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Gamers For Gaming: The plan revealed  photo

It should be no secret to the more observant amongst you that the current debacle surrounding Manhunt 2 has hit a nerve with myself and Jim. It's not that we feel particularly protective of the game itself, or of Rockstar as a developer. What we have a serious issue with is the principle at stake here. Like many of you, we adamantly feel that such an action against any piece of media is an action against civil liberty and freedom of choice, and with your help, we want to try use our position as games journalists to do something about it. I've included a synopsis of the situation below for clarification, but if you already feel clued up enough on all the issues present here, feel free to hit the jump.   

Despite supposedly having a "games ratings system in the UK that is effective", a piece of entertainment designed purely for the adult market, and never pretending to be anything but, has been effectively banned, thus deeming the adult British gaming public unfit to handle it. The BBFC has stated that releasing the game "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors" and that even if released only to adults, the title would be "unacceptable to the public". The game's "bleakness and callousness of tone" was cited as part of the reason. 

While of course I'd love to be able to tell you how accurate that appraisal is, obviously I can't, as I'm not being trusted as an adult to engage my critical faculties and make up my own mind about what I like and don't like. Apparently the BBFC already knows what would be "unacceptable" to me. And all of this from an organisation which regularly passes bleak and callous movies with few or no cuts, and accepted in one of its own reports that violent games do not have a negative effect on the player. So what's the problem

Well every new medium and cultural movement has teething troubles, that's something that we've seen countless times. From Elvis, to hippies, to home video, to games, the new has always been treated with suspicion and judged more harshly that pre-existing media until it becomes naturalized within the culture of the time, and it seems that that's exactly what what's happening here. While vacuous "torture porn" like the Saw series and Hostel is consistently released with no problems, despite offering merely tenous narratives to justify its content, gaming gets hammered by a hysterical and sensationalized press and is forced to suffer all manner of ridiculous accusations and slurs. Of course violent games should be rated accordingly, and those ratings should be enforced, but a ban is an infringement on liberty which other media are unlikely to have suffered. And if this course of action becomes a precedent, as a society we're on a very slippery slope indeed. But are we just going to sit around and complain to ourselves? No we are not. 

So to this end, we've decided that we want to act, and we want you guys to help us. A large part of the problem as we see it is that the pro-gaming side of the argument rarely ever gets voiced adequately within the mainstream press and media. Of course, educated gaming publications rail against situations like this all the time, but being specialised gaming publications, we're unfortuantely, by and large, preaching to the converted. Despite a brilliant sense of cameraderie within the gaming community, we are rarely seen as a unified voice during periods such as this, and therin lies our problem in getting these issues explored fully and openly.

So we want to find a way of pulling everyone together in order to make our perspective known. Currently the idea is very much in the early planning stages, but we've already been happily stunned by the level of support you've given us. Ideally what we want to create is some sort of organised campaign in order make our concerns known once and for all, which all being well, we hope to culminate in some manner of large scale event in order to bring everyone together under a shared goal. Exactly what this will be, we are as yet undecided, but we know we want it to be big, fun and attention-grabbing, but with a serious message at its core. After much discussion with the community, we've decided to call the enterprise "Gamers For Gaming". We feel this sums up the idea behindthe campaign perfectly, evoking the simple enjoyment of gaming we all want, without any unnecessary complications. 

There's an incredible amount of good in games and the gaming community. They're not only fun, but at their best can be stimulating, thought provoking, and dare I say it, amazing pieces of interactive art. They bring people together, incite debate on all manner of topics, bring about friendships, and forge communities. I feel I'm right in stating that everyone involved in this site, from community to staff, has felt the many positive effects of gaming at various points in their lives, but has also been unfortunately aware of the negativity to which the medium can be unfairly subjected.

