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I like the response this article is getting more than the topic.
1. Keyboard and mouse is superior in fps's
2. Nintendo should have put 2 sticks on the 3ds in the first place and who cares if it moves the camera, I like the feeling of both my hands doing something while I walk through scenic areas and I like being able to look at exactly what I want to
3. There is a time and place for everything, and a lot of gamers dont want to play with motion controls, except on relaxing games like cooking mama and what not. Plus wii did include GameCube controller slots(the best console controler ever made) and a classic controler
4. Keyboard and mouse
1. Keyboard and mouse is superior in fps's
2. Nintendo should have put 2 sticks on the 3ds in the first place and who cares if it moves the camera, I like the feeling of both my hands doing something while I walk through scenic areas and I like being able to look at exactly what I want to
3. There is a time and place for everything, and a lot of gamers dont want to play with motion controls, except on relaxing games like cooking mama and what not. Plus wii did include GameCube controller slots(the best console controler ever made) and a classic controler
4. Keyboard and mouse
Best part about this was the photo-reference to Anesthetics. Don Hertzeldt is the man.
Oh, and you have some points and stuff too... yep...
Oh, and you have some points and stuff too... yep...
I always was puzzled how Kevin Levine's best reason for not using Move or being excited about Vita was "I'm a gamer" rather than "I'm a developer that can't think out of the box on controllers."
Anything that could be done in Bioshock for controls had been done in Metroid Prime Triolgy on a Wiimote. I hate that I have so little reason to get Move because there are plenty of developers that will never support it.
Anything that could be done in Bioshock for controls had been done in Metroid Prime Triolgy on a Wiimote. I hate that I have so little reason to get Move because there are plenty of developers that will never support it.
I'd fucking live mouse controls on my ps3 . Fragnstein doesn't emulate it brilliantly . Anyone who thinks the second stick is as accurate I'd talking shite- mouse moved 1-1 , stick has lag and doesn't control relatively and is also hindered by springback. If anything that second stick should be a trackball.
I will have to 100% disagree, almost everyone of my PSP games the major problem is that I do not get a a second stick.
Dual Stick gamming ( mostly fps) is really the most fun I have game, and before you come in a yell MOUSE! I ask how can I use a mouse on a PSVITA on the go?
Dual Stick gamming ( mostly fps) is really the most fun I have game, and before you come in a yell MOUSE! I ask how can I use a mouse on a PSVITA on the go?
Interesting op-ed piece. But there is no mention in this discussion of the PSP, or the PC.
I imagine dual joysitcks attempt to mimic the function of the mouse and keyboard on the PC, where 3D gaming originated. Mouse and keyboard controls are great on the PC. I've never found it as satisfying with dual joysticks. I guess they get the job done though, so nobody has really tried to find a better controller solution.
You didn't mention the PSP, but you did briefly mention "the claw." I just learned the claw going through Phantasy Star Portable 2. That is a game which is very difficult if you don't use the claw, but quite easy if you do, at least until the last boss. You pretty much HAVE to circle strafe the bosses to avoid damage, so camera direction has to be detached from movement, hence the claw. I got used to it. Maybe part of me even started to like it.
It made me wonder how these sorts of games are going to port over to the Vita, because as you said, how do we use the action buttons if the thumb is on the right joystick? Are we merely replacing a left-handed claw with a right-handed one?
Anyway, in a 3D game, we need freedom of camera. Where it is missing, like in God of War or Starcraft 2, I miss it. The game feels less for it. Free camera rotation is the future--and for FPSs or monster hunter games it makes for deeper better gameplay, not to mention is simply more satisfying.
The question is how to make it work on other platforms as well as a mouse and keyboard.
I imagine dual joysitcks attempt to mimic the function of the mouse and keyboard on the PC, where 3D gaming originated. Mouse and keyboard controls are great on the PC. I've never found it as satisfying with dual joysticks. I guess they get the job done though, so nobody has really tried to find a better controller solution.
You didn't mention the PSP, but you did briefly mention "the claw." I just learned the claw going through Phantasy Star Portable 2. That is a game which is very difficult if you don't use the claw, but quite easy if you do, at least until the last boss. You pretty much HAVE to circle strafe the bosses to avoid damage, so camera direction has to be detached from movement, hence the claw. I got used to it. Maybe part of me even started to like it.
It made me wonder how these sorts of games are going to port over to the Vita, because as you said, how do we use the action buttons if the thumb is on the right joystick? Are we merely replacing a left-handed claw with a right-handed one?
