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GDC 2007: Live blogging the Microsoft RPG panel photo

There's a relatively small and yet very important panel about to start that Microsoft is hosting and Geoff Keighley is running that will take a look at RPGs and their impact and place in the world. Since only a small number of gaming outlets are even allowed in this thing, I thought I'd share the experience with the people of Destructoid. So, hit the jump, hit refresh and enjoy a hot steaming cup of live blogging ... Summa style.

 

4:30: People are still streaming in and I've got a whole lotta 1UP guys in front of me. And, fellas, Colette is sitting right next to me. Holla!

4:33: Mic check, mic check. Major Nelson is here and Peter Molyneux just walked in. 

4:36: Things are just about now getting started. Geoff Keighley is runnin' the panel which is made up of Peter Molyneux, Sakaguchi (Mystwalker, Lost Odyssey) and Dr. Ray Muzyka (Knights of the Old Republic, BioWare).

4:38: Evolution of RPGs? Molyneux says RPGs are the first games he loved to play -- Wizardy on the Apple. Lost his first girlfriend with Wizardry. Graphcis are a significant change, but the structure is still there and they are still recognizable. Says there are opportunities for change.

Muzyka: Other genres are incorporating elements of RPGs so it's hard to define RPGs nowadays. Says entire industry is incorporating RPG elements. 

4:40: Keighley: Are all games gonna be RPGs, what becomes of genre?

Muzyka: Definition is increasingly broad. Merging elements of other games into our RPGs just like others are putting RPG elements into theirs. Striving for the best. Story and character is what BioWare focuses on. Want combat that make you feel emotions such as fear. Want people to be very eager for new weapons, areas to explore, etc. We're defining RPGs based on the basic principles. Exciting for us to see RPG definition broadening. Reaching new consumers.

Molyneux: Agrees with Muzyka. To him, comes back to "role playing games." You are playing a role. It's exciting to try and capture what it feels like to be a hero. To start as nothing and be a hero. That is the journey. That is my real focus. That is the differential for me, from an RPG and a boxing game. I want you to feel like a hero, significant. Want you to really really feel that in Fable 2. Want that emotional engagement.  

Sakaguchi: Story is really important. Want to tell a great storyline. Want characters and environment players can relate to, that's what he wanted with Final Fantasy story. Want sense of exploration, accomplishment. 

4:45: Keighley: Turn based vs real time? What direction are we going in?

Sakaguchi: Crucial is detail. With respect to Blue Dragon, it's turn based but there are strategic elements. There are real-time elements. I'm currently working on an action-RPG title Crion (sp?) for Xbox 360. Instead of one single direction, there needs to be a variety of ways to play and be immersed.

Molyneux: There is space for both. I love the fact that you can sit back with turn based. We thought hard about whether or not Fable should be turn based. Went with action to have a sense of being immersed. I think it gives you a different flavor than action.

Muzyka: Key is telling story. No right or wrong way to do that. For Mass Effect, want to combine both sides. Can play as real time, more action, more mass market, but it has the depth as well. Has squad command and can also assign specific orders while in pause mode. It's difficult to do that and you're appealing to different audiences, but it's worth it for the fans. Everyone definition of RPGs are different. 

4:50: Keighley: Customizing RPGs, and linear vs open ended.

Sakaguchi: Focus is to tell a great story. Same with making a movie. Character customization is fun.

Molyneux: Thinking about this a lot -- not specific to Fable 2. There's customization and then there's evolution. I'm getting a bit bored with customizing just one character -- especially at the start when you're new to the world. Would like to build customization in game. Bored of set up screens with changing hair and eyes. Would like to build that into gameplay. Want to continue evolving that character through customization choices made. It's all about your engagement. If I can convince you that those are you things that you've chosen, then customization as evolution is interesting. Need to go a step further.

Muzyka: Want to have choices. Want player to believe they are making big choices that impact games. Non-linear narrative is very hard to create. We have great writers that are masters of that. Have to have consequences to choices and that's part of the evolution. Want different endings and building those things in Mass Effect.