Well we think it's gone on for too long. Of course new forms of entertainment and art are initially questioned. We can understand that. But gaming has been around long enough for that attitude to be unnecessary now. Millions upon millions of men, women and children play together globally these days, and its about time we moved beyond outdated and overly cautious perceptions of a medium which has brought so much good into the world. It's about time gaming was truly seen on an equal footing with the rest of the entertainment industry. Things have come on leaps and bounds over the last few years, and gaming really is in the best position it's ever been in as a mass-media phenomenon, with many of us believing that the teething-troubles were over until recently. Apparently that's not quite the case though, as while bans of boundary-pushing material are happening, there's still work to be done in making our pastime a fully matured and legitimized entertainment medium. 

So we want your help and suggestions in making something happen. As I've previously said, the support we've had from you has already been overwhelming, and it's things like this that make you the incredible community you are. We say it a lot, but it's absolutely true. You guys are fantastic. We want your ideas, we want your suggestions, and we want all of you involved. We feel it's time to give something back to the medium that we've all gained so much from, and we know you lot are exactly the sort of people to help in doing that. Like I said, at the moment we're at a very early stage, but from this point on, Jim and I will be contacting as many people as we can in all areas of the industry to see if this thing has got legs, and we're going to give it our every effort to make it happen. Start getting in touch with us as soon as you can. We'd love to hear from every one of you. 

And in the meantime, do what you can on your own. It's tricky, but there are things you can do. The BBFC is a non-governmental body, but feel free to contact your MPs with your feelings on this matter. You can find a full list of them here. These things get raised to the government from a negative perspective, so why not ours? ELSPA also exists as a guardian of the British games industry, so make sure they know you're unhappy with their inaction. Arm yourself with the information you need and hit them with well-considered, non-inflammatory expressions of your feelings, and hopefully they might pay attention. And while it's a long-shot, the same might go for the BBFC themselves. It's definitely worth a trip to their site regardless, if only to read up on their regulations, ruling, and their previous reports on gaming, particularly the one I cited above, which can be found here

Let's get on this now, and let's get some serious momentum happening. Apathy and acceptance of these things is the only way they can continue, but conversely, making a stand and making your voice heard can and does make all the difference. Let's make that difference. 


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124 comments | showing # 51 to 100

DrRockso's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 01:57
DrRockso
Sign me up. I'll buy bumper stickers, write letters, wear buttons, whatever.

You guys have my undying respect for doing this. Long live Jim, Dave, Destructoid!
Dr Hairy Dwarf's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 02:01
Dr Hairy Dwarf
I'm all for a rating system, if a game deserves a AO then so be it but it's censorship and banning that gets my goat.
Not sure if manhunt2 is coming to New Zealand but when a game runs into trouble in UK or Oz our rating board tends to follow suit.
I will help if I can and now plan to find out if said game will make it to my shores.


garrfunkel's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 02:36
garrfunkel
LETS GO TEAM!!!! YAY!!!!

Gimme a "D" !!! Gimme a "TOID" !!!
CrakieRacooon's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 02:48
CrakieRacooon
Throughout it all,I will offer my support 100%.I'm an American chick.Manhunt isn't one of my favorite games,but this is now beyond whether or not if one likes the series.Our very own choice of decision making and values are now being chosen for us.To make this short cause I'll go on,I support you guys all the way,and as a game designer/programmer myself in training, the future isn't looking too bright for inspiring REAL game designers.And something need to be done,or should have been done.
Reeper's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 03:32
Reeper
@dprim3

i don't understand where you're going with your post. you say that the site offers no "professional or intellectual standards", and yet you're writing within this very site and community. so what if it doesn't offer standards, that's not this site was made and run for. it's about gaming and the community it has. and when things don't go just and fair within the gaming industry, of course we're going to say something. whether the "standards" are present or not. and how do you know we won't be taken seriously? won't writing these blogs, contacting whoever needs to be contacted and generally making some type of stand show any type of responSibility? we aren't sitting on our asses and saying "eh, they banned a game, big deal." because that's not the point, the point is we're being told and babysat into what is and isn't good for us. even if the game was about killing as many kittens as possible; of course i'm not going to buy that game, but at least i have the choice.

and you're good at making stupid comebacks to others. i might have to get lessons from you sometime.
Michael Buckley's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 04:08
Michael Buckley
Personally, I'm not that worried about Manhunt 2. It's not just that I don't like care for the game. The BBFC tried to pull the same crap with Carmageddon, they were challenged in court, and the eventually lost.

