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Does anyone really care about iD anymore though? Just seems like a lazy tech demo of a game for an engine that will be obsolete in a couple of years since it was aimed at this generation of consoles.
Good of him to be honest though, guess I'll stop buying their products full stop.
Good of him to be honest though, guess I'll stop buying their products full stop.
Lolz that Jim thinks he knows more than Jon Carmack.
Unfortunately for everyone, formerly PC only developers see that there are quite a few pennies to be made on these purportedly stone age pieces of technology. You CANNOT have the utmost level of detail on consoles no matter how hard you try and to develop something for everyone there needs to be sacrifices.
In this day and age, its a simple thing to say if you did this you would get more if that. The reality of the situation is these AAA games are PRODUCTS. Limiting them to one platform only shrinks the value on the return of the initial investment.
So yeah.
Unfortunately for everyone, formerly PC only developers see that there are quite a few pennies to be made on these purportedly stone age pieces of technology. You CANNOT have the utmost level of detail on consoles no matter how hard you try and to develop something for everyone there needs to be sacrifices.
In this day and age, its a simple thing to say if you did this you would get more if that. The reality of the situation is these AAA games are PRODUCTS. Limiting them to one platform only shrinks the value on the return of the initial investment.
So yeah.
Why release on the PC in the first place then? I say either do it right or don't do it at all.
It just seems like to me the better graphics and technology get in gaming, the worse the industry gets. It disheartening to say the least.
It just seems like to me the better graphics and technology get in gaming, the worse the industry gets. It disheartening to say the least.
As bitter as that makes me feel, I can see his point. There's sadly more profit on one side of the market. That doesn't excuse the completely sloppy job they did, though.
Carmack ignores the real problem. He acts like the problem is that the game looks mediocre on PC when the problem is that it is a glitchy mess. That you design around the console doesn't has to mean that the PC-port is crappy. So saying that the console versions will sell better than the PC-version is pretty cynic.
''"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games. That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version.''
Oh you have no idea what the fuck you have just started.
Oh don't worry, they'll come crawling back to the PC in the next few years and they'll be saying ''hey guys hehe we always loved you come buy our new product huehue!''
Commence PR disaster fallout.
Oh you have no idea what the fuck you have just started.
Oh don't worry, they'll come crawling back to the PC in the next few years and they'll be saying ''hey guys hehe we always loved you come buy our new product huehue!''
Commence PR disaster fallout.
All you PC lovers here can you tell me when PC game actually outsold it's console brethren? Check out VGCHARTZ and compare before you start making moot points. That's goes for Fatty J too.
I don't see the part where he says " I don't care" I thought his statements clearly pointed out that he was pissed the launch was a mess, which shows to me it does care.
Jesus Jim. I have respect for Destructoid, please don't make it into a stupid tabloid "look at the crazy title of my article" blog.
I am a PC gamer, I have rage on PC. I also understand the business end of things. More money is made with Consoles. Get over it. Rage is still a great game that had some issues with third party drivers. Get over it.
Jesus Jim. I have respect for Destructoid, please don't make it into a stupid tabloid "look at the crazy title of my article" blog.
I am a PC gamer, I have rage on PC. I also understand the business end of things. More money is made with Consoles. Get over it. Rage is still a great game that had some issues with third party drivers. Get over it.
He's got a point though... I mean id are giving us these games for free so we can't really grumble if there's problems with them. Oh, wait...
The game looks like a glitchy mess on PC because it is not nearly as tightly controlled hardware/driver wise as consoles. Theres only one 360 driver and one PS3 driver to go from. On PC theres not just two different (NVIDIA/ATI) sets but then theres subsets of hardware that dont use current generation techniques simply because those video cards do not support it. So theres a gratuitous amount of hardware fragmentation. Couple that with the "dream" of actual coordinated driver releases with top titles, especially one that relies heavily on the capabilities of the GPU, and you're headed right for a cluster fuck from the get go.
PC versions of console games SHOULD get greater treatment due to the advanced hardware found in them, but it is obviously not a directly correlation to higher profits. This is what id is looking for. This is what all PC + Console developers are looking for because taking on another platform has the potential to be more than twice the headache of direct to console or direct to pc project.
