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I have a friend that swears by Toribash. I tried for an hour, and I just can't get my head around the game.
Indie games are very hit or miss. I consider them like I do pop artists....some demonstrate genius while others demonstrate fad.
Dwarf Fortress actually isn't all that hard to play, once you get the hang of things, and it's really fucking good.
Hell, a few friends and I could probably teach you through Skype, if you so wished.
Toribash, however; looks fucking insane.
Hell, a few friends and I could probably teach you through Skype, if you so wished.
Toribash, however; looks fucking insane.
Toribash played by the really good players is amazing to watch.
Toribash for your first few solo tries is a complete and utter mess.
What really brought Toribash alive for me was watching and getting beat up in the multiplayer.
No question: The interface for Toribash as a stand alone thing is abbhorent. But Toribash's multiplayer (it really is the meat of the experience) assists in finding the appreciation and wonderment of the thing.
You can see everyone's "moves" in real time before the action activates, so it helps to understand what sort of moves are possible with what joint flexes.
Also, watching the demo replays included in the download is a real treat.
Toribash for your first few solo tries is a complete and utter mess.
What really brought Toribash alive for me was watching and getting beat up in the multiplayer.
No question: The interface for Toribash as a stand alone thing is abbhorent. But Toribash's multiplayer (it really is the meat of the experience) assists in finding the appreciation and wonderment of the thing.
You can see everyone's "moves" in real time before the action activates, so it helps to understand what sort of moves are possible with what joint flexes.
Also, watching the demo replays included in the download is a real treat.
It figures that I really enjoy both of those games.
While I could get back into Dwarf Fortress after not playing it for a while, though, Toribash was pretty much impossible to start playing again.
While I could get back into Dwarf Fortress after not playing it for a while, though, Toribash was pretty much impossible to start playing again.
I feel like the question is a kind of false choice. Take football. Is football at fault for being a physically demanding sport, or am I at fault for not being in really good shape? Neither is at fault. Gaming, after all, is supposed to be about having fun. To some people, reading an entire wiki to learn to play the game is fun. To others, they would prefer to just be able to pick it up and easily figure it out.
While Dwarf Fortress could possibly have an introductory tutorial, just the fact that the wiki has an entire entry just to the handling of cats leads me to think that said tutorial would be insanely long, and likely quite boring. You would still be stuck with your wiki problem - do you really want to endure a three hour tutorial in order to play the game?
That said, there are probably a number of things the developers for these games could do to try and lesson the initial learning curve.
While Dwarf Fortress could possibly have an introductory tutorial, just the fact that the wiki has an entire entry just to the handling of cats leads me to think that said tutorial would be insanely long, and likely quite boring. You would still be stuck with your wiki problem - do you really want to endure a three hour tutorial in order to play the game?
That said, there are probably a number of things the developers for these games could do to try and lesson the initial learning curve.
Toribash and me have a conflictibng relationship. I bought it when it was shareware because I liked it so much and got good at it. Then I stopped, came back, sucked beyond belief and left. I came back to it again, played well and had a great time, then left. It's an up down game for me...
There is a very long thread on a forum I go to regularly on Dwarf Fortress. It looks like such an amazing and entertaining game. I love reading about all the stupid crap that happens to people when playing it. I just don't get it tho. It's the interface, for sure. It's menu after menu after menu buried in menus. I keep trying it, and I always get lost.
There is a very long thread on a forum I go to regularly on Dwarf Fortress. It looks like such an amazing and entertaining game. I love reading about all the stupid crap that happens to people when playing it. I just don't get it tho. It's the interface, for sure. It's menu after menu after menu buried in menus. I keep trying it, and I always get lost.
@blake Please do.
The worst thing is that sitting through a match can take up GRAND amounts of time.
The best thing is getting to a point where you figureout how to jump, curl up, perform a flip and unleash a decapitating roundhouse kick on your opponent . . .
And there was that time I ripped a dude in half "with my bare hands" using the grab mechanic of the game . . .
Or the time I sword dueled and sliced my own legs off . . .
If you're at all interested in physics, martial arts, amputation, strategy or figure animation, its worth a try, imo
The worst thing is that sitting through a match can take up GRAND amounts of time.
The best thing is getting to a point where you figureout how to jump, curl up, perform a flip and unleash a decapitating roundhouse kick on your opponent . . .