Anyway, in a 3D game, we need freedom of camera. Where it is missing, like in God of War or Starcraft 2, I miss it. The game feels less for it. Free camera rotation is the future--and for FPSs or monster hunter games it makes for deeper better gameplay, not to mention is simply more satisfying.
The question is how to make it work on other platforms as well as a mouse and keyboard.
"The Wii Remote and PlayStation Move trump the standard pad in every area when it comes to shooters."
I bought a Wii on the first day it was available. I played GoldenEye on the Wii and Conduit 2 on the Wii online for hours and hours, using the motion-tracking Wiimote and nunchuck almost exclusively. When I recently bought a PS3, it was mostly for fighting games. But when I tried BattleField 3 using the DualShock controller, it felt about a hundred times more natural than using the Wiimote and nunchuck.
There is no possible way you're going to convince me that "The complaints that players have against these alternatives are fear of needing to acclimate themselves with a new setup and ignorance of motion controls," because I know from personal experience that the Wiimote cannot compare to the Dualshock.
TL;DR:
I started playing FPS games with the Wiimote on the Wii, then switched to the Dualshock on the PS3, and have now realized that Dualshock is objectively better for FPS games.
I bought a Wii on the first day it was available. I played GoldenEye on the Wii and Conduit 2 on the Wii online for hours and hours, using the motion-tracking Wiimote and nunchuck almost exclusively. When I recently bought a PS3, it was mostly for fighting games. But when I tried BattleField 3 using the DualShock controller, it felt about a hundred times more natural than using the Wiimote and nunchuck.
There is no possible way you're going to convince me that "The complaints that players have against these alternatives are fear of needing to acclimate themselves with a new setup and ignorance of motion controls," because I know from personal experience that the Wiimote cannot compare to the Dualshock.
TL;DR:
I started playing FPS games with the Wiimote on the Wii, then switched to the Dualshock on the PS3, and have now realized that Dualshock is objectively better for FPS games.
I like some of the points you make, and there are some of times when I wish I could control the camera in some other way (open world games come to mind). But there would probably be many random, and often hilarious, moments I would have missed if I didn't have control of the camera in open world titles.
I like the camera in God of War because it's God of War. It's designed without any need for player camera control. Then I play Dark Souls and I want to control the camera myself. The only real issue I see here is the problem of not enough button/buttons in the wrong spots. If you have to create a claw with your hand to be able to move the camera and push a face button at the same time something is wrong. I would be okay with a redesign of controllers that fixed this.
Oh man I'm right there with you.
I think the first time it hit me that the second stick wasn't the staple of modern game design was playing through Super Mario Galaxy. There was some concern floating around about how someone would play a 3d platformer without a second stick, and some professional gaming journalists even wrote the game off without even playing it for not having a second stick. Yet the game somehow felt magnitudes better to play than Sunshine. The camera was hardly an issue at all, and I never felt somehow worse-off because the camera gave me pretty great angles on every jump and if the angle was strange, it was intended to be as a part of the challenge. In Sunshine you can drive yourself crazy trying to find the right angle on every jump, and don't even get me started on the bungee cord jumps, but even the simplest of jumps were often made bizarrely difficult due to the camera. Galaxy is a breeze to get into, but Galaxy had completely different level design that accommodated the camera.
I think that's the clincher, re-thinking the level design. So I was thinking about how right stick camera systems work in more open-environment style games. First off, in the grand scheme of game design 3d camera control isn't even very common. Most games have a fixed perspective like racers, RTS, fighters and 2D/2.5D games of all kinds. Then we have shooters which you could argue don't even belong on a right stick to begin with, and this is where it gets really tricky are the 3D action/adventure games and platformers.
Shooters have found a solution in motion controls as you so bravely pointed out, and that feels pretty great. It really does, the accuracy and speed with which I can get head shots with motion controls absolutely destroys the right stick. It's going to take awhile before motion controls are considered "ok" by the core audiences but it's a great solution right there.
As for 3rd person affairs it's tougher. Level design becomes an issue, predicting player movements and what they want to look at. Galaxy nailed it but also had very focused level design, everything was right in front of you. In a game like say, Jak and Daxter how would we go without the right stick? Maybe different camera styles the player switches between as needed, or just incredibly smart camera systems? Or just preset angles for every environment the player can hop between with the shoulder buttons? I think about that stuff all the time.
