one woman SEAL team, surviving huge falls and generally insane asswhoopings at the hands of nature and circumstance, and doing all of this while she should be nursing any number of broken bones and bullet wounds is not a vulnerable character.
You're being asked to suspend huge amounts of disbelief, then every now and again being asked to suspend that suspension of disbelief long enough to convey some kind of vulnerability, while being shot back into that suspension of disbelief the second you get control back. It doesn't make any sense.
All I'm saying is that, on a personal level, if Yorda's capture in Ico meant she was going to be raped, I feel like that advances the medium. Cramming vulnerability into Tomb Raider does not. It'd be like making Nathan Drake vulnerable, even though he is a mass murdering psychopath who is as charming as he is bloodthirsty, capable of taking the lives of hundreds with nothing less than the bat of an eye and a witty one-liner. It's not like that would ever happen....................
You're being asked to suspend huge amounts of disbelief, then every now and again being asked to suspend that suspension of disbelief long enough to convey some kind of vulnerability, while being shot back into that suspension of disbelief the second you get control back. It doesn't make any sense.
All I'm saying is that, on a personal level, if Yorda's capture in Ico meant she was going to be raped, I feel like that advances the medium. Cramming vulnerability into Tomb Raider does not. It'd be like making Nathan Drake vulnerable, even though he is a mass murdering psychopath who is as charming as he is bloodthirsty, capable of taking the lives of hundreds with nothing less than the bat of an eye and a witty one-liner. It's not like that would ever happen....................
Broads should just shut up and take the abuse, right? Because, you know, it's easier for us to defend the status quo tooth and nail than to admit that our society is prejudiced and everyone, despite their intentions, is at least partially to blame. If these were accusations of racism, Gunn wouldn't be so quick to let his idiotic views see the light of day.
You like to say this "we should have a discussion" shit in various controversies, but that doesn't stop you from childishly dismissing people's complaints all the time, often in the very same controversies. And it seems to me you don't really like to have a discussion, you just like saying your own stuff and possibly responding to other opinions that aren't too different from your own.
Law & Order: SVU never stood a chance...
["Witty" comment quota fulfilled.]
Anyways, this James Gunn gets it [the situation of equality and whatnot]. And makes a very intelligent argument in that linked interview that I agree was 100% necessary.
Also, I'd call the stories mentioned in the first paragraph "scandals" not scandals. Because you know. Proportions being blown out. Then again I'm sure the majority here concur on that anyways.
["Witty" comment quota fulfilled.]
Anyways, this James Gunn gets it [the situation of equality and whatnot]. And makes a very intelligent argument in that linked interview that I agree was 100% necessary.
Also, I'd call the stories mentioned in the first paragraph "scandals" not scandals. Because you know. Proportions being blown out. Then again I'm sure the majority here concur on that anyways.
@Eric J Baker
"Broads should just shut up and take the abuse, right?"
Yes, that is literally what Gunn is saying, word by word, verbatim...
...not you missing the point, argument, and entire topic...
"Broads should just shut up and take the abuse, right?"
Yes, that is literally what Gunn is saying, word by word, verbatim...
...not you missing the point, argument, and entire topic...
James is on the money.
I suspect you may read these comments again. Keep up the good word.
Eric Baker? Go away.
I suspect you may read these comments again. Keep up the good word.
Eric Baker? Go away.
Dammit, you know what? If I ever break it in the video game industry, I'm going to somehow put bring up the topic of "rape" and "violence towards women" in a way that's reasonable AND not offensive.
You'll see, you'll ALL see!
...
Truth be told, it'd probably be harder getting into the industry than making a context for rape and violence towards women.
You'll see, you'll ALL see!
...
Truth be told, it'd probably be harder getting into the industry than making a context for rape and violence towards women.
"They're people looking to be outraged and offended so they can let off some steam."
With all due respect, I find this to be one of the laziest points of reasoning I come across in most of my trips around the Internet.
Do people, favoring a specific point of view in an argument, try to "win" arguments? Absolutely. I don't think objective argument really, truly happens as much as we think it does, or that it's valued nearly as much as people like to pretend they do. People do become attached to a point of view, a position, an idea; I think that's as natural as breathing, even if it leads us to some poor reasoning in the process.
