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Games are not supposed to be fun photo

This comes from a tip dropped over on Ectomo: a post on gaming blog Yahuda that challenges the universally-held notion that the primary, and perhaps sole purpose of games is to be fun.

Games are not supposed to be anything. Games are a medium, like movies, books, and painting. The problem with games, and the game industry, and gamers, is that no one has ever thought about games as other than a) how fun they are, and b) how many people play them. Everyone believes that a better game is one that sells more or that more people play.

Bollocks.

The author goes on to point out that paintings, books, movies, and other media have long since moved on from pure entertainment purposes, to a zone where they can serve alternative or additional purposes.  Paintings, the author points out, are no longer required to be purely decorative to be worthy of praise and appreciation. 

I've presented this hypothesis to several people and receive similar responses: if fun is no longer required in games, what's the point?

 

It's an intriguing question.  And my forays into "art games", and games whose driving purpose is not to be fun, but to teach or to be artful, have taught me that these games are boring, and that I immediately want to stop playing them.  I think one could argue that a painting could be high art, even if it compels you to stop looking at it, but I opine that the looking is as much a part of the experience of the painting as what the painting itself portrays.  If one is not looking at a painting, one is not experiencing it.  The same goes for games.  The minute I stop wanting to play a game, my experience with the art of it is crippled.

So I submit that instead of changing our expectations of games, and eliminating our expectations of fun from games, we elevate the experience of fun within a game to the level of art.  Fun is an element of games, just as color is an element of paintings.  I think the definition of "fun" can be expanded to mean a sense of gratification from interacting within elegant design.  

Roger Ebert infamously stated that games would never be art, as they require audience participation.  This argument is mindboggling to me, as any piece of art, once it actually departs the skull of the artist, requires audience participation for validation.  Even if the only audience is the artist himself, his gaze and consideration completes the art object.

I'm interested in the opinion of the Dtoid public: how would the definitions of "art", "fun", and/or "gaming" have to shift in order for games to be regarded with the same respect as paintings, movies, and music? 

Games Are Not Supposed to Be Fun [Yehuda] 


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38 comments | showing # 1 to 38

Tiff's Avatar
Tiff at 08/03/2007 18:49
LOOK BEHIND YOU THERE'S A THREE HEADED MONKEY
spacecadetjoe's Avatar
spacecadetjoe at 08/03/2007 18:54
I don't think that a game necessarily has to be fun to be compelling. The game in question could be no fun at all but still keep you hooked through devices such as storytelling, fear, or a host of other things. Take a film such as Schindler's List; it's not exactly fun to watch but it certainly is still compelling, gripping and powerful.
Cosades's Avatar
Cosades at 08/03/2007 18:54
It's true, all art is interactive. I propose the Quantum Principle of Art: that just by viewing a work of art we change it.
Cosades's Avatar
Cosades at 08/03/2007 19:00
Sorry to double-post, but I forgot to address the games as fun point. My kingdom for an edit button.

In general I'd agree that if we define fun as wanting to continue experiencing a game, games should be fun. I can think of one exception to this, though. Every moment I spent playing System Shock 2 was taxing for me, and I did not enjoy the experience at all. If anything I played through the game out of a sense of duty. Yet I would say that that game is one of the cornerstones of video games as art.
Tiff's Avatar
Tiff at 08/03/2007 19:02
But on a more serious note, heh, it's clear that there are games that reach out more deeply or more 'artfully' than others by way of utilizing the interactive aspect of gaming to elicit reactions that aren't necessarily oriented around fun. Flow for example can be considered quintessentially fun through the its simply gratifying mechanisms, but I believe the overiding effect of it is derived from the ethereal, 'close to nature, but not quite' aura that it conveys through its design, which in the ends turns out to be incredibly beautiful.

I believe the more that gaming explores these varying degrees of interactivity and human involvement (but preferably not in the form of a crap ton of mini-games) the closer they'll get to become a truer art form.
uptonogood's Avatar
uptonogood at 08/03/2007 19:20
by viewing art, you give meaning to its existence; but there is a caveat -- art is meant to be viewed and it exists whether or not we view it. its creation and meaning is given by the artist and as viewers, we are passive. when academia is tossed in, we corrupt it but give it life at the same time.

if i had to do academia all over again, i'd have burnt down the art theory offices and taken up biology instead.

live and learn.
Cosades's Avatar
Cosades at 08/03/2007 19:34
I don't think viewing art is a passive experience. Each viewer brings different preconceptions, prejudices, values, and tastes with them. I would argue that the artist creates the work, but the viewer gives it meaning. The author might have some particular intent for the piece, and if that intent is communicated it means that the viewer and artist are, for lack of a better phrase, on the same wavelength. But the experience of a viewer who finds different meaning in a work is no less valid.

