HD Remix designer has beef with Street Fighter IV

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Home Street Fighter

10:00 AM on 02.25.2009, Dale North

71 comments | 8862 views

HD Remix designer has beef with Street Fighter IV photo

#Rant #Street Fighter

You can't say anything bad about Street Fighter IV in this day and age. Believe me, I've tried. It's almost as bad as saying how rich you are and how many cars and houses you have in the middle of this economic downturn. Hell, it's worse to gamers. I've let it go, but Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix chief designer David Sirlin hasn't.

He goes off on his blog. It's long. Here's just a taste of what he dosen't like, some of which I agree with:

you see the name before a match, and can drop
random isn't really random, and not double blind
input delay online
air hits are floaty
crazy button input requirements

"When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how 'simple and elegant' the game is," he rants. "Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that."

And he isn't feeling the "casual" label:

"Even more though, I hear how 'casual friendly' it is."

He continues: "Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself. "

Are you with Sirlin on any of this? I think Street Fighter IV is a great game, just not the end-all title that some have made it out to be. On the other hand, I think it's way better than Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix. Just sayin'.

[Via OXM]

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next 50 comments

70 comments | showing # 1 to 50

silvain

SFIV is not the end-all of fighting games. That is all.

Josh Tolentino

All I know is that I can barely beat Seth on easiest in a one-round match. It'll be a long, long time before I can unlock Akuma and Gouken.

Jordan Devore

The trick to beating Seth is jumping kicks, then running away. As long as you don't stand next to him long enough for him to grapple, you're golden.

Pyroph

Definitely agree. I've still had more fun with HD Remix, and in my opinion I like its play style more.

emuscles

the combos are too fucking hard (with an xbox controller) to pull off.

i don't see how difficult combos add fun to gameplay.

SephirothX

I dont know if this guy had a different version of SF4 than me or not, but I've experienced almost none of the issues this guy has (and I've seen these issues more in HD Remix than I did 4).

The only wish I had was that you couldnt see who your opponent was picking while playing online.

hjd uk

SFIV is NOT casual friendly. There is too much empasis on EX moves and the UltraCombos.

Seth on "Easiest" can still need an effort to actually beat him. The instant hit, non blockable, spinning pile driver is broken game design imho.

Even so i still think its a great game. But "simple" and "casual friendly" it is not.

deaddays

Wah, wah. Quit crying. People are going to bitch either way. He says it's too complicated for casuals, well if they dumbed it down the way he wants, people would say it hasn't evolved and doesn't have enough depth for the hardcore. Personally, I think the game is great. Easy enough for me to destroy some fools online, complex enough for me to get destroyed by others. Good stuff.

nilcam

Sirlin hates any Street Fighter that is not Super Turbo. His ego has also gotten out of control ever since HDR was released and did well. SFIV is a great game and quite different from HDR, which is also a great game. IV is a deeper and more complex game but it's also more satisfying to me because of that. My online experience has been better on SFIV and IV has not locked up my console yet, unlike HDR.

Demtor

Yeeeeah, still happy to have never played Street Fighter IV. Not my thing. The list he has there further solidifies my decision even more. I respect the amount of dedication and skill it requires to be good at a game like that, but count me out of that crazy shit.

Shane86

You shouldn't be able to see who your opponent is choosing in ranked matches, he's right about that.

Mr Gilder

I whole heartedly dissagree with Sirlin. If you want a simpler Street Fighter, with fewer button presses, ease of access, and less complicated mechanics, it's available to you. It's called Street Fighter II. There's also a modern, more refined version of it available for download that has been revamped with HD graphics. Sirlin should know about it. He helped make it. The problem with these games is THEY ARE STREET FIGHTER II. They feel clunkly, slow, repetetive, untechnical, and ancient . . . because they are.
Now, I love oldschool fighting games as much as the next guy. And I am far from saying SFIV is perfection incarnate. However, I don't think I'm alone in saying that Capcom's newest gem achieved exactly what it set out to do. The game strikes a balance between the broad appeal of 2 and the technical maze of the more recent SF titles. The focus attacks are far easier to execute than a parry in SF3, and the two special meters that are the same for every character are alot less confusing to deal with than the bevy of options available in the last Alpha/Zero title.
Sirlin's probably just grouchy because he helped with HD remix, but Daigo was invited to help with some of the balancing on 4 . . . and he probably can't beat the guy.

Justice

@unangbangkay
For me, the easiest and cheapest way to beat him is to jump in with a hard kick, followed by a low hard kick, then just keep doing focus attacks, timing them so that they fully charge and hit as soon as he gets up. Works on easiest for me every time, thought obviously with medium difficulty and higher it takes a lot more variety.

DinnertimeNinja

Super Street Fighter HD Turbo Whatever edition has pretty much every one of these problems this guy is discussing.