I think the first time it hit me that the second stick wasn't the staple of modern game design was playing through Super Mario Galaxy. There was some concern floating around about how someone would play a 3d platformer without a second stick, and some professional gaming journalists even wrote the game off without even playing it for not having a second stick. Yet the game somehow felt magnitudes better to play than Sunshine. The camera was hardly an issue at all, and I never felt somehow worse-off because the camera gave me pretty great angles on every jump and if the angle was strange, it was intended to be as a part of the challenge. In Sunshine you can drive yourself crazy trying to find the right angle on every jump, and don't even get me started on the bungee cord jumps, but even the simplest of jumps were often made bizarrely difficult due to the camera. Galaxy is a breeze to get into, but Galaxy had completely different level design that accommodated the camera.
I think that's the clincher, re-thinking the level design. So I was thinking about how right stick camera systems work in more open-environment style games. First off, in the grand scheme of game design 3d camera control isn't even very common. Most games have a fixed perspective like racers, RTS, fighters and 2D/2.5D games of all kinds. Then we have shooters which you could argue don't even belong on a right stick to begin with, and this is where it gets really tricky are the 3D action/adventure games and platformers.
Shooters have found a solution in motion controls as you so bravely pointed out, and that feels pretty great. It really does, the accuracy and speed with which I can get head shots with motion controls absolutely destroys the right stick. It's going to take awhile before motion controls are considered "ok" by the core audiences but it's a great solution right there.
As for 3rd person affairs it's tougher. Level design becomes an issue, predicting player movements and what they want to look at. Galaxy nailed it but also had very focused level design, everything was right in front of you. In a game like say, Jak and Daxter how would we go without the right stick? Maybe different camera styles the player switches between as needed, or just incredibly smart camera systems? Or just preset angles for every environment the player can hop between with the shoulder buttons? I think about that stuff all the time.
I am calling bullsh*t. I knew i waasnt buying a 3DS from the first time I saw it. never bought a PSP either. The Vita is the first handheld I will have owned since a Gameboy and I can't wait. AS soon as I saw it only had 1 analog, I was out. Control is key.
By the way, mouse and keyboard is shit, in my opinion. Particularly the keyboard half of the equation. A more inelegant device than the keyboard has never been used to control games. Not designed for anything remotely similar to gaming, it is not conducive to nor comfortable for it by any stretch of the imagination. Controlling with a keyboard feels like work. I "play" games.
Even the mouse, a device firmly planted on a desk, reliant entirely on that surface. How crude. Hunched over a desk with one hand arced over a keyboard, with the other resting uncomfortably on a wooden surface, while one's fingers awkwardly nudge a "mouse" back and forth.
So utterly undesirable.
Even the mouse, a device firmly planted on a desk, reliant entirely on that surface. How crude. Hunched over a desk with one hand arced over a keyboard, with the other resting uncomfortably on a wooden surface, while one's fingers awkwardly nudge a "mouse" back and forth.
So utterly undesirable.
@Xzianna
You mention a strafe button might be the solution. If you have a PSP, give Phantasy Star Portable 2 a try, because it has one. The left shoulder button is the "target" button, which keeps the camera pointed in the direction of your target even as you move around it. I tried to use this initially, but it just didn't come together in practice, and I ended up settling with the claw.
You mention a strafe button might be the solution. If you have a PSP, give Phantasy Star Portable 2 a try, because it has one. The left shoulder button is the "target" button, which keeps the camera pointed in the direction of your target even as you move around it. I tried to use this initially, but it just didn't come together in practice, and I ended up settling with the claw.
lol. the whole article about some bullshit and not a mention of mouse.
btw I think it's funny that PC gamers don't need second analog for movement. WASD does the job very well. Probably because it use 3 finger instead of one.
from every stand point mouse + keyboard is perfect... except that you need a table to put them.
btw I think it's funny that PC gamers don't need second analog for movement. WASD does the job very well. Probably because it use 3 finger instead of one.
from every stand point mouse + keyboard is perfect... except that you need a table to put them.
try playing Dead Space, or Renegade ops without the second stick, i dare you.
dual-shock controller is perfect the way it is - there is a matter of preference in xbox or ps left stick and d-pad position, but apart from that, it's perfect. Why? because you can play any type of game there is with it. Just like kb+mouse. are they both ideal for every single game, though? no. fps games, RTS's, most RPGs will in 90% cases be more comfortable to play with kb+mouse, utilizing the amount of keys, precision and lacking the need in analogue controls. most adventure games and platformers will almost always benefit from analogue control and the way, how you can use every available button with ease.