All art -- music, painting, sculpture, literature, video games -- is a partnership, a collaboration between artist and recipient. By interpreting art, we own it. The only way to view passively is not to interpret at all -- to record, store, and think of no more.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 08/03/2007 19:49
Papapishu's Avatar
Papapishu at 08/03/2007 19:55
Fun's a tricky word. Satisfying is a better one.

I found watching Harakiri heartbreaking but at the same time I found it satisfying and bold. Clockwork Orange is a story about a man whose ethics are deplorable, but who is nonetheless oddly compelling. Sure, games don't NEED to be "fun", they don't need to be anything really, but you have to have a reason for playing them. Any problems that apply to games and enjoyment have analogs in other mediums.

What really strikes me is not the point that is trying to be made, but instead the reason behind it. Gamers like myself see games as being capable of so much more. We WANT the medium to explode. We WANT it to be taken seriously. But in order for that to happen, some of us feel as though we must divorce ourselves from our 8-bit history; wash off the palimpsest and start anew. It happened in Sci-fi and comics, and it's happening now in games. But a complete rebirth is not neccicary, there is wisdom in older games.

Want to try something that stretches the boundries of "Fun"? Play The Cosmology of Kyoto on Dosbox and wander through Buddhist hell. Play Bad Mojo, a game that would make Kafka proud. Play Fatal Frame, for god's sake, in the dark at four in the morning and see if that's fun for you.

Our history is a boon, not a burden.

And whatever you do, stop giving that old mute codger any credence. The man is a hypocrite anyway and has no right to criticize a medium he once seemed fond of.
TheBrain's Avatar
TheBrain at 08/03/2007 20:10
"Fun" isn't always the reason I play games. I play to test the rules of the games developers create for us, not for fun, but out of a sense of curiosity at what effect my actions will have on the game. Sometimes this elicits a "fun" result, but mostly I just find it interesting.

I also play for a (false) sense of accomplishment and to be challenged. For example, Stuntman wasn't fun for me, but it was awesome and it did feel good to beat it and watch those replays of my hard work.

I mainly play to experience what others have created. I play Mario Bros. for fun. I play Shadow of Colossus to feel a sense of wonder and explore what it is like to be someone I'm not.

Games don't have to be fun. Games are art. Eventually this will be obvious.
HappyMachete's Avatar
HappyMachete at 08/03/2007 20:10
Nothing has to be anything.
Professor Pew's Avatar
Professor Pew at 08/03/2007 20:10
Indeed, just point the person to the Ebert/Games are not art debate..

Games are still entertainment, they are made to sell as entertainment. One day there will be an indie game-developent scene where they make it as art. That day is not now. It may not even be here in 10 years. And wtf, there are enough good films that are considered art and are also fun to watch. Although I'm not sure if say, The Holy Mountain falls in either categorie.

May the gamers' Tarkovsky rise though, I'll enjoy his/her funless piece of art interaction when it's out.
Sharpless's Avatar
Sharpless at 08/03/2007 20:11
If a game is fun/enjoyable, then I play it. If it isn't, then I don't play it and, thus, it's not worth the effort. That's it, for me. Fun, however, is subjective. You can't objectively label a game as being fun. I'm having a lot of fun playing Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction for the Xbox, right now. Not everyone finds/found that game to be fun. It's not a hugely popular, well-known game. But I find it much more fun than games that are three times as popular and considered "fun" by many.

Really, it all depends on the experience you're trying to draw from the game. As Papapishu said, a game like Fatal Frame is just damned scary, and being scared and disturbed isn't fun for me. For many, though, it is. So, while many wouldn't necessarily define horror games as being "fun," they actually are, for those who derive enjoyment from being freaked the fuck out.

