For those those who think that a Z-targeting method makes camera control irrelevant, I would say go play Ocarina and then Wind Waker, I think you would change your mind.
Also twin-stick shooters.
The next big break-through I see in console controls will involve some sort of retina tracking interface through a Kinect-like device, even then I think you'd still want a second stick for camera control so that moving your avatar/camera control/aiming are all independent if one another.
My point is that it used the controls available to it in order to allow for combat that is both fast paced and action oriented, and contain a lot of similar abilities and items found in square enix's more popular franchise. It used what was available. How can anyone advocate removing a developers options?
As it stands, all you really talk about is the [3]DS and the Wii, and that lack of experience really hurts the strength of articles like this.
They should have had it from the start.
I prefer using the touch screen for camera control for games like metroid hunters but I can see how games like MGS and RE:R were face button are actually used could make it very awkward.....
The second nub is BASICALLY to attract the fearful, lazy and creatively challenged third parties. Nintendo just wants to make it as PISS EASY as possible to stick a game on the 3DS.
The trouble is it backfired, and angry gamers think that the regular 3DS is some sort of handicapped machine when there's no proof that is the case.
The PSP is a different matter, as it was sold on its console-like experiences and didn't have the touch screen of the DS and such. Playing 3D GTA or a shooter or whatever on the PSP is a handicapped experience.
The second analog stick IS overrated, but it is the simplest way to control a free camera in 3D space. That control can help you enjoy all of the awesome art that can go into a game.
That said even buttons like on the N64 controller and the DPAD on the Wiimote & Nunchuck can control a 3D camera. I can enjoy the breathtaking views in Xenoblade just fine without a second stick.
So yeah. The second analog and one of the only things Sony did for gaming isn't THAT important :P .
Personally I would be happy if every console offered mouse/keyboard support. The only thing I've liked gamepads for over M/K are JRPGs and 'retro' games that only used one d-pad anyway.
In Ape Escape, all of your gadgets were tied to your ability to manipulate the right analogue stick. You spun it around to activate your helicopter, pushed it in whatever direction you wanted to swing your sword and net, and even controlled your RC car with it. Brilliant game.
Having a fixed camera doesn't solve this "problem" either, it creates more. Could you imagine Dark Souls with a fixed camera? Grand Theft Auto? I didn't think so. Some games work with a fixed camera, and some simply cannot. To call a user-controlled camera a developer issue they passed on to us because they couldn't come up with a better solution is hilarious.
Anyone with a 360 or PS3 can tell you that N64 / pre-dual shock games feel awkward today. Think about how often "camera issues" are mentioned in reviews today compared to 10 years ago.
Personally I don't think the 3DS requires a second nub, but I think there will be some cool games that utilize it.
Since the Wii and DS were pretty good at dealing with camera control via other means, it's really strange to see them cave in like this.
Even the Wi can't escape this issue. The sparse-buttoned Wiimote still needs a nunchuck to allow for z-targeting camera control independent of the wagglemote.
Furthermore, more and more control schemes utilize a "power wheels", which are means to use a control stock to select from a variety of options (Red Dead, Assassin's Creed, Batman AA/AC), so the jab about the c-buttons' superiority becomes moot, let alone hardware developers' fault, since even the coveted Nintendo used a c-stick in the GameCube.
One of my favorite aspects of videogames is that they AREN'T movies, and I do have control over the camera. The previously mentioned Batman and Assassin's Creed games go further by giving you compete camera control as well as options to make your moves appear cinematic *at your discretion*.
Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, but I believe it lies in the software developers' hands, and it involves amore intuitive system of focusing the camera and optimizing the command interpretation of a secondary stick to predict write it is you're trying to look. Driving games where left/right on the right stick allow you to intuitively look in that respective direction are a god place to start, in my opinion.
Well, when it comes to Nintendo knowledge, outside of Holmes, Tony is the best Dtoid has to offer; one of the best on the Internet really.
But when you write things like "the rise of portables", and have little to no mention of smartphone and PSP gaming due to lack of non-Nintendo experience (and trashing them often on top of that), it's a bit hard to take industry wide articles like this seriously.
As for this topic - I get it. Nintendo provides well designed experiences that don't require two nubs. However, that doesn't make games like God of War, Devil May Cry, and MGS Snake Eater: Subsistence (with the Splinter Cell camera) bad because they do.
Personally, I love Nintendo games. They're gaming at it's core; they're simple; they're fun. But I also like more complicated experiences from time to time, which this article doesn't really reflect experience with.
Nintendo releases maybe 5 games per year that are worth paying for. Most other consoles offer around 50+ Ninja Gaiden/God of War experiences: all of which are enhanced by a second nub. As someone mentioned, the second nub isn't always a camera nub.
It can control objects while using the left stick; it can directionally dodge; it can control a camera WHILE jumping/moving. If you play action games as a whole, you'd know that often times it is required, and more complicated games can suffer without it (Peace Walker PSP).
