When people accepted music, that was art, and people were resistant to scripted theater.
When people gathered in a theater to watch scripted plays, they called it art, then were resistant to film.
When people gathered in a movie theater to enjoy film, they were resistant to accept video games.
It's all arbitrary. But what isn't arbitrary is pretentious games begging to be called "art", just like you're saying above, Jim. It will just come naturally, devs: chill out!
Braid is a perfect example of when it works, the game can be considered meaningful and 'arty' (or just pretentious) but it is succesful at getting its message across because of its innovative and fun gameplay.
Braid is probably my favorite indie game, but I disagree with you that the meaning was convoluted and pretentious. I thought it was presented in a great way, and was as clear as it could be without blatantly hitting you over the head with it.
I have to wonder, sometimes, if fun is a necessity for a game. I guess maybe we need to broaden our definition of fun. I mean, if every movie were to be "fun" in the conventional sense, we'd just have a bunch of uninventive and shallow action and romance movies, which I think would ultimately detract from the quality. I think when we're looking for "fun" and "entertainment" we shouldn't necessarily look for instant gratification.
I'm pretty sure Interstellar Marines is the opposite end of the spectrum. Indie games that sacrifice all originality and artistic worth to be fun.
A piece of art is supposed to convey a message or feeling to the viewer. Creators of art put a message into their work intentionally, and they either fail or succeed at getting that message across to their audience.
If that message is "this game is a piece of shit", then your game, book, movie, song, etc isn't art. It is a piece of shit.
I'm a film school dropout, and I dropped out because of the other people there, who thinks being pretentious and obtuse means their work is "deep" or "arty", and I see this mentality creeping into games more and more, so thank you for this article.
I'm thinking this is happening for two reasons, 1: gaming is very much mainstream, everybody is playing games now, so indie developers think of themselves as an alternative to what's popular, so they go and make "art", or more likely 2: because coming up with a fun idea for a game is a hell of a lot harder than making something like The Path.
The thing is, you can do arty things with narrative and imagery while still being a good game. Take Flower, for instance. It isn't apparent until the last level of the game, but there's a small yet beautiful story told throughout the game, and seeing it end the way it did, in the choice the sixth flower made, to save the city from itself instead of wanting to escape it, and in turn making the other flowers' dreams come true, made me tear up a bit. You can get emotional reactions out of people with games, you just have to do it right.
I agree that some games are pretentious for the sake of it. Also agree with things being too open to interpretation. I'm cool with filling in the blanks Shadow of the Colossus style, but give us something to work with.
TBH though I think fun is a secondary factor with these types of games, it's all about the experience/atmosphere. Shadow of the Colossus is my single favourite game, not because it's the most fun (that honour goes to Rock Band/COD), but because the whole package is good.
Although I think this is where you draw the line between "games" and "interactive experiences"
@ndschroede23
For me, at least (and from the sound of it, Jim), a game doesn't necessarily have to be fun, per se. As long as it's interesting, I'm happy. Don't be incredibly boring and tedious and then write a 4-page essay that boils down to "lulz that's the point." Get your point across in a way that I'd be interested in hearing/experiencing, otherwise I'm not going to want to listen to you.
This pseudo cult intelectual treatment that some games ( and some pieces of other midia ) receives to be some kind of art or vanguard movement it's kind of lame.
Take a picture of a bird flying, make it black and white and put a subtitle saying: freedom. TA-DAM! art! ... to me it's just cliche and not even a good try to be or mean something else.
There's nothing wrong with being different and creating something unconventional.
Really, we all have our opinions of what we want a game to provide us, and games like "The Marriage" give us a free alternative. It's all down to taste. Words like "pretentious" and "fucking stupid" tend to dilute any actual conversations we can have on them. But in the end what you enjoy and what I enjoy are completely different things, and we both get different things out of them.
While I was playing Braid I took in all the bits of text that the game gave me but didn't really get anything out of it, but the game's puzzles were brilliant, and so after I finished it I was compelled to play it again. Lo and behold, after I finished it for the second time, something clicked in my brain and I managed to find some kind of meaning in the game.
That kind of thing happened because the gameplay was brilliant enough for me to come back to it. A lesson for indie developers.
x1251's idiocy strikes again.
I don't think Jim goes "out of his element". It's his post, and he can make it however the fuck he wants, you overbearing ass.
"ass, fail, miserably"- sounds a lot like your opinion posts.
There are plenty, and even more authors who don't go for an honest approach. And you know this. So, the fuck is the point of this?
And who's to say he won't learn from his mistakes, and make an even better, functional post without being an overbearing ass?