But even genres or "types" of games can sometimes benefit from unexpected control preference - Dead Space should be, obviously, played with kb+mouse, since it's a tps, with high focus on action, meaning the need in precision. But on practice, it's designed in such way, that it plays much better on a dual shock-type gamepad. The inventory is easier to use with d-pad (since it's in real time),and most weapons have wide shots, to compensate the precision. Could it be designed for kb+mouse? definitely. Would Dead Space be the same game? no.
Ideally, there would be a controller for everything. But, in the end, it would, in fact, only complicate things, and not help things. I'm all for interesting ways to control the univer-- sorry, to control the games, the devices or whatever else. I really like the idea of motion control, of kinect, as touch screens. But they shouldn't be treated like "this is a better way of control" unless they ARE a better way of control as in "the most balanced, intuitive and all-around way". Motion control is not it. touch screens either. nor is kinect. nor is an old NES controller. nor just mouse. if you exchange dual shock standard for any of these, you will restrict developers more, than you will free them.
dual-shock controller is perfect the way it is - there is a matter of preference in xbox or ps left stick and d-pad position, but apart from that, it's perfect. Why? because you can play any type of game there is with it. Just like kb+mouse. are they both ideal for every single game, though? no. fps games, RTS's, most RPGs will in 90% cases be more comfortable to play with kb+mouse, utilizing the amount of keys, precision and lacking the need in analogue controls. most adventure games and platformers will almost always benefit from analogue control and the way, how you can use every available button with ease.
But even genres or "types" of games can sometimes benefit from unexpected control preference - Dead Space should be, obviously, played with kb+mouse, since it's a tps, with high focus on action, meaning the need in precision. But on practice, it's designed in such way, that it plays much better on a dual shock-type gamepad. The inventory is easier to use with d-pad (since it's in real time),and most weapons have wide shots, to compensate the precision. Could it be designed for kb+mouse? definitely. Would Dead Space be the same game? no.
Ideally, there would be a controller for everything. But, in the end, it would, in fact, only complicate things, and not help things. I'm all for interesting ways to control the univer-- sorry, to control the games, the devices or whatever else. I really like the idea of motion control, of kinect, as touch screens. But they shouldn't be treated like "this is a better way of control" unless they ARE a better way of control as in "the most balanced, intuitive and all-around way". Motion control is not it. touch screens either. nor is kinect. nor is an old NES controller. nor just mouse. if you exchange dual shock standard for any of these, you will restrict developers more, than you will free them.
I stopped reading when you compared user-controlled cameras to having to control the camera direction in a film.
That is in no way a logical comparison. And you consider yourself a logical person... I don't get it.
If films were an interactive form of entertainment, not a passive one, then this might actually make sense. Giving the player control over the camera is akin to giving humans the freedom to look around in everyday life. I wouldn't want someone controlling what I got to look at everyday, and I certainly don't want that in my virtual worlds either.
And yeah... people who don't like sticks for their games tend to be PC gamers, so they're covered there. I really don't understand what you're getting at.
You are griping about something that really doesn't make sense to gripe about. You didn't offer any notion of a sensible solution and seemingly would prefer to have games just direct you around without the freedom to explore your surroundings thoroughly.
Imagine Skyrim without the second analog stick. That would be horrible. I just don't really get it.
If this is just about the uselessness of a second stick on the 3DS, just say that instead. The second stick is just as important to the modern console as the first stick. Otherwise it would be the equivalent of a car with gas and brake pedals, but no steering wheel. Shit doesn't make a lick of sense.
People have options if the stick bothers them... Kinect, Move, and the Wii Remote are great for those people... even then, would you have complete camera control taken away? I don't get it. Do you want to play Lethal Enforcers all day?
Eh. Whatever.
That is in no way a logical comparison. And you consider yourself a logical person... I don't get it.
If films were an interactive form of entertainment, not a passive one, then this might actually make sense. Giving the player control over the camera is akin to giving humans the freedom to look around in everyday life. I wouldn't want someone controlling what I got to look at everyday, and I certainly don't want that in my virtual worlds either.
And yeah... people who don't like sticks for their games tend to be PC gamers, so they're covered there. I really don't understand what you're getting at.
You are griping about something that really doesn't make sense to gripe about. You didn't offer any notion of a sensible solution and seemingly would prefer to have games just direct you around without the freedom to explore your surroundings thoroughly.