All in all, I think that's the advantage of having a governmental ratings board. With a "voluntary" system, you can complain to the ratings board all you want, but in the end, it's not governmental censorship, and a developer or publisher's only recourse is to reject the rating, leaving the game unrated, and thus banned from most major retailers. With a governmental system, if a game is banned, you can challenge the banishment in a court of law, where, depending on your country, it is unlikely to be upheld. I am not a lawyer, but from what I remember, in the United States, the content would be subject to "community standards." For a nationwide release, I don't think anyone would have a problem pointing to the similarities between Manhunt 2 and torture porn, which seems to have no problems living up to "community standards."

I've always been against the ratings system, but last year I saw This Film is Not Yet Rated and it really got me riled up. I came up with a number of reforms I would like to see to the ratings system, the first of which was, in the United States, changing the currently "voluntary" industry-run process into a compulsory government process. These ideas may or may not be appropriate for what Games for Gamers is trying to do, but I figured I would put them out there in case they would be useful:

1. Eliminate the difference between the M and AO ratings. This will have two results: First, parents will, if properly educated that an M-Rated game may contain some all-out Hot Coffee, will be forced to actually review the content of an M-rated game before letting their kids play it. Second, it will eliminate the industry or government's ability to "protect" consenting adults from this content.

I think this is really one of the key messages that a movement like this should focus on. The majority of the market is comprised of adults, and the notion that these games contain content which harms adults is absolutely ludicrous. Although I tend to prefer games which can be enjoyed by most of the family, if I choose to pick up a violent game, that's my business, not anyone else's.

2. My favorite idea, and perhaps the most controversial, is a label for game casing which reads "This game was rated by XXXX under protest by the developer. See reverse side for details. For more information visit RatedUnderProtest.com" I created some early mockups using slightly-crunched white Helvetica on a black background, to emulate the ESRB's style. This would be done to expose the hypocrisy of the current system which calls itself "voluntary." The reverse side of the case would contain a box much like the ESRB content descriptors which point out why the developer protests the rating system, ranging from "Ratings have become a form of marketing," to "Ratings are cost-prohibitive to indie developers," or whatever their beef with the ratings system was. The Web site RatedUnderProtest.com would contain a list of all games which were rated under protest, their descriptors, and an explanation of the descriptors. The site would offer hosting or links to externally hosted letters written by the developers explaining in their own words why they dislike the current ratings system, as well as the names of any of the development team which did not protest the rating, in case the development team is not unanimous in its protest.

Of course, this would require resources, and more importantly, support from inside the industry. As someone with neither the resources to fund such a project, nor the contacts within the industry, I did not pursue it further. I figured it would be much worse for the cause to launch the program and then let the site languish with no support, as it would then seem that the industry is completely happy with the system, which as far as I know, may be the case.

3. Standardize ratings across all media. It's completely insane for TV, Movies and games to have different ratings systems. As much as I don't like the MPAA's system for various reasons, they have spent decades educating the populace on their system, and the American public understands it. I know each industry has invested in the trademarks of their ratings, but I think these organizations need to decide what is more useful: doing things their own way, or working together to create a system which is useful to parents across the country.