But the idea of people actively seeking out things at which to take offense? Come on. There are enough varying opinions flying around at any given moment on the internet that anyone with a strong, genuine opinion about something will find someone to argue with in earnest. Claiming that they're faking their offense just for its own sake is ridiculous.
Now -- might they, having one favorite hammer (as a metaphor for a certain worldview; see also, 'Maslow's Hammer'), try to turn EVERYTHING into a nail? I think it's fair to say yes, many people will do that. They will try to argue within the confines of what they know best.
I think it's risky, though, to flippantly, sweepingly imply that people just invent strong feelings, at least to the point where controversy's get going. It may seem like you're espousing an objective, neutral point of view, but what you're doing is, with one broad brush stroke, delegitimizing what may be and probably are the very real feelings and perceptions of people. This never, ever helps. Ever.
In fact, let ME make a sweeping generalization and see if it sits better: Nearly everyone on the internet is terrified of both anger, and of apologizing.
Eh? Seriously, just roll that around for a moment. People on the internet can be some of the most aggressive, angry motherfuckers, and yet I think they are downright terrified OF anger and of subsequent apology. In some controversies, it seems like the idea of one party apologizing is akin to the idea of their cutting a testicle off. I don't know if it's because they truly don't have it in them to empathize with those who took offense, or if they think it's some self-undermining show of weakness to do so. It's like the idea of being sorry that someone was upset by your words or actions -- regardless of whether or not you still fully stand by them (which can be done) -- is a dirty one.
Honestly, I think it sets a lousy precedent to assume that even a quarter of all controversies start because of false, disingenuous outrage. Or at least if you're going to, why not take "I feel you're perpetuating cultural attitudes that are damaging to my gender" at least a little more seriously than, "I FEEL YOU'RE A POOPYHEAD CUZ YOU DON'T LIEKS ASSASSIN'S CREED, BUTTHOLE!"?
With all due respect, I find this to be one of the laziest points of reasoning I come across in most of my trips around the Internet.
Do people, favoring a specific point of view in an argument, try to "win" arguments? Absolutely. I don't think objective argument really, truly happens as much as we think it does, or that it's valued nearly as much as people like to pretend they do. People do become attached to a point of view, a position, an idea; I think that's as natural as breathing, even if it leads us to some poor reasoning in the process.
But the idea of people actively seeking out things at which to take offense? Come on. There are enough varying opinions flying around at any given moment on the internet that anyone with a strong, genuine opinion about something will find someone to argue with in earnest. Claiming that they're faking their offense just for its own sake is ridiculous.
Now -- might they, having one favorite hammer (as a metaphor for a certain worldview; see also, 'Maslow's Hammer'), try to turn EVERYTHING into a nail? I think it's fair to say yes, many people will do that. They will try to argue within the confines of what they know best.
I think it's risky, though, to flippantly, sweepingly imply that people just invent strong feelings, at least to the point where controversy's get going. It may seem like you're espousing an objective, neutral point of view, but what you're doing is, with one broad brush stroke, delegitimizing what may be and probably are the very real feelings and perceptions of people. This never, ever helps. Ever.
In fact, let ME make a sweeping generalization and see if it sits better: Nearly everyone on the internet is terrified of both anger, and of apologizing.
Eh? Seriously, just roll that around for a moment. People on the internet can be some of the most aggressive, angry motherfuckers, and yet I think they are downright terrified OF anger and of subsequent apology. In some controversies, it seems like the idea of one party apologizing is akin to the idea of their cutting a testicle off. I don't know if it's because they truly don't have it in them to empathize with those who took offense, or if they think it's some self-undermining show of weakness to do so. It's like the idea of being sorry that someone was upset by your words or actions -- regardless of whether or not you still fully stand by them (which can be done) -- is a dirty one.
Honestly, I think it sets a lousy precedent to assume that even a quarter of all controversies start because of false, disingenuous outrage. Or at least if you're going to, why not take "I feel you're perpetuating cultural attitudes that are damaging to my gender" at least a little more seriously than, "I FEEL YOU'RE A POOPYHEAD CUZ YOU DON'T LIEKS ASSASSIN'S CREED, BUTTHOLE!"?
I agree with some of what he says, but using rape as a plot device seems like a cheap way to build a character. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just think it's a dumb way to define a character, or redefine a character that's been around for as long as Lara has. I mean, you have a ton to draw from, and you choose to focus on THAT?
