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also i have to agree with japan being better at solo experiences then western games ever will be.
i will not credit westerners for FPS's for having more multiplayer value because at its core Fps's are hard pressed to be much more then multiplayer experiences.
i will not credit westerners for FPS's for having more multiplayer value because at its core Fps's are hard pressed to be much more then multiplayer experiences.
I don't think I'm straying too far afield to bring up Metroid: Other M. That's a perfect example of taking one of the lamest cliches from the JRPG world and applying it nonsensically to a series where it doesn't belong. Japanese studios just have a hard time writing narratives that appeal to a Western audience. Other M is the perfect example of how Western and Japanese Studios differ in their approach to modernize classic franchises. (vs say... Retro Studios)
"Im significantly more out of the gaming loop then before but, aside from red dead whatever, what's another critically acclaimed western game? Not even being sarcastic. "
How about Starcraft 2? Civilization V (early reviews are all glowing)? Honestly, 90% of what I would list would be on a PC, since console games are teh lame. Outside of the PC, I guess like Red Dead Revolver, Mafia 2, Halo Reach, the Call of Duty games, Bioshock 2, Assassin's Creed games, Mass Effect 2 (I don't know how far I should go back here, but, arguably, DA:Origins), etc.
Honestly, like I said, I think there are a lot of good Japanese games. However, I do think they have a specific problem, which Sustenance pointed out: "Japanese studios just have a hard time writing narratives that appeal to a Western audience. "
This hasn't always been true. FF7 obviously appealed to western audiences. Before that, I'd argue that FF4, FF6, Chrono Trigger, Phantasy Star 2-4, and some other early classic really hit the narrative just right.
The problem is that, with increased freedom, has come more crap rather than more quality. The voice actors, the FMVs, the new musical capabilities, etc., have been used to effect whiny heroes, annoying child/child-like comic relief characters, melodrama of the highest order, and j-pop. Can anybody point to ONE hero in the FF franchise post-FF7 who is anything like Locke? I guess FF9's hero, but he's more like a bastardization of what Locke represented rather than a real emulation of that character.
I also think JRPG's are going too crazy trying to change everything. Sure, Demon's Souls and Half Minute Hero both picked up on new, great ways to structure an RPG, and I think they're the best Japan has to offer. However, western RPG's haven't really evolved through conscious revolution. The "state of the art," as indicated by Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher, and Fallout, is actually quite tame in terms of major changes. Mass Effect is a little more action oriented, although that's more true in ME 2 than ME 1. Other than that, most of these systems have obvious analogues in predecessors. Fallout 3 and NV are just evolutions of Elder Scrolls and a bit of the old Fallout games. Dragon Age is pretty much a modern Baldur's Gate. The Witcher adheres somewhat closely to Baldur's Gate, although with a far more singular combat system. Regardless, changes in basic mechanics are not something western RPG-makers have spent a lot of time messing with. Now, there are two reasons for this to be true: 1. You could argue that this represents an inherent strength in the Western RPG, which requires less change. Arguably, Demon's Souls succeeds because it takes on attributes traditionally associated with Western RPG's. However, I think that 2 is more likely: 2. Basic mechanics often need more evoluton than revolution. There's a reason the RPG combat system changed little between Dragon Quest's initial release and FF 10: it's a god damned good system. Square, however, seems intent on deconstructing and leaving that old system behind, for apparently no reason. FF 12 failed as much because the combat sucked (and boy did it suck, jesus, I felt like I was playing an MMORPG by myself) than because the story and presentation sucked (which was also awful).
How about Starcraft 2? Civilization V (early reviews are all glowing)? Honestly, 90% of what I would list would be on a PC, since console games are teh lame. Outside of the PC, I guess like Red Dead Revolver, Mafia 2, Halo Reach, the Call of Duty games, Bioshock 2, Assassin's Creed games, Mass Effect 2 (I don't know how far I should go back here, but, arguably, DA:Origins), etc.
Honestly, like I said, I think there are a lot of good Japanese games. However, I do think they have a specific problem, which Sustenance pointed out: "Japanese studios just have a hard time writing narratives that appeal to a Western audience. "
This hasn't always been true. FF7 obviously appealed to western audiences. Before that, I'd argue that FF4, FF6, Chrono Trigger, Phantasy Star 2-4, and some other early classic really hit the narrative just right.
The problem is that, with increased freedom, has come more crap rather than more quality. The voice actors, the FMVs, the new musical capabilities, etc., have been used to effect whiny heroes, annoying child/child-like comic relief characters, melodrama of the highest order, and j-pop. Can anybody point to ONE hero in the FF franchise post-FF7 who is anything like Locke? I guess FF9's hero, but he's more like a bastardization of what Locke represented rather than a real emulation of that character.