Overall, I guess I'd like to see the government take over the ratings system and institute just a few broad distinctions: "Everyone" for things like Sesame Street, "kids" for things like the TV ratings' Y7, "Teens," and "Adults," which would be like a combined M/AO/R/NC-17/TV-MA. Parents could then rely on private ratings services like www.capalert.com (I disagree with their ratings, but if parents want to use them, that's their business) for more fine-grained ratings.
Gemsi's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 04:15
Gemsi
Once again, you have my full support.
Gowans007's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 05:27
Gowans007
Do this in the UK and I am there!
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 05:35
Jim Sterling
dprim: You may call us obnoxious and whatever, but millions of readers do not. Strength of numbers and unity within the entire gaming community are what matters, not the erroneous (in my view) opinion of a few individuals.

Nearly everyone else: I'm loving most of the replies here so far, guys. Your support is very encouraging and it means we can't fail in our mission, because if we have, we've let you all down. We'll let you all know as soon as we have developments.
jdubya93's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 05:38
jdubya93
Sounds good, im in.
Brandwag's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 06:06
Brandwag
Got your back guys!

Rockstar should make the files available on their site for download rapage ... for a small charge ofc :P
Garbz's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 06:06
Garbz
Awesome stuff.

I'm with you all the way on this guys.
SpartanElite's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 06:21
SpartanElite
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=11440097

This is where I found out. You have some more support, I guess.
Boris Lugosi's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 06:43
Boris Lugosi
Where do I sign up for my GFG decoder ring?

It's on like Donkey Kong!
wardrox's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 06:57
wardrox
*Hugs David Houghton & Jim Sterling*
UncleRico's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 07:02
UncleRico
Uncle Rico is back baby, and I want in!
Mxyzptlk's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 07:04
Mxyzptlk
@ Michael Buckley:

Normally I shudder at any suggestion that the government take control over deciding who can watch what, but you make some damn fine points. And This Film Is Not Yet Rated is an excellent example of the problems with an industry run rating system. There's no accountability, and no real constitutional protection as a result.
bhive01's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 07:13
bhive01
Based upon what people have been saying it seems really difficult as to know who to "blame" for the ban of Manhunt 2. In the US it got an AO rating from the ESRB. They did their job and gave the game a rating. But, did they rate it excessively? Should it have been rated M but got bumped up for political reasons?

Nintendo and Sony have stated publicly that they won't license an AO game. Why? What about an adult orientated game that is rated for adults is bad? How do they honestly think it would hurt their bottom line? Wouldn't the controversy stir up more "publicity?" Conversely, would they (Nintendo especially) lose their "family friendly" public perception?

@ Mike Buckley,

I've liked the idea of a uniform rating scale for all forms of media for some time. Go with the MPAA scale and there will be less confusion overall. G = E, PG = Still E, PG-13 = T, R = M. Is there really any need for anything higher? If you're deemed Mature shouldn't you be able to buy, view, play what you want?

They can keep the little descriptions. Animated violence, etc. Those are fairly useful.
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 07:29
Jim Sterling
bhive01: It's very easy to know who to blame for the banning of Manhunt 2 -

Everyone.

Everyone everywhere, including ourselves, for not giving games the same the dignity and respect that they deserve. That's the heart of GfG right there, giving the videogame industry the respect it deserves so that something like this isn't handled in such a sneering and reactionary fashion next time.
Nocturnal XVIII's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:11
Nocturnal XVIII
So will there be a seperate G4G site coming? I can see this getting huge.
As Pdarkness pointed out in Australia games have been getting banned pretty regularly here. So in a way I'm almost glad this has happened. Because it's a big game that amny people were looking forward to the issue is getting alot more attention. Which can only be a good thing.

Fight the godd fight guys! I'm with you all the way!

ShinAmano's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:13
ShinAmano
I am in...censorship on any level is bad.
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:16
Jim Sterling
Yes, dedicated webspace is on the cards for this.
BigPopaGamer's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:39
BigPopaGamer
Sounds good. I'm in on this one. Wasn't a huge fan of the firs Manhunt but I'm in total support of Jim and Dave on this issue.
Boris Lugosi's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:48
Boris Lugosi
Gamers for Gaming on StuffWeLike.com!
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:51
Jim Sterling
Fantastic.

