Battle System Final Fantasy's battle system seems to be something no one can agree on. Some people prefer the Active Time Battle seen in the majority of titles. Some like the true turn based style as seen in
FFX. Some deranged souls even enjoy the free roaming battles featured in
FFXII.
I have mulled over what the best combination of these mechanics are and I truly believe that
FFVII: Crisis Core has gotten it the closest. I agree with the free roaming people that just standing there scrolling through menus is boring, but I still believe the battles should be random. There are definitely things I would change about
Crisis Core's battle system. As many agreed, it seemed to be just an "X" button mashing affair. Instead of having to press the X button for every swing a la
Kingdom Hearts, simply selecting an attack button from a menu and then the character getting to attack on a set time schedule reflecting their speed, a la
Star Ocean, would be way easier on our thumbs.
Of course,
Crisis Core only had one playable character, which would be unacceptable for a real
Final Fantasy game. So how would the extra two or three characters in your team be controlled? By an AI with basic options you could choose for each character, none of that Gambit bull. And the ability to switch between characters on the fly, borrowing from
Star Ocean again. Finally, the DMW crap would have to go. The limit breaks would be gained as they are in
Final Fantasy VII & IX, a meter that builds as you take damage. The summons would go back to being just really powerful materia, again like
FFVII & FFIX.
World map The World Map is sadly disappearing from games recently, as seen in
FFX/FFX-2 and
Lost Odyssey. This makes me sad because the world map has always been a staple of the RPG genre, and needs to stay.
FFXII still did it wrong even though you actually traveled around the world instead of picking a place from a list.
Final Fantasy needs an actual World Map that you can roam around as you go location to location, like every title from
I to
IX.
Character Customization The recent trend of
Final Fantasy's has been that you are given a cast of characters and that any of them can be anything they want. Want the main character to be a white mage and the damsel in distress to be a powerhouse? With the Sphere Grid and License Board, this was possible. This seems like a step forward in gameplay mechanics, but I think it hurt the game in terms of plot development.
In my opinion, the reason
FFIV &
VI were regarded as having the best stories in the series is that each character had their own specific role and that was part of their being. Take that away and part of their personalities are being forsaken as well.
Setting Screw the Ivalice Alliance. Screw it. What made the old
Final Fantasy games so great is that each one was a separate entity from the others. A new world and cast of characters to fall in love with. Personally I never became too attached to Ivalice. Gaia I favored more but I still think it would be in the series' best interest to not stick with a given setting. Honestly I believe the more focus is put on developing the setting; the less effort is put on the characters background and overall plot.
Amount of Games This is one thing about the
Final Fantasy series we can all agree on. There are way too many spin off
Final Fantasy games coming out nowadays. Some I enjoy, such as
Final Fantasy Tactics and
Crisis Core. Regardless, it would be for the best if there were only the regular numbered games. Square-Enix is a huge, powerful company, if they want to do another kind of game they can name it something besides
Final Fantasy and still have it be a smash hit. The
Final Fantasy games are so big that they don't deserve to have attention be divided between tens of spin offs. I want
FF13, and after that
FF14, and so on.
There you go, my dream
Final Fantasy. I'm sure some of you will disagree with me, and I'm certainly not the God of
Final Fantasy (I believe that position goes to Ms. Bennett), so I'm open to suggestions of what you could do better.
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A very very nice read :)
I would comment with something insightful, but it's 4:30 am and I know I would embarrass myself.
Good article, though I still prefer turn-based over active time :)
Good read, coonskin. I was planning to do one of these on Final Fantasy, and I'm glad there's a few points you didn't bring up I can touch on :)
Nice write up! I agree with most of it.
Ivalice is nice enough, but there certainly are a lot of games built on top of it.
And yes yes YES concerning character customization! I liked being locked into a character class. More freedom ended up meaning more unnecessary micro management, which was not fun.