I also think JRPG's are going too crazy trying to change everything. Sure, Demon's Souls and Half Minute Hero both picked up on new, great ways to structure an RPG, and I think they're the best Japan has to offer. However, western RPG's haven't really evolved through conscious revolution. The "state of the art," as indicated by Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher, and Fallout, is actually quite tame in terms of major changes. Mass Effect is a little more action oriented, although that's more true in ME 2 than ME 1. Other than that, most of these systems have obvious analogues in predecessors. Fallout 3 and NV are just evolutions of Elder Scrolls and a bit of the old Fallout games. Dragon Age is pretty much a modern Baldur's Gate. The Witcher adheres somewhat closely to Baldur's Gate, although with a far more singular combat system. Regardless, changes in basic mechanics are not something western RPG-makers have spent a lot of time messing with. Now, there are two reasons for this to be true: 1. You could argue that this represents an inherent strength in the Western RPG, which requires less change. Arguably, Demon's Souls succeeds because it takes on attributes traditionally associated with Western RPG's. However, I think that 2 is more likely: 2. Basic mechanics often need more evoluton than revolution. There's a reason the RPG combat system changed little between Dragon Quest's initial release and FF 10: it's a god damned good system. Square, however, seems intent on deconstructing and leaving that old system behind, for apparently no reason. FF 12 failed as much because the combat sucked (and boy did it suck, jesus, I felt like I was playing an MMORPG by myself) than because the story and presentation sucked (which was also awful).
couldn't agree more. Looking at tgs was just depressing. i'll feel like taking the japanese industry out back and putting it down.
@killias2
well put. A big part of it is stories. However i think i have a explanation of why ff7 worked and new jrpg games dont. It is because we were younger then. I'm not saying all japanese/anime stories are childish, there are some really beautiful and mature stories out there. but the vast majority of it is, quite honestly, childish.
compare dmc and god of war. Yes god of war appeals to kids and teens as well, but it's certainly not childish. dmc is. Infact there are very very few game stories which i wouldn't describe as childish.
well put. A big part of it is stories. However i think i have a explanation of why ff7 worked and new jrpg games dont. It is because we were younger then. I'm not saying all japanese/anime stories are childish, there are some really beautiful and mature stories out there. but the vast majority of it is, quite honestly, childish.
compare dmc and god of war. Yes god of war appeals to kids and teens as well, but it's certainly not childish. dmc is. Infact there are very very few game stories which i wouldn't describe as childish.
"well put. A big part of it is stories. However i think i have a explanation of why ff7 worked and new jrpg games dont. It is because we were younger then. I'm not saying all japanese/anime stories are childish, there are some really beautiful and mature stories out there. but the vast majority of it is, quite honestly, childish.
compare dmc and god of war. Yes god of war appeals to kids and teens as well, but it's certainly not childish. dmc is. Infact there are very very few game stories which i wouldn't describe as childish."
I'm not sure that I differentiate GoW and DMC as much as you do, although I grant that GoW is better in terms of story. I don't think it's that we were kids, however. FF6 and FF Tactics are -much- less melodramatic, j-poppy, and ridiculous than FF10, 12 and 13. It's like night and day. Don't believe me? Watch any FMV of FFX. Just pick one. Then watch one from FF Tactics. Totally different.
I don't think all classic JRPG's were FF Tactics, but I think the format -necessitated- a little bit of minimalism in terms of presentation. In retrospect, that was a good thing...
compare dmc and god of war. Yes god of war appeals to kids and teens as well, but it's certainly not childish. dmc is. Infact there are very very few game stories which i wouldn't describe as childish."
I'm not sure that I differentiate GoW and DMC as much as you do, although I grant that GoW is better in terms of story. I don't think it's that we were kids, however. FF6 and FF Tactics are -much- less melodramatic, j-poppy, and ridiculous than FF10, 12 and 13. It's like night and day. Don't believe me? Watch any FMV of FFX. Just pick one. Then watch one from FF Tactics. Totally different.
I don't think all classic JRPG's were FF Tactics, but I think the format -necessitated- a little bit of minimalism in terms of presentation. In retrospect, that was a good thing...
I want to defend the Japanese market, but I'm finding that the country's games are appealing to me less and less, and this is someone who was once a big JRPG nut. Nearly every JRPG that comes out now just makes me feel slightly sick, and that's no way to be.
^
That.
^
That.
Nippon Ichi, Gust and Atlus are Japans hope.
They never sold out, they stick to their guns and they make great games because of that.
They never sold out, they stick to their guns and they make great games because of that.
And Atsushi Inaba hasn't made a good game since 2006.
Vanquish is looking good, but time will tell on that one.
Vanquish is looking good, but time will tell on that one.
Jim, I don't like your writing at all but You're spot on with the JRPG sentiment so you win this time
I think the problem with Japan is that they are sticking to genres that only sell in Japan such as linear RPGs and stat-based action games, and because there are so many of these games already in the market they try to make theirs stand out with extremely eccentric, laughably overblown character designs (Usually comprised of pretty boys and overly-sexual women/children) and stories that guarantee sales to hardcore fans and NEETS without (in most cases) creating solid, unique gameplay and "changing the wheel" so they're intended market doesn't get something they didn't expect.
If anything, they try to hammer in a single unique feature to their game to try and get a "leg up" on the competition, and it usually doesn't work because they're trying to add a new concept while trying to keep the basic game as generic and standard as possible to please fans. Japanese players are the problem, because they don't expect anything new and thus developers don't take risks because It'll sell either way.