And yes, there is room for both simple and complicated in the gaming space.
Negatory. I don't want the game deciding for me. I want to look at what I want to look at. If I want to look to the left while Batman runs forway, that's my decision.
"How would you feel if whenever you watched a movie..."
That's the issue - it's not a movie, so stop treating it as such. A movie is a guided experience, so it makes sense to have the camera guided for the viewer. A game is a user-defined experience, so it makes sense that the user should define the camera if he/she wants.
This is such a horrible comparison. Games are not movies and they never will be. We need direct control over our view of the world because we need to be able to see the game world from different angles to achieve our goals; finding objects, facing enemies, etc. Obviously not all games need this, but many genres do.
The whole articles is just ignorant of the needs, designs and ergonomic advancements of our physical interaction with digital worlds. Evidence and reason are almost non-existent here. After reading a few of his articles, I am not a fan of Ponce, I believe I will avoid his future posts.
Ahh yea, i see by your post. The last part wasn't necessarily directed at you but sorry if the rest of the post made it seem that way.
Both kingdom hearts and lost planet 2 have deep combat because they use what is available to them. I was surprised at the depth of lost planet 2, simply because of what i'm used to for third person shooters. We should be adding buttons, not taking them away. That's why pc allows for deeper games, we need to be adding buttons while remaining comfortable and intuitive.
On camera control:
There are some games that benefit from having fixed or nearly fixed perspectives such as God of War, Metal Gear Solid (1&2), and Heavenly Sword. These games benefit from this because they designed to be like this from the ground up and are fairly linear. They also have the added benefit of every "stage" being a money shot with perfect lighting and composition. However, for non-linear open world games such as Mario 64, MGS3&4, and GTA, exploration with a user controlled camera is a large part of the experience (and being a photographer I am partial to this experience). With a fixed perspective we wouldn't have half as many nooks and crannies in which to hide Stars, rations, and hidden packages. This gives us the freedom to play the game, to look at the game, as we see fit. I have played Red Dead Redemption for well over 80 hours, but I finished the story long ago, and have barely played online. This is in no small part because I have had a great time scouring the desert for its scenic vistas and storms.
On controllers:
Developers aren't out to get you. Devs make games as best they can using the resources, and controllers available to them. And when those controllers aren't available they sometimes make them. This isn't a willy-nilly decision they make, this is a well researched LARGE investment. To make a game with a different peripheral or even a new control scheme (think SKATE or SoTC, (Triangle to jump?)) is a ballsy move. It's as if to say, "our game is so confidently good, and our control scheme is so new and intuitive that it is worth forgetting all the muscle memory you have programmed up to this point, and setting your familiar toolset aside for this one we have designed (and if it's a new peripheral you should pay extra for it)." But not all games in pre-existing genres set out to drastically change or improve the previous input mechanism. Most try to keep that "hook-y" feeling that drew and audience to the genre in the first place while improving in game mechanics and aesthetics because there are so many of those things that can be done cheaply. Changing controls does not retain the same feeling, nor does is it cheap.
If you're interested in control schemes or UI's, I'd recommend this TED talk. It gave me an amazed respect for anybody who does that sort of design. http://www.ted.com/talks/david_pogue_says_simplicity_sells.html
"you have to remove your thumb from the main button panel since you can't operate both at the same time without adopting some unorthodox, claw-like controller grip"
There is some rotation between tactile buttons and analog sticks but, the grip and the proximity makes it so it is not really unorthodox. There is precision grip and the muscles in the thumb can typcially handle such a job and with anything there is a limit which is fatigue or arthritis but, the PS Vita and console controls like the Xbox or PS3 controllers (for the most) part do not cause pain while someone is gaming on them. Perhaps for someone who's job it is to game all the time it could be a problem but, there are exercises, diets and even alternative (third party) controllers/attachments/etc that can really help that.
This was interesting to read but, I can not relate whatsoever. I hardly game as much but, I do know from both a developer and consumer standpoint that I want somethning ergonomic and that makes sense in the software that is created. That is why I want the PS Vita. The Ps Vita was engineered with developers in mind and they quite literally said to SCE engineers, 'we want analog sticks' and the device got that because it was a form of input the developers looked at and knew was integral for building the games they needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKpe2Ax8N2g
Even with the traditional input like Dual analog sticks, things like front touch, back touch and sixaxis was also integrated. Again, this is all because engineers and developers where asking and engineers where creating the best gaming machine they could. In terms of the range of user interfaces, it is hard to argue that the PS Vita is anything short of the most gaming centric device ever created.
though it was frustrating at first since some of the enemies can hit you on all sides without you knowing it.
but once you master this you can definitely get the hang of it.