Imagine Skyrim without the second analog stick. That would be horrible. I just don't really get it.
If this is just about the uselessness of a second stick on the 3DS, just say that instead. The second stick is just as important to the modern console as the first stick. Otherwise it would be the equivalent of a car with gas and brake pedals, but no steering wheel. Shit doesn't make a lick of sense.
People have options if the stick bothers them... Kinect, Move, and the Wii Remote are great for those people... even then, would you have complete camera control taken away? I don't get it. Do you want to play Lethal Enforcers all day?
Eh. Whatever.
Your movie analogy was awful. Wouldn't you hate it if you watched a movie and had to tell the actors where to go? Or when to start killing? Seriously having control over something as significant as the camera should be a plus. Unless you want all your games to be interactive cutscenes.
By the way second analog wasn't a product of 3D. It was a product of attempting to bring PC mentality to consoles. They wanted to bring shooters on consoles and have control over camera. Something that PC gamers had and console didn't. All other genres took this element too.
Mega... please... just stick to writing about Nintendo. Reading your opinions about dual-stick controllers and games is like reading a fish's tips for riding a bicycle.
Nah, sticks are fine. It's buttons that are a crutch. Why do we need 4 face buttons on our controllers? When you go into the menu, you can only use 2 buttons. Confirm and cancel. And the computer mouse only has 2 main clicks.
And fighting games, sure they have the complex controls and all, but do you really need anything other than an attack and block button. In fact, if they just made fithting games turn based, you could just use one button and menu options for attack and defend.
And FPS games? Just have a shoot button and a reload button. Or just have it turn based and go back with a menu.
See! If we make all games stick to my control scheme, they'll all be better*. Buttons are unnecessary.
*Better = JRPGs.
This was a lot of sarcasm and strawmen to say "I disagree."
And fighting games, sure they have the complex controls and all, but do you really need anything other than an attack and block button. In fact, if they just made fithting games turn based, you could just use one button and menu options for attack and defend.
And FPS games? Just have a shoot button and a reload button. Or just have it turn based and go back with a menu.
See! If we make all games stick to my control scheme, they'll all be better*. Buttons are unnecessary.
*Better = JRPGs.
This was a lot of sarcasm and strawmen to say "I disagree."
Tony, worse than being generally stupid, you are an absolute ass about it. SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GET A NEW JOB.
I'm not going to respond to everything here, but I do want to say...
@Magnalon
I may not have extensive experience outside Nintendo consoles in the modern age (though I do have plenty of PS2 experience and even mentioned God of War and Katamari as positive examples), but I'm pretty positive that most trends I mention are applicable across the board.
@On Monster Hunter
I play Monster Hunter 3 with the Classic Controller Pro. The new camera system in 3G is a very, very welcome addition for me.
@On Wii Remote/Move in FPS
I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time.
@Magnalon
I may not have extensive experience outside Nintendo consoles in the modern age (though I do have plenty of PS2 experience and even mentioned God of War and Katamari as positive examples), but I'm pretty positive that most trends I mention are applicable across the board.
@On Monster Hunter
I play Monster Hunter 3 with the Classic Controller Pro. The new camera system in 3G is a very, very welcome addition for me.
@On Wii Remote/Move in FPS
I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time.
"I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time."
That's because, to my knowledge, every FPS with motion control utilizes a great deal of aim assistance... WAY more than any stick shooter offers. They practically point your gun and fire it for you.
That's because, to my knowledge, every FPS with motion control utilizes a great deal of aim assistance... WAY more than any stick shooter offers. They practically point your gun and fire it for you.
I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time.
If there was a way to do this where I could use an Xbox controller, I would accept this challenge in a heartbeat, and redefine your use of the word "guarantee". Seriously, you need to realize that YOUR ability, comfort level and gaming needs regarding a dual-stick controller does not indicate the one, true reality of the situation.
If there was a way to do this where I could use an Xbox controller, I would accept this challenge in a heartbeat, and redefine your use of the word "guarantee". Seriously, you need to realize that YOUR ability, comfort level and gaming needs regarding a dual-stick controller does not indicate the one, true reality of the situation.
@zaheer
Did u fucking time travel here from 2279? How are games then? No one use controller devices anymore where you're from I assume.
Did u fucking time travel here from 2279? How are games then? No one use controller devices anymore where you're from I assume.