The good word is spreading. I fucking love the gaming community right now. :D
Boris Lugosi's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 08:53
Boris Lugosi
@ Michael Buckley:

Anybody ever tell you you're a smart sunuvabitch? Rated Under Protest is genius. If only the console developers would support the games. *sigh*
BluDesign's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 09:05
BluDesign
Where can I buy my legal defense fund T-shirt?

Good luck guys, you've got my support.
Sloth's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 09:52
Sloth
When I have some free time, I might write to Keith Vaz (the UK's Jack Thompson figure) as I used to live next-door to his constituency. In a similar fashion to how Jim addressed the BBFC chap, obviously, and not the swear fest that I would like. Hopefully he'll take more time to read a letter than touch something remotely electronic
CypherVR's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 10:36
CypherVR
Big Brother is watching you..masterbate
dprim3's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 10:59
dprim3
@reeper: Unfortunately I can't give you a proper responce because I'm about to go to school. But about the first thing you said, the reason I still go here is because I'm not searching for intellectual or moral content. I'm looking for simple information on video games and don't take it too seriously, which is what it's good for. If this project does happen to go well, I wouldn't mind.

Also, uh, thanks? I think my skill in making stupid comebacks may lie in the fact that they're not stupid and actually refer to an error the person made, as opposed to just going "You're gay!" or something.
Joe Burling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 11:05
Joe Burling
I suggest we write up a pamphlet and distribute it to the PTA.

If the PTA distributes the pamphlet to all of its outlets across the country, word will spread about the importance of the ESRB and the parents involvement when purchasing video games for their children.

Every little bit helps.
THE ROADIE's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 12:52
THE ROADIE
I'm behind you guys 100% Also was reading the metro at work and some pansies who never touched games wrote in and started spouting shite about how games are worse than film because the gamer is controlling the characters in games. Made me mad.
Xandros's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 13:09
Xandros
110% behind you guys. Gamers for Gaming for the win.
Papapishu's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 13:13
Papapishu
Your ideas intruigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

We definately need to extend it beyond the gaming community: Online pettions are simply masterbation.
zardoz's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 13:17
zardoz
I have so many suggestions but I will just suggest a key one, we have to expose their lack of understanding of an interactive artform, it seems to me they are banning something they personally don't like, then using it's status as a videogame as a reason. If we convincingly and thoroughly seperate and explain game presentation from game interaction we will win, because game interaction is not the problem here and yet game interaction is 100% getting the blame, the only reason Manhunt 2 is being banned is beacuse it's a game.

It's like the government banning people using their hands in an attempt to stop people smoking, it's the cigerettes that are the problem not the process of using your hands to smoke. The BBFC's ban is equally ludicrous, they are banning a form of interaction instead of banning the violence, then the nest obvious question is: But if they are really concerned with the violence then why not ban so many other digital media? The interactive medium is being wrongly accused of something it has nothing to do with, and it is being persecuted by people who have no understanding of it.

A side by side comparison of two entirely different games, let's say a Mario 2D scroller alongside Gears Of War. This comparison is designed to demonstrate that regardless of visual presentation or content, a gamer gets exactly the same sense of achievement when making progress through an interactive medium. The point here is that a gamer violently killing someone in a game provides the same psychological sense of achievement as a gamer jumping on a cartooney turtle. Gamers play games for the satisfying sense of progress being made through interaction. The way this interaction is presented then falls into the category of taste and tone raging from kids to adults, but to suggest that a presentation with adult tones is somehow worse because you can interact with it, is a fundamentally flawed understanding of what a game is and how it functions at an emtional and psychological level.

It's important that the BBFC is pounded for their misunderstanding of an interactive art form. If they are banning Manhunt 2 for it's presenation and tone, then they have to ban so many other forms of digital entertainment. They know this, so they try and throw in the tacked on "but in a game you take part" bollocks. This is why clarifying exactly what game interaction is, and how it is almost universally aplicable to all types of games, for all ages regardless of tone or visual presentation will destroy their ill thought out argument.

