surf dtoid with 
Rising (10+)
People you follow
Exactly. And then there are certain games which are considered greatly successful with only around 10,000 sold... never mind hundreds. You just can't expect everybody to be interested in everything.
If this game was on the 360 instead, was an XBLA title, and had a few more unique things going for it, it could have sold a million. It could have also vied for that sweet M$ exclusive money off the bat.
Granted, you get the "but its cheaperz to develops on teh Wii" arguments, but if low budget studios can make games like Breach and Blacklight Tango Down for HD consoles, High Voltage can do it.
Granted, you get the "but its cheaperz to develops on teh Wii" arguments, but if low budget studios can make games like Breach and Blacklight Tango Down for HD consoles, High Voltage can do it.
Eric Nofsinger isn't saying it's preposterous to exepct a game to sell a million copies, he's saying it's preposterous to call a game a flop if it fails to sell a million.
That header text is very misleading.
That header text is very misleading.
Actually the same thing works with films. Sometimes a film earns less than it cost to make but still profits.
This is like a discussion in the forum's NGP thread...
Is success based on comparitive sales vs similar products
or
Is success based on profit.
I say profit personally. a product cannot make a profit and also be a failure.
Is success based on comparitive sales vs similar products
or
Is success based on profit.
I say profit personally. a product cannot make a profit and also be a failure.
That's similar to what Kenji Inafune postulated during that interview he gave right before he left Capcom; only Eric's not a quitter. Well. This comment turned out a lot more INAFUAMMATORY than planned.
P.S. I REGRET NOTHING!
P.S. I REGRET NOTHING!
"If it costs you less to make than you end up making off the thing, you make profit." HOLY SHIT! Is THAT how profit works?!?
But is it preposterous to expect that games not be touted as the greatest thing ever when they're merely copies of titles previously released in the mid-90s?
so should we expect to see everything nofsinger says for the next two months here on dtoid? this is exactly what doomed the original, OVEREXPOSURE. it is a decent, if not totally obvious, thought, however. of course wii games don't have to sell as many copies to be a success, that's business 101. smaller risk means smaller gains, but no risk equals no gains. scared money don't make money.
I don't see what Nofsinger is saying as changing how idiots think. The intellectual growth margin of fanboy factions is not an incline but a steep, slippery slope to hell.
I mean you have people that think you can add dual language options with a wave of the wand and that games like The Last Story would not change at all for going full-on HD on a PS3. Attached to reality these people ain't.
I mean you have people that think you can add dual language options with a wave of the wand and that games like The Last Story would not change at all for going full-on HD on a PS3. Attached to reality these people ain't.
It's a mistake to think that this is just about the Wii, though; think of indie and downloadable games on all platforms (esp. PC) and handheld games as well. And not just that, but it can apply to "main" consoles as well--I'm pretty sure Demon's Souls didn't come close to a million, but no one around here would deny that it's made quite an impression and people are greatly excited for its semi-sequel.
The above reminds me of a related point.
Games that cost less to make should cost lest to buy. a £20 game will see far more sales than a £60 game. Maybe at the right price your game would sell a million. or are you just gonna go with the old "highest price people will pay" routine?
Games that cost less to make should cost lest to buy. a £20 game will see far more sales than a £60 game. Maybe at the right price your game would sell a million. or are you just gonna go with the old "highest price people will pay" routine?
i've often thought the same, sexualchocolate
what if ps3/360 were 40 dollars a piece. How many more releases during the cramped schedule months would people feasibly be able to pick up? Also 40 american plus tax isn't much to get together, it certainly seems less intimidating than 60+ tax.
what if ps3/360 were 40 dollars a piece. How many more releases during the cramped schedule months would people feasibly be able to pick up? Also 40 american plus tax isn't much to get together, it certainly seems less intimidating than 60+ tax.
Isn't success still measured the old fashioned way... profit? If a game makes more money than it cost to make... then it's a success. If it cost more to make... regardless of sales, regardless of how "good" the game is, it's still essentially a failure.