"And yet rape as a plot-point should never, as a rule, happen?"
Yes. Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape. This guy is another nerd who has no conception of what rape is. It's not violence. It's torture that lasts. Guys already make enough idiotic jokes about it because they don't understand it.
I love all this "anything should go in videogames" bullshit. These things don't make you more mature, folks. Dur dee durr.
Yes. Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape. This guy is another nerd who has no conception of what rape is. It's not violence. It's torture that lasts. Guys already make enough idiotic jokes about it because they don't understand it.
I love all this "anything should go in videogames" bullshit. These things don't make you more mature, folks. Dur dee durr.
This James Gunn guy, I like his style. He is fucking dead on about the storytelling thing. Shall any author take the Internet correctness police to task before penning a word, in order to find out what subject matter suits their fragile sensibilities? I don't want to live in that world.
100% agree. I welcome the discussion, but would prefer people being a little more reasonable about it.
Obbbbbvious straw man aside, Eric does make a half decent point.
Replace the killer nuns with huge afro (with requisite black power fist afro picks) sporting black guys dressed in prison garb, pulling guns out of their 80's style boom boxes, and this conversation probably never happens.
They're both equally ridiculous notions, but one would be offensive as shit, and the other wouldn't. The contexts are the same, but one gets defended and the other probably wouldn't (at least not in public).
Replace the killer nuns with huge afro (with requisite black power fist afro picks) sporting black guys dressed in prison garb, pulling guns out of their 80's style boom boxes, and this conversation probably never happens.
They're both equally ridiculous notions, but one would be offensive as shit, and the other wouldn't. The contexts are the same, but one gets defended and the other probably wouldn't (at least not in public).
Good ole sexism... I mean who cares if agent 47 kills sexy nuns and Lara almost getting raped look at any other game you can kill hookers tie them up and put them in front of a train or shoot random civilians and so on. yes sexism is bad but it's a video game for god sake these people need to find a better hobby then nitpicking every god damn thing in a video game that's what we have the ESRB for.
@socialnorms - I think you make a fair point. Not to say that rape should always, forever be this off-limits thing -- but while we still have a predominately male gaming industry (as was discussed in the previous article)? I think it's hard to bring enough sensitivity at this point in time.
Maybe, with progress in the discussion of gender roles over time, it can more comfortably be explored as a plot point. But right now, it almost always exists as a way to get an easy, kneejerk response out of the player -- a way to "beef up" what might be otherwise shallow storytelling.
Maybe, with progress in the discussion of gender roles over time, it can more comfortably be explored as a plot point. But right now, it almost always exists as a way to get an easy, kneejerk response out of the player -- a way to "beef up" what might be otherwise shallow storytelling.
@socialnorms:
That's just a cowardly way of thinking. Trying to censor bad things from the media is plain wrong. Ignoring bad things won't make them go away, it does nothing good to the victims. You think you're being totally socially progressive, but it's quite the opposite, this attitude is outright against it.
That's just a cowardly way of thinking. Trying to censor bad things from the media is plain wrong. Ignoring bad things won't make them go away, it does nothing good to the victims. You think you're being totally socially progressive, but it's quite the opposite, this attitude is outright against it.
Yes but in lara's case isn't it "attenpted rape" ? As in she doesn't and gets out safe? Rape used in media makes a hated antagonist, it makes sympathy for the hero/heroin and all that stuff. Sure you don't HAVE to put it in, but it exists in the world and shouldn't be forgotten. It should be know that scumbag perverts like that exist in the world so hopefully mankind can get past that trash in future generations. But based on the people I see where I live, the world is gonna be an awful place in 10-20 years
Jim Sterling dredging up this topic yet again. I agree with Gunn, but there is something very tabloid style in which Jim keeps stirring it up.
When will it be enough for these gaming tabloids?
When will it be enough for these gaming tabloids?
I think trying to limit any subject matter in story telling is bad. By all means, dont like it, dont look at it, advise people of why you think it is bad.
But dont you dare tell me what i can write about. Unless its fair for me to also tell you what you can write about.
But dont you dare tell me what i can write about. Unless its fair for me to also tell you what you can write about.