In short, they are in actual fact banning Manhunt 2 because they don't like it's tone or presentation of violence, they have allowed a personal dislike of something to colour their judgement, yet I'm assuming that the very same people also dislike Saw, yet they managed to withhold their personal likes & dislikes because it happened to be a film. This is unjustifiable and this
is where the BBFC's argument falls, and this is where we have to hit them with all the available evidence.
nectarine's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 13:47
nectarine
I'm so happy you guys are starting this. Hopefully Australia can latch onto this too and final get 18+ rating for games.
DanGale's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 13:55
DanGale
I neither have the time nor energy to make a rant post, but needless to say, as a UK gamer I'm in. I have no interest inplaying this game, nor in Rockstar as a developer. However this is completely ridicuous and needs to be stopped. How long is it before we are all arrested due to "thoughtcrime".
Dugan's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 15:04
Dugan
The issue here is the disparate treatment of games with other mediums. Its the same thing that happened at Slamdance. SCMRPG! may or may not have been artistically defensible, I think it was, more so than Manhunt 2 probably. At least it had deranged sense of consience about it, Manhunt doesn't seem to have any kind of layered experiential qualities, just repetition. Whatever, lets fight this fight.

Or peace the peace, thats how I'd do it: http://kingludic.blogspot.com/2007/06/geeks-freaks-dorks-nerds-unite.html

Michael Buckley's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 15:27
Michael Buckley
Now that I have had a good sleep and am much more awake than when I wrote my first post, I would like to add a detail that I forgot.

As I alluded to when talking about the Rated Under Protest idea, support from the industry is important to a movement like this. That is not to say that gamer support is not important, but if Rockstar backs down, it makes a movement like this much harder.

There are some here who have suggested that we are all buying into Rockstar's hype machine. I can't deny that. Rockstar is one of my least favorite developers (in that I find their games to be fantastically boring), and they are very good at riding controversy to their advantage. Yet, they are one of the few companies out there truly pushing the envelope and challenging the ratings system. Even if our motivations are different, our goals are the same, and I have no problem supporting the in this.

But Rockstar and Take-Two have just delayed the release of Manhunt 2. Although the BBFC claims that they do not believe that reworking the game will provide different results, as they find the "tone" of the game to be offensive, my guess is that Rockstar is going to try to get an M rating in the United States. As I mentioned before, I don't have any contacts within the industry, so I can't be sure that this is the case, but if Rockstar does tone down the game, they will be handing a small victory to organizations like the BBFC by implicitly agreeing with the notion that these organizations need to protect adults from unsettling content.

Rockstar is a large company in the position to fight this. Just as when Digg users demanded that Digg stop removing the AACS code from their site, we must demand, as customers of Rockstar, that they not back down. Turn this into a campaign for the people. Run advertisements explaining how Rockstar doesn't believe it is the job of anyone to decide what adults can and can not view.

One of the things that the ESRB needs to understand is that Rockstar has the power to reject the AO rating. It is a voluntary system after all. They could release the game unrated. And while this would ban it from many retail establishments, it would not ban it from online sales, even to minors. And if Rockstar put a free Demo of the game online, they would be under no obligation to prevent minors from downloading it, since it is not rated. Of course, this would stir government outcry and new scrutiny on the ratings system, and the industry as a whole, which is exactly what the ESRB is designed to prevent.