And there was that time I ripped a dude in half "with my bare hands" using the grab mechanic of the game . . .
Or the time I sword dueled and sliced my own legs off . . .
If you're at all interested in physics, martial arts, amputation, strategy or figure animation, its worth a try, imo
Here is the set of youtube tutorials for Dwarf Fortress..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc&fmt=18
..22 of them posted as of 23Jan2009. I played along as he showed how things worked. Very well done, and extremely helpful.
It really is an amazing game... I suggest anyone interested take a look at the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc&fmt=18
..22 of them posted as of 23Jan2009. I played along as he showed how things worked. Very well done, and extremely helpful.
It really is an amazing game... I suggest anyone interested take a look at the link.
Two essential things for Dwarf Fortress.
1: An actual graphical tileset:
http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/df.htm
2: In-depth walkthrough of an fortress:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/01/08/losing-is-fun-learning-is-better-dwarf-fortress-tutorials/
If you'll take the time to learn Dwarf Fortress, you will find a game with an unmatched level of detail and depth. I just wish they'd work on user interface, it drastically needs an overhaul.
1: An actual graphical tileset:
http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/df.htm
2: In-depth walkthrough of an fortress:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/01/08/losing-is-fun-learning-is-better-dwarf-fortress-tutorials/
If you'll take the time to learn Dwarf Fortress, you will find a game with an unmatched level of detail and depth. I just wish they'd work on user interface, it drastically needs an overhaul.
Also, here is the link to the Dwarf Fortress tutorials by Captain_Duck on the bay 12 forums..
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28477.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28477.0
@Exquisitor:
Toady's actually working on the Interface, but that update's coming MUCH later.
Is IS still in Alpha, afterall.
Toady's actually working on the Interface, but that update's coming MUCH later.
Is IS still in Alpha, afterall.
Dwarf Fortress really isn't hard to learn. I'm a moron at RTSs and I still love DF. And with the tileset Exquisitor linked to the game becomes truly beautiful. There is nothing more satisfying than building a huge fortress, and nothing more depressing than watching a single squad of goblins massacre your entire army, causing the official clerk to get so depressed he goes on a killing spree, aided by his legendary stats gained from performing his clerkly duties, and ends up killing the entire population of the fortress before succumbing to the pain of his ripped off leg and gouged out eyes. Well that second one probably won't happen to you.
I decided to check out Toribash, just for kicks. On my second attempt I managed to somehow tear my own arm off (ouch).
I kept trying though and eventually landed my first punch. The game has some potential, if only to have the ability to turn to a friend and tell them you can play this incredibly hard and complicated fight simulator.
A few of us are on it now, though.
I kept trying though and eventually landed my first punch. The game has some potential, if only to have the ability to turn to a friend and tell them you can play this incredibly hard and complicated fight simulator.
A few of us are on it now, though.
I play both of these, someone like you'll have to play them for a couple of days or weeks to appreciate em.
Toribash and my brain are fully incompatible. This I learned a long time ago.
I've never played Dwarf Fortress, and wasn't planning to, but this comment thread has changed my mind.
I've never played Dwarf Fortress, and wasn't planning to, but this comment thread has changed my mind.
I couldn't get into Toribash that much. I tried it for a couple of weeks with online matches but I don't think I won a single round against anyone. It's a good game. I just suck at it.
Dwarf Fortress is fucking insanely complex and one of the most amazingly detailed games I've ever seen. I seem to suck at it too. I don't want to spend hours reading through a wiki just trying to understand how to play the basics. But I gave it a try. I'll need to try it again sometime to see if I really like it.
Dwarf Fortress is fucking insanely complex and one of the most amazingly detailed games I've ever seen. I seem to suck at it too. I don't want to spend hours reading through a wiki just trying to understand how to play the basics. But I gave it a try. I'll need to try it again sometime to see if I really like it.
Toribash suffers from a horrible multiplayer experience. The complex mechanics require lots and lots of practice to begin to get a hold of how to keep from falling down, let alone kicking any ass. Jumping into a room with ten guys and waiting fifteen minutes to play for 30 seconds doesn't allow for the kind of lather, rinse, repeat you really need to learn this game. Futzing about in single player doesn't really help that much, and it's boring as hell.