Plus they try to appeal to tons of fetishes to grab other niche markets. Like shit, every fucking Japanese game with a female WILL have either pantyshots or cleavage. I mean I like the sex as much as the next billion guys but it makes Japanese game developers seem like a bunch of perverts, and by relation Japan in general.
I think the problem with Japan is that they are sticking to genres that only sell in Japan such as linear RPGs and stat-based action games, and because there are so many of these games already in the market they try to make theirs stand out with extremely eccentric, laughably overblown character designs (Usually comprised of pretty boys and overly-sexual women/children) and stories that guarantee sales to hardcore fans and NEETS without (in most cases) creating solid, unique gameplay and "changing the wheel" so they're intended market doesn't get something they didn't expect.
If anything, they try to hammer in a single unique feature to their game to try and get a "leg up" on the competition, and it usually doesn't work because they're trying to add a new concept while trying to keep the basic game as generic and standard as possible to please fans. Japanese players are the problem, because they don't expect anything new and thus developers don't take risks because It'll sell either way.
Plus they try to appeal to tons of fetishes to grab other niche markets. Like shit, every fucking Japanese game with a female WILL have either pantyshots or cleavage. I mean I like the sex as much as the next billion guys but it makes Japanese game developers seem like a bunch of perverts, and by relation Japan in general.
lol inafune is sooo gonna get backstabbed by a Katana one of these days...
I think their RPGs need to be a little more realistic or mature in themes, something more appealing to an older crowd, while still mixing some of that inappropriate fanservice and beautiful fantasy settings we've come to expect from their games.
I think their RPGs need to be a little more realistic or mature in themes, something more appealing to an older crowd, while still mixing some of that inappropriate fanservice and beautiful fantasy settings we've come to expect from their games.
Inafune is spot on, but as always, there will be those who disbelieve him, because some japanese games are so cool. I can agree, and have much love for japanese games, but there's no bandage that can cover their gapping wound of lost ground.
There's a difference between making games that appeal more to a wider audience, and quashing japanese culture from their games. Besides, people, not all traits of japanese culture are rosy and acceptable. How much japanese culture do you want to buy a game? I say we can still have the weird culture we enjoy, and games with wider appeal.
There are still good japanese games on the way, but not even these can hide the true problems of the japanese industry.
There's a difference between making games that appeal more to a wider audience, and quashing japanese culture from their games. Besides, people, not all traits of japanese culture are rosy and acceptable. How much japanese culture do you want to buy a game? I say we can still have the weird culture we enjoy, and games with wider appeal.
There are still good japanese games on the way, but not even these can hide the true problems of the japanese industry.
Well they ARE 5 years behind in most of their development targets... I mean they mostly develop handhelds and such these days. Which... considering where gaming has gone, I tend to appreciate. Since most Western games are total mindless autopilot trash these days, unfortunately.
JRPGs are bad because they try the same stuff over and over again, I bought Resonance Of Fate because it was different and although it can be seen as not that great it stills bests the FFXIII in my opinion.
One of the reasons Capcom don't give Ono the chance to do a new Darkstalkers game is probably the fact that the Darkstalkers games were much more popular in Japan than the US and that they're focusing more on the global audience.
I'd LOVE a new darkstalkers game, seriously, but I'm well aware that if it happens, will not sell well as Street Fighter, that's a fact.
Capcom choose to put Marvel VS Capcom 3 on the front line simply cause the Marvel side of this IP is well accepted in the western market and will help sales in a global scale (everyone loves Spiderman)
The DmC game with Ninja Theory is the same thing, western touch in a japanase IP to appeal to the western market, even if the core US gamers rejected Dante "western" touch )
=/
I'd LOVE a new darkstalkers game, seriously, but I'm well aware that if it happens, will not sell well as Street Fighter, that's a fact.
Capcom choose to put Marvel VS Capcom 3 on the front line simply cause the Marvel side of this IP is well accepted in the western market and will help sales in a global scale (everyone loves Spiderman)
The DmC game with Ninja Theory is the same thing, western touch in a japanase IP to appeal to the western market, even if the core US gamers rejected Dante "western" touch )
=/
I guess Geddy Lee is just so good you can slap his picture just about any where and somehow it works.
I remember reading an article a few years ago on Western innovation and how Japan was out of new ideas. I ended up disagreeing with the article because 1) it came off very smug and 2) just last generation, the tables were turned. How could it all go downhill so quickly? However, as the years go on, I now look upon my entire collection and remain shocked to see how right Inafune may be. Awful games? No. Years behind? Perhaps. Innovative is definitely important, but not always necessary to have fun. I think Japan is just in a slump. Just as the West was in the past. They will make a comeback. As of now, I look for hope in these future games: the Last Story, Dead Rising 2, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Vanquish, the Last Guardian, Project Dark, and maybe even Ni no Kuni (its Studio Ghibli!). :D
What the hell is wrong with Inafune? Seriously. Mega Man Universe does look pretty bad, he should only speak for himself.
"I want to study how Westerners live" Well the first lesson you should pick up on us Westerners is walking up to a booth and telling them that the product they worked so hard on is so bad it makes you physically ill is a good way to get a shot to the head.
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