The single nub was part of the reason I never took the 3DS seriously. A console that can render three-dimensional worlds is obliged to have a user-controlled camera, and twin sticks is the best answer without some kind of Matrix mindjacking. Sorry if you don't get it Tony.
@Blasto
It's Tony fucking Ponce. He has an inflated and untouchable ego. He will never admit that he is/was wrong, he'll just make fun of everyone for not being him. Fuck him.
It's Tony fucking Ponce. He has an inflated and untouchable ego. He will never admit that he is/was wrong, he'll just make fun of everyone for not being him. Fuck him.
But I like controlling the camera :( it makes me feel like the cinematographer of the video game.
But I'm always open-minded to new ideas, so if the industry decides to do something out of the norm I may give it a try...as long as I don't look like an idiot while playing it.
But I'm always open-minded to new ideas, so if the industry decides to do something out of the norm I may give it a try...as long as I don't look like an idiot while playing it.
Tony, the accuracy/skill of players using an input is not the be all and end all of it. Not everybody wants to be the controller and many in fact play games to relax.
@Tony
I thought the way you wrote that you came off as an ass. With that last comment, I pretty much now know that you simply ARE an ass. Don't tell me to do something neither of us is going to do and call it conclusive proof you are right.
I prefer playing Killzone 3 with a controller. Stop trying to tell me I'm playing it wrong.
I thought the way you wrote that you came off as an ass. With that last comment, I pretty much now know that you simply ARE an ass. Don't tell me to do something neither of us is going to do and call it conclusive proof you are right.
I prefer playing Killzone 3 with a controller. Stop trying to tell me I'm playing it wrong.
I would rather have a mini trackball than a second analog stick. Then you get analog movement and mouse like 1:1 camera control. The Vita can also achieve this with the back trackpad.
You say that developers should be in charge of the camera, not the player. But I think this depends on the game. Sometimes it's best if the player can look around at their environment freely.
"I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time"
You are dead, dead wrong, and I'm going to explain why.
Firstly, you want to center your argument around the Move, because the Wii is right out when it comes to competitive FPS play. The titles are extremely scaled down both visually and content wise, and the online infrastructure/clan support just is not there. I mean, Activision is running a MW3 promotion where you get points based on previous title play, and came right out and said "the Wii version is opted out due to lack of online support". It's pitiful.
So that leaves the PC (which is self explanatory), 360, and Move/Dualshock.
Personally, I play every major FPS game when it comes out. I used to play console shooters semi-pro, and know some current MLG players and their habits. A lot of them will buy a $100 dongle/accessory that allows them to use M/KB on either the PS3 or 360 regardless of official support; because they want the most competitive advantage, they opt for the best control scheme - the M/KB. Which leads us to our second option: Dual Sticks.
Dual Sticks, quite simply, are the preferred method of play for MLG players in a console setting. They do not use the Move controller: it's regarded as a gimmick, because of dead-zone issues, and, let's face it - these guys game sometimes professionally for 10+ hours a day - holding a wand up for that long is just not possible or desireable.
It's for these reasons, among many, that hardcore FPS gamers will not use wands as a legitimate control system.
Personally, I plunked down like $300+ for a Kinect, a Move kit, and Motion Plus.
There are plenty of good games to enjoy with motion controls, and you shouldn't feel threatened by real FPS gamers. I mean, personally I love to rock out the Move wand and play a little KZ3 from time to time, but it's not a competitive method of play.
I don't know if you're trying to troll or not, but don't act like you really know the 360/PC/PS3 FPS community, because you don't.
Unless you game with dual sticks often with people who actually know what they're talking about, it's really hard to take you seriously on these topics, playing on a system that for instance, comprises about 1% of the online COD community (not copies sold: online activity). Stick to Nintendo stuff: you're the local authority on it and you should flaunt that.
You are dead, dead wrong, and I'm going to explain why.
Firstly, you want to center your argument around the Move, because the Wii is right out when it comes to competitive FPS play. The titles are extremely scaled down both visually and content wise, and the online infrastructure/clan support just is not there. I mean, Activision is running a MW3 promotion where you get points based on previous title play, and came right out and said "the Wii version is opted out due to lack of online support". It's pitiful.
So that leaves the PC (which is self explanatory), 360, and Move/Dualshock.