Molyneux: Stoyline branches excite me. One snag, however. Have to be careful to not allow people to believe they've taken the wrong choice. Have to be very careful and realize that it's important that you and I can talk about the same moments. Branching is a tough thing because of that.

Muzyka: Replayability also important. Payoff is if it's your own unique story, just like life. Don't want same path. I love non-linearity. Want things to be impactful, emotional.

4:57: How do you balance non-linearity?

Muzyka: It's very hard to do and you have to pay a price to do that. But, it's for the greater good and difficult. Want players to feel they are making choices with consequences.

Molyneux: I really don't want to do multiple branching. The problem is, for me, is that I'm insecure enough to believe I will take the wrong path. It worries me that I'm going to be missing something.

4:58: Keighly: Multiplayer and online. How do you see multiplayer playing a role in the future of RPGs?

Sakaguchi: Fond of multiplayer and online connectivity. This is where I see growth, especially with FFXI. Hoping he can talk with Shane (Microsoft) and create an online game. Talking to Shane: Please Shane. 

Molyneux: Can I do one too, Shane? For the first time, consoles are connected and really connected. You're finding that people are leaving consoles connected all the time and there's a real opportunity there for that. If any genre was good for that, it'd be RPGs. The idea that you can show off and work with and meet with people is super exciting. I'd love to talk about that in enormous detail, but I've been gagged and can't. The home of real RPGs tends to be on consoles and only recently they are really connected. There's a lot of stuff and technology to work out and it's scary. You have to ask yourself if you're making an RPG or MMORPG or is there a middle ground. There are a lot of reasons why you haven't seen a real evolution of this. There is a revolution coming.

Muzyka: I haven't been gagged. We're really excited where MMOs are going because of the different stories. What if you could fuse classic RPG stories and impact and put that into an MMO. That's what we're building at BioWare Austin. MMOs are pushing the envelope that you can't do in single player games and it goes both ways. They are both very important and you can pursue a middle ground like in Neverwinter Nights. I think the social interactions between players allow you to tell stories of a different kind.

5:04: Keighley opens the floor to questions.

Some woman I don't know: Why can't several people in a party online work on a linear story?

Muzyka: You're right, it hasn't been done in a massive way. There are some missing ingrediants and it should be done.

5:06: Some emo dude: Is there a place for reality-based RPGs that allow you to choose dinner set on date and having a relationship with actual people in an actual world? Instead of epic, more normal and mundane.

Muzkya: One of the cool things about RPGs is it's aspirational. You don't want to be mundane. You want to be something great, not something you can be in real life. It can change with setting or gameplay. You want to be someone you can't be in real life. For me, it's exciting to do things I can't do everyday.

Molyneux: Interesting. Let's talk about it in Fable. Is chatting to girls mundane? Is having relationships mundane? Thinking about a game called Dimitri (sp?). Here's the idea: Could you be a hero in today's world? 24, Heroes, Lost, they are all set in today's world, and James Bond. That fascinates me. If we want to be the hero, where is the starting point? Yeah, we could focus on the mundane and experience washing up or level 3 of make up, we could do that. Or, do we focus on the dramatic? What's fascinating about this is: If I could say to you, if this room explodes, what would you do? That is fascinating and that is great gameplay. There could be mundane, real world, but that is tough because people experience average things different. In fantasy, you can brush over specific detail. 

Sakaguchi: Very interested in this. Been exploring this for ten years. Talked to Square Enix about it and explored those ideas. Thought of game about a boy who is trying to establish something with an ex girlfriend and school. Wants to explore this, but it's very tough.

Keighley: Why is it so tough?

Sakaguchi: We'll do it someday.

--There was a lot of translation going on and that's all that was said. Molyneux says, "all that?!?"

Dude: Isn't that what Shenmue tried to do?

Sakaguchi: I don't think so.

--That's it folks, hope you enjoyed it. Colette will be doing a post a little later on her impressions of the panel, since she humps RPGs daily. I love em, but frankly she's much more well-versed in them, so watch out for that.  