@socialnorms: I think his point was if it can be a valid plot point in other media, why not in video game plots as well? I can't even begin to count the number of books and shows I have experience wherein a female character has to deal with a sexual assault or rape. Some are really engaging and horrifying moments that truly drive the plot and add something to the story and characters, some of them are cheap shock moments or lazy writing. I don't see why it can't also be a valid plot point in a game as well, given the right context.
I'm not at all sure what you mean by: Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape
I'm not at all sure what you mean by: Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape
@social
Do games have to be an abstraction in your world? Do you give movies a pass? Should irreversible not have been filmed? Btw, there is nothing abstract about the violence in many games these days. It is just as real as rape in a videogame, that is to say it isn't. However American culture has for some reason followed in the footsteps of Rome in glorifying violence and we've all become numbed to it to an extent. I find it intriguing that you can take digital violence as abstract but not other subjects. I would think it an all or nothing affair.
Do games have to be an abstraction in your world? Do you give movies a pass? Should irreversible not have been filmed? Btw, there is nothing abstract about the violence in many games these days. It is just as real as rape in a videogame, that is to say it isn't. However American culture has for some reason followed in the footsteps of Rome in glorifying violence and we've all become numbed to it to an extent. I find it intriguing that you can take digital violence as abstract but not other subjects. I would think it an all or nothing affair.
' "In LC's case I say 'more power to them.' I believe they've helped to bring attention to a very small game and turn it into a very big game," he continued. "Our sales are way beyond what we could have ever imagined, and I think that those offended helped in some small way." '
Funny how no one notices this one line. The ironic thing about all these debates about sexism in gaming is that it's not actually harming these games so much as actually helping them in spreading awareness and increasing sales. Goes to show that there is no such thing as bad press.
Funny how no one notices this one line. The ironic thing about all these debates about sexism in gaming is that it's not actually harming these games so much as actually helping them in spreading awareness and increasing sales. Goes to show that there is no such thing as bad press.
@molamolacolacake
And I bet the characters in those books and TV shows resembled people, as well. The problem with the "other mediums do it" argument is that gaming characters are rarely human. They may look like people, and talk like people, but how many gaming characters display real human traits during gameplay? I can think of a small handful, but that number is dwarfed by the number of games that do the opposite.
This is the problem at the root of all of this: Gaming characters are fucking awful in the grand scheme of things. Not just the female characters, but male characters as well. If we want to play as superhuman killing machines, then that's great! I can't see a problem with that. Just don't act like these superhuman killing machines can tackle real human issues in real human ways, it would all be senseless.
Also, as far as "Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape", I'm fairly sure what he means is that you can make shooting someone just some anonymous abstract game mechanic, but rape is a far more personal, far more drawn out, and far more involved act that just randomly blowing some anonymous mask wearing henchmans face off.
And I bet the characters in those books and TV shows resembled people, as well. The problem with the "other mediums do it" argument is that gaming characters are rarely human. They may look like people, and talk like people, but how many gaming characters display real human traits during gameplay? I can think of a small handful, but that number is dwarfed by the number of games that do the opposite.
This is the problem at the root of all of this: Gaming characters are fucking awful in the grand scheme of things. Not just the female characters, but male characters as well. If we want to play as superhuman killing machines, then that's great! I can't see a problem with that. Just don't act like these superhuman killing machines can tackle real human issues in real human ways, it would all be senseless.
Also, as far as "Video games make combat an abstraction. But they can't do that with rape", I'm fairly sure what he means is that you can make shooting someone just some anonymous abstract game mechanic, but rape is a far more personal, far more drawn out, and far more involved act that just randomly blowing some anonymous mask wearing henchmans face off.
@Alan Argentina
Two words: Afro Samurai.
"That m-----f---er's got a m-----f---ing RPG!" I'd love to claim that was the stupidest part of the show, but that's really just scratching the surface.
Two words: Afro Samurai.
"That m-----f---er's got a m-----f---ing RPG!" I'd love to claim that was the stupidest part of the show, but that's really just scratching the surface.
Couldn't agree more.
@Jim
I get you disagreeing with him, but surely you're not serious when you say "a good number of us have learned a lot" from these silly (and often manufactured) internet "controversies"?
@Jim
I get you disagreeing with him, but surely you're not serious when you say "a good number of us have learned a lot" from these silly (and often manufactured) internet "controversies"?
I think the real 'controversy' here is thinking destructoid post 100% nessescary articles.
Come on guys, you post a fair amount of useless shit in my time.