So, uh, yes. It IS all about being "fun," but "fun" takes different forms for different people.
HappyMachete's Avatar
HappyMachete at 08/03/2007 20:13
Nothing has to be anything.
blehman's Avatar
blehman at 08/03/2007 20:28
Games themselves, to be considered art, is a catch-22 situation. I mean, what is the previous example? I've seen paintings that are so dull I can't even stand to look at them for two seconds, yet the artist put them there with the express purpose to look below the surface. On the other hand I've seen statues that I can't look away from because their beauty exudes from any angle. Movies can be artsy and boring, or be mind blowingly violent and you can't look away. Just watch oldboy and try not finishing it, as horrible as the ending is.

Games on the other hand are in the mind of the beholder. How many times have I played the same game through, time and time again, because it touches a part of me that can't be sated with anything else? I believe that there are certain games that can be considered art, while there are certain games that are there just to be f'd around with. Hell, even teh haloes can be considered art if you back up and watch the whole story unfold along with the action involved.

The difference, I believe, is the time frame involved. Were paintings and statues considered art at the time of their inception? Probably. Were movies considered art when they first arrived on the scene? Probably not. However when viewed from a distance, anything can be seen from a different angle. The difference here is that games are not played by everyone, as paintings, statues, plays, and movies are now. The whole gaming community is viewed by those that don't as a separate entity than any of those listed above, and as such, most people view it as a silly little game that requires minimum thought and violent tendencies. But to those of us in the know, know the game itself is a medium to a deeper meaning. We become the character by means of situation, and find ourselves becoming more involved with the game than simple button mashing. Not to say that some games are more than button mashing, but some games delve deep into our psyche and become a part of us, living on until our dying day.

That's just my opinion.
donkeykong's Avatar
donkeykong at 08/03/2007 20:32
I wouldn't necessarily say games are art. I would even go so far to take that distinction away from some movies. In fact, before I say anything else, I'm going to find out how art is officially defined. brb. Hmmm, that was vague.

Truly useless.

Would any of you consider monopoly art? it's a game but not very digital (unless you are playing it on your super Nintendo). what about madden 2007? it's just a computer generated simulation of something that exists in the real world, but way less exciting. Would you consider football art? What about watching football?

I think I've made a sufficient case for how pointless this talk-a-thon could become. The point I'm making is that even if some video games are artistic, you'll never convince me that they are all art. It may not have been Ebert's place to say, but I agree with him nonetheless.
GrayFox's Avatar
GrayFox at 08/03/2007 20:44
Do we read Orwell because it is fun? No, we read it because it presents us a new way of viewing the world and has the ability to transform us. Games can/should have this ability as well, but you have to keep the audience's attention by telling a good story and giving the people reasons to keep playing.

Entertainment comes in many forms; the relatively mindless fun which you see in 90% of games is merely the tip of the iceberg. The uniqueness of the video game medium has gigantic potential for creating meaningful art.
blehman's Avatar
blehman at 08/03/2007 20:46
@greyfox

That was the point I was trying to make but much more to the point. Good job.
Shearie's Avatar
Shearie at 08/03/2007 20:48
I don't play the Silent Hill games for fun and in actuality, I play them to make me feel like shit.
Shearie's Avatar
Shearie at 08/03/2007 20:49
Take that intellectuals!
JonDarkwood's Avatar
JonDarkwood at 08/03/2007 21:36
Very insightful, i'd never considered that before. I'll agree with that, the fact that I wouldn't play particular games that aren't fun for me, doesn't mean it can't be appreciated by other people!
questworld's Avatar
questworld at 08/03/2007 22:01
Well I suppose there's "fun" and there's intellectually or emotionally stimulating. Not sure if they're the same though I'm sure they overlap in many ways. I mean I'd watch a comedy for "fun" but I don't necessarily consider watching a documentary about the holocaust as fun (at least I don't think that's a proper definition). Either one can still be a fulfilling experience that either makes you laugh or makes you think and inspire. Do videogames do that? I'm sure they could and do on a game to game basis?

I guess I'm saying it's ambiguous this definition of "fun," but at least I know what I don't want a videogaming experience to feel like: a chore.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 08/03/2007 22:03
Very insightful, i'd never considered that before. I'll agree with that, the fact that I wouldn't play particular games that aren't fun for me, doesn't mean it can't be appreciated by other people!

Now, if only... if only we could get sentiment like this to also apply to the Console Wars in general or to the ongoing Casual vs Hardcore debate or the rest... it would be a thing of beauty. *tears up just thinking about it*
OldschoolVgamer's Avatar
OldschoolVgamer at 08/03/2007 22:05
WARNING: This may sound like a flame, but I don't really intend it.