The attitude that all games need to be highly polished technology-pushers and appeal to everyone just bugs me in general, I guess. It's not sustainable from a business perspective, especially as games continue to become more and more technologically demanding, and it's not what we gamers really need either because it's an attitude that excludes all but a few major publishers like EA, Activision, Square Enix. At some point there needs to be a scaling back and/or branching out on our part; and that's all I have left to say really.
Like I've said before, development cost is mostly up to the developer, not the console it's being made for. There is an element, but if you are making an exclusive, you can make it as simple graphically as you want as long as the gameplay is really good.
i completely agree! not all games have a budget of 50 million to make or even 1 million to make. its the AAA titles that kinda of have to push the big numbers as the budgets are overblown to begin with.
if i put $100,000 grand into a game and make $200,000 back, thats a 2 fold profit, i made back what i put into it and some.
if i put $100,000 grand into a game and make $200,000 back, thats a 2 fold profit, i made back what i put into it and some.
@brainderailment
I don't know what console exclusivity has to do with it, but I agree that not every game needs to be a graphical powerhouse to be good. I wish more PS3/X360 devs realized this.
I don't know what console exclusivity has to do with it, but I agree that not every game needs to be a graphical powerhouse to be good. I wish more PS3/X360 devs realized this.
Funny seeing this from the makers of Conduit. A mediocre, way overhyped mess of a game. Sounds like someone is a little butthurt.
I think people see the absurd number CoD sells and compare everything else to that. "What- only 7 million units!? That's nothing compared to Black Ops!"
No wonder developers like Treasure, Grasshopper Manufacture Atlus, NIS, Vanillaware, WayForward, are still around!
Games like Tatsunoko vs. Capcom didn't sell a million copies but Capcom confirmed the game was a success and the company didn't lose any money on it. No More Heroes 1 sold less than 400k copies yet it did well enough to spawn a sequel.However, other high quality games like Red Steel 2 sold only 270k copies so that was most likely a financial loss to Ubisoft.
The Wii's biggest third-party title is probably Monster Hunter Tri. The marketing campaign alone probably cost more than some other Wii titles.Yet the game was a success in terms of worldwide sales. However, Capcom expected better results despite how niche the franchise is overseas and being on a home console and not the PSP.
Games like Tatsunoko vs. Capcom didn't sell a million copies but Capcom confirmed the game was a success and the company didn't lose any money on it. No More Heroes 1 sold less than 400k copies yet it did well enough to spawn a sequel.However, other high quality games like Red Steel 2 sold only 270k copies so that was most likely a financial loss to Ubisoft.
The Wii's biggest third-party title is probably Monster Hunter Tri. The marketing campaign alone probably cost more than some other Wii titles.Yet the game was a success in terms of worldwide sales. However, Capcom expected better results despite how niche the franchise is overseas and being on a home console and not the PSP.
Sounds like words of butt-hurt from a 3rd party developer scraping by on Nintendo titles.
Games aren't much different from movies and TV where one or two blockbusters will pay for the other 90% of content. High Voltage shouldn't have their feelings hurt just because they're in that "other 90%."
Games aren't much different from movies and TV where one or two blockbusters will pay for the other 90% of content. High Voltage shouldn't have their feelings hurt just because they're in that "other 90%."
This statement is so true, but then you have other games by Sega, like MadWorld, that sold over 600,000 units. However, they said it had disappointing sales, because it didn't reach a million. I can't believe that a new studios first game would cost multi-million dollars to develop, on the Wii, so it must of made money for Platinum games. Plus Sega put out that triple hardcore pack on the Wii with the Conduit, HOTD: OverKill, and MadWorld, so that probably sold 200,000 more units right there. I guess the point is, maybe Publishers should keep their expectation is check. If any game on the Wii doesn't sell a million units and even some that do (Epic Mickey) the games press are so quick to call it a failure. But when the same thing happens on the 360, or PS3 you rarely ever hear how games like Vanquished, or Enslaved failed to sell over 500,000 on each of those systems!