Just STFU, x1251. How you get laid, is completely beyond me.
Stick to posting on indie forums, because you're somewhat decent at that.
When you go out of your element, and try writing these types of comments- you fail miserably.
Just a note, I know Cogs and Obulis are just puzzle games, but they looked so damn pretty. Also, Lock's Quest needs a real ending.
Thanks for ignoring the entire basis of the article. I dedicate a whole paragraph to how games can be unique and still be fun. Now please do continue with your blatant, flagrant ignorance.
Jim and stupid-- no. not stupid article
in fact i support the idea, that idie gamers don't have to be something "something" just to look indie: i'm tired of games which try to "show how hollow life is", which look 8-bit just for the sake of it and which try to evoke "youcannotbeatus nintendohard" masochistic nostalgie in people.
Problem is, you picked wrong fucking examples.
The Path is, and bere was a GAME as a GAME. An interactive experience, as all the other Tall of Tales "games" are. If you played it because you thought it to be something else, well, tough luck. Blame the PR
Th Void is, in fact, not an indie game. Ica Pick Lodge might not be the biggest dev's in russian community, but they are not "indie". They make art games. Unfortunately they always suck with making gameplay actually fully 100% enjoyable, but that'sa downside from the fact, that they do something DIFFERENT. and really interesting, actually. unfortunatelly the Void had to be stripped down heavily before the western release leaving it without the whole point of "life" in the void and talking to "sisters". But even before that Pathologic was a better game (as a game). But hell, you won;'t like Pathologic as well, most likely, because english version was translated badly and lost a lot of the beauty.
Oh and braid sucks. it's beautiful, with wonderful music, but as a game it's just plain annoying. but hell, you may like smb, while i definitely don't
Not because it was bad, but because I got a trophy for not playing the game for 15 minuets.
DON'T DO THAT.
Who decides what is and isn't a "piece of shit?"
It's all opinion (arbitrary), and useless to argue about on the basis of what is and isn't "art". The entire subject is subjective. The problem is when you force feed people a definition, as a developer, and attempt to "legitimize" the medium, when it doesn't need to be.
Did you even try to get the point? Regardless of whether or not you agree with it.
I for one disagree because I feel like that's indie culture. It's how indie film is, indie music is, indie literature is, asking indie games to be any different is like asking Japanese games to be less Japanese.
Of course there can be indie games that are "less indie" but to say they shouldn't act as their culture is kind of ruins the point. Indie and independent are two different things. Independent are small in-house startups. That includes small bands, studios, etc. The term indie has become more the cultural byproduct of independent startups than simply referencing those startups.
I see your point Jim but, and at the expense of sounding pretentious, I think you're kind of missing the point. That's just indie culture. You don't have to like it just like I don't like most Japanese games. I don't think they should be more Western. It's just not my scene.
This is the exact reason I hate the majority of indie game/movie/music lovers, they're too concerned with making sure it's not on a major publisher/theater chain/label to be concerned if it's actually good, and too caught up in the notion that if it IS on something major, it's automatically shit. Indie gamers are less anal about this than film and music connoisseurs, but I still hate the mentality of it.
Indie games seem to forget the whole "game" part of the equation.
Art communicates concepts, or trys to give you a different perspective on well know subject. The Marriage does this, ergo, it is art. They are using interactivity as a piece of their "sculpture (if you will)," but interactivity alone doesn't make this piece of electronic media a game.
The problem seems to arise when people begin to talk about games as art. Art is art, people. Art can be whatever you want it to be. Games, however, have a very rigid set of rules in order for them to be called such. Can art challenge the commonly accepted perspective on what we, as gamers, expect from a game? Yes, just as "Marriage" can challenge our perspective of what the common perception of that blessed sacrament is . . . "Marriage" isn't a real fucking marriage, though. It also isn't a real game. Is it art? Yessir, so long as its creator establishes his intentions as the creation of art. If I piss in a jar and submerge an NES copy of Tetris, then hand it to you and ask you to shake it around a bit, I haven't made a fucking game. Interactive? Yes. Artsy? I suppose. But it isn't a game.
Not all games are art, and not all interactive art pieces realized through an electronic medium are games.
We need more games like The Path and Passage. There are far too many games out there based on the premesis that games need to be fun. They don't, and they very seldomly are anyways.
All games, just like all movies, don't need to be straight-in-your-face with their meanings and goals. There's where the beauty of peronal experiences and interpretations come in.
Basically, videogames don't always have to be fun. We don't complain that some movies aren't comedies or action movies; why should we then do it for games?

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