Personally, I play every major FPS game when it comes out. I used to play console shooters semi-pro, and know some current MLG players and their habits. A lot of them will buy a $100 dongle/accessory that allows them to use M/KB on either the PS3 or 360 regardless of official support; because they want the most competitive advantage, they opt for the best control scheme - the M/KB. Which leads us to our second option: Dual Sticks.
Dual Sticks, quite simply, are the preferred method of play for MLG players in a console setting. They do not use the Move controller: it's regarded as a gimmick, because of dead-zone issues, and, let's face it - these guys game sometimes professionally for 10+ hours a day - holding a wand up for that long is just not possible or desireable.
It's for these reasons, among many, that hardcore FPS gamers will not use wands as a legitimate control system.
Personally, I plunked down like $300+ for a Kinect, a Move kit, and Motion Plus.
There are plenty of good games to enjoy with motion controls, and you shouldn't feel threatened by real FPS gamers. I mean, personally I love to rock out the Move wand and play a little KZ3 from time to time, but it's not a competitive method of play.
I don't know if you're trying to troll or not, but don't act like you really know the 360/PC/PS3 FPS community, because you don't.
Unless you game with dual sticks often with people who actually know what they're talking about, it's really hard to take you seriously on these topics, playing on a system that for instance, comprises about 1% of the online COD community (not copies sold: online activity). Stick to Nintendo stuff: you're the local authority on it and you should flaunt that.
@DinnertimeNinja
The original DS came with a thumbpad connected to the wrist strap, effectively turning your thumb into a right analog stick.
The original DS came with a thumbpad connected to the wrist strap, effectively turning your thumb into a right analog stick.
"I challenge you to find two players, equal in skill, with both twin-sticks and wand experience and have them play against each other with opposing control scheme. I GUARANTEE that the wand player will beat out the pad player 99% of the time."
Replace wand with m/k and this goes from making utter nonsense to actual sense.
Wand =/= m/k, yet you keep acting like it is.
It does not share the same dominance over dual shock as m/k due to many flaws mentioned throughout the comments.
No offense, but this whole post really screams ignorant nintendo fanboyism :/
Replace wand with m/k and this goes from making utter nonsense to actual sense.
Wand =/= m/k, yet you keep acting like it is.
It does not share the same dominance over dual shock as m/k due to many flaws mentioned throughout the comments.
No offense, but this whole post really screams ignorant nintendo fanboyism :/
@Akelz7
Did I ever insult anyone directly?
@Magnalon
I side with Holmes' article on not blindly following the dictations of the competitive sector because their rules and restrictions take into consideration factors beyond those of your typical player. On top of that, some of their trends aren't trends because of objective decisions but rather because "so and so did this, so I'll do it as well."
I game with dual sticks. I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that I don't. The last generation was all dual sticks. I did the dual stick thing with the PS1. I frequently play Wii games with the Classic Controller. I know exactly what I like and don't like about them, and I don't think my opinion should be so easily discounted because I'm not "sitting at the popular table," so to speak.
On a related note, I'll stop talking about non-Nintendo consoles the day the outlets that couldn't give two shits about Nintendo stop talking about its consoles. I think that's a fair balance.
Did I ever insult anyone directly?
@Magnalon
I side with Holmes' article on not blindly following the dictations of the competitive sector because their rules and restrictions take into consideration factors beyond those of your typical player. On top of that, some of their trends aren't trends because of objective decisions but rather because "so and so did this, so I'll do it as well."
I game with dual sticks. I'm not sure where the idea is coming from that I don't. The last generation was all dual sticks. I did the dual stick thing with the PS1. I frequently play Wii games with the Classic Controller. I know exactly what I like and don't like about them, and I don't think my opinion should be so easily discounted because I'm not "sitting at the popular table," so to speak.
On a related note, I'll stop talking about non-Nintendo consoles the day the outlets that couldn't give two shits about Nintendo stop talking about its consoles. I think that's a fair balance.
I should add: if you're talking about casual play, by all means preach brother. I bought a Move specifically for Wii style RE5 controls, because it's so fun.
But as previously mentioned, when you start to act like an authority on something you have zero experience in, you really start to lose your luster. Competitive players simply do not want to hold up a wand for 10+ hours a day when they could use a better, more comfortable control method.
If Wands were competitive, you'd see these pros start picking them up. I know these people: they're WAACs (win at all costs). If something gives them an advantage, they will spend whatever it takes buying it, and whatever time it takes mastering it. But they don't bother with Wands. There's a reason for that, and it doesn't have to bruise your ego or your own personal experience admitting that.