Continue: More Role Playing Games stories





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29 comments | showing # 1 to 29

Namelessted's Avatar
Namelessted at 03/06/2007 18:34
you best be live blogging. I need a page to refresh every 10 seconds. I am bored as shit.
Namelessted's Avatar
Namelessted at 03/06/2007 18:34
you best be live blogging. I need a page to refresh every 10 seconds. I am bored as shit.
ChrisFurniss's Avatar
ChrisFurniss at 03/06/2007 18:40
Throw stuff at the 1up guys!
ChrisFurniss's Avatar
ChrisFurniss at 03/06/2007 18:40
Throw stuff at Colette!
Hipple's Avatar
Hipple at 03/06/2007 18:40
Is that banner picture from FF XIII or am I crazy? Microsoft RPGs? Does Summa have some info on FF that we don't know about?
Philonious's Avatar
Philonious at 03/06/2007 18:40
Rub her thigh.... Good good. Now... Now smell her hair. RAWR.

Kind of interesting that the three panelists all make totally different kinds of RPGs. Let us know who sounds the smartest.
Namelessted's Avatar
Namelessted at 03/06/2007 18:44
i wish i could watch this. grr.
Jordan Grim Devore's Avatar
Jordan Grim Devore at 03/06/2007 18:47
I thought his name Sakaguchi?
Nick Chester's Avatar
Nick Chester at 03/06/2007 18:50
Live blogging = all sorts of mistakes. Let it slide!
Philonious's Avatar
Philonious at 03/06/2007 18:50
P.S. Kudos for doing this Summa... GDC coverage has been pretty weak across the web. It's nice to get some immediate info.
Jordan Grim Devore's Avatar
Jordan Grim Devore at 03/06/2007 18:53
No biggie.
Philonious's Avatar
Philonious at 03/06/2007 18:59
Molyneux - Is a visionary, but unrealistic. Also hard to "listen "to him talking about branching when he has yet to accomplish it... Choice in Fable was largely superficial.
Philonious's Avatar
Philonious at 03/06/2007 19:18
Nobody wants to be mundane..? Yeah, that Sims game hasn't sold all that well. -1 Muzyka.
ZealousD's Avatar
ZealousD at 03/06/2007 19:26
"Nobody wants to be mundane..? Yeah, that Sims game hasn't sold all that well. -1 Muzyka."

That's right. Only WOMEN want to be mundane.
Matthew Mac's Avatar
Matthew Mac at 03/06/2007 19:32
Right, I can't wait for a game where I change diapers, go to work, eat dinner and watch some TV, then go to bed. That would be so awesome! When is this 'mundane' RPG, where I can do all the things I am completely capable of doing in the real world, coming out?!
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 03/06/2007 19:35
The article itself fills me with optimism and sunshine. Some of the comments below the article fill me with pessimism and stormclouds.
Barbara's Avatar
Barbara at 03/06/2007 19:56
I really hope to see more games (RPG or whatever) take place in the real world with less outward violence and conflicts. It's a shame that Muzyka wants fantasy and epic storylines. How old is he? He's gotta be in his mid to late 30's and he still needs sci fi escapism? I can't wait for all of these nerds to stop making games, and people with something to say to begin.
Matthew Mac's Avatar
Matthew Mac at 03/06/2007 20:11
If you can do it in the 'real world,' whats the point of playing a game? It not escapism, its entertainment. Sometimes I want to blow the shit out of something, and the societal norms of everyday life normally don't allow for that.

And as much as people bitch about games with little to no story, having one about Bob who works as a programmer in an office and struggles to not get fired... right.
grrza's Avatar
grrza at 03/06/2007 20:53
@ Barbara

Great point. I totally agree. Developers who want their work to be considered art should take a look at other mediums to see what's artful there. Sure LOTR is great literature and there are some classic scifi and horror movies out there, but the large majority of novels and films take place in the "real world".

I think this can be done with games in a way that is fun (look at something like Oregon Trail (don't knock it)), and/or addresses really deep issues (e.g., existentialism, politics, real crime?).


Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 03/06/2007 23:50
While I like flying around in airships and sitting for ten minutes watching a Super Nova spell destroy the solar system as much as the next gamer, I too wouldn't mind a RPG based in the real world. Something vaguely (vaguely) like The Sims, I guess, but with an actual plot and point.

But, even so, I wouldn't want it to be completely mundane. I don't want a "real life simulator", I want an RPG set in modern times in which I play a normal dude thrust into increasingly non-normal circumstances. But not so non-normal that dragons or UFOs start flying around and people start throwing fireballs and stuff.

...actually, I don't know what I want. Rather than The Sims, I guess I'd say more like Shenume. But even Shenmue, judging by the ending of chapter 2 at least, seemed like it would have started going more toward the mystical/fantasy stuff had they not killed the series.

Maybe something like EarthBound, but somewhat more serious and less cartoony and without the crazy PSI powers and starmen and such.

Or maybe a pre-apocalyptic version of Fallout or something, without the Super Mutants and such.

Gah, this is harder than I thought. Basically, I want it to be just fantastical enough to be cool and awesome, otherwise why bother to even make a game in the first place, but "mundane" enough so that it's something that could really happen to somebody IRL, without introducing crazy stuff like magic or aliens or pseudo-science.
grrza's Avatar
grrza at 03/07/2007 00:03
Well, what about something like Hotel Dusk? I have yet to pick that up, so other than the noir setting, I'm not sure how fantastical it gets.
Aequitas's Avatar
Aequitas at 03/07/2007 01:46
@ZealousD: Nice! Misogyny ftw. =p

Molyneux is a visionary, and unrealistic, yes. But I'm damn glad somebody is thinking of somewhat original stuff. Now he just needs technical talent sufficient to create his outlandish concepts.

And I don't think the "mundane" RPG discussed had anything to do with a Sims-like reality RPG. As they mentioned, television shows like Lost, 24, and Heroes all take place in essentially present-day. It's all about starting off normal and introducing circumstances that lead to heroic adventure. The difficulty is deciding how far you want to take that - too much fantasy and you break the player's suspension of disbelief and might as well have made a pure fantasy game to begin with. It's a challenge that will take a masterful design team to overcome.
ConsummateK's Avatar
ConsummateK at 03/07/2007 10:39
I want to believe in Fable 2, I really do but after Fable...I just...I just can't.

I'm sorry Peter, but you've done this to me.
Azrael's Avatar
Azrael at 03/07/2007 11:32
Brandan: Not a bad idea at all! Im an indie dev, and since those are pretty much in the public domain, it could be done. Good one. Unfortunately games with a single enemy (moby dick) are oftenly not very entertaining because you always want to face the final enemy and necesarily it wont appear until the end. And Im not sure how a Whale hunting simulator would be taken by the media today, Still is a good idea though.
christpunchermpls's Avatar
christpunchermpls at 03/07/2007 13:36
Summa this is the best story you have ever done.
seriously, thanks
brad drac's Avatar
brad drac at 03/07/2007 14:38
Molyneux had no right to be on that panel beside sakaguchi and muzyka. He's never made a proper RPG in his professional career(fable is no more RPG than okami). And while he may be a visionary, his ability normally seems to fall somewhat short, especially with the inevitable march of technology.

In regards to games in the "real world", there are loads. Shooters like rainbow six, adventure games like broken sword, strategy games like civ etc. The reason, so far as I see it, that RPGs tend to follow the fantastic rather than the mundane is because almost all RPGs are combat oriented. The fact is, mayhem and slaughter doesn't happen all that often in the real world, apart from in war and whatnot. Without much combat, there'd be little to differentiate it from an adventure type game, or if it was set in a war, I imagine it'd be primarily an action or strategy game.