But I think there is some merit in the way they're branching the franchise into different play styles. I'll go on again and say that FFCC:MLAAK is a pretty brilliant game and could really stand as the base build for a fleshed out and fresh excursion into the old worlds, or even a new one.
Nice artticle, even though i found Final Fantasy games as boring as hell can be.. Well that might be because i don't play any RPG except EarthBound and Golden Sun
I'd have to agree with you on pretty much every point you made. Ivalice is dumb. Final Fantasy was good, if not better, without a pre-defined canon/setting whatever, and it ought to stay that way. And World maps too. My favorite song from the Final Fantasy games is probably the world map theme from VI/VII (they're both so damn good).
I bet FF13 will be more like Crisis Core. A mix of turn based elements with characters moving on a battlefield with a traditional menu system.
I like all your points. I would handle the battle system a little differently, but the important thing is that its semi-real time (at least like X-2, the only good part of that game, or like the Grandia series) and the summons and limits are like they were in VII or VIII.
I'm not sure but I think the Sphere Grid was only used in FFX. In it, your characters were locked into a class, I thought. Lulu was always the Black Mage and her whole persona reflected it. Rikku was the thief and she also showed it.
Otherwise, nice read and I definitely agree on the "GTFO Ivalice Alliance" thing.
On the battles, I'm kind of a purist and would prefer turn-based battle, however, i know it's considered outdated so Active-Time Battle would definitely work best for me.
"so I would like to recommend Sony implement the following changes to the series"
Sony has no say as to how FF games are developed.
I have no idea what you're talking about Generic Guy. :)
Excellent stuff Coon. I definitely miss the good 'ol world map exploration.
I got up at 5 am to read this?!
Nice post. Actually agreed on about everything you said. FF10 had to be my last favorite FF. After that, the games seemed to be a joke.
FFX-2 had the best battle system to date, period. Hands down.
Gratz on the promotion! I dunno anything about FF so I'm gonna assume you're right :)
I completely disagree about the battle system and character customization.
FINAL FANTASY 5
Job class system, old school ATB. Thats what i want. Give me that now!
FFXII was terrible. So much of it was just forgettable repetition that I would have trouble running off a list of things I actually liked about it.
I'm not sure the series can be saved at this point. FFXIII is not a game I plan on buying. After all these years I think they finally lost me.
It seems that people who like Final Fantasy in general hate XII and the people who actually like video games love it...
Said in jest, my friend. I do completely disagree with you about XII in every category, and yes, I have played other FFs (1, 2, 3, 9, 10).
Eliminate the stupid mini-games like the cards in FFVIII and FFIX, or bliztball in FFX!! Boy, was that dumb. Sure, FFVII had the Gold Saucer, but the games were there for leisure and you didn't feel forced to play them.
"The fate of the world can wait, now draw your card!!"
Congrats on the front page Coon. You woulda thought a CRRRRRRAZAY texan like you would play FF.
There are very few turn based games I enjoy. I prefer something more along the lines of Mass Effect where combat doesn't mean everything grinds to a halt. In fact I am intrigued by the idea of a game like The Bourne Conspiracy with it's cinema like action sequence then adding some RPG elements to that...Then maybe add some free roaming like GTA...Woot!
I am disappointed in the lack of yall in this blog.
Can all the genders be distinct too? That'd be nice so I know I'm not fapping to a man. Damn, Tidus was hott.
Man, this makes me so sad. FF12 is amazing, the quality of everything was over the top. Sure it didnt have a world map, but in place it has a REAL world map. You walk outside, the town is behind you and you walk out into each zone...it's a more realistic world map. I know everyone will always have different opinions but.....I don't understand the hate.
FFXII is a great game, and I've played every single Final Fantasy to date, including Mystic Quest. I love the setting of Ivalice, but I think they should just stick to the Tactics series being set there, and give us another Tactics, not Tactics Advanced, which doesn't nearly compare. And what was described about the fighting system being changed can already be achieved in FFXII, you can practically play the game turn-based if you want to, the gambits are just there to make it less micro-managing, at least toward the end (I will admit it was slightly annoying until you got a majority of the possible gambits).