There is an episode of South Park which dealt with the censorship of those comics which depicted the Muslim prophet Muhammad. One of the characters made a great speech about how everyone should stick up for free speech by drawing more comics with Muhammad in them. In a similar vein, we need to send Rockstar a clear message that we want to buy their original release of Manhunt 2, not some toned down version designed to appease censors. Hell, I wasn't planning on buying Manhunt 2, but if Rockstar and Take-Two stick to their guns, and release only an uncut version, even if it is PC-only. I probably won't play it, but I will buy it. As gamers, we need to send the message that we will not buy Manhunt 2 if Rockstar and/or Take-Two capitulate to the censors.
Rancor's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 15:48
Rancor
Man, microsoft would be the fucking win if the say " A0+ no fucking problem" and if they only sell it in "specialty shops" even better, let adult games spill forth from this shit. Pheonix down FTW
neveranything's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 16:00
neveranything
@Michael Buckley

I completely agree with what you've said, but if we're going to boycott a neutered version of Manhunt2, then we need to get the word out now, and in BIG print. We need to pass it on to everyone we know who has been planning on buying the game to boycott, and anyone who reserved the game to cancel their reserve.

On the same token, we also need to get the adult community at large moving now to buy Manhunt2 if it does come out uncensored.

This is our big chance to show the game market, ESRB, and everyone else what the GAMERS want, so lets drop some balls and get moving!
The New Blueguy's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 18:34
The New Blueguy
Hey David/Jim,

Even as a Canadian, I am so glad you guys are doing this. This has gone way beyond Manhunt 2. I really feel this is a great cause and I will do everything I can to help. Is it possible you guys could make a an official website for the movement? I was already thinking of handing out flyers with the website address and a mission statement type thingy from you guys. Also, a very big television station here in Toronto, has a segment they air called "Speaker's Corner" where ordinary people can just talk about life and society and there are also consumer blog type segments on across the network that they run. Maybe I could try to get some air time with them and discuss the movement on TV? I mean I know I'm just a 24 year-old Event Security Guard from Toronto, Canada but I figure someone's gotta see it... right?

Hey, who knows where this will go... Maybe we can save Manhunt 2. I mean, don't get it twisted. The fault isn't on Sony or Nintendo or even Microsoft. These are privately owned companies that can regulate the use of their products as they wish no matter how much money we pump into their businesses year after year. The true "beef" I have is with the ESRB and even the BBFC. Before I'd even read your articles with them, I'd been doing research on my own and I'd also found their statements hypocritical. Especially, how the BBFC contradicted it's own research and I feel, completely ignored its own findings when rating Manhunt 2.

Patricia Vance of the ESRB seemed to dodge your questions and point to the UK ban as a scapegoat for the ESRB's reasoning. Besides, that after all the statements I'd read over the last few days from various officials, all it seems anyone is doing is pointing the finger at the next guy and saying, "Well, they banned it too." That's ridiculous.

Whether you live in the UK, North America, Europe, and anywhere else, do we as a society of mature adult gamers, gamers in general, and more importantly consumers, not deserve the right to ensure that competent individuals, whether by private organization or government body are overseeing these sorts of things?

And you see this is why I have no qualms with Sony, Nintendo, or even Microsoft. They are simply upholding their respective company policies. All I ask of the ESRB, BBFC, IFCO, and any other ratings board out there... Give us a ratings system that works for everyone involved and that can policed and monitored effectively.

The AO rating in North America means nothing as of now if no one supports it, and there is no in between. The difference is a mere one year period. You say you work to keep games like Manhunt 2 out of the hands of children. Which in no way was the intended audience. But you do realize that by giving Rockstar no opportunity or choice but to edit the game down to a Mature rating, you are doing exactly what you said you wanted to prevent. You allow 17 year olds to walk into a store and legally purchase such games.

Why not slightly expand the M rating content by just a bit and scratch the AO rating. That way anything else would simply not be acceptable. Because that's all it means now anyway except that none of the companies allow it should it be anything more than M.

As far as the BBFC, why not have an in between rating instead of jumping from MA15+ to 18+? Because serious there is a lot of leeway between the two and I think it would send a message of which games are for children and which are not.

But overall, I think as an industry we simply need a better means of enforcement. Enforcement is the answer not back-door censorship and banning.