I'm calling it right here. The next "amazing" PC project will more than likely come from the indie space from a developer who has made money on steam and actually CARES about the PC as a platform and not another set of dollar signs.
PC versions of console games SHOULD get greater treatment due to the advanced hardware found in them, but it is obviously not a directly correlation to higher profits. This is what id is looking for. This is what all PC + Console developers are looking for because taking on another platform has the potential to be more than twice the headache of direct to console or direct to pc project.
I'm calling it right here. The next "amazing" PC project will more than likely come from the indie space from a developer who has made money on steam and actually CARES about the PC as a platform and not another set of dollar signs.
He's right. PC Gaming is a dying breed.
It's only popular for old,fat,lazy,basement dwellers,and Facebooking Grandma's.
No reason to waste time developing for it.
"Runs Away"
"Comes Back"
So what do you guys think of the AMD A8 APU with a HD 6850 card combo for budget PC gaming? ;D
It's only popular for old,fat,lazy,basement dwellers,and Facebooking Grandma's.
No reason to waste time developing for it.
"Runs Away"
"Comes Back"
So what do you guys think of the AMD A8 APU with a HD 6850 card combo for budget PC gaming? ;D
Jim, nothing you quoted implies id doesn't care about PC gaming.
All this post says is that, for RAGE, they targeted consoles primarily.
John has said already that they regret this decision.
All this post says is that, for RAGE, they targeted consoles primarily.
John has said already that they regret this decision.
The title of, and illogical leaps made in the article are not an honest representation of Carmack's words. This is trolling.
The intent here is not to inform or enlighten, rather to enrage, pun unintended.
The intent here is not to inform or enlighten, rather to enrage, pun unintended.
The best bit of this entire fiasco?
Steam's Rage Description
"Powered by id's revolutionary id Tech5 technology, RAGE is an intense first-person shooter with breakneck vehicle combat, an expansive world to explore, and jaw-dropping graphics!"
Steam's Rage Description
"Powered by id's revolutionary id Tech5 technology, RAGE is an intense first-person shooter with breakneck vehicle combat, an expansive world to explore, and jaw-dropping graphics!"
@eric: the problem is it costs an asston to make high end pc games...and it's not like you can go to your nearest mall and Pick up a gaming pc thatll play battlefield for $200 like you can for consoles. I agree with your statement that the next big pc project will be indie. Shame about Id, I was hoping to build my next rig around doom 4
@Czech Monster Lots of indie games, actually. Cthulhu Saves The World was the prime example. But AAA games? None that I can remember (And I am a PC lover) This is a sad day.
What I read was: "We could have made an incredible looking PC game and developed a shitty looking console port, or we could have made an incredible looking console game that ALSO has an incredible looking PC version. We chose the latter."
I'm sorry, whats wrong with anything he said? He's right. The game was always going to sell more on consoles. Unfortunately, Rage has issues with some PC setups. You DO realize this will be fixed right?
P.S. That header is absolutely ridiculous.
I'm sorry, whats wrong with anything he said? He's right. The game was always going to sell more on consoles. Unfortunately, Rage has issues with some PC setups. You DO realize this will be fixed right?
P.S. That header is absolutely ridiculous.
I feel like a large portion of this site is turning into the Fox News of gaming journalism. I think a big part of it is Jim, but it seems there isn't a day that goes by that someone uses a sensational emotionally driven header, only to find that the actual interviews are nowhere near the tone the header sets.
I used to come here to get videogame news. Now I come here to read a venomous rant from Jim without credibility and then click the link to the actual story. Shit, there are more substantial links in the comments of the articles than there are in the article itself. Most in-article links are to previous articles.
I used to come here to get videogame news. Now I come here to read a venomous rant from Jim without credibility and then click the link to the actual story. Shit, there are more substantial links in the comments of the articles than there are in the article itself. Most in-article links are to previous articles.
Ya'll are entirely right. I worded my headline a bit too strong, as I sometimes do when I get in a huff. I hope you accept the new one. <3
Consoles having a larger marketshare should in no way be an excuse to release an inferior product to your old fanbase on the pc...
Do it right or don't do it at all...people still paid money for the product and had faith that it was gonna work when they purchased it...I didn't buy it myself cause its a crowded season but are people really making excuses for this kind of stuff?