Also in FFX, everyone is pretty much locked in to their class by the sphere grid, except Kimahri who is the Blue Mage/Mime, my favorite character, and vastly underrated. I do think XII gave far too much freedom, because by endgame all of my characters could do everything, the only difference was how much I used them and what niche I wanted them to occupy. V & VI are def. my favorite as characters go, V because of the sick combinations you can make with job abilities and VI because all of the characters are different and while they're all capable of being powerful (I don't agree with the 'Worst FF Character' contests and all that, Relm and Strago can be as powerful as Sabin or Cyan) they're powerful in different ways, unlike FFXII.
All in all I think the essence of FF as a niche in RPGs is their tendency to try new/different things with pretty much each one, it keeps it fresh.
In closing, I know it's blasphemy as a fanboy-ish devotee to the series, but VII is my absolute least favorite, the graphics continually make me vomit all over myself, and it just really doesn't add much from VI as far as gameplay goes
I kinda disagree on the world map... When it comes down to it, the world maps are very plain and it's rather dull trip to get from point A to B... frankly, i like the idea of it going WAY more detailed and immersive as FFXII kinda did. The only problem with FFXII though was that the world felt like it was broken up into separate areas (which it was), and that made it loose that feeling of traveling across the world. What they needed to do was make the whole world as one piece, so that you were never conscious of exactly when you entered a new area since their is no "Zone" except for when entering cities, dungeons and so forth. Bascially something more like out of GTA, but with much more varied environment... also, FFXII lacked good airship travel (what... i like flying aroudn the world in circles)
I definatly agree on the customization issue though... though another reason i would throw in is the fact that having defined roles actually forces you to use most or all of your characters. Games like FFXII, FVIII and such are games that you could get through just fine by only picking three characters and sticking with them... very little reason to bother with the others except in a few cases like the last fight in FFVIII... Without the full customization, you have proper encouragement to use all the characters. Not to mention, personally, i'm very indecisive, and that becomes a problem when i'm being indecisive over a very trivial issues... like stuff as little significance as names can bug me... much less stuff like picking between certain skills (especially when i can't undo the action)
@braulio09
It was a little half and half... due to the lack of higher level sphere's that block your path, early on in the game you are pretty much forced into a single path... however, later in the game you get the sphere's needed to open other paths and thus can get customization of the characters... Kamari for instace was placed directly in the middle because he was meant to go on ANY path.
another "if you love it, change it" ...
It is all in the story. VI, VII, VIII.
I want like a turnbased/action mash kind of deal. It would probably operate a lot like Star Ocean except that you control everyone, but while one person moves the others are frozen unless you are within a certain range, but even then you only move when the other guy is moving too (a la Vandal Hearts 2). But I want to be able to execute battles that would be as visually pleasing as, say, Advent Children or Dragonball Z.
That probably sounds crappy but I've been tossing it around for awhile and it looks really really cool in my head.
Godlike read Mr. Coonskin.
+1 awesome-sauce to you.
I agree that Final Fantasy is losing its old fan base. I am 1000X more excited for the FFIV remake on the DS, then I am for XIII.
If you want to make a new awesome Final Fantasy, then use the power and graphics of a modern system and the play style of the can't be bested classics. (ie FF4-FF7)
I personally thought "Lost Odyssey" was a better sequel to the Final Fantasy series, then XII was!
great article, good read.
As I agree with some points mentioned, I do see the good part in SquareEnix doing bad, this gives opening to other RPG companies to do what they been sucking to do for years.
Hmmm, my favorite FF's are VI & XII, so I may a bit of an oddball. I love both of those battle systems. Apparently there was even more hate for XII than I thought, but I loved that game, the characters and all that ambiguous crap was annoying, but I felt like the battle system and huge interconnected world more than made up for it.