I wish you guys the best of luck.
David Houghton 's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 20:37
David Houghton
zardoz: As usual, we are in complete agreement. Don't worry, I'm going to hit that argument hard. There's actually quite a lot of the stuff you mentioned in the BBFC's gaming report, which they're choosing to ignore. Rest assured, I'm going to go through it with a fine-toothed comb over the weekend. The content and the medium have to be separated, otherwise games are never going to be rated fairly.

Michael: Damn right. As much as we have to campaign for fair gaming ratings, we have to boycott panderings to an unfair system just as hard.

BlueGuy: Please, do whatever you can in your own ways in your own community. What you're suggesting sounds incredible, and myself and Jim are seriously touched by everything everyone's offering to do. Do it. Do everything you can. We're honoured that we've got people like you behind us.
The New Blueguy's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 21:57
The New Blueguy
You have my word. I will do whatever it takes.
bunnyrabbit2's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/22/2007 23:39
bunnyrabbit2
You guys have just rocked my face off with this stuff. I had to pick my face up off of the floor because it was rocked so hard. I already know who my MP is and have spoken to him a few times as well. Even though he is a conservative I think he might listen to a potential voter (even if I don't vote). When do we get T-Shirts? Seriously we need a logo and some T-Shirts. Plus, it gives means I can buy something I want when I get some much needed new clothes. I am currently working on my own little gaming community dontcamp.com to get them in on this too.
The New Blueguy's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/23/2007 10:02
The New Blueguy
Hey guys,

Just thought I'd write back with some progress. I just sent off a request to City TV here in Toronto, to hopefully get some air time to discuss our movement. Here is the e-mail I sent them in it's entirety:

Hello,

My name is David Dandie. I am a 24 year-old lifelong gamer from right here in Toronto. I'm quite certain by now, that everyone has heard about the recent banning in the UK and Ireland by the BBFC and IFCO respectively and blacklisting by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) with an Adults Only rating, of the upcoming video game from Grand Theft Auto creators, Rockstar Games, Manhunt 2.

Now, hopefully you'll hear me out when I ask this, but I'd like to request an opportunity to discuss this topic on your news program. I represent Gamers for Gaming, a movement of mature adult gamers, founded by David Houghton and Jim Sterling of Destructoid.com, that believe in our right to choice. We are not against the ESRB, the BBFC, IFCO, ESA, ELSPA or any other ratings board or government body.

Nor are we against Sony Corporation, Nintendo Co. or even Microsoft. We respect their right as privately owned corporations to enforce their respective policies on their platforms as they see fit, in the disallowing of Adult Only rated content. Although we are willing, if they are also willing, to discuss policy adjustment.

We also believe in rights for families and children to be able to enjoy interactive entertainment in the safety of their homes without fear of access or exposure to either explicit or inappropriate content. However, we realize as consumers, that there is an adult market for games and wish to broaden the scope of current rating systems into an acceptable format for everyone.

We believe that the answer to the problems within the gaming community and also the gaming industry is not about back-door censorship or banning of material, but the proper and full enforcement of current policies, rules and guidelines with an adjustment made to satisfy everyone.

All I ask is that you consider this request and allow me to speak my piece. I have no malice nor aggression towards any of the companies or organizations mentioned regardless of recent events, and I submit that this has gone far beyond a single game. This is about our right as consumers to choose.

Thank you for listening and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best regards,

David Dandie
Representative, Gamers for Gaming


So there it is. I hope you guys don't me calling myself a representative :P I just wanted them to see that we are an organized movement. Hopefully, they'll listen.

Gamers 4 Life!!
Jim Sterling's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/23/2007 11:14
Jim Sterling
I just caught this. Excellent stuff. Even if they don't pick up on it yet, when the time comes, they'll be glad of that email. Anything that puts the word out. Thanks for your support.
The New Blueguy's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/23/2007 13:31
The New Blueguy
No problem
David Houghton 's Avatar - Comment posted on 06/23/2007 15:33
David Houghton
Mind that you call yourself a representative of Gamers For Gaming? If you're writing e-mails like that, I'm proud that you're calling yourself one.
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