Console users can trade their games in...for now but when you buy it on pc and entered that serialkey thats it your stuck with it...Alot of people bought this because they believed in ID software's capability to make a game that runs good. Saying after release that secretely you arent as devoted to pc gaming anymore is deceiving and like a stab in the back to the ones who believed they were getting a decent product...
Im not a victim of this one but I will let my voice be heard that this is not acceptable and I doubt Im gonna buy Rage now... Not one platform should be an afterthought no matter how big the targetaudience is on other platforms...As long as they intent to ask money for their games they are also responsible for the state in wich they release their games...
Not cool and Doom 4 just went from a natural must buy game to a hell no!!!
Do it right or don't do it at all...people still paid money for the product and had faith that it was gonna work when they purchased it...I didn't buy it myself cause its a crowded season but are people really making excuses for this kind of stuff?
Console users can trade their games in...for now but when you buy it on pc and entered that serialkey thats it your stuck with it...Alot of people bought this because they believed in ID software's capability to make a game that runs good. Saying after release that secretely you arent as devoted to pc gaming anymore is deceiving and like a stab in the back to the ones who believed they were getting a decent product...
Im not a victim of this one but I will let my voice be heard that this is not acceptable and I doubt Im gonna buy Rage now... Not one platform should be an afterthought no matter how big the targetaudience is on other platforms...As long as they intent to ask money for their games they are also responsible for the state in wich they release their games...
Not cool and Doom 4 just went from a natural must buy game to a hell no!!!
I don't think PC Gamers wanting their game to work is asking for special treatment or anything.
That should be a given. When a game is so broken that it can be classed as unplayable, be it for the 360, PS3, Wii, DS, NES, PC and so on, gamers who paid for it have every right to complain. This should not be an issue. Ever.
Not to mention the removal of settings that have been common place on the platform since its birth basically. And it's not like it's a huge thing to include. It's all there hidden in the background but ID decided that they knew better than the PC gamer who built their machine.
And the fact that V-Synch wasn't an option at least is crazy in this day and age.
Again, it's all their but hidden, it wasn't going to cost ID anything to include. And now they have to try and patch it in.
"bit surprised at the intensity of the reaction"
You have got to be kidding me. How on earth could they be "surprised" by that?
I don't care about it being made with consoles in mind. Not in the slightest. I own consoles afterall. I can't wait for Uncharted 3 and Skyward Sword.
All, all I and most ask for is that the game should be playable and have no game breaking bugs on whatever platform we buy it on. That's not asking for special treatment, that's asking to be treated equally.
That should be a given. When a game is so broken that it can be classed as unplayable, be it for the 360, PS3, Wii, DS, NES, PC and so on, gamers who paid for it have every right to complain. This should not be an issue. Ever.
Not to mention the removal of settings that have been common place on the platform since its birth basically. And it's not like it's a huge thing to include. It's all there hidden in the background but ID decided that they knew better than the PC gamer who built their machine.
And the fact that V-Synch wasn't an option at least is crazy in this day and age.
Again, it's all their but hidden, it wasn't going to cost ID anything to include. And now they have to try and patch it in.
"bit surprised at the intensity of the reaction"
You have got to be kidding me. How on earth could they be "surprised" by that?
I don't care about it being made with consoles in mind. Not in the slightest. I own consoles afterall. I can't wait for Uncharted 3 and Skyward Sword.
All, all I and most ask for is that the game should be playable and have no game breaking bugs on whatever platform we buy it on. That's not asking for special treatment, that's asking to be treated equally.
Oh, Jim. I think I love you all over again. If Kotaku did this, maybe someone wouldn't have gotten away with spoiling the entire first act of Batman: Arkham City.
What's this Jim? No snarky comment about PC gaming being pointless? No insulting remarks about iD? Is the unnecessary whining finally ceasing?
Anyway, whatever. I've had very little interest in Rage and the video footage and reviews have all confirmed my disinterest.
Anyway, whatever. I've had very little interest in Rage and the video footage and reviews have all confirmed my disinterest.
John Carmack said a couple of months ago "I’m making a large change in my direction, just saying ‘We should be focusing on building things efficiently on the PC and [then] deploying on to consoles."