As for VI awesome story, awesome characters, awesome fun.
FFX's turn based system is more or less the exact same as doing an Active Time Battle, but the turn chart on the right just tells you who's bar would fill up in what order for the next few turns ahead.
One of its problems is that it keeps the time between different people's turns at a constant instead of a variable, which, given your character has enough speed, allowed you to abuse the quick attack command to attack for like 3+ times when you should only be attacking once.
Active Time Battle is much harder to find loopholes for, but also does very little to factor in what action you're taking compared with your overall delay before your gauge restarts.
Round-based battle systems (set battle round, every character guaranteed to make at least one action per round) make a characters speed ranking virtually useless, as a character hitting for 500 at the beginning of the round will never have the chance to use his/her speed to keep up with someone hitting for 700 at the end of the round. With no way for a character to "lap" another character in turns, the 'hard-hitting but slow' will always be better than 'fast but weak'.
Personally my favorite battle system is the ones in Grandia. A simple, compact bar/ring that keeps everyone's (including your enemies) information all in a small space, but is still easy to know what's going on. It's closely linked to ATB system, as each character has to cover a certain distance before they can perform an action, and the rate you go across that area is determined by your speed. They also make spells/abilities take different amounts of time, depending on your familiarity with them, and you can delay enemies from casting dangerous spells by attacking them during their charge up time. It just seems to me like it's the most constant system that keeps both balance of characters and a decent amount of strategy in battles.
World maps, honestly, I can live without. The efficiency of point and click beats out "exit city, board airship, check coordinates on map, go to next city" any day. I can't count the amount of times I've fought so much stuff on the world map while on the way to my next area that by the time I got there, I had to turn back and go to the city inn and heal myself up.
Character customization is nice, the job systems in FF5/X-2 were some of the best of the series. So you can make Penelo weild weapons that are bigger than she even is? She'll never be as good at it as Basch would be with the same liscences, and Basch will never be as good as Penelo at healing everyone. You try and make someone into something they weren't built for, and you're gimping yourself. As far as I know, a characters stats are based on their level, not what liscences they have. FFX's system, however, was just plain broken once you got to the end of the game. Having every character with 255 of every stat is ridiculous.
I haven't played any of the Ivalice-based games except for FFXII, which I hated, so I can't say much about that. My *personal* preference would be for them to drop the Final Fantasy titles for all of them, and make Ivalice a stand-alone series.
Some Final Fantasy spinoffs are good, some are just to make money with a cheap game. Tactics could have lived with being a non-FF game, but Crisis Core and X-2 are both directly based on other FF games, and both would need the title to work as a game at all.
I put in FFXII for the first time in about a year sometime last week, and remembered why I stopped...I cannot get past the Elder Wyrm in the Forest area, and I've grinded my characters for quite some time. Evidently, I have more grinding to do...i.e., get bored off my ass.
The battle system though was great in that title, but I would have preferred something a little simpler for my already "too much shit inside" brain.
Yes, yes, and yes. Beautiful points. As for as the battle system is concerned I'm all for a return to the old ways.
I really don't mind my characters standing in a line while timers tick down or turns pass by. It like it that...a lot. Hell, X is still my favorite battle systems with the old ATB's running right up behind it. XII is a dismal behind even last place.
I really have to admit, I have gone off the FF series, even though FFVII was the very reason I purchased a PS1.
The problem for me is Square Enix. I understand them wanting to strive from strength to strength, the trouble is we only see this much attention go to the FF series.
Square Enix games catalogue lacks variety, and this is something they are only now starting to realise (cue their comments this week).
Dear Square, Atlus are beating your ass. Persona 3 was superb and acclaimed. Trauma Center was new and original, with a great sequel on the way. Odin Sphere was cool (yes I know its made by Vanillaware). Persona 4 is on the way. Suddenly I care less about Square, until they diversify their games more.
What would I like to see? Square put FF series on ice for a two to three years, concentrate on their forgotten hits and build some new IP, some in different genre than rpgs.