Street Fighter hasn't been "simple" since SF2 and SF4 is probably the simplest it's been in a while.

I'm just surprised that this guy didn't rag on SF4 for basically being a complete ripoff of SF2:HD that brings little new to the table.

Sure, I'm hopelessly addicted to SF4, but I still think it's bland as all hell.

Count Grishnack

I agree that 2X OCF+PPP is hard for me to do on the 360 controller, thus I stick with charge characters whose Hold B,F,BF P is easier.

I still love this game.

Necro BABS

Jesus, people whine over the littlest of things. I love playing with seth since i unlocked him its fun really. But you can map your controller so that all three punch buttons are on one button. Its not hard, people just suck at fighting game.

Then again like Aaron said on the Podcast, if it wasn't for the Ken spammers then the game would be good. I just telelport around them and Boom they have no fucking idea what to do.

eskimo bob

as much as I love SSF2THDR (and that is A LOT) I do prefer Street Fighter 4, but not by a whole lot. he makes some really good points here and I do agree with the people saying Street Fighter 4 should have some sort of tutorial mode besides just having training mode and a mode that teaches you combos. it would help my friends a bunch.

am I the only one on this planet with no problems doing a 360 without jumping or QCF x2 + PPP consistently on a 360 controller? I can't do very many combos with it, though. :( Madcatz, release your goddamn sticks already. >_<

JamnOnTheOne

"SFIV is NOT casual friendly. There is too much empasis on EX moves and the UltraCombos. "

I would agree based on my experiences over the last week or so. Especially needing to execute them successfully at the "easy" levels.

I'm all for the computer abusing the player once you hit medium and higher difficulties, but requiring precision on easy difficulties for folks that only have default 360 controllers is a bit insane.

Maybe having an actual joystick makes things easier...I don't know.

fetusmilk

theres a big difference between the people who count frames in fighting games, and everyone else. if you count frames you are WAY to into all the crap that can be done to use the systems flaws to win matches.

does it really matter if a move can be done only 1 frame after a certain other 1 frame move? who cares. you might have more fun playing if you just sit and PLAY the game and not dissect it to the point where you no longer have fun playing it.

Tubatic

Ultras and Supers are blockable, EX moves can be avoided by strategy, focus attacks aren't necessary to victory.

You can still get beat buy a guy that uses no special moves.

less QQ more using guys that are not Ken or Ryu.

Char Aznable

I love what was done in HD Remix to simplify some of the moves and button combinations, and was sad to see that some of that progress was pushed aside.

But yeah, what Nilcam said.

de BLOO

I find any charge moves impossible with teh 360 controller...

The circle motions are a breeze and I have mine to fire all 3 punch or kick on my RT & LT...

oh and SSF2THDR looks like ass.

My only gripe with the game is Sagat...they just made him slower, that doesnt balance him out!!!

Naim Master

It's the oly reason I won't buy SF4 , they should employ Sirlin for every SF game , otherwise , there's always unbalanced characters ...

casualweaponry

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I really like HD Remix, but I prefer SFIV.

KMCC

I'm still feeling out SFIV. I like it, don't get me wrong, but I find myself playing more HD online. It may just be a matter of time and familiarity: I wasn't sure about 3rd Strike at first either, and I love that game. I would equate the feeling to eating a foreign take on a familiar food.

Also, I'm not sure I love the idea of the Revenge super.

KMCC

I think for Seth, it's best to stay at mid range. Too far and he spams sonic booms, to close and he'll piledrive you every time. He's real weak at about sweep range.

Narishma

fetusmilk: What makes you think those people aren't having fun? Newsflash: fun is subjective. What you find fun I might find totally boring and vice-versa.

As for Sirlin, he wants to turn Street Fighter into a casual game like Super Smash Bros but I don't think that will ever happen. He might as well create a new franchise from the ground up.

Dimly

One thing I agree with here is the issue of rigid button input requirements. It took me just as long to finish the 'normal trial" with Ryu as it took to beat Seth (too too long)

When you see what you have to do, and can do each move individually, you should not have to decipher cryptic timing guidelines in the dark.. at least tell me if I'm executing a move in a combo too early or late.

Cynical Gamer

Gamers are such weaksauces these days.

Looptron

Cynical:

Sirlin places top 8 in ST every year and used to place Top 8 or Top 16 in Alpha, so he's not new to street fighter by any means.

I agree with a lot of what he has to say because this game can get into the stupid levels of difficulty. EX cancelling on a pad (360) is a ridiculous feat in itself especially for combos and stuff in the challenge mode can be very dumb to do with it. Also, the 1 frame links is a very bad idea.