The Wii has the largest user base though (about 85 million). Selling 1 million on the Wii is less impressive than doing it on the 360 or PS3 (about 100 million combined).
@soflk88
Just sayin' that HVS need not worry about what people worry about. If they're making their bottom line, what's it to them? Just weighing in on their part makes it sound like butt-hurt. They want their 300k-titles-sold or whatever to be considered a "success" in media and by word of mouth. If that many units sold puts enough money in their bank, then why do they care? Blog articles and the words of naive gamers don't pay the bills for game developers.
Just sayin' that HVS need not worry about what people worry about. If they're making their bottom line, what's it to them? Just weighing in on their part makes it sound like butt-hurt. They want their 300k-titles-sold or whatever to be considered a "success" in media and by word of mouth. If that many units sold puts enough money in their bank, then why do they care? Blog articles and the words of naive gamers don't pay the bills for game developers.
@Hiltz
Two quick notes:
- No More Heroes 1 sold 440,000 units.
- Just Dance 2 is the biggest third-party game on the Wii. It has sold over 5 million units worldwide whereas MH3 did around 600,000 outside of Japan.
@PEICanada7
The problem with your MadWorld example is that Sega Sammy is a publicly traded company. Thus, shareholders tend to get worried when their products don't meet the company's internal forecasts. Profit takes a back seat to in a case where a lukewarm reception from consumers or an overenthusiastic outlook by the publisher (or both!) causes products to come up short.
Two quick notes:
- No More Heroes 1 sold 440,000 units.
- Just Dance 2 is the biggest third-party game on the Wii. It has sold over 5 million units worldwide whereas MH3 did around 600,000 outside of Japan.
@PEICanada7
The problem with your MadWorld example is that Sega Sammy is a publicly traded company. Thus, shareholders tend to get worried when their products don't meet the company's internal forecasts. Profit takes a back seat to in a case where a lukewarm reception from consumers or an overenthusiastic outlook by the publisher (or both!) causes products to come up short.
Okay, but this is the same kind of logic that you can apply to films. "Paranormal Activities" didn't rake in bazillions of dollars, but it only cost $45,000 to make. Obviously selling tickets to 500,000 people would be considered amazing.
This is why NGP has me worried as a gamer. A fourth HD console (PS3, X360, PC, NGP) means developers will face an even more fragmented target audience, making the already-strapped games development industry even more troubled.
While it's true you don't need to sell a million units to be profitable on Wii, DS, PSP, 3DS, and also PC depending on your target audience, just to look "average" you need to sink millions of dollars into development on "HD" platforms.
While it's true you don't need to sell a million units to be profitable on Wii, DS, PSP, 3DS, and also PC depending on your target audience, just to look "average" you need to sink millions of dollars into development on "HD" platforms.
Seconding what Elsa said.
Surely people in the industry haven't forgotten this most basic tenet of doing business: revenue - expenses = profit.
Surely people in the industry haven't forgotten this most basic tenet of doing business: revenue - expenses = profit.
Considering High Voltage hasn't made a game that's sold that many copies any time remotely recently, its pretty natural they would defend that stance regardless of its merit. Its one thing to be a studio that makes niche titles that arent expected to sell a lot (Atlus or NIS). Its another thing entirely to make a mainstream guided FPS on the most popular console and fail miserably to the competition, THATS the difference.
Keep up the subpar work HVS.