So more Front Mission, Vagrant Story, Parasite Eve, Einhander. Even a new Live A Live game would be cool.
I want Front Mission Online ported to 360 and PS3, which would be a nice in a Chrome Hounds mold, even if it was an action game and not an rpg.
If Square want to hook up with outside talent, I'd say Ubisoft, Konami, Epic, Bethesda, Bioware or Take Two would be great, as these lot can create good action and rpg games.
Congrats on being front-paged.
I like your ideas, especially bringing back the world map. I'd like to add something though; they need to bring back secrets! Remember how many hidden things there were in the old FF games? That seems to have disappeared.
I've only played a very short bit of Star Ocean, so I can't really comment, but what about adding team-up attacks and spells like Chrono Trigger? You could have your specialized characters, and party management would come into play because if you didn't keep certain characters in your party, you couldn't use certain team-up attacks. Even so, those who don't participate in battle should still receive EXP so they are actually usable later down the line.
[b][big]DO WANT REAL SEQUEL TO FFT, NONE OF THIS FFTA BULL!!
ALSO WANT REMAKE OF FF6 (and 7 [and chrono trigger{and SoM}])!!!!![/b][/big]
Oddly enough I want 13 versus more than I want 13. Also I don't like my games random, like you were suggesting for the combat. I also want to be able to customize my characters' skills, not to mention I want the Items that I equip to actually change the look of my character.
I've actually always enjoyed Final Fantasy games for what they are... games. I play them to experience the story. The game mechanics, battle systems, character customizations, etc are kind of secondary for me.
One thing I miss is how learning magic/skills was in the early games. FFIV you learned based on level. I'm okay with learning with Espers, Materia, and Equipment because those choices aren't as permanent (at least to me) as the Sphere Grid, Dress Sphere, or Gambit Board. Espers and Materia.
When you learn the skills/magic from Espers, Magic, or Equipment you change to another of the above if you realize you need to learn a different skill you desperately need to beat the next boss.
I'm not with you on everything, but I hear what you're saying. Probably the biggest tug of war for me would be character customization. I loooooooved the sphere grid and license boards, but I totally get how you say the earlier games' characters had specific roles that not only strengthened the story, but needed to managed strategically.
Ultimately tho the different iterations and evolutions of the FF games is a big part of what keeps me coming back.
I don't mind remakes, only if I never played them on the original system and they are different in graphics only.
Good read for sure.
It took me a while but I did actually got to like the battle system in FFXII. However I turned speed to max, menu paused the action, and took those stupid targeting lines away. Essentially making it more like a active time system. It worked nicely. I could see them making more use of a battle system like that in some form, if not another FF. I really like active time battle system but at the same time I like to have more to do in the battle (i.e. Mario & Luigi Super star saga).
Pretty much agree on all other fronts fully, except I really like Ivalice, but that's because I LOVE the original Final Fantasy Tactics.
Never really gotten into Final Fantasy. Got about half way through FFVI then stopped.
I liked the battle system from X. Especially the way it would show how casting slow, or haste would change the turn order, maybe it added another level of strategy??
But I think you missed the one way FF could truly redeem itself. I think remakes of 1 and 2 need to come out badly for the 360 and the wii. I mean, whats with the hate Squeenix?? I'm pretty sure they have every other system covered.
AI controlled teammates was already done. It's called Persona 3.
Ditch the metrosexual blonde. I mean it. It throws me off when the people involved in the "lovers angle" both look like females and the "male" looks prettier than the female.
Also:
ffxii restored my faith in the series after ffx
i got to the last boss in ffx, and just realized i actually wanted all the characters to die. painfully.
so i deleted my save game.
I suck at BBCodes.
@vertice:
at least you felt that you wanted them to die. FFXII had bland characters (for me anyway). By the time I reached the final boss and handed him his ass and I was watching the ending, I was thinking: "That's it???"
ive been able to enjoy nearly every FF as far as characters, story, battle systems are concerned. but every game had something i didnt agree with. but, im very excited about where square will take us next.