Anthony, you should do an Indie Nation about I Wish I Were The Moon.
http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/2008/09/03/i-wish-i-were-the-moon/
(You've probably already done one, I'm unsure.)
http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/2008/09/03/i-wish-i-were-the-moon/
(You've probably already done one, I'm unsure.)
Toribash confuses the hell out of me. Though watching a ragdoll tear off its own head to kill its opponent was funny as hell.
Dwarf Fortress on the other hand just takes getting used to.
"The interface is coming--it's not coming in your lifetime but it's coming." - Toady One (Dwarf Fortress developer)
DF is all about an evolving game world, if you character dies, no problem, start another one and hear insults about your previous character by the thing that killed him. Beat a man to death with his own arm. Steal a sword, fight a town guard, get the sword stuck in his chest and watch the entire town fight him as he's declared the thief. Or heck, just read the stories posted by other people, the fort of Boatmurdered is a famous one (it was a community game by the guys at SomethingAweful--I think they started out playing it to bash it, then got into it, then turned the fort into a hellhole).
One notable quote:
"Come on guys, we have a nice settlement, why didn't you stick around? Was it the ashen wasteland? The bloodstained gates? Was it the screams of madmen or the stench of death? We've got awful nice engravings of some fucking cheese here, come the fuck on in!"
Dwarf Fortress on the other hand just takes getting used to.
"The interface is coming--it's not coming in your lifetime but it's coming." - Toady One (Dwarf Fortress developer)
DF is all about an evolving game world, if you character dies, no problem, start another one and hear insults about your previous character by the thing that killed him. Beat a man to death with his own arm. Steal a sword, fight a town guard, get the sword stuck in his chest and watch the entire town fight him as he's declared the thief. Or heck, just read the stories posted by other people, the fort of Boatmurdered is a famous one (it was a community game by the guys at SomethingAweful--I think they started out playing it to bash it, then got into it, then turned the fort into a hellhole).
One notable quote:
"Come on guys, we have a nice settlement, why didn't you stick around? Was it the ashen wasteland? The bloodstained gates? Was it the screams of madmen or the stench of death? We've got awful nice engravings of some fucking cheese here, come the fuck on in!"
I know it's old but hey, START HERE!
http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-utter-newby-tutorial-for-dwarf-fortress-part-1-wtf/
and it'll get you up na dgoing.. it's insane...
http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-utter-newby-tutorial-for-dwarf-fortress-part-1-wtf/
and it'll get you up na dgoing.. it's insane...
Yes, Dwarf Fortress has no built-in tutorial or learning curve, and yes, the interface is so dense as to almost be impenetrable. I could say that real gamers don't need to be coddled with these training wheels, but that's not the point (and a little bit elitist).
Dwarf Fortress, as it is currently, is not meant for casual gamers. Heck, it's not really meant for anybody except for testing purposes. The version number, "0.28.181.40d", should tell you at a glance that the game is still very much in alpha currently. Perhaps one day we'll see those training wheels in a final release version.
Right now, I would not recommend this game to my friends who brag about how exhausted they are after a 45-minute round of Halo or a 3-hour game of Starcraft. But my friends with whom I've played 48 sleepless hours straight of Hearts of Iron II or eight days of Space Empires IV stopping only for sleep, those are the guys who are enjoying Dwarf Fortress so much.
Toribash, however, I'm no good at. I've never properly "won" a game of Toribash against an opponent or against myself. But I do have great fun flailing about, breaking pieces off and throwing them around, or tearing off my own arm and beating the other guy with it. And when that happens, there really aren't any losers.
Dwarf Fortress, as it is currently, is not meant for casual gamers. Heck, it's not really meant for anybody except for testing purposes. The version number, "0.28.181.40d", should tell you at a glance that the game is still very much in alpha currently. Perhaps one day we'll see those training wheels in a final release version.
Right now, I would not recommend this game to my friends who brag about how exhausted they are after a 45-minute round of Halo or a 3-hour game of Starcraft. But my friends with whom I've played 48 sleepless hours straight of Hearts of Iron II or eight days of Space Empires IV stopping only for sleep, those are the guys who are enjoying Dwarf Fortress so much.
Toribash, however, I'm no good at. I've never properly "won" a game of Toribash against an opponent or against myself. But I do have great fun flailing about, breaking pieces off and throwing them around, or tearing off my own arm and beating the other guy with it. And when that happens, there really aren't any losers.
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