Come on guys, you post a fair amount of useless shit in my time.
I think its more to do with sexism still being a major issue in todays society. I mean blowing someones head off is a unisex activity the whole family can enjoy, but raping a woman and then marketing the shit out of it can still legitimately offend a lot of people.
And honestly I dont see how the fuck you can compare Lollipop chainsaws sexploitation(?) to Tomb Raiders having a woman raped, those are two completely different things.
And honestly I dont see how the fuck you can compare Lollipop chainsaws sexploitation(?) to Tomb Raiders having a woman raped, those are two completely different things.
@Syn
"...but don't you dare tell me what I can write about."
I think that's one of the larger problems, in a nutshell. People want to make it about them, what *they* can write about, OUR rights, OUR stuff, yada yada yada. And I really don't think it's about people saying, "You must not ever, ever, ever write about this thing, ever"; but more like, "Won't you consider the fact that you may not have as much insight into this issue as you think you do? Won't you also consider the fact that maybe your insight is limited because your human resources are a bit limited, too?"
I mean, for all the back and forth and internet fights, it's really not the civil war many are making it out to be. It's this resistance to ideas, to listening to anyone else outside of what your comfortably formed opinion allows.
"...but don't you dare tell me what I can write about."
I think that's one of the larger problems, in a nutshell. People want to make it about them, what *they* can write about, OUR rights, OUR stuff, yada yada yada. And I really don't think it's about people saying, "You must not ever, ever, ever write about this thing, ever"; but more like, "Won't you consider the fact that you may not have as much insight into this issue as you think you do? Won't you also consider the fact that maybe your insight is limited because your human resources are a bit limited, too?"
I mean, for all the back and forth and internet fights, it's really not the civil war many are making it out to be. It's this resistance to ideas, to listening to anyone else outside of what your comfortably formed opinion allows.
@Archwright
Afro Samurai was a blaxploitation-esque anime. Black Dynamite was the same, Jackie Brown (and a lot of Tarantino's shit was inspired by blaxsploitation) and there's countless 70's blaxploitation flicks (fucking Blacula, to say the least). They're schlocky by design.
There's nothing about Hitman that would lead you to believe it's a schlock-fest blaxploitation game. Context context context.
Afro Samurai was a blaxploitation-esque anime. Black Dynamite was the same, Jackie Brown (and a lot of Tarantino's shit was inspired by blaxsploitation) and there's countless 70's blaxploitation flicks (fucking Blacula, to say the least). They're schlocky by design.
There's nothing about Hitman that would lead you to believe it's a schlock-fest blaxploitation game. Context context context.
The problem with this "the gaming industry doesn't know how to handle stuff like this" is that the "industry" is not a singular entity. Stories are written by individuals, if there's one writer who can do it, the rest won't nullify it. Statistics don't matter in this case. I don't know if there's been one yet, but all of them are free to try.
I agree it's silly to say games should never depict rape.
Good thing, then, that NO ONE said that. All the complaints were about that specific, poorly made nstance.
Wake me when someone decides to respond to the complainers and not to the strawmen in their heads.
Good thing, then, that NO ONE said that. All the complaints were about that specific, poorly made nstance.
Wake me when someone decides to respond to the complainers and not to the strawmen in their heads.
@The Random One:
Nope, soicalnorms said exactly that. He quoted "And yet rape as a plot-point should never, as a rule, happen?" and then he said "Yes".
Nope, soicalnorms said exactly that. He quoted "And yet rape as a plot-point should never, as a rule, happen?" and then he said "Yes".
@flaszlo
In the context of the games in question, and really all games that use violence in just abstract ways, he's kinda right. You can't make abstract rape a plot point the way you can make abstract violence a plot point. They just don't work the same way.
Also, I'm pretty sure The Random One meant like legit complaints from journos and the like. I think it would be incredibly hard to say people weren't mostly arguing with straw men, I don't think I've read one article that ever brings up censorship as a means of going about things.
In the context of the games in question, and really all games that use violence in just abstract ways, he's kinda right. You can't make abstract rape a plot point the way you can make abstract violence a plot point. They just don't work the same way.
Also, I'm pretty sure The Random One meant like legit complaints from journos and the like. I think it would be incredibly hard to say people weren't mostly arguing with straw men, I don't think I've read one article that ever brings up censorship as a means of going about things.
follow