Make up your mind John.
Make up your mind John.
"I don't think PC Gamers wanting their game to work is asking for special treatment or anything."
This right here.
Some of these comments seem to imply that it's unreasonable to want a game that works properly, or that it's okay to have a game riddled with problems if those problems will be fixed later. It's really not acceptable, especially when a game costs $59.99 in a market so used to paying $49.99. For sixty dollars, I want something that works as advertised. That's not an unreasonable demand.
id Software doesn't have to cater to the PC market, absolutely not. However, it shouldn't be selling products that it hasn't put the right amount of care into. Hell, I'm actually cool with PC versions of games being delayed (as many have been) if it's been done to ensure the PC version works when it comes out. I am simply against a company charging full price for something it didn't put the full amount of effort into, and I don't think that's an unfair stance in the least.
This right here.
Some of these comments seem to imply that it's unreasonable to want a game that works properly, or that it's okay to have a game riddled with problems if those problems will be fixed later. It's really not acceptable, especially when a game costs $59.99 in a market so used to paying $49.99. For sixty dollars, I want something that works as advertised. That's not an unreasonable demand.
id Software doesn't have to cater to the PC market, absolutely not. However, it shouldn't be selling products that it hasn't put the right amount of care into. Hell, I'm actually cool with PC versions of games being delayed (as many have been) if it's been done to ensure the PC version works when it comes out. I am simply against a company charging full price for something it didn't put the full amount of effort into, and I don't think that's an unfair stance in the least.
When developers feel this way about PC gaming, is it worth it to invest in a gaming rig anymore? Consoles are where the money is at and few, if any, developers are choosing the PC as the lead platform. For all the money you invest into a quality gaming PC you will only see a marginal difference bewteen the PC version and it's console counterpart. It's a sad day for PC gaming. We have to put up with uneccesary delays (Batman Arkham City and Driver) and also crappy ports like what we've had with Rage. Even Crytek is getting out of the PC only business. At times like this I look at my PC and ask, "Was it worth it?"
Alright, let's discuss.
I'm really beginning to grow tired of the articles that you put up Jim, more specifically the titles you choose. I respect and love Destructoid, but your practices of misleading headlines and sometimes nasty articles is a very frustrating part of my day. You're a good writer, no doubt, but you have very aggravating practices that I feel should be discussed. But let's talk about this article specifically.
You write the headline as: "id Software doesn't really care about PC Gaming anymore".
Deciphering time. Where in the article does John Carmack, or any employee representative of iD software for that matter, say that they don't care about PC gaming anymore?
Sure, PC development has taken a rather backseat spot to console development, but that does not imply apathy towards another platform, the PC in this regard specifically.
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games. That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version." - carmack
In fact, even though John continues to respond with comments favoring the console development due to its larger audience, he makes an effort to point out how great the PC platform can be, when done correctly. He's right though. They put more backing into console dev time because it has a larger audience. Battlefield 3 will likely sell higher on consoles than PC's because the audience is significantly larger, even if BF3 on PC is awesome.
This sounds like YOUR opinion Jim. You don't think iD cares about PC gaming, from what I read. Your article is not a work of fact, but one of a misleading argument. If iD didn't care, why would they release on PC? If they didn't care, why would they work to get drivers out the door within days of the PC build launching? If they didn't care, they wouldn't have something like QuakeCon every single year.
Maybe Destructoid would get more market share if its Editor thought about what he wrote instead of releasing shitty, poorly thought out articles. Just a thought.
I'm really beginning to grow tired of the articles that you put up Jim, more specifically the titles you choose. I respect and love Destructoid, but your practices of misleading headlines and sometimes nasty articles is a very frustrating part of my day. You're a good writer, no doubt, but you have very aggravating practices that I feel should be discussed. But let's talk about this article specifically.
You write the headline as: "id Software doesn't really care about PC Gaming anymore".
Deciphering time. Where in the article does John Carmack, or any employee representative of iD software for that matter, say that they don't care about PC gaming anymore?
Sure, PC development has taken a rather backseat spot to console development, but that does not imply apathy towards another platform, the PC in this regard specifically.