@wanderingpixel
thank you for reminding me of Ape Escape series :)
another amazing game that doesn't let the camera get you in the way(i think it also had a similar button like God Hand where one button takes the camera forward)
though they are times that the right stick really help the gamer alot
for example.
the MGS1-MGS3(Original Snake Eater) had fixed camera and the right stick is only use when your flatten in the wall and want to control it. that's the only time you could use the right stick.
some say it made the bossfights easier, but i think it actually made the game better and sometimes even more challenging.
i think during the Fear bossfight in MGS3 where the camera is top down made the game a little less forgiving, since you can see him climbing trees and you only need to go further right or left of the screen to anticipate the attack.
in subsistence however you need to constantly move your camera on all directions to see where he attacks. sure it can be frustrating but it made the game more challenging since you definitely need to be aware of him in all directions. in Snake Eater you could just stick to one tree and wait to anticipate his attack.
all in all i think some games need the right stick for camera work, while others they don't really need it or they could use it for something else.
as for the 3DS, definitely need the dual stick. i mean it's always good to have choices right??? they could always think of unique ways like God Hand and Ape Escape. but more choice is always better :P
And everyone who doesn't prefer motion control is a prejudice moron? Maybe we've had bad experiences, don't want to bother with a completely optional control scheme for $80 or $150 dollars more. Maybe we actually PREFER a traditional controller.
And saying you don't need a second analog stick and then pointing to a controller with four buttons meant for camera control doesn't help your case, especially when most games on the N64 had terrible cameras. It was all I had during that time, and the only game that I remember not getting frustrated with the camera was StarFox 64. There's a reason with the Dualshock is still here and that three-handled monstrosity is gone.
"The Wii Remote and PlayStation Move trump the standard pad in every area when it comes to shooters. The complaints that players have against these alternatives, and the reasons devs haven't capitalized on them, are fear of needing to acclimate themselves with a new setup and ignorance of motion controls"
And it became painstakingly obvious that you don't know the first thing about console FPS's and you're not a real, or at least not an even halfway competent console FPS player.
Having to drag a cursor outside a dead zone to turn your screen is a design flaw that most games have wii / move games have to compensate for with some kind of "lock on", unless it's just not a very well developed or rushed game and doesn't play well to a real FPS player because of it.
Motion control's biggest problem in FPS games is that aiming and turning are tied to the remote and you're forced to do both simultaneously. This becomes a huge problem, because it forces you to point the remote at the screen at all times. Your arms will get tired.
At the same time, I thought the original Goldeneye and Perfect Dark played just fine with only one analog stick. I understand that people think those games are relics that need to stay in the '90s, but they also have the solution for motion control in FPS games: A STRAFING BUTTON.
I believe that FPS games that use motion control would be infinitely more playable if say, on the Wii, the Z button was used solely to strafe, and to use left and right on the analog stick to TURN left and right, not strafe left and right. That way, you can do your turns and you have a button for strafing WITHOUT being forced to point at the screen all the time, only when you're trying to line up a shot.
I personally find it baffling that nobody has ever thought of that solution (though, admittedly, that would require a third party developer to actually give a damn about developing Wii games). Never mind.
I completely disagree with everything this article says. Motion controls? Fixed cameras? Controlling the camera with a DS Touch screen as I assume that's what was being implied... Fuck that.
The second stick works. If it ain't broke and all that. There is simply no alternative. Mouse and keyboard is ideal, but balls to balancing that shit in my lap while playing console games.
Long live the second stick!
I just now thought of it. It doesn't account for aiming up and down. I was thinking about playing Twilight Princess earlier today, and I realized that while I use the analog stick to turn when I'm aiming with the bow or the hookshot, I'm standing still when I do it. That means in a FPS one either couldn't aim up and down while moving or shooting, or they couldn't move while aiming.
Well, this is why I'm not a game developer. ~_~
I dunno, its like saying 4 buttons is too many face buttons. Sure, we could go back to nintendos two button setup but why take a step back?
Oh, because its Nintendo. Duh.
1. Keyboard and mouse is superior in fps's
2. Nintendo should have put 2 sticks on the 3ds in the first place and who cares if it moves the camera, I like the feeling of both my hands doing something while I walk through scenic areas and I like being able to look at exactly what I want to
3. There is a time and place for everything, and a lot of gamers dont want to play with motion controls, except on relaxing games like cooking mama and what not. Plus wii did include GameCube controller slots(the best console controler ever made) and a classic controler
4. Keyboard and mouse
1. Keyboard and mouse is superior in fps's
2. Nintendo should have put 2 sticks on the 3ds in the first place and who cares if it moves the camera, I like the feeling of both my hands doing something while I walk through scenic areas and I like being able to look at exactly what I want to
3. There is a time and place for everything, and a lot of gamers dont want to play with motion controls, except on relaxing games like cooking mama and what not. Plus wii did include GameCube controller slots(the best console controler ever made) and a classic controler
4. Keyboard and mouse

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