Praise the woman who wrote that article! She seems smart and I think she has a point, it doesn't have to be anything.

She's saying most of what I have been saying for quite a while about art. It's not meant to really be what the player always says it is.

I've made the arguement before that too many people think that art is defined by the consumer and what they like when I say "Screw that shit!" Instead I define art as being what the designer wants. Whether the player likes it I think is a moot point. I think it's just a consumers way of giving themselves a pat on the back at how important they are to the business side of things. Gaming is seen less as an artistic medium and more as a business. Being as it has gotten more business oriented then it means catering to an audience. The audience is the one thing that financially keeps it alive. A lot of consumers know this and may have gotten to the point where they think they are the judges of what is what. Whether we realize or not, a lot of us may have gotten to the point.

So if I say art is anything at all, then it would definitely be by the designers whim, not the consumers want.
Mxyzptlk's Avatar
Mxyzptlk at 08/03/2007 22:26
Games may not have to be fun, but if they're not I won't bother with them. The reason I play games is to be entertained. If other people feel the urge to to suffer through an unenjoyable game, more power to them. I have better things to do with my time.
doctahhdooom's Avatar
doctahhdooom at 08/03/2007 22:43
Who said games need to be fun? They need to be entertaining.
DinnertimeNinja's Avatar
DinnertimeNinja at 08/03/2007 22:50
Unlike the poster before me, I think the article is crap.

First off, it assumes that gamers as a whole judge a games greatness by its sales. Basically, that's calling gamers stupid, and if you want to make a point to any group, you shouldn't insult them.

Second, games are just like any medium; if a game/book/movie isn't entertaining in some respect to SOMEONE, then it's meaningless. Entertainment, not necessarily fun (both of which are pretty vague terms) is the key here.

In any medium, if the audience (or at least SOME audience) isn't entertained, then the creator has failed.

Yes, the artist, or game designer in this case, should have final say as to where the game will take you, but if there's no incentive to go along for the ride, then you have nothing.

Yet another example of how video games act in the EXACT same manor as other mediums.

And the argument that the audience influences the outcome is moot because in the end, the only REAL outcomes are the one put in BY THE DESIGNERS!

The path you chose does not effect the end of the story (unless the maker WANTS it to, that is). Much like the vision in you head of how characters, events, and locations are percieved in books does not effect the ending of the book, a gamers choice to stand over a dead body in an FPS and duck-hump them for an hour does not change the fact that storyline is almost always set.

Like in any other art form, you're just along for the ride.
entropyman's Avatar
entropyman at 08/03/2007 23:43
concerning point B I agree fully- case in point: psychonauts one of the most creative and engaging games that I have ever played- there weren't a million particles flying and things blowing up but the atmosphere alone makes it worth anyone's time (esp. the black velvet world).
concerning part A I think that it is kind of a dumb thing to say because the only reason that you play is because it is fun- whether you find frustrating puzzles or pwning a fps room or trying to make a jump a thousand times- or even if you do nothing it is all fun to the person who wants to play the game or they wouldn't play it
NinjaX's Avatar
NinjaX at 08/03/2007 23:51
Sorry, if games weren't fun I probably wouldn't be playing as much. It would be like books. At that point, I'd search for something that is to videogames what videogames is to printed books today.
Sharpless's Avatar
Sharpless at 08/04/2007 00:44
"Who said games need to be fun? They need to be entertaining."

That makes no sense whatsoever. If you're being entertained, then you're having fun. What on earth on some of us using as a definition of "fun"? Saying that games aren't supposed to be fun is, effectively, saying that games aren't supposed to be enjoyed at all. There is no logic in that whatsoever.
KaL YoshiKa's Avatar
KaL YoshiKa at 08/04/2007 01:54
Honestly the way the Article is written reveals a lack of understanding of the gaming industry.

The fault in her argument is that video games as a quality are dictated by their sales and/or popularity. If we were to apply the same logic to movies a lot of movies that would be included in that catagory would be anything but art (in the sense that the author was discussing).
BA Chieftain's Avatar
BA Chieftain at 08/04/2007 02:00
To Sharpless, and a few others:

The first definition of entertainment through Google: an activity that is diverting and that holds the attention

By this strict definition, I do think that games need to be entertaining, because they cannot be experienced fully if they are not.