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games. That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version." - carmack
In fact, even though John continues to respond with comments favoring the console development due to its larger audience, he makes an effort to point out how great the PC platform can be, when done correctly. He's right though. They put more backing into console dev time because it has a larger audience. Battlefield 3 will likely sell higher on consoles than PC's because the audience is significantly larger, even if BF3 on PC is awesome.
This sounds like YOUR opinion Jim. You don't think iD cares about PC gaming, from what I read. Your article is not a work of fact, but one of a misleading argument. If iD didn't care, why would they release on PC? If they didn't care, why would they work to get drivers out the door within days of the PC build launching? If they didn't care, they wouldn't have something like QuakeCon every single year.
Maybe Destructoid would get more market share if its Editor thought about what he wrote instead of releasing shitty, poorly thought out articles. Just a thought.
Where did he say fuck PC gamers? I'm pretty sure he basically said that they have to ship a basically complete product on console and on PC they can fix problems with drivers later. Read fail by everyone. It's pretty sad how quick some would claim to drop iD considering FPS as we know it wouldn't likely exist without them.
Where did he say fuck PC gamers? I'm pretty sure he basically said that they have to ship a basically complete product on console and on PC they can fix problems with drivers later. Read fail by everyone. It's pretty sad how quick some would claim to drop iD considering FPS as we know it wouldn't likely exist without them.
Don't worry Jim see some people live in a fantasy dreamland where the developer is always right. I love how companies can say the game worked in house when both the consoles an pc have texture tearing and pop in problems. I smell bullshit here.
Carmack is right. With PC's you have to do all sorts of hardware tests to make sure your game is optimized/compatible with different setups. This costs a lot of development time and money. With a console, you have ONE set of hardware, period.
If game makers actually cut PC entirely, they would be able to make a better quality product overall. There would be zero dev time allocated to testing their game across multiple hardware setups which could be re-allocated to optimizing the game even further on console hardware.
Don't get me wrong, I used to consider myself a big-time PC gamer, but times have changed folks. When I buy a game I don't want to have to jump through any fucking hoops to play. I don't want to sit through a long install process. I don't want to have to update drivers. I don't want to have to adjust any settings and change the default keyboard controls. I just want to put it in the tray and go. Luckily for me, game designers now sympathize with this viewpoint completely.
PC gaming isn't dying by any means, but it's no longer the smart choice for lead platform. The PC elite need to accept that and move on.
If game makers actually cut PC entirely, they would be able to make a better quality product overall. There would be zero dev time allocated to testing their game across multiple hardware setups which could be re-allocated to optimizing the game even further on console hardware.
Don't get me wrong, I used to consider myself a big-time PC gamer, but times have changed folks. When I buy a game I don't want to have to jump through any fucking hoops to play. I don't want to sit through a long install process. I don't want to have to update drivers. I don't want to have to adjust any settings and change the default keyboard controls. I just want to put it in the tray and go. Luckily for me, game designers now sympathize with this viewpoint completely.
PC gaming isn't dying by any means, but it's no longer the smart choice for lead platform. The PC elite need to accept that and move on.
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Thunder+Monti/gaming-on-the-pc-is-dumber-than-the-traders-hair-yo-213253.phtml#comments
A few thoughts:
1. PC gaming, even ignoring social network gaming, causal website gaming, and MMORPGs, is still a gigantic market. Retail and downloadable PC games are roughly half the market of console gaming. Keep in mind, this is ALL of console gaming: Wii, PS3, 360, and even all of the handhelds (PSP, DS, 3DS) and classic consoles still around (GC, PS2, Xbox) put together.
2. PC gaming was never the leading platform, even during id's classic days. If anything, PC gaming is doing better relative to consoles now than it was doing back then.
3. There are plenty of developers/publishers who are still willing to take the platform seriously. Blizzard is, obviously, the best example. CD Project. Paradox (not only are they pumping out the Grand Strategy titles, but also stuff like Cartel, the classic Syndicate clone, Master of the Arcane, the Master of Magic clone, Mount and Blade, Lead and Gold, King Arthur, Sword of the Stars, etc.). Stardock (Elemental sucked, but they're still a great developer. I have a feeling Fallen Enchantress will be much improved). Larian (Divinity) is still making great games, and I look forward to their new Dragon Commander game. Valve is, obviously, still make top tier games.