But as previously mentioned, when you start to act like an authority on something you have zero experience in, you really start to lose your luster. Competitive players simply do not want to hold up a wand for 10+ hours a day when they could use a better, more comfortable control method.
If Wands were competitive, you'd see these pros start picking them up. I know these people: they're WAACs (win at all costs). If something gives them an advantage, they will spend whatever it takes buying it, and whatever time it takes mastering it. But they don't bother with Wands. There's a reason for that, and it doesn't have to bruise your ego or your own personal experience admitting that.
"I'll stop talking about non-Nintendo consoles the day the outlets that couldn't give two shits about Nintendo stop talking about its consoles. I think that's a fair balance."
Two proud wrongs don't make a right.
Stick to what you know, and you'll help make Dtoid less like Kotaku.
Two proud wrongs don't make a right.
Stick to what you know, and you'll help make Dtoid less like Kotaku.
Tony Ponce. You're wrong. Go back to your corner. Play with your joystick or whatever. And leave the things dear to me ALONE.
Holmes' article was on an entirely different article chief. It was mostly about prescribed fighting game tiers and software oriented strategies. It's really hard to dictate what is wrong/right based on individual frames/fighters. What works works. People have won tournies with "low tier" characters. WAACers will WAAC, and they'll find a way.
Unfortunately, using a wand for an all day tourney simply does not compare to using a low tier fighting game character. The argument is utterly different and cannot compare.
Also, that "popular opinion" happens to involve skillful knowledgeable players. Your pride may allow you to ignore them for personal reasons, but there is a method to their madness.
Unfortunately, using a wand for an all day tourney simply does not compare to using a low tier fighting game character. The argument is utterly different and cannot compare.
Also, that "popular opinion" happens to involve skillful knowledgeable players. Your pride may allow you to ignore them for personal reasons, but there is a method to their madness.
@Magnalon
I didn't bring up the competitive sector in the article. And anyone who is "holding up their hand for ten hours" is really playing wrong. I play with the device right there on my lap. I make the tiniest of wrist motions.
Most likely the reason why the Move isn't used in competition is the same reason Sixaxis and DualShock 3 were banned at EVO. Wireless controllers can be a headache in tourneys.
Two wrongs may not make a right, but I do enjoy discussing sacred cows of gaming.
I didn't bring up the competitive sector in the article. And anyone who is "holding up their hand for ten hours" is really playing wrong. I play with the device right there on my lap. I make the tiniest of wrist motions.
Most likely the reason why the Move isn't used in competition is the same reason Sixaxis and DualShock 3 were banned at EVO. Wireless controllers can be a headache in tourneys.
Two wrongs may not make a right, but I do enjoy discussing sacred cows of gaming.
I would also like to say that only half of keyboard and mouse is awesome - the mouse part. I've played PC games for many years and I still find myself sometimes missing the key I need. There's no tactile sense associated with the right key since they all feel the same.
IMO pointer controls > analog controls for FPS's, because you're not tied to aiming only at the center of the screen. When you're using analog control, you have to wait to turn the camera until the center is over the other person, but with pointer controls you just point it at them and shoot which takes much less time. It is possible to make an FPS where moving the analog stick would move the reticle on the screen in much the same way a pointer does it, but pointer controls are a more natural way to do it.
"these guys game sometimes professionally for 10+ hours a day - holding a wand up for that long is just not possible or desireable."
Since when do you need to actually hold up your arms when using pointer controls? Unless you have your TV set up much too high or much too low, you can rest the wand in your lap. Pointer controls only require a bare minimum of movement, which is entirely possible to do for many hours at a time. I mean seriously, it isn't possible to make slight hand movements for ten hours a day? If you can move a computer mouse for 10 hours at a time, you can use pointer controls for 10 hours at a time. It is almost the exact same amount of movement required, unless you set the sensitivity ridiculously low or something.
"these guys game sometimes professionally for 10+ hours a day - holding a wand up for that long is just not possible or desireable."
Since when do you need to actually hold up your arms when using pointer controls? Unless you have your TV set up much too high or much too low, you can rest the wand in your lap. Pointer controls only require a bare minimum of movement, which is entirely possible to do for many hours at a time. I mean seriously, it isn't possible to make slight hand movements for ten hours a day? If you can move a computer mouse for 10 hours at a time, you can use pointer controls for 10 hours at a time. It is almost the exact same amount of movement required, unless you set the sensitivity ridiculously low or something.
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