Solgrim

You can block Ultras. Also, EX moves seem just like they were in SFIII. Did Sirlin not like SFIII?

smang

sf4 is the best fighting game to date!

for those having problems with 360 degree moves, you only have to do 225 degrees to pull it off. that's how you do them without jumping. check...

http://thirdworldgamer.blogspot.com/2009/02/street-fighter-iv-move-shortcuts-for.html

smang

sorry [urlhttp://thirdworldgamer.blogspot.com/2009/02/street-fighter-iv-move-shortcuts-for.html[/url]

smang

crap, i suck at bbcode!

Cynical Gamer

@Looptron. Big deal. You should really get an arcade stick.

zeroword

Alot of those things exist in 3rd Strike. His problem is any game that isn't Super Turbo.

One thing I do agree with, is that inputs should be easier. It is about time we just got rid of complex inputs to allow everyone to play the real game.

akathatoneguy

Narishma's got a point. I often cite the depth behind fighting games as a reason I don't seriously get into them, but I can also acknowledge that for many people, all of that depth is fun.

I enjoy playing franchise modes in sports games and setting up my team to be dominant for years to come with roster moves, etc. I've even recently gotten into Football Manager and other sim sports titles. It's dorky, and I spend a lot of time looking at screens with tons of information and no graphics, but to me it's fun. To each his or her own.

AlucardX24

Boy oh boy, if you newbies think EX moves and ultra moves are hard to pull off, wait until you dive deeper into the fighting genre. There you will meet my friend Virtua Fighter 5.

BulletTrain

The one thing I agree with him on is the ridiculous timing on the combo linking.

There's no room for error. If you don't buffer things exactly in the 1 or 2 frame windows of opportunity then you don't get your hits to link.

Logo

Some of the comments here are ridiculous.

First off Sirlin has been playing fighting games for well ever and has written a book on playing competitive games (that spawned from a very famous forum post oh so long ago). Saying that he wants to dumb games down is kinda ridiculous. Read any part of his site and his real bias is clear: He wants to have competitive games not put in arbitrarily hard execution just to make the game deeper when deeper strategic choices could do the job much better.

Second, on a website about competitive gaming and game design isn't the WHOLE POINT to be nitpicky. It's a critical look at a game not some pansy advertising-masked-as-a-review. No one jumps on ZP's great criticism of games because he does it with humor, yet the same statements made without jokes makes him a whiny-nitpicky-bitch?

Very hypocritical imo.

ghets

Definately not casual friendly. Whoever said that is a big fat liar.

jp007

Compared to Guilty Gear, this game is casual is fuck. That said, I LOVE it!!! It's soooo much better than how I initially thought it was going to turn out. I haven't unlocked anyone but Dan and Sakura yet because I've just been having too much fun playing ranked online matches. Any hate on this game, other than maybe Seth hate, is completely overblown and unjustified. The game is just awesome!

killias2

Maybe I'm being a dick, but isn't it good that this isn;t casual friendly? Wouldn't ever SF fan in the world had been totally pissed if this came out all shallow and easy?

I guess nobody is happy either way.

Jedah Doma

This guy is way off. Of course he will nit pick SFIV to death. He created SFT2HD, so anything that isn't his will be downed. Personally I think SFIV wipes the floor with SFT2HD.

BahamutZero

what idiot plays the game without an arcade stick anyway. that's like trying to give yourself brain surgery with oven mitts and a grapefruit spoon.

Two

I like SFIV way more than Remix, and I really enjoyed Remix. It's just SFIV kicks it up to the next level of natural evolution and Remix is basically that same game from like 15 years ago. Still great, but it needed a bit refreshing, which I think IV did.

electric goldfish

Ah Sirlin, I really never agree with him, ever.

SF4 will never be HD Remix, and he really needs to get that through his head. It's a different game in the same 'universe'. He needs to quit bitching and just learn the new strategies.

SephirothX

I think Sirlin's just jealous that his baby (Remix) has been pushed out of the Street Fighter limelight.

nefas

Being able to see your opponent's player choice before a match is just plan poor design. Too many characters have counter characters.

Floaty air hits just make some players jump adverse and promote the exploitation of mechanics to create near infinite combo chains.

The button requirements are annoying. Not because you need a joystick. They are annoying because it detracts away from gameplay. I always though fighting games should be more about timing, not about muscle memory in executing chinese finger torture.

It is annoying to listen to Capcom talk about lowering the bar for SFIV and making it casual friendly. No matter how Capcom dresses it up, SFIV is about as hardcore as hardcore games get.

JamnOnTheOne

@BahamutZero
"what idiot plays the game without an arcade stick anyway."

The idiot that can't actually purchase an arcade stick. I actually thought I could purchase one through an online retailer AFTER the release date. Now, I refuse to pay a 200% markup. $200 - $400 for an arcade stick is not something I'm interested in.

I'd go buy a SF2:Hyper arcade machine if I was going to drop that much coin on street fighter.

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