Keep up the subpar work HVS.
i agree with him.
it's all about the costs. not everyone can make a multi million game and expect tremendous amount of sales. unless it's COD though that game doesn't cost millions of dollars. i feel that game only cost mere thousands.
it's all about the costs. not everyone can make a multi million game and expect tremendous amount of sales. unless it's COD though that game doesn't cost millions of dollars. i feel that game only cost mere thousands.
meh i prefer the conduit 1 to codblops any day of the week. At least the Conduit was quirky and kind of embraced its cheesiness. Duty Calls is a good summation of my experience with CoD. Looking forward to Duke Nukem. For me as long as capcom meakes enough to pump out ace attorney and ghost trick titles i'll be a happy gamer.
DS games are another good example of that. Retro Game Challenge sold 50,000 copies, which for an incredibly niche game with absolutely no advertising is great. They wanted to sell 100k before they'd even think about localizing the sequel which is just flat-out retarded.
I agree completely. If your game cost enough to make that you need to sell a million+ copies or be a failure, then you really need to take a look at how you're spending your development funding. Or pull your head out of your ass and realize not every game will be a best seller.
Pretty much what High Voltage said.. I mean thats the only way you can be sure anything is a success, you have to check it against how much it was made for/how much money was put into it and figure out how much was made.
Besides, going back to the obligatory Film analogy most of us use for gaming, if we looked at it the way most people/companies do then we wouldn't have more then 3-6 movies out a year - since not every movie breaks some preset benchmark. Plus when you flip it around games are priced at around 3x the current average movie price- and that price difference makes a huge difference when considering to go to either a few movies compared to buying one game.
Its nice to see a company with a cool head about this, I'm starting to get tired of the guilt trips we get when a game doesn't do "well" in a companies eyes.
Besides, going back to the obligatory Film analogy most of us use for gaming, if we looked at it the way most people/companies do then we wouldn't have more then 3-6 movies out a year - since not every movie breaks some preset benchmark. Plus when you flip it around games are priced at around 3x the current average movie price- and that price difference makes a huge difference when considering to go to either a few movies compared to buying one game.
Its nice to see a company with a cool head about this, I'm starting to get tired of the guilt trips we get when a game doesn't do "well" in a companies eyes.
"declaring that the industry wouldn't survive if such a believe were true."
should be,
"declaring that the industry wouldn't survive if such a belief were true."
just saying.
should be,
"declaring that the industry wouldn't survive if such a belief were true."
just saying.
This has been true since the Wii debuted and I think it's one of the main reasons 3rd parties continue to develop for the system. We read lots of press about how 3rd parties can't find success on the Wii and that more and more of them are gravitating towards other consoles, but that's just not the case. Developers are going to go where the money is and there is money to be made on the Wii.
It's fairly common knowledge that your big AAA Wii titles cost between 5-10mil to make, develop, market and distribute. Most Wii developers make about $20 profit from each $50 game disc sold at regular price. So you do the math, a $10mil game need only sell around $670k to break even. To make a 20% profit, which is near the average gross profit margin of the video game industry, that game would need to sell about 600k copies. A PS360 AAA costs between 20-30 million to make, market and distribute. Developers for those consoles make around $15 per each $60 disc sold at regular price. So said game would need to sell around 2mil to break even and 2.4mil to reach the same 20% profit margin.
Now of course these numbers don't take into account games sold a lower than retail cost or used game sales, but the they should still give you an idea of what developers are looking at when deciding what system they want to make a game for as far as potential profit goes.
It's fairly common knowledge that your big AAA Wii titles cost between 5-10mil to make, develop, market and distribute. Most Wii developers make about $20 profit from each $50 game disc sold at regular price. So you do the math, a $10mil game need only sell around $670k to break even. To make a 20% profit, which is near the average gross profit margin of the video game industry, that game would need to sell about 600k copies. A PS360 AAA costs between 20-30 million to make, market and distribute. Developers for those consoles make around $15 per each $60 disc sold at regular price. So said game would need to sell around 2mil to break even and 2.4mil to reach the same 20% profit margin.
Now of course these numbers don't take into account games sold a lower than retail cost or used game sales, but the they should still give you an idea of what developers are looking at when deciding what system they want to make a game for as far as potential profit goes.
follow