However, fun's first definition is: activities that are enjoyable or amusing. I'm currently playing FF VI for the first time (I know, blasphemy). It is difficult, challenging, and engrossing 95% of the time, and fun for the remainder. Satisfying? Yes. Fun? Not necessarily.
Amethystine's Avatar
Amethystine at 08/04/2007 02:51
I wrote a lot of stuff, as always, but it was too long, so I'm going to make a full blog post about it:

As for games, 'art' and 'fun'.. And 'Fun VS Entertainment', maybe I'll be able to fit it here:

I realized when I saw Black Hawk Down, and tried to define its qualities afterwards, that I could not call it 'fun', or even exactly 'entertaining' in my somewhat limited definition of the word, back then.

I came to appreciate film critics' use of words like 'gripping' or 'compelling', as a movie about war or atrocities like genocide aren't exactly uplifting or highspirited.. but they do make you think. Hense the often used term 'thought-provoking'. So, I realized I could be 'entertained' without something being 'fun' or exciting in the 'f***-yeah!' action movie sort of way.

The question is if games can do the same thing, and be compelling enough to keep us playing (or should I say 'participating', as 'play' suggests something 'fun') even if they're simply thought-provoking. I suppose it would come down to what people go to games to receive. Do we, as a culture want anything more than the equivalent of fantasy, sci-fi, and action movies as games?
Amethystine's Avatar
Amethystine at 08/04/2007 02:53
I meant to say that I didn't read any other comments, so I may have been repeating what a lot of other people already said. Oh well, that was just my thoughts on things solely after reading Gauger's article.
Burnt Meatloaf's Avatar
Burnt Meatloaf at 08/04/2007 04:36
What about those people that get so mad at their games they occasionally throw the controller across the room?

Then they pick it up and keep playing.
Sharpless's Avatar
Sharpless at 08/04/2007 12:33
@BA_Chieftain

Definitions of "fun":
1 : what provides amusement or enjoyment

Definition of "amusement":
1 : a means of amusing or entertaining

Therefore, fun and being entertained go hand-in-hand. I think some of us are being a little too strict with how we interpret the word "fun." It doesn't just mean we're jumping around giddily and laughing and generally acting like Zoolander at a dance party. Fun is, effectively, anything that's a positive experience. And if a game is something that is satisfying or positive in any way, even if the tone of the game is harsh or the game is challenging, then it is still fun. So, yes, anything we favor and enjoy and keep coming back to is, almost always, fun.
Im OK's Avatar
Im OK at 08/04/2007 16:28
Really, I think most of us are in agreement here and it's just the semantics that are tripping us up.

Do we not all agree that video games should be "fun" or "satisfying" or "entertaining" or "capable of holding our interest" or whatever phrase or word you want to use? Is this not also the case with other media such as books, and movies, and the rest? It's roughly the same thing. To me, "fun" does not mean only the happy-fluffy-cotton-candy "wee this is fun!" stuff. To me, "fun" also encompasses "creeped the fuck out by Silent Hill" and "sad when Aerith died in FF7" and stuff like that as well. "Not fun", to me, means mind-numbingly boring and/or flat out unplayable.

Do we not also agree that the medium of video games could be potentially used to produce some incredibly awesome, meaningful, and, yes, artistic material, the likes of which we have barely begun to scratch the surface of today?

Also, I'll ask again, as I did in the article to which I linked in my first comment of this thread: Why do so many people seem to think that "art" and "fun" are somehow mutually exclusive? Can't a game be both at the same time? If that actually can't, for whatever retarded reason, then I am going to pick "fun" over "art" every single time. As with the books I read, the movies I watch, the music I listen to, the paintings I gaze at, and so on and so forth, if a video game does not meet my personal definition of "fun" in some way, then I'm not going to play it, plain and simple, no matter how "artistic" it may be considered by others. Unless I have to do it for school or whatever, I'm not going to force myself to slog through something, be it a video game, book, movie, or what have you, simply out of some misguided sense of "I am bettering myself, because this is supposedly 'art', despite the fact that I think it sucks ass myself and otherwise could not care less about it" or whatever bullshit.
Civnerd's Avatar
Civnerd at 08/06/2007 22:50
To me, explaining my passion towards gaming is like a hobby more than an artform, and I approach it that way. Some people get enjoyment from painting, some from making wooden furniture, others drinking beer and fishing. For me it's video games.

Quoting Ebert is like quoting an art critic from the dawn of filmmaking and asking him/her if movies will ever become a serious artform. Useless comments from someone too detached from the media to truely critique it.
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