I also think it'd be pretty damn hard to turn most classic novels into enjoyable games. It's a completely different type of storytelling, solely due to gaming requiring sufficient interactivity to maintain interest.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 03/07/2007 20:00
I hope Fable 2 is cool and it likely will be as Fable 1 was, but yeah, I have this feeling that Fable 2 won't live up to half of the promises that Molyneux has been making about it. If anything, it will just be what Fable 1 should have been (or some of what Fable 1 should have been, anyway), and then he'll then have to later make a Fable 3 to implement all of the likely broken promises that were made for Fable 2. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.

And I also agree that Fable wasn't really a RPG, any more than I consider Zelda or Symphony of the Night to be RPGs.

Then again, what defines a "proper RPG" in this day and age? People could potentially argue that Oblivion wasn't a RPG, for some of the same reasons that I don't think that Fable was a RPG, yet I do consider Oblivion to be a RPG. What is it, exactly, that makes one game a proper RPG, but makes another game just an "adventure game with RPG elements".

Take Okami, for instance, since brad drac brought it up. I don't really consider Okami to be a RPG, and I'm fairly sure most people don't either. Yet, it has a RPG-ish story, it has a somewhat RPG-ish level up system, it has RPG-ish NPCs from whom the player gets quests and information about the game world, it has a RPG-ish inventory to manage. The only thing it doesn't have is the traditional RPG-ish combat.

Same with Fable. It has a RPG-ish story, it has a somewhat RPG-ish level up system, it has RPG-ish NPCs from whom the player gets quests and information about the game world (even if they tend to much more flat and lacking in personality than NPCs found in other games), it has a RPG-ish inventory to manage. Again, the only thing it doesn't have is the traditional RPG-ish combat. And yet, despite all these similarities to RPGs, I personally don't consider it or Okami to be RPGs.

But then, Oblivion. It has the RPG-ish storyline, the RPG-ish level up system (though one that is, again, different from most typical RPGs), NPCs where you get quests and information yadda yadda, and a RPG-ish inventory to manage. But, it too doesn't have the typical RPG-ish combat. Oblivion's combat isn't much more than a small step up from FPS melee. None of these games have the usual turn-based combat that most people typically associate with RPGs. Yet, I consider Oblivion to be a RPG, but not Okami and Fable.

Must a RPG have combat before it is a RPG and not just classified as an adventure game like, say, The Longest Journey or something? I'd say that some form of level-up system would have to be there, but then if we nix combat as in the previous question, would that then make a level-up system unneeded? Or would a level up system be used for something different, ala The Sims or something? I'd say that the NPCs have to be there, otherwise you just have a boring empty world. For instance, picture Diablo II but without the town areas. The story definitely has to be there for it to be a RPG. What about the inventory management? I've played a few RPGs that have nixed the inventory stuff altogether (Jade Empire, for instance) and it worked pretty well. And the kicker, the combat. If we do have combat, what kind? Turn-based, like most old-school RPGs? Pseudo-real time, but still technically turn-based, like FFXII and KotOR and such? Actual real time, like Jade Empire?

I can't recall whether or not Destructoid has already had an article like this before or not, but if not, an article focusing on what it is, exactly, that makes one game a RPG but makes another similar game not a RPG could be interesting.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 03/07/2007 20:05
Oh, I totally neglected to mention the whole "party system" element that tends to be a fixture in RPGs. But again, neither Okami nor Fable nor Oblivion have parties, unlike your traditional RPGs. And, again, Oblivion, despite this lack, is usually considered a RPG while the other two aren't.
brad drac's Avatar
brad drac at 03/08/2007 12:51
Well, the way I see it, oblivion is an RPG because it's stat heavy. There's a stat for the vast majority of actions you take, and these stats are increased by leveling(partially the opposite in oblivion, but you get the drift). Either this or traditional RPG combat, combined with all the other typical RPG junk(talkative NPCs, leveling, quests, story) are what constitute a "proper" RPG for me. Everything else is just a "slash" RPG, as in FPS/RPG. As one of the dudes said, most games are incorporating RPG elements these days, so the necessity of putting the /RPG bit is lessening.

But I think we're putting too much emphasis on the importance of labels and pigeon-holing. If a game's good, it's good. If it's bad, it's bad. Who gives a shit what type it is?
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