Since the very first Indie Nation, I've received several requests to highlight two different games: Toribash, a turn-based ragdoll fighter, and Dwarf Fortress, a dungeon keeper/crawler.
Several times over the course of the last year, I have attempted to play both of these games. I have attempted to pierce their confusing interfaces, to work out their complex rules, and to conquer their ridiculous learning curves.
I have failed. Over and over again, I have failed to play these games they way they are meant to be played, whether due to my own idiocy or their ridiculously impenetrable interfaces.
Still, I've heard so many good things about both games that I'd feel incomplete if I didn't, at the very least, mention them to you.
You can hit the jump for a further explanation of why these games are supposed to be good (and why I wouldn't personally know), or you can just download both of them and find out for yourself. I'll be holding my knees and sobbing loudly while you do so.
Toribash is supposed to be an awesomely complex turn-based fighter where you individually manipulate the joints and muscles of a ragdoll's body in order to make him attack. How complicated is it?
I needed a YouTube tutorial to show me how to throw a punch.
Yeah.
As for Dwarf Fortress, it's supposed to be some sort of incredibly addicting mix of Civilization, Dungeon Keeper, an RTS, and a roguelike that just happens to have the least friendly user interface in history. All the visuals are ASCII, all the commands are mapped to the keyboard -- in cosmetic terms, there's no reason the game couldn't be on an Apple IIe. Mechanically, though, I guess it's insanely complex and full of clever procedural generation and stuff.
I wouldn't know any of this personally, of course, because I'd need to read and study this gargantuan fucking wiki article to even get started with the game.
Here's the question, though: is it my fault for not wanting to put in the requisite time and effort to learn these games, or the game's fault for being so goddamn confusing and impenetrable?
Given how Portal, Braid, and World of Goo gradually taught me how to master their pretty-goddamn-confusing mechanics through steady learning and difficulty curves, not to mention some very friendly (yet seamless) in-game tutorials, I'm leaning toward the latter.
Contest:
3:40 PM on 01.23.2009
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Hell, a few friends and I could probably teach you through Skype, if you so wished.
Toribash, however; looks fucking insane.
Toribash for your first few solo tries is a complete and utter mess.
What really brought Toribash alive for me was watching and getting beat up in the multiplayer.
No question: The interface for Toribash as a stand alone thing is abbhorent. But Toribash's multiplayer (it really is the meat of the experience) assists in finding the appreciation and wonderment of the thing.
You can see everyone's "moves" in real time before the action activates, so it helps to understand what sort of moves are possible with what joint flexes.
Also, watching the demo replays included in the download is a real treat.
While I could get back into Dwarf Fortress after not playing it for a while, though, Toribash was pretty much impossible to start playing again.
Really? Huh, I'll have too look into that.
While Dwarf Fortress could possibly have an introductory tutorial, just the fact that the wiki has an entire entry just to the handling of cats leads me to think that said tutorial would be insanely long, and likely quite boring. You would still be stuck with your wiki problem - do you really want to endure a three hour tutorial in order to play the game?
That said, there are probably a number of things the developers for these games could do to try and lesson the initial learning curve.
There is a very long thread on a forum I go to regularly on Dwarf Fortress. It looks like such an amazing and entertaining game. I love reading about all the stupid crap that happens to people when playing it. I just don't get it tho. It's the interface, for sure. It's menu after menu after menu buried in menus. I keep trying it, and I always get lost.
The worst thing is that sitting through a match can take up GRAND amounts of time.
The best thing is getting to a point where you figureout how to jump, curl up, perform a flip and unleash a decapitating roundhouse kick on your opponent . . .
And there was that time I ripped a dude in half "with my bare hands" using the grab mechanic of the game . . .
Or the time I sword dueled and sliced my own legs off . . .
If you're at all interested in physics, martial arts, amputation, strategy or figure animation, its worth a try, imo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc&fmt=18
..22 of them posted as of 23Jan2009. I played along as he showed how things worked. Very well done, and extremely helpful.
It really is an amazing game... I suggest anyone interested take a look at the link.
1: An actual graphical tileset:
http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/df.htm
2: In-depth walkthrough of an fortress:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/01/08/losing-is-fun-learning-is-better-dwarf-fortress-tutorials/
If you'll take the time to learn Dwarf Fortress, you will find a game with an unmatched level of detail and depth. I just wish they'd work on user interface, it drastically needs an overhaul.
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28477.0
Toady's actually working on the Interface, but that update's coming MUCH later.
Is IS still in Alpha, afterall.
I kept trying though and eventually landed my first punch. The game has some potential, if only to have the ability to turn to a friend and tell them you can play this incredibly hard and complicated fight simulator.
A few of us are on it now, though.
I've never played Dwarf Fortress, and wasn't planning to, but this comment thread has changed my mind.
Dwarf Fortress is fucking insanely complex and one of the most amazingly detailed games I've ever seen. I seem to suck at it too. I don't want to spend hours reading through a wiki just trying to understand how to play the basics. But I gave it a try. I'll need to try it again sometime to see if I really like it.
http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/2008/09/03/i-wish-i-were-the-moon/
(You've probably already done one, I'm unsure.)
Dwarf Fortress on the other hand just takes getting used to.
"The interface is coming--it's not coming in your lifetime but it's coming." - Toady One (Dwarf Fortress developer)
DF is all about an evolving game world, if you character dies, no problem, start another one and hear insults about your previous character by the thing that killed him. Beat a man to death with his own arm. Steal a sword, fight a town guard, get the sword stuck in his chest and watch the entire town fight him as he's declared the thief. Or heck, just read the stories posted by other people, the fort of Boatmurdered is a famous one (it was a community game by the guys at SomethingAweful--I think they started out playing it to bash it, then got into it, then turned the fort into a hellhole).
One notable quote:
"Come on guys, we have a nice settlement, why didn't you stick around? Was it the ashen wasteland? The bloodstained gates? Was it the screams of madmen or the stench of death? We've got awful nice engravings of some fucking cheese here, come the fuck on in!"
http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-utter-newby-tutorial-for-dwarf-fortress-part-1-wtf/
and it'll get you up na dgoing.. it's insane...
Dwarf Fortress, as it is currently, is not meant for casual gamers. Heck, it's not really meant for anybody except for testing purposes. The version number, "0.28.181.40d", should tell you at a glance that the game is still very much in alpha currently. Perhaps one day we'll see those training wheels in a final release version.
Right now, I would not recommend this game to my friends who brag about how exhausted they are after a 45-minute round of Halo or a 3-hour game of Starcraft. But my friends with whom I've played 48 sleepless hours straight of Hearts of Iron II or eight days of Space Empires IV stopping only for sleep, those are the guys who are enjoying Dwarf Fortress so much.
Toribash, however, I'm no good at. I've never properly "won" a game of Toribash against an opponent or against myself. But I do have great fun flailing about, breaking pieces off and throwing them around, or tearing off my own arm and beating the other guy with it. And when that happens, there really aren't any losers.