Even companies which used to skip PC are taking it more seriously. Capcom, for example, almost never used to release anything to PC. Although their PC track record is still messy, they have been releasing PC games with greater frequency and greater care as time goes on. My release of Dead Rising 2 was great.
So, whatever. I love my PC for gaming, and, according to the mass market statistics, so do lots and lots of other people.
1. PC gaming, even ignoring social network gaming, causal website gaming, and MMORPGs, is still a gigantic market. Retail and downloadable PC games are roughly half the market of console gaming. Keep in mind, this is ALL of console gaming: Wii, PS3, 360, and even all of the handhelds (PSP, DS, 3DS) and classic consoles still around (GC, PS2, Xbox) put together.
2. PC gaming was never the leading platform, even during id's classic days. If anything, PC gaming is doing better relative to consoles now than it was doing back then.
3. There are plenty of developers/publishers who are still willing to take the platform seriously. Blizzard is, obviously, the best example. CD Project. Paradox (not only are they pumping out the Grand Strategy titles, but also stuff like Cartel, the classic Syndicate clone, Master of the Arcane, the Master of Magic clone, Mount and Blade, Lead and Gold, King Arthur, Sword of the Stars, etc.). Stardock (Elemental sucked, but they're still a great developer. I have a feeling Fallen Enchantress will be much improved). Larian (Divinity) is still making great games, and I look forward to their new Dragon Commander game. Valve is, obviously, still make top tier games.
Even companies which used to skip PC are taking it more seriously. Capcom, for example, almost never used to release anything to PC. Although their PC track record is still messy, they have been releasing PC games with greater frequency and greater care as time goes on. My release of Dead Rising 2 was great.
So, whatever. I love my PC for gaming, and, according to the mass market statistics, so do lots and lots of other people.
@Landon Robinson
That's just the way Jim writes. When I first started coming to this site in '09, it was the same way. You're going to have to learn to just ignore him or not let his antics bother you, because he's probably not going to change. You're not pointing out anything that other people haven't criticiized him about or argued with him over for years. It's not worth it. Just trying to help!
That's just the way Jim writes. When I first started coming to this site in '09, it was the same way. You're going to have to learn to just ignore him or not let his antics bother you, because he's probably not going to change. You're not pointing out anything that other people haven't criticiized him about or argued with him over for years. It's not worth it. Just trying to help!
The difficult balance between optimizing for console vs optimizing for PC is nothing new. I don't see why people are getting into a big huff about it. Who here remembers how badly optimized Gears of War 1 PC version was? What about GTA4 PC? What about Quake Wars Enemy Territory on the consoles? Or how about Team Fortress 2 on the consoles?
Rage went for the consoles. Don't get so butthurt over it.
Rage went for the consoles. Don't get so butthurt over it.
Perhaps I'm reading to deeply into this, but I think Sterling's issue isn't with Carmack's assertions, but what those assertions were in response to. Carmack's statements suggest a lack of business acumen. When you release a product, and that product, perhaps through no fault of your own, has visible defects your best bet is to apologize to your customers and promise appropriate redress (well, if you wish to keep those customers). Becoming defensive, and shifting blame (however warranted) is a sure way to lose those customers. Blame the failing PC game industry when you decide not to provide a PC port, not after you've shipped a faulty product.
Well put Jim. In this day and age there is no excuse for a Lazy,broken port on any gaming system.
If you are going to release a game make sure it works first.
If it doesn't delay it until it does.
Rage on PC(Vs consoles),and Bayonetta on PS3(Vs 360)are perfect examples of this.
Both games should be the better versions on both systems,due to superior hardware,yet they aren't.
Why? because the Dev's were too lazy to spend the time on them,or consult others with more experience with the hardware.
Instead they chose to take our money and run.
If you are going to release a game make sure it works first.
If it doesn't delay it until it does.
Rage on PC(Vs consoles),and Bayonetta on PS3(Vs 360)are perfect examples of this.
Both games should be the better versions on both systems,due to superior hardware,yet they aren't.
Why? because the Dev's were too lazy to spend the time on them,or consult others with more experience with the hardware.
Instead they chose to take our money and run.
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