Random battles, good? What?
This didn't feel so much like a "If you love it, change it", it felt more like "If you loved it, change it back". Every one of your ideas seemed like a step back for a series that is most notable (in my opinion) for its evolutionary changes. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly loved everything about FFXII's gameplay, especially the gambit system.
I don't know about you, but I always look forward to a new Final Fantasy because it's almost always a fresh experience, even with the direct sequels (for good or ill). Love FFXII I do, but I don't want the next Final Fantasy to be like it, much in the same way I don't want it to go back to being FFVI (except maybe in plot).
OMG! GIRL CLOUD!! SQUARE SUXORZ. LULZ.
Eh. Honestly, Syntax, I'm really trying to figure out why I should care about what you just spammed the comment board with. Tetsuya Nomura was the character designer for both FFVII and FFXIII, so his characters are naturally going to have similarities. Who's the bigger dork: The guy who says that Cloud and the chick from FFXIII aren't the same, or the guy who melds the images together to prove the other dork wrong?
Exactly.
Anyhow, I gotta say, I do terribly miss world maps. A lot. In FFVI, I'd level up my party on Brachiosaurs and Tyrannosaurs for a few days, and then blast around the world map smacking punk-ass bitch monsters who could only weep in terror as Cyan dropped an 8-chop Offering/Genji Glove combo on their poser asses. Good times, neighbors. Good times.
And another thing coonskin brought up that was spot on was character classes. I'm definitely a supporter of the white mage who has to hang out in the back row and cast curaga all day. I don't want to take anything away from folks who choose to have their mage also wield the biggest sword in the game with gusto -- it has its place in certain games, certainly -- but I guess I come from the school where Sabin tanks for Relm, not Penelo for Basch.
Nice write-up all said, coonskin. I wasn't with you on everything, but I definitely appreciate the thought you put into your article as a Final Fantasy fan.
Sorry, my bad... I didn't know the picture would look like that under here. Anyway, I found that pic from my "digging".
Mostly good points. "If you love, change it back" should probably be the title though. One thing I disagree with is suggesting AI controlled characters. While that's good for some, the option must be there to take control when they're needed and are about to do something retarded. FFXII despite all of its faults had the only AI (gambits) that I ever liked. Basically because I wrote the AI code myself and knew exactly what everyone was going to do and also had the option of interrupting them to change if need be.
One point you missed that others have already mentitoned is the generic she-male-man-boy character. The last main character that had a personality was Zidane.
I agree with you on a lot of points.
Final Fantasy's used to be known for being unique to each other and having fresh new places and characters and stories to dive into each time. Now we get half baked sequels and rehashes dropped into our laps.
I think we all agree VI had the most intriguing characters and the best mix up of gameplay and story. I think tactics is a very close second. Followed by VII.
I felt that XII was abysmal. I couldn't get very far into the game because every aspect of it was horrible. The characters and enviornments looked horrible. It had a very uninteresting and un-engaging plot, and the battle system was HORRRRRRIBLE.
Also Mission based gameplay in an RPG is the worst idea ever. Whoever though it up needs to die. It breaks the flow of the plot and makes me want to murder awful game designers.
Also for the love of god, put out a proper tactics sequel. None of this cutesy GBA crap with moogles and banga and judges and stupid crap like that. I want another political intrigue story please.
@syntaxerror
Just as a point-of-clarification, I wasn't lambasting you. I figured you just found that tidbit somewhere and wanted to share it. I just found it almost painful that whoever put that image together would use the words 'delusional fanboy' and 'retarded argument' whilst he or she took the time to construct the example that would prove some dorky point.
Ah well. Whether it's just Cloud with pink hair or not, it won't stop me from picking up FFXIII. No, not owning a PS3 will do that just fine on its own.
